Apoks in the Nightlands

[Blackwater Sniper]

Thought about having an Apok track someone from Wormwood through a random rift to the Nightlands.

I know everyday people are not supernatural beings, but minions of Ba'al and other Nightlords are a different story.
Would the Apok do regular damage to evil minions in their façade, but double damage when in morphus form?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Thought about having an Apok track someone from Wormwood through a random rift to the Nightlands.

I know everyday people are not supernatural beings, but minions of Ba'al and other Nightlords are a different story.
Would the Apok do regular damage to evil minions in their façade, but double damage when in morphus form?

Rephrasing so it makes sense...."Would the Apok do regular damage to Nightbane in their façade, but double damage when in morphus form?"
If the Apok does double damage to the SN then this is correct that they would only do the standard damage to a NB in their facade and double damage to NB in their Morphus.

[Blackwater Sniper]

Thought about having an Apok track someone from Wormwood through a random rift to the Nightlands.

I know everyday people are not supernatural beings, but minions of Ba'al and other Nightlords are a different story.
Would the Apok do regular damage to evil minions in their façade, but double damage when in morphus form?

Rephrasing so it makes sense...."Would the Apok do regular damage to Nightbane in their façade, but double damage when in morphus form?"
If the Apok does double damage to the SN then this is correct that they would only do the standard damage to a NB in their facade and double damage to NB in their Morphus.

The Apok only does double damage to supernatural evil creatures. If a façade is not considered supernatural, the Apok would do normal damage to that minion. When the minion changes into it's Morphus form, I believe it automatically becomes a supernatural creature.

Are minions of a Nightlords always considered supernatural, in façade and morphus form?

[Axelmania]

Are minions of a Nightlords always considered supernatural, in façade and morphus form?

Whether or not a Nightbane is a minion of the Nightlords seems immaterial to me, you can be evil-aligned without serving them or even possibly good-aligned while serving them (just real confused)

The question is just whether you're a supernatural being not just in morphus (obvious) but also in facade.

That's important for whether or not you can be detected too.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Maybe you didn't pick it up from what I said. So I will say it blatantly.
NB are not SN in their facade.

Also, if the NB (see being specific about whom I am talking about) is not Evil, then the Apok does not do double damage to them.

However, most of the evil NB are not minions of anyone. Remember that the NL's hate the NB and tend to kill them off before asking them to join them as a minoin. So your premise was flawed in the OP.

Now having said that, there are SN beings that are minions of the NLs. Most of these will be evil, but they do not have two bodies like the NB do.

[Axelmania]

facades not being SN was a lot easier to swallow back when they were SDC, got a little weird in Dark Conversions, I think tehy're MDC even in facade now?

[drewkitty ~..~]

NB facades have never been MDC in Rifts.
Why are you bringing up this totally debunked idea that was debunked back before the NB core book came out?
Are you trying to start an argument out of the void of space?
Or are you just posting w/o really knowing what you are talking about?

[Axelmania]

NB facades have never been MDC in Rifts.
Why are you bringing up this totally debunked idea that was debunked back before the NB core book came out?

Wait: even before it came out as "Nightspawn" CJ already told people online prior to 1995 that Nightbane in human face wouldn't be MDC in Rifts?

I'd be very interested in finding out more about that, sounds pretty interesting.

Are you trying to start an argument out of the void of space?
Or are you just posting w/o really knowing what you are talking about?

I rechecked "Dark Conversions" and I believe I misremembered the new healing abilities which Facades gain in Rifts per pg 161:
"can regenerate damage at the rate of 10 S.D.C./Hit Points per melee in Facade"

I must've filed that away as "they got better" and that somehow morphed into "become MDC" over time. Memories do that sometimes.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The NS core book never gave the Façade supernaturalness, so the same is true for NB core book. The SNness was only given to the Morphus of the char.

This question on whether the NB's Facade was SN was answered with finality in the official Q&A articles in the rifters.
The RDC conformed to the official statement by limiting the SN attributes to the char's M #3 page 161 and restates this when it says the Facade's attributes are NOT SN on the next page.
Along with these texts that the NB in their F can be atomized by MD attacks.
In the NBWB1 is states that the Facade only has SDC/HP.

[Axelmania]

I think the first hint of CJ wanting to give the Facade healing powers was possibly Between the Shadows 142 "Nightbanes and Special Enhancements" where even the Facade would reject bionics despite having no listed healing factor / bio-regen different from human.

2D6 hours (avg 7h or 420 minutes or 25200 seconds) to expel an implant compared to 2D4 melees (~5 rounds or 75 seconds) works out to 1/336 the amount.

10/15s is like 2/3s... 3s*336=1008 seconds... I can halve that to make a "1 per" rate of 504 seconds, or 6 minutes (480 seconds) plus 24 seconds.

If we rounded that up to 1 sdc per 10 minutes, that'd be 6x as faster as the 1 sdc per hour that most Dopplegangers heal at.

One trick I did think of for healing your facade just now: if you had Splittin Image and Sharing the Flesh, couldn't you have your Morphus use STF on your split Facade?

debunked back before the NB core book came out

Still haven't really explained this comment, did you mean before Dark Conversions came out?

The NS core book never gave the Façade supernaturalness,
so the same is true for NB core book.

Same in respect to... Rifts?

The SNness was only given to the Morphus of the char.

NB85 "Some of these supernatural abilities are only available to the character when in Morphus" implies there are supernatural abilities you could use in Facade, which seems like "SNness" to me, even if not to the extent of being detectable as "supernatural being"

(kind of like how a Shadow Warlock also has "supernatural abilities" if that is how we describe Talents, but wouldn't detect as supernatural or count as that when stuff had damage multipliers vs supernatural)

I think the idea that you could qualify as supernatural even in Facade is based on how one might interpret NB87's "Supernatural Senses":

sense the presence of other Nightbane
(but not other supernatural creatures).
know whether or not that person is a member of his race,
regardless of the person's current form

The use of "other" implies "of same class", which implies still supernatural in either form.

Ability 3 "Nightbane have supernatural strength and endurance" is something I would say WOULD apply to the Facade as worded there ... if not for it being cancelled out on the right column with "Facade's attributes are NOT supernatural." They should've worded it "Morphuses have SNPS and SNPE and healing" basically. Dark Conversions 161 seems to have recognized this and added "but only in the morphus" to #3.

That's the problem which prompts the confusion I think: #3 was written with just the Morphus in mind but said "Nightbane" so "the letter" would be you could always heal 10SDC/melee even in Facade, but the "spirit" would be that you don't heal faster in Facade.

In the NBWB1 is states that the Facade only has SDC/HP.

Looks like they used to get a static 10 MDC/round regen in Morphus which got changed to 2D6+2 (average 9) on DC 161.

Also the new "only humans can be" restriction on DC 162, while BTS 142 allowed "any non supernatural humanoid" to be the Facade (weirdly even Atlanteans, with their own 'immunity to transformation' not applying to the Becoming)

BTS 142 interestingly defines "supernatural race" to be fulfilled by merely having 100 SDC or ANY amount of MDC, which is a looser definition than I've ever seen used in Rifts. The 'supernatural race' definition clearly is a wider net than 'supernatural being'.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Have you looked in the official Q&As in the rifters? If you had you would know that this question has been officially answered. Please expand your search area to include these areas which you are now informed there are answers to find.

[Axelmania]

there are SN beings that are minions of the NLs.
Most of these will be evil, but they do not have two bodies like the NB do.

This makes me realize: there is a situation when you can be "in Facade" and still be "supernatural" .. Splittin Image, since you're sort of in BOTH forms

You can only use this talent while in morphus, so it makes me wonder if just in this case both forms might count as supernatural (due to the Morphus being a sort of 'wraparound'), or if it would still just be the Morphus half which qualifies

[drewkitty ~..~]

there are SN beings that are minions of the NLs.
Most of these will be evil, but they do not have two bodies like the NB do.

This makes me realize: there is a situation when you can be "in Facade" and still be "supernatural" .. Splittin Image, since you're sort of in BOTH forms

You can only use this talent while in morphus, so it makes me wonder if just in this case both forms might count as supernatural (due to the Morphus being a sort of 'wraparound'), or if it would still just be the Morphus half which qualifies

You are arguing to generate a win, even after you have been shown to not have been correct.

The Facade was never SN, even when the core book was still the NightSpawn Core book. *explains the comments that had Axe stumped.*

The short of it....
McFarlane, the creator of the 'Spawn' comic books, sued PB with a copyright infringement lawsuit, even thou PB had the copyright to the name 'nightspawn'. Even thou, PB change the name of the game to not have to spend the time and money to fight off the lawsuit. The 1st printing of the NS core book still had editing errors where nightspawn hadn't been changed to Nightbane.

If you want more details you can ask around or do a search for the details.

[Axelmania]

You are arguing to generate a win, even after you have been shown to not have been correct.

I definitely misremembered some stuff, so I'll reiterate my errors as I recognize them once again:

1) my memory of Nighties (Spawn/Bane whatev) being able to sense each other while in Facade made me think they had some kind of "scent" (metaphorical) to them, but obviously it's not a "supernatural" scent but some kind of... paranormal-adjacent one that only other NB can smell? I'll need to go re-check WB4 to see how that interacted with Athanatos

2) my memory of Nighties healing at an advanced rate (AFAIK only explicitly mentioned in Dark Conversions) made me think of the Facade as unusual and durable (which it seems to be for some reason in Rifts) which somehow wrongly crossed over into "becomes MDC"

I've dropped the idea of the Facade "standard operating procedure" being supernatural.

My only question is: when you are in Morphus, activate "Splitting Image" and divide into 2 bodies (Morphus and Facade) if it's technically "pure facade" anymore.

1) you can only use Splittin Image while in Morphus
2) the facade half is presumably "using" this Talent too
3) ergo, perhaps both halves are still technically the Morphus?

The Facade was never SN, even when the core book was still the NightSpawn Core book.
*explains the comments that had Axe stumped.*
The short of it....
McFarlane, the creator of the 'Spawn' comic books, sued PB with a copyright infringement lawsuit, even thou PB had the copyright to the name 'nightspawn'.
Even thou, PB change the name of the game to not have to spend the time and money to fight off the lawsuit.
The 1st printing of the NS core book still had editing errors where nightspawn hadn't been changed to Nightbane.
If you want more details you can ask around or do a search for the details.

I know all about the name change, I didn't really need that explained.

My Q was what you meant by your comment "debunked back before the NB core book came out"

If you mean that the prior publication which debunked this was the "NS core book" then okay: that's easy to understand.

In this case it wasn't "before the core book" as I first interpreted, but rather "the first edition of the core book before the name change".

But I'm wondering what you mean by "debunk" though.

Usually the use of 'debunk' refers to actively highlighting a misunderstanding and then answering it.

Was there a page in the core book which emphasized "Facades are not supernatural! Only the Morphus!" ?

It sounds more like the Rifter FAQ was the "debunking" (and Rifters didn't come out until after the NS>NB shift) whereas core book was just "lack of evidence but didn't dwell on the issue".

That or it's in some of the fluff I've forgotten.

The NS/NB sensing ability sounds like Facade could be supernatural so I think our idea that it isn't is probably derived from Hounds' writeup since Hounds can sense supernatural stuff but there was something about them not being able to sense the Facade. Yeah that's it, pg 162:

Nightbane in Morphus form have a powerful supernatural "signature" which the Hounds can follow in a manner similar to the way Nightbane can sense the presence of others of their kind.
..
Supernatural Tracking: Can smell supernatural creatures and track them

As Hounds are "Hounds are evil, supernatural predators" they could probably track each other too, makes me wonder if eventually high numbers might cause 'scent confusion' of some sort, which might explain why packs of hounds are kept to moderate numbers?

Like maybe when they travel in packs they might spread out to cover a larger area so as to interfere less with each other's abilities.

Or maybe there's some kind of implied ability to intentionally filter out scents of other Nightlord minions when you want to focus on other SNCs?

= = =

probably another important thing is pg 128's level one spell "Sense Nightbane" seems like it would be able to sense Facades since "works like the natural Nightbane ability to
sense others of their kind" which CAN target facades... so in theory you might outfit a Hound Master with a Talisman of that spell (prob too valuable to give to normal hounds) for situations where they lose a NB in a crowd and want to figure if they're within 200ft, if so estimate rough location within 30ft, know if there's more than one.


That's one disadvantage for counter-intelligence, because if a NB in Facade had a "Talisman of Sense Evil" that has merely a 90ft range, so they probably won't sense the Hound Master before the Hound Master senses them. On the plus side, it does last twice the time.

Sense PPE could be better w/ 120ft range but then you're down to same duration as Sense Nightbane

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
My only question is: when you are in Morphus, activate "Splitting Image" and divide into 2 bodies (Morphus and Facade) if it's technically "pure facade" anymore.

1) you can only use Splittin Image while in Morphus
2) the facade half is presumably "using" this Talent too
3) ergo, perhaps both halves are still technically the Morphus?

...snip

2) you are misframing the idea. The person/the NB/the character/soul that is using the talent not any Body.

1) It is just that the "Key" that lets them use the talent is being in their morphus. Sort of like how in HU with some of the heroes have to 'transform' into their hero outfit/body to use their powers.

[Axelmania]

person/char/soul uses Talent sure, but it's only usable in a certain form

so basically if you're in Facade you need to do Becoming 1ast, then go Splitting Image

but at that point it's prob intended your Morphus half is the only one sensable

interesting Q: perhaps Morphus could use Share the Flesh on Facade to heal it?

[drewkitty ~..~]

interesting Q: perhaps Morphus could use Share the Flesh on Facade to heal it?

Would I allow it? Maybe. It would be the only way to transfer any damage to the other side of the becoming.