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I just received my copy today. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, just a flip through. But, what I see looks GREAT!

KEEP US POSTED PLEASE

ZINO wrote:KEEP US POSTED PLEASE

I am also curious. Is it the haven of goodness we all expect/want or is there the evil lurking presence we all didn't want to see.
Are the new OCC "new"?

Details are of course not needed nor requested but a better feel of the book would be great. I might order it depending on the info I hear

I just got my copy today and after a quick skim, I do enjoy it. I'm eager to eventually sit down and not just read through the whole thing, but compare it to the Rifter articles about Lazlo I also really enjoyed and see how compatible they all are.

I will say the section on Lazlo's relationship with other kingdoms/etc was very eye-opening regarding the number of societies on Rifts Earth! This section spans several pages, and that's before it gets to Lazlo's dimensional connections!

It seems like a solid book, though I wish it didn't set aside some aspects of the city as things that will get fleshed out in later books - we all know better than that!

I also really enjoyed what the final page sets up, and the foreshadowing in the intro for it.

Hopefully, we do get the follow-up book(s). Sometimes we do (China 2), sometimes we don't (Australia 2), so we'll have to see what happens.

Greetings everyone. What follows will be my spoiler filled review of the Lazlo Raw book. When reading the book and when writing this review, I have kept in mind that this is only a raw, preview edition and not the finalized version. Any part of it is subject to change for the final release version. Before I get into the spoiler filled version of this review, I will do a short, non-spoiler version.

First, the book is layed out in a logical manner. It starts with the origins of Lazlo, progressing to its current state, everything from climate to political parties. I would argue that the “Notable Institutions” such as the various universities, should come after the details on the city itself but that’s more a matter of preference and I acknowledge it could be argued either way.

Second, the book does cover, to varying degrees of detail, just about every subject associated with Lazlo. I will say that some areas didn’t receive enough detail but we have been told that more books will be coming out to cover those areas.

My overall impression, keeping in mind that this isn’t the finished product, is disappointment. While I appreciate the layout of the book and understand that certain subjects will be covered in greater detail in later books, what we did get was…lackluster. The book contradicts not only itself but previously published rules and setting material. It’s as if the writer failed to read or read and ignored, previous relevant material. I won’t say that you should or shouldn’t pass on the raw edition and wait for the finished product. I will say that don’t buy the raw and expect it to be remotely close to fulfilling your expectations.

Now for the spoiler filled version. From this point on, I will be speaking in specifics rather than generalities. If you do not wish to know them, stop here and content yourself with the non-spoiler review from above.




Bottomline up front, this book is inconsistent and self contradictory. In the following paragraphs I will explain in detail those inconsistencies and contradictions. It also fails to really consider what a society and nation-state would look like with access to high technology, magic and inter-dimensional travel. It tries but most of those efforts I will classify as failure to fully imagine the possibilities, to take them to their logical outcome or the possibility was considered but poorly executed.

As I stated above, the book begins with the origins of Lazlo. In the very beginning, as in well before it ever became known as Lazlo, it started as a NEMA survivor camp. Security was provided a NEMA Urban Command Post. I appreciated the tie in with Chaos Earth and this would fit nicely with the RUE revision about “Nemans” being the saviors of humanity during the Dark Age. This beginning also explains or at least should explain why Lazlo, unlike so many other communities with magic, also respects and uses high technology.

I say should because later in the book, Lazlo is written as if they possess a psychological blind spot where high technology and its demonstrated efficiency and capabilities are concerned. For example, fully 25% of Lazlo’s population is psychic (page 11). With a population of over three million, that gives us a figure north of 750,000. There must be several thousand within that population that possess abilities like Tele-Mechanics. Even if that isn’t the case, Lazlo is famed as the primary center of Techno-Wizardry in North America, if not the entire planet. Since that is true, and all Techno-Wizards possess Tele-Mechanics as well as Total Recall, Speed Reading and Machine Ghost, it is safe to assume that Lazlo has the ability to reverse engineer anything but the most alien and advanced of technologies. When you combine that with their interdimensional travel and trade with such places as Center in The Three Galaxies, they should logically be just as advanced technologically as say Northern Gun or the Coalition States. Only they aren’t as advanced (page 11). This would be the first logical inconsistency. Lazlo came from technological beginnings. It continues to use high technology today (current time in the book, 110PA). Therefore if they are going to continue using high technology, why settle for anything less than what you are capable of producing?

This goes beyond a matter of efficiency, which is listed as a primary concern of all Techno-Wizards (page 20). It is or rather should be, a key component of Lazlo’s diplomatic strategy. In the book, Lazlo is reaffirmed as being non-aggressive in its diplomatic polices. If a peaceful solution is possible, they will pursue it vigorously. It is a well known fact of the real world that deterrence is a vital component of any such policy. If potential aggressors believe that you possess capabilities that match or exceed their own, they will be less likely to launch an offensive. Thus, being seen to possess technology every bit as advanced as Northern Gun or the Coalition States, would be a form of deterrent to the Coalition’s xenophobic, genocidal and expansionistic foreign policy stance.

Beyond acting as a form of deterrence, being known as a producer of technology on par with the other major high technology nations on the continent means Lazlo becomes the natural, logical alternative to those communities, groups and individuals that want to purchase or have repaired, high tech items. That would have a positive effect on Lazlo’s economy and at the same time, give it a measure of ‘soft power’ influence with those communities and groups. That can only be seen as a good thing by the ruling bodies of Lazlo. In fact, consider the following paraphrased sentences; The vast majority of money coming into the state is due to its strong manufacturing capacity. Several advanced factories are based in Lazlo…(page 42). So if all of your peers are producing better technology than you are, how is it you have such strong sales? And back to my point, why would you produce inferior products when you have the capability to produce equal to or better than your peers? And how can their factories be labeled as “advanced” (page 42), when in the same book it states those same capabilities aren’t as advanced as your peers (page 11)?

Now there is some concern that being seen as a technological power equal to the CS would cause some concern with Northern Gun. After all, if Lazlo can produce items that are just as advanced, wouldn’t that cut into NG’s market share? I believe that to be a fairly unreasonable concern however because Lazlo would almost certainly not be in the weapons export market. A producer and exporter of say communications, medical and all manner of civilian use items, however, would only make good sense in both economic and diplomatic terms.

The next issue is their stance on magic and its use. Here again we see inconsistencies and things which make no logical sense. They consider themselves to be the preeminent, most moral and educated magic using nation-state on the planet. While that may be true, it is not an exaggeration to say that this precept of their society has gone from simple self-assurance to outright arrogance. An illustration of this is how the perceive any magic user not trained in Lazlo. All such mages are referred to as a Hedge Wizard rather than a True Wizard or “Wildling” (page 20). I think we can all agree that’s not a terribly enlightened attitude to take with the overwhelming majority of spell casters on the planet. Its an attitude made even more puzzling when you consider that’s how their ambassadors to the United Worlds of Warlock were treated in The Three Galaxies (page 40).

Beyond their intellectual and magical arrogance, their stance on everyday magic use is illogical at best. In all honesty I find the mental gymnastics required to follow their thinking as presented in this book to be more twisty than a pretzel in a MC Escher drawing. According to pages 11 and 12, openly casting magic within the city is considered to be irresponsible and rude according to Lazlo society. Yet in the sentence immediately before that it says it is not uncommon to see Lay-Line Walkers and other practitioners of magic floating down one of the ley-lines.

As expected from the video by Kevin S., Lazlo is not the place to go to purchase spells, regardless of the level of spell one is trying to purchase. Despite the RUE clearly stating on page 190 that spells from levels one through nine are readily available for purchase, Lazlo and even its private citizens will never spells, not even a simple Globe of Daylight spell for fear of it somehow being used irresponsibly or against Lazlo (pages 20-21).

That position of hording magic knowledge for fear of it being misused, combined with their institutional arrogance, combines to make entry into any of their magic schools an effective impossibility. In order to be even considered, one must first have a letter of recommendation from a graduate of one of the schools (page 59). Think of the kind of barrier that represents. Lets say you are a young would be mage or even a low level mage already, from say the Colorado Baronies or a small town somewhere. You’ve heard of Lazlo and what a center for learning it is, magical and mundane. You have hopes of becoming your village or town healer or resident benevolent mystic. You then make the dangerous journey across the continent to Lazlo only to be turned away because you had the misfortune of not being born in a village that had been honored by the presence of one of Lazlo’s magic school graduates. For a society that believes so strongly that knowledge and the sharing of knowledge is the cure for everything, including the Coalition State’s stances on magic and non-humans (page 25), this is incomprehensible. How can a society believe that, if only the CS citizens were enlightened like we are, they would see through the lies and corruption of the Proseks and throw off the chains of oppression (page 25), but restrict knowledge sharing to the point of paranoid lunacy? If Lazlo truly believed in effecting positive change on Earth, confident that their way is the right way, as evidenced by their afore described arrogance, then wouldn’t they welcome the chance to teach Hedge Mages and Wildlings? Welcome the chance to indoctrinate them into their morally superior and enlightened way? This part of the book makes about as much sense as the CS outlawing literacy. Especially considering they aren’t the only source of magic knowledge on the continent. Using my example from above, the hopeful student would instead just go to Kingsdale or even Merc Town for any spell from levels 1-9. Those places would get the credits, not Lazlo. I do understand that monetary gain isn’t one of the driving forces of Lazlo but its still a lost opportunity for income and to spread their beliefs beyond their borders.

Another inconsistency involving magic, this one entirely internal to the book, is located on pages 11 and 12. Those pages state that the population of Lazlo is 25% magic users and 25% psychic, which means 50%. Not three paragraphs later, it states and I paraphrase here, that the majority of Lazlo’s citizens are neither psychic or magic users. This is perhaps a minor issue but for something to be called the “majority” it must be larger than 50%. In fact, going by the book definition it must be a total more than half. The greater the numbers involved, the more past half you must get. From example, with a population of 3 million, 1,500,000 (50%) are psychic or magic users. The other half would also be 1,500,000. If we play with the numbers so that the mage/psychic half is 1,499,999 and the other half is 1,500,001, yes, the non-magic/psychic half is larger but by an insignificant amount. To claim a true majority with those numbers you would need at least 30,000 more on one side or other. It would be better to say something along the lines of “fully half of Lazlo’s citizens are not magic users or psychics,” or other words to that effect.

Besides how difficult it is to gain entry into one of Lazlo’s magic universities, there is the fact that for each benefit a character gains for attending, they lose a skill slot (page 62). By attending one of the schools (and paying the 30,000 credits per semester), a character can gain one of five benefits for attending that school. Each school has different benefits which are tiered from lowest to highest. Some of the benefits are admittedly useful, such as level five benefit of one of the schools, which significantly increases the mage’s PPE and if a mortal, turns them into a supernatural being (page 64). That is an undeniable bonus to the character but unfortunately most of them fall under the category of “meh”. One example is the level two benefit from another school; it allows the mage to “borrow” PPE, at a rather pathetic rate per level, from an area that has been previously sanctified with a specific ritual. The term borrow is exactly correct as the mage must pay back the PPE by halving their normal PPE regeneration rate until all borrowed PPE has been accounted for.

Regardless of the benefit, in order to get it, the character has to give up a skill slot. That makes no sense at all. People attend universities to gain knowledge, not lose it. By attending all this extra training, beyond and above their natural OCC, characters should receive an increase not a decrease. Spell casters, like the Ley-Line Walker or Warlock, already get few skill slots as is. There is no game balance reason to take away still more skill slots from them. That is even more true in Rifts where the creator himself has stated game balance isn’t one of his priorities, as evidenced by having Vagabonds exist in the same universe as Undead Slayers and Dragon Hatchlings. To be clear, I like the individual schools of magic. I find them a welcome addition to not only Lazlo but also the setting as a whole since they can be applied elsewhere. I appreciate that attending the school offers a benefit that is expressed in game mechanics. What I have issues with are the poorly thought-out and illogical execution of them.

Another part of the magic in the book that was underwhelming was the new spells. For the most part it is a continuation of the same minimal effect Vs PPE cost spells that Rifts has more than enough of already. For instance, there is a spell that makes someone completely invulnerable to possession, Soul Drinking or PPE draining attacks. Sounds fantastic right? Except there is a catch, so long as that protection spell is on the person, they can no longer use PPE. So sure, you are now immune to a Psi-Stalker’s attempts to drain your PPE but that’s rather cold comfort since you just made yourself a non-mage for the duration. I do hope that you had the foresight to be wearing excellent full environmental armor and a suitable selection of high-tech weapons about you, as well as the skill to use them effectively. That is a completely unnecessary restriction which no magic user would ever willing use on themselves. Casting it on a non-magic user, sure, it wouldn’t hamper them in the slightest but any other magic user, from a spell caster to a tattooed man/woman, would in effect be disabled as surely as if they were under an Anti-Magic Cloud.

Another section which I have mixed feelings on is Lazlo now has a professional military. I have said for years (and most recently in the “Lazlo Raw Edition” thread here on these boards; viewtopic.php?f=8&t=167573&start=50
That for Lazlo to exist and be as large as it is, it must have an actual, real, well trained and well equipped, professional military force. So seeing that this book finally gives it to them is most welcome. What bothers me is that its handled, and I hate to keep using these words, illogically and inconsistently. For starters it was only within the past few years, from the current game time of 110 PA, that Lazlo finally noticed that they really do need a professional military. That is something they should have figured out decades ago. According to the book, Iron Heart, prior to it joining the Coalition States, built up the largest (at that time) Navy in North America for the express purpose of invading and conquering Lazlo. Lazlo’s Intelligence Agency (another welcome addition) discovered this. A preemptive strike was launched in which Lazlo destroyed the entire Iron Heart Navy, plus shipyards AND made off with their two aircraft carriers.

That they did this without a professional military doesn’t bother me too much. What bothers me is that despite the evidence that they face threats that very much are actively trying to destroy them, they didn’t build an answering military until several decades later. Worse from a logical point of view, if Lazlo didn’t feel the need to have a professional military, why take the carriers in the first place instead of sinking them with the rest of the IH Navy? Or if you did take them as some sort of demonstration of your capabilities, why not sink them afterwards? But why? I’m glad you asked. You see aircraft carriers are expressly a power projection system. True they can be used in defense and not just offense but however they are employed, their sole purpose is to give a nation the ability to project power (primarily air power) beyond the reach of their land-based aircraft. This is an important detail. Thanks to the prevalence of nuclear powered aircraft in Rifts, the endurance of aircraft are measured in hours of continuous flight, not miles. An example of this is the Grey Falcon by Iron Heart Armaments. It has a flight endurance of 10 hours at 200 MPH. That gives it an effective range of 1,000 miles from Lazlo. That means Lazlo can reach out to anywhere within 1,000 miles of its territory, conduct a mission and return. Keeping that in mind, that Lazlo can respond with aircraft anywhere within 1,000 miles of its shores/borders, why then bother with the expense of two aircraft carriers? Having them cruising the Great Lakes means crewing and provisioning them, paying for maintenance costs and other expenditures all for very little practical return. If a Lazlo flagged freighter were to send out a distress call, say it was swamped by a storm or attacked by pirates or a CS patrol, having a carrier on the lakes wouldn’t reduce response time by significant amount. It would be cheaper and ultimately more effective to invest in a larger fleet of destroyer and cruiser sized vessels, capable of launching squads of flying power armor to deal with emergencies. The greater number of vessels could cover more area for the same amount of personnel and the loss of any one of them would be far less costly.

Another issue that falls under illogical and inconsistent is their strategic planning and leadership. Lazlo understands or seems to understand that against its two most likely, most capable and most deadly threats, the CA and Xiticix, they will be heavily out numbered. Realizing this, they plan on fighting, correctly in my professional opinion, using what the writer is calling asymmetrical warfare. Based on the descriptions, that is a bit of a misnomer, what they actually plan on doing is emulating the tactics of Frederick The Great, specifically his use of “Oblique” attacks. I will admit though that the distinction is subtle and likely unnoticed or unimportant to most outside the military.

So if I agree they should fight in that manner, where is the inconsistency and illogic? That comes in the form of despite knowing this, in fact despite their Commander in Chief being an expert in asymmetrical warfare, the book says he will never authorize such tactics as he considers them to be too ruthless/evil.

How can you know that your nation’s only chance of survival is embracing a specific strategy, develop weapons for that strategy but then refuse to use them? That’s pure insanity.

I realize that the LDF will be described in much greater detail in a later book but so far, it isn’t making much sense. Even the force and rank structure doesn’t make much sense. I am willing to overlook that part as I realize not everyone has the same experience and perspective I do (23 years in the US Army and counting).

There are other issues but I’ve already crossed 3,400 words. I will post the rest of the review later.

Zero disagreement with Toc.....having read most of my own copy....I'm glad I was already working on my own netbook....

Edit - I'll add that like the Ontario portion of Rifts Canada, some of the geographical stuff to me is a complete mess (I live here) as is a couple of things tied to their geographical location. It also reads like the author did not read/learn a lot of the material already published throughout the variety of Rifts books that already existed. It creates some minor to serious inconsistencies.

47 years resident of Lazlo -ahem- I mean Toronto, Ontario...Canada.
I've filled & fleshed out my own version of Lazlo ages ago since, DESPITE being the most important, non-facist / non-Neo-neo-Nazi city in the original Rifts book; NOTHING has been written aside from the barest of fluff text.

From what I've been hearing about this new book, I think I'll be saving myself $30 and a LOT of rage. There really isn't any excuse either since Siembiada has BEEN here on numerous occasions. He should know better.

Oh well.
Rant over, bank account given reprieve and my legs saved from the hike out to the ONLY store in the entire city to actually carry Palladium books (maybe, when they feel like it) in the entire city.

That still Hairy T?

Mr. Jays wrote:I just received my copy today. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, just a flip through. But, what I see looks GREAT!

Same, I am especially interested in the Schools of Magic. As a gut reaction it seems a good way to give some institutional knowledge to magic users. Hope this idea gets refined and applied to magic-users in the rest of the Palladium system.

Toc Rat wrote:Greetings everyone. What follows will be my spoiler filled review of the Lazlo Raw book. When reading the book and when writing this review, I have kept in mind that this is only a raw, preview edition and not the finalized version. Any part of it is subject to change for the final release version. Before I get into the spoiler filled version of this review, I will do a short, non-spoiler version.

First, the book is layed out in a logical manner. It starts with the origins of Lazlo, progressing to its current state, everything from climate to political parties. I would argue that the “Notable Institutions” such as the various universities, should come after the details on the city itself but that’s more a matter of preference and I acknowledge it could be argued either way.

Second, the book does cover, to varying degrees of detail, just about every subject associated with Lazlo. I will say that some areas didn’t receive enough detail but we have been told that more books will be coming out to cover those areas.

My overall impression, keeping in mind that this isn’t the finished product, is disappointment. While I appreciate the layout of the book and understand that certain subjects will be covered in greater detail in later books, what we did get was…lackluster. The book contradicts not only itself but previously published rules and setting material. It’s as if the writer failed to read or read and ignored, previous relevant material. I won’t say that you should or shouldn’t pass on the raw edition and wait for the finished product. I will say that don’t buy the raw and expect it to be remotely close to fulfilling your expectations.

Now for the spoiler filled version. From this point on, I will be speaking in specifics rather than generalities. If you do not wish to know them, stop here and content yourself with the non-spoiler review from above.




Bottomline up front, this book is inconsistent and self contradictory. In the following paragraphs I will explain in detail those inconsistencies and contradictions. It also fails to really consider what a society and nation-state would look like with access to high technology, magic and inter-dimensional travel. It tries but most of those efforts I will classify as failure to fully imagine the possibilities, to take them to their logical outcome or the possibility was considered but poorly executed.

As I stated above, the book begins with the origins of Lazlo. In the very beginning, as in well before it ever became known as Lazlo, it started as a NEMA survivor camp. Security was provided a NEMA Urban Command Post. I appreciated the tie in with Chaos Earth and this would fit nicely with the RUE revision about “Nemans” being the saviors of humanity during the Dark Age. This beginning also explains or at least should explain why Lazlo, unlike so many other communities with magic, also respects and uses high technology.

I say should because later in the book, Lazlo is written as if they possess a psychological blind spot where high technology and its demonstrated efficiency and capabilities are concerned. For example, fully 25% of Lazlo’s population is psychic (page 11). With a population of over three million, that gives us a figure north of 750,000. There must be several thousand within that population that possess abilities like Tele-Mechanics. Even if that isn’t the case, Lazlo is famed as the primary center of Techno-Wizardry in North America, if not the entire planet. Since that is true, and all Techno-Wizards possess Tele-Mechanics as well as Total Recall, Speed Reading and Machine Ghost, it is safe to assume that Lazlo has the ability to reverse engineer anything but the most alien and advanced of technologies. When you combine that with their interdimensional travel and trade with such places as Center in The Three Galaxies, they should logically be just as advanced technologically as say Northern Gun or the Coalition States. Only they aren’t as advanced (page 11). This would be the first logical inconsistency. Lazlo came from technological beginnings. It continues to use high technology today (current time in the book, 110PA). Therefore if they are going to continue using high technology, why settle for anything less than what you are capable of producing?

This goes beyond a matter of efficiency, which is listed as a primary concern of all Techno-Wizards (page 20). It is or rather should be, a key component of Lazlo’s diplomatic strategy. In the book, Lazlo is reaffirmed as being non-aggressive in its diplomatic polices. If a peaceful solution is possible, they will pursue it vigorously. It is a well known fact of the real world that deterrence is a vital component of any such policy. If potential aggressors believe that you possess capabilities that match or exceed their own, they will be less likely to launch an offensive. Thus, being seen to possess technology every bit as advanced as Northern Gun or the Coalition States, would be a form of deterrent to the Coalition’s xenophobic, genocidal and expansionistic foreign policy stance.

Beyond acting as a form of deterrence, being known as a producer of technology on par with the other major high technology nations on the continent means Lazlo becomes the natural, logical alternative to those communities, groups and individuals that want to purchase or have repaired, high tech items. That would have a positive effect on Lazlo’s economy and at the same time, give it a measure of ‘soft power’ influence with those communities and groups. That can only be seen as a good thing by the ruling bodies of Lazlo. In fact, consider the following paraphrased sentences; The vast majority of money coming into the state is due to its strong manufacturing capacity. Several advanced factories are based in Lazlo…(page 42). So if all of your peers are producing better technology than you are, how is it you have such strong sales? And back to my point, why would you produce inferior products when you have the capability to produce equal to or better than your peers? And how can their factories be labeled as “advanced” (page 42), when in the same book it states those same capabilities aren’t as advanced as your peers (page 11)?

Now there is some concern that being seen as a technological power equal to the CS would cause some concern with Northern Gun. After all, if Lazlo can produce items that are just as advanced, wouldn’t that cut into NG’s market share? I believe that to be a fairly unreasonable concern however because Lazlo would almost certainly not be in the weapons export market. A producer and exporter of say communications, medical and all manner of civilian use items, however, would only make good sense in both economic and diplomatic terms.

The next issue is their stance on magic and its use. Here again we see inconsistencies and things which make no logical sense. They consider themselves to be the preeminent, most moral and educated magic using nation-state on the planet. While that may be true, it is not an exaggeration to say that this precept of their society has gone from simple self-assurance to outright arrogance. An illustration of this is how the perceive any magic user not trained in Lazlo. All such mages are referred to as a Hedge Wizard rather than a True Wizard or “Wildling” (page 20). I think we can all agree that’s not a terribly enlightened attitude to take with the overwhelming majority of spell casters on the planet. Its an attitude made even more puzzling when you consider that’s how their ambassadors to the United Worlds of Warlock were treated in The Three Galaxies (page 40).

Beyond their intellectual and magical arrogance, their stance on everyday magic use is illogical at best. In all honesty I find the mental gymnastics required to follow their thinking as presented in this book to be more twisty than a pretzel in a MC Escher drawing. According to pages 11 and 12, openly casting magic within the city is considered to be irresponsible and rude according to Lazlo society. Yet in the sentence immediately before that it says it is not uncommon to see Lay-Line Walkers and other practitioners of magic floating down one of the ley-lines.

As expected from the video by Kevin S., Lazlo is not the place to go to purchase spells, regardless of the level of spell one is trying to purchase. Despite the RUE clearly stating on page 190 that spells from levels one through nine are readily available for purchase, Lazlo and even its private citizens will never spells, not even a simple Globe of Daylight spell for fear of it somehow being used irresponsibly or against Lazlo (pages 20-21).

That position of hording magic knowledge for fear of it being misused, combined with their institutional arrogance, combines to make entry into any of their magic schools an effective impossibility. In order to be even considered, one must first have a letter of recommendation from a graduate of one of the schools (page 59). Think of the kind of barrier that represents. Lets say you are a young would be mage or even a low level mage already, from say the Colorado Baronies or a small town somewhere. You’ve heard of Lazlo and what a center for learning it is, magical and mundane. You have hopes of becoming your village or town healer or resident benevolent mystic. You then make the dangerous journey across the continent to Lazlo only to be turned away because you had the misfortune of not being born in a village that had been honored by the presence of one of Lazlo’s magic school graduates. For a society that believes so strongly that knowledge and the sharing of knowledge is the cure for everything, including the Coalition State’s stances on magic and non-humans (page 25), this is incomprehensible. How can a society believe that, if only the CS citizens were enlightened like we are, they would see through the lies and corruption of the Proseks and throw off the chains of oppression (page 25), but restrict knowledge sharing to the point of paranoid lunacy? If Lazlo truly believed in effecting positive change on Earth, confident that their way is the right way, as evidenced by their afore described arrogance, then wouldn’t they welcome the chance to teach Hedge Mages and Wildlings? Welcome the chance to indoctrinate them into their morally superior and enlightened way? This part of the book makes about as much sense as the CS outlawing literacy. Especially considering they aren’t the only source of magic knowledge on the continent. Using my example from above, the hopeful student would instead just go to Kingsdale or even Merc Town for any spell from levels 1-9. Those places would get the credits, not Lazlo. I do understand that monetary gain isn’t one of the driving forces of Lazlo but its still a lost opportunity for income and to spread their beliefs beyond their borders.

Another inconsistency involving magic, this one entirely internal to the book, is located on pages 11 and 12. Those pages state that the population of Lazlo is 25% magic users and 25% psychic, which means 50%. Not three paragraphs later, it states and I paraphrase here, that the majority of Lazlo’s citizens are neither psychic or magic users. This is perhaps a minor issue but for something to be called the “majority” it must be larger than 50%. In fact, going by the book definition it must be a total more than half. The greater the numbers involved, the more past half you must get. From example, with a population of 3 million, 1,500,000 (50%) are psychic or magic users. The other half would also be 1,500,000. If we play with the numbers so that the mage/psychic half is 1,499,999 and the other half is 1,500,001, yes, the non-magic/psychic half is larger but by an insignificant amount. To claim a true majority with those numbers you would need at least 30,000 more on one side or other. It would be better to say something along the lines of “fully half of Lazlo’s citizens are not magic users or psychics,” or other words to that effect.

Besides how difficult it is to gain entry into one of Lazlo’s magic universities, there is the fact that for each benefit a character gains for attending, they lose a skill slot (page 62). By attending one of the schools (and paying the 30,000 credits per semester), a character can gain one of five benefits for attending that school. Each school has different benefits which are tiered from lowest to highest. Some of the benefits are admittedly useful, such as level five benefit of one of the schools, which significantly increases the mage’s PPE and if a mortal, turns them into a supernatural being (page 64). That is an undeniable bonus to the character but unfortunately most of them fall under the category of “meh”. One example is the level two benefit from another school; it allows the mage to “borrow” PPE, at a rather pathetic rate per level, from an area that has been previously sanctified with a specific ritual. The term borrow is exactly correct as the mage must pay back the PPE by halving their normal PPE regeneration rate until all borrowed PPE has been accounted for.

Regardless of the benefit, in order to get it, the character has to give up a skill slot. That makes no sense at all. People attend universities to gain knowledge, not lose it. By attending all this extra training, beyond and above their natural OCC, characters should receive an increase not a decrease. Spell casters, like the Ley-Line Walker or Warlock, already get few skill slots as is. There is no game balance reason to take away still more skill slots from them. That is even more true in Rifts where the creator himself has stated game balance isn’t one of his priorities, as evidenced by having Vagabonds exist in the same universe as Undead Slayers and Dragon Hatchlings. To be clear, I like the individual schools of magic. I find them a welcome addition to not only Lazlo but also the setting as a whole since they can be applied elsewhere. I appreciate that attending the school offers a benefit that is expressed in game mechanics. What I have issues with are the poorly thought-out and illogical execution of them.

Another part of the magic in the book that was underwhelming was the new spells. For the most part it is a continuation of the same minimal effect Vs PPE cost spells that Rifts has more than enough of already. For instance, there is a spell that makes someone completely invulnerable to possession, Soul Drinking or PPE draining attacks. Sounds fantastic right? Except there is a catch, so long as that protection spell is on the person, they can no longer use PPE. So sure, you are now immune to a Psi-Stalker’s attempts to drain your PPE but that’s rather cold comfort since you just made yourself a non-mage for the duration. I do hope that you had the foresight to be wearing excellent full environmental armor and a suitable selection of high-tech weapons about you, as well as the skill to use them effectively. That is a completely unnecessary restriction which no magic user would ever willing use on themselves. Casting it on a non-magic user, sure, it wouldn’t hamper them in the slightest but any other magic user, from a spell caster to a tattooed man/woman, would in effect be disabled as surely as if they were under an Anti-Magic Cloud.

Another section which I have mixed feelings on is Lazlo now has a professional military. I have said for years (and most recently in the “Lazlo Raw Edition” thread here on these boards; viewtopic.php?f=8&t=167573&start=50
That for Lazlo to exist and be as large as it is, it must have an actual, real, well trained and well equipped, professional military force. So seeing that this book finally gives it to them is most welcome. What bothers me is that its handled, and I hate to keep using these words, illogically and inconsistently. For starters it was only within the past few years, from the current game time of 110 PA, that Lazlo finally noticed that they really do need a professional military. That is something they should have figured out decades ago. According to the book, Iron Heart, prior to it joining the Coalition States, built up the largest (at that time) Navy in North America for the express purpose of invading and conquering Lazlo. Lazlo’s Intelligence Agency (another welcome addition) discovered this. A preemptive strike was launched in which Lazlo destroyed the entire Iron Heart Navy, plus shipyards AND made off with their two aircraft carriers.

That they did this without a professional military doesn’t bother me too much. What bothers me is that despite the evidence that they face threats that very much are actively trying to destroy them, they didn’t build an answering military until several decades later. Worse from a logical point of view, if Lazlo didn’t feel the need to have a professional military, why take the carriers in the first place instead of sinking them with the rest of the IH Navy? Or if you did take them as some sort of demonstration of your capabilities, why not sink them afterwards? But why? I’m glad you asked. You see aircraft carriers are expressly a power projection system. True they can be used in defense and not just offense but however they are employed, their sole purpose is to give a nation the ability to project power (primarily air power) beyond the reach of their land-based aircraft. This is an important detail. Thanks to the prevalence of nuclear powered aircraft in Rifts, the endurance of aircraft are measured in hours of continuous flight, not miles. An example of this is the Grey Falcon by Iron Heart Armaments. It has a flight endurance of 10 hours at 200 MPH. That gives it an effective range of 1,000 miles from Lazlo. That means Lazlo can reach out to anywhere within 1,000 miles of its territory, conduct a mission and return. Keeping that in mind, that Lazlo can respond with aircraft anywhere within 1,000 miles of its shores/borders, why then bother with the expense of two aircraft carriers? Having them cruising the Great Lakes means crewing and provisioning them, paying for maintenance costs and other expenditures all for very little practical return. If a Lazlo flagged freighter were to send out a distress call, say it was swamped by a storm or attacked by pirates or a CS patrol, having a carrier on the lakes wouldn’t reduce response time by significant amount. It would be cheaper and ultimately more effective to invest in a larger fleet of destroyer and cruiser sized vessels, capable of launching squads of flying power armor to deal with emergencies. The greater number of vessels could cover more area for the same amount of personnel and the loss of any one of them would be far less costly.

Another issue that falls under illogical and inconsistent is their strategic planning and leadership. Lazlo understands or seems to understand that against its two most likely, most capable and most deadly threats, the CA and Xiticix, they will be heavily out numbered. Realizing this, they plan on fighting, correctly in my professional opinion, using what the writer is calling asymmetrical warfare. Based on the descriptions, that is a bit of a misnomer, what they actually plan on doing is emulating the tactics of Frederick The Great, specifically his use of “Oblique” attacks. I will admit though that the distinction is subtle and likely unnoticed or unimportant to most outside the military.

So if I agree they should fight in that manner, where is the inconsistency and illogic? That comes in the form of despite knowing this, in fact despite their Commander in Chief being an expert in asymmetrical warfare, the book says he will never authorize such tactics as he considers them to be too ruthless/evil.

How can you know that your nation’s only chance of survival is embracing a specific strategy, develop weapons for that strategy but then refuse to use them? That’s pure insanity.

I realize that the LDF will be described in much greater detail in a later book but so far, it isn’t making much sense. Even the force and rank structure doesn’t make much sense. I am willing to overlook that part as I realize not everyone has the same experience and perspective I do (23 years in the US Army and counting).

There are other issues but I’ve already crossed 3,400 words. I will post the rest of the review later.

I was heavily doubting ordering the Raw preview but I'm not sot sure any more after reading this... Maybe the final version will solve a lot of these issues but somehow I doubt it since that would require quite a huge overhaul and I have no clue if Palladium has ever done that between a RAW version and a finalized version...

I'd like to find out the names of the new O.C.C.s.

Toc Rat wrote:[snip]...

As expected from the video by Kevin S., Lazlo is not the place to go to purchase spells, regardless of the level of spell one is trying to purchase. Despite the RUE clearly stating on page 190 that spells from levels one through nine are readily available for purchase, Lazlo and even its private citizens will never spells, not even a simple Globe of Daylight spell for fear of it somehow being used irresponsibly or against Lazlo (pages 20-21).

That position of hording magic knowledge for fear of it being misused, combined with their institutional arrogance, combines to make entry into any of their magic schools an effective impossibility. In order to be even considered, one must first have a letter of recommendation from a graduate of one of the schools (page 59). Think of the kind of barrier that represents. Lets say you are a young would be mage or even a low level mage already, from say the Colorado Baronies or a small town somewhere. You’ve heard of Lazlo and what a center for learning it is, magical and mundane. You have hopes of becoming your village or town healer or resident benevolent mystic. You then make the dangerous journey across the continent to Lazlo only to be turned away because you had the misfortune of not being born in a village that had been honored by the presence of one of Lazlo’s magic school graduates. For a society that believes so strongly that knowledge and the sharing of knowledge is the cure for everything, including the Coalition State’s stances on magic and non-humans (page 25), this is incomprehensible. How can a society believe that, if only the CS citizens were enlightened like we are, they would see through the lies and corruption of the Proseks and throw off the chains of oppression (page 25), but restrict knowledge sharing to the point of paranoid lunacy? If Lazlo truly believed in effecting positive change on Earth, confident that their way is the right way, as evidenced by their afore described arrogance, then wouldn’t they welcome the chance to teach Hedge Mages and Wildlings? Welcome the chance to indoctrinate them into their morally superior and enlightened way? This part of the book makes about as much sense as the CS outlawing literacy. Especially considering they aren’t the only source of magic knowledge on the continent. Using my example from above, the hopeful student would instead just go to Kingsdale or even Merc Town for any spell from levels 1-9. Those places would get the credits, not Lazlo. I do understand that monetary gain isn’t one of the driving forces of Lazlo but its still a lost opportunity for income and to spread their beliefs beyond their borders.

not only would those other places get the income from training people, but let's just pause and consider for a moment... who is more likely to use their magical abilities against lazlo or in a way that lazlo would be displeased? a person trained by a mercenary, or someone trained in one of lazlo's universities?

this is essntially them saying they don't want the chance to teach you how to use magic in a moral way and sending you off to learn from someone who doesn't care if you use magic in a moral way or not instead.

Nuristas wrote:I was heavily doubting ordering the Raw preview but I'm not sot sure any more after reading this... Maybe the final version will solve a lot of these issues but somehow I doubt it since that would require quite a huge overhaul and I have no clue if Palladium has ever done that between a RAW version and a finalized version...

At most I may get the PD on special or a used copy. As from what I can see in that review of the RAW edition you posted of the book way too much is inconsistent and contradictory in way too many places. It seems like two different people wrote the book the freelancer and Kevin. So wither neither of the two spoke to each other. The book was not edited properly or two conflicting versions of Lazlo were smashed together (think putting a square peg into a round hole).

The book needs a major rewrite because the product is very much not ready to be released as final product. They can of course then they can't be shocked at the negative reviews and criticisms said against them about the book

Rifts – Lazlo Raw Review, Part 2

This is the second part of my review of the Lazlo (raw) book. This has been written in the expectation that the reader has already read the first part. As such, it will contain spoilers. Out of respect for Palladium’s wishes, this review, like the first part, will use paraphrasing in place of exact quotes from the material.

A vital part of nation-state is its economy. That fact is axiomatic and so I am pleased that the writer clearly took the time and put thought into the economy of Lazlo. Yes, I feel that some parts of it don’t make much sense but one part that he gets exactly right is how Lazlo’s position on the Great Lakes would make it a major shipping and transshipping hub. Indeed, he states that a little over a quarter of its annual income is generated by virtue of being a major trade hub (page 42). The writer also gave thought to the fact that, with their magic and techno-magic, Lazlo can easily engage in trade with other dimensions as well as act as a natural shipping and transshipping hub on an interdimensional scale. In that way, it is much like Center in The Three Galaxies. This is one part of the book that I have much praise for.

Another area covered by the book is new OCCs. A total of six are presented however four of them amount to small variations of the same concept; Peace Officer/Detective. One is a standard Peace Officer type, the OCC that would be responding to traffic accidents, robberies, domestic violence calls and other common crimes and situations. The next one combines the functions of Peace Officer Sergeant/Lieutenant and a Detective. Two of the others are also what amounts to Peace Officers but they are specialists focused on dealing with ghosts and other entities. One is what amounts to a Stealth Mage. Members of that OCC are for the most part, members of the Lazlo Intelligence Agency. The last one is a TW Borg.

I’d like to expand on that point for a moment. At first, it seems that having four different variations on Peace Officer seems redundant and to be fair, there is some truth to that viewpoint. They could be reduced by making them different MOS skill packages of the same OCC. That said, there is a point to them that makes sense for Lazlo. According to previously published material, just about every time a rift is opened, on purpose or accidently, something unwanted comes out. The writer clearly remembered this and put thought into how Lazlo, a society and nation with high levels of magic, psionics and technology, would respond. Two of the OCCs are that response as they are specialized anti-ghost/entity agents They are roughly analogous to the Coalition’s NTSET OCCs, such as the NTSET Protector and the NTSET Psi-Hound (WB 11, pages 187-189). As with the attention to detail on Lazlo’ economy, I commend the writer on this aspect. Yes, I think the number of OCCs could be reduced but it was good to see that thought was put into this aspect of the game mechanics/setting.

My reaction to the TW Borg OCC is mixed. On the one hand, it is good to see that some thought was put into the concept of how a full conversion borg would be constructed by a nation-state with access to high technology and magic/techno-wizardry. On the other hand, while clearly some thought went into it, it fails to fully realize the potential of those respective disciplines. The result was a borg that is in some ways inferior to existing borgs that rely strictly on technology and have no magic components whatsoever.

For example, compare the lowest speed attribute for a Combat Borg from Rifts Ultimate Edition (page 47) to the maximum possible for the Lazlo TW Borg; 132 (90MPH) Vs 88 (60 MPH), respectively. Why is there any difference between the two? The basic frame of each borg is or should be, based on technology. Technology that is well known, widely distributed and readily attainable. As I noted previously, there is absolutely no logical reason why Lazlo’s technology would lag so far behind Northern Gun or the Coalition States. Therefore the basic chassis of a combat borg for Lazlo should be virtually identical to anything that the CS or NG can produce.

The TW Borg OCC is riddled with inconsistencies and just plain short comings just like the terrible speed rating. Another example is an optional flight system. If installed, it gives the TW Borg the ability to fly 75MPH (150MPH on ley-lines) at a maximum altitude of 10,000ft. (page 126). Now compare that to a bionic jetpack from the Bionics Sourcebook, which allows a borg to travel at 200MPH on or off a ley-line, at an altitude of 6000ft. Yes, the maximum altitude of the TW Borg is superior however as a matter of practical tactical ability, it would be better to have the extra speed, rather than the higher altitude. The point is that since Lazlo has both high technology and magic, they should be able to combine the best of both, not suffer such downgrades in performance.

I believe that these lackluster aspects of the TW Borg stems from the approach of the writer, which seems to be start with magic, then apply technology rather than start with technology, then apply magic. That may seem like semantics but it isn’t. If you start with magic and then slap on technology, you get what we have seen time and again throughout the books; inferior equipment, almost always looking shoddy and with no standardization. If you start with technology and then look for places where a considered application of magic could be used to enhance the native abilities of technology, you get a product that is superior to pure technology or pure magic. That is what we should be seeing from Lazlo across the board but we aren’t.

Case in point, the Lazlo TW Borg isn’t a standardized chassis (page 120). There is simply no reason for that. Lazlo has the benefit of decades of their own, organic TW development, plus access to several TW researchers from Tolkeen as well as access to technology from not just across the planet but from other dimensions. That means they have the benefit of learning from all those other people’s mistakes, rather than have to make their own mistakes and learn that way. In other words, they already know what works and what doesn’t. Refining a design from prototype to production model should have been ridiculously easy for them. We shouldn’t be seeing what can only be described as a prototype. We should be seeing a fully realized and developed model of Borg.

Imagine for instance if the TW Borg had started with the standard, commonly available borg chassis. The one that is already faster even at the lowest end of its performance envelope. Now add a TW module to it that capitalizes on the “Full Throttle” spell from Mercenary Adventures. It increase the speed of a vehicle by 40%. By building that into a TW module and installing that into a TW Borg chassis as either a built in or optional component, the result would be a borg capable of running 40% faster than a pure technology borg. That is a significant performance increase by any measure. Unfortunately this book, like the ones before it with regards to techno-wizardry, focuses on magic first, technology second.

I feel it is important to say again, to keep in mind this is the first draft of the book. Palladium has stated that upfront. So as with any first or rough draft, there was bound to be errors and missteps. I am hopeful that Palladium will consider this review to be what I intended it to be; constructive criticism. An opportunity to take a look at their rough draft and make the necessary adjustments and refinements to eventually publish a fully matured and thoughtful book.

That's kinda disappointing, even though I've had some ideas for entity/ghost based O.C.C.s floating around and look forward to seeing related concepts.

Thanks for posting this, Toc Rat. I'm finding this review useful, and similar to my comments in the previous thread hope it and other customer opinions are taken into account in further rewrites. A couple of lines might be a bit unfair (a slim majority of the population can still be non-psychic or magic with 25% being each once one accounts for classes that access both, and refining magical abilities via skill slots at least has some rules precedent with Sorcerous Proficiencies) but I'd like to hope it can serve as a bit of a wake up call. If Lazlo is going to be given a multi-book treatment the organization can take publishing delays somewhat into account while still throwing an enticing amount of crunch in with an initial framework of the region.

That said, two cop, two ghostbuster, and a TW Borg makes five classes, so what's the sixth?

Curbludgeon, thank you for reminding me of that. I managed to forget about that OCC after deep diving on the TW Borg. I have edited my review to include it. To answer your question here, it is effectively a kind of Stealth Mage. Members of this OCC are for the most part, members of the Lazlo Intelligence Agency.

The book has a good chance of being one of the best must have sourcebooks for the Rifts game line. That being said it needs a major rewrite as imo it's not ready to go to the printers yet.

Based on what I've read here... Lazlo's approach to technology sounds like Triax's approach to magic: they acknowledge it as a fact of life, but have not embraced it.

I received my copy yesterday. I've just been discussing the book with my friends, and thought I'd see if there was talk of it on the forums.

Lazlo and RIFTS hold a special place in my heart -- I've played an OC hailing from there in an RP group for over a decade.

I went in with mixed expectations. I didn't care at all about mechanics (I'd prefer to use Savage RIFTS for any game I'd run...). But I expected some useful stuff. And I'd say with those expectations, I'm not disappointed.

Some things jumped out at me as odd, but they can still be fixed, and in my own portrayal of Lazlo, sometimes patches are obvious.

I am glad to see some attention paid to Lazlo's government, economics, culture, laws, etc.

One small thing that struck me was that if one of Lazlo's trading partners is an alternate RIFTS Earth... regular travel between multiple RIFTS Earths seems like it might open a lot of cans of worms.

Other than that, I'd like to look at these issues in the same order Toc Rat did -- it's as good an order as any.

Edit: My followup post isn't showing up. I'm not sure why. This one was approved quickly, do they usually take long? I don't want to retype it, though...

There was a bit in there about demanding that cyborgs have records to PROVE they didn't buy their stuff from a cyber-snatcher. That's stupid and I will ignore it.

Origins of Lazlo: I don't read the bit about the NEMA camp as having any real connection to Lazlo as a society. It's just a reason people have been in the area.

High technology, telemechanics, and reverse-engineering: This isn't just a problem for Lazlo, it's a problem for anyone. How is Wilk's able to make better lasers than everyone else when any telemechanic can tell Northern Gun exactly how to make a better laser? ARCHIE and the Naruni might have ways to foil telemechanics, but most Earth-based manufacturers? As for why Lazlo doesn't make more tech, maybe there's a limit to how many raw materials are available (though they could work on offworld mining...), and Lazlo's culture of 'responsible use of power' won't jive well with any person who has the right mindset to start a weapons manufacturing company. (I'm a little unclear on how there are so many TW weapon crafters, but perhaps the mages' arrogance, myopically, only applies to spell knowledge. You don't hear about them strenuously testing and hazing aspiring mecha engineers...)

Magic Arrogance: To some degree, this could be an interesting wrinkle in Lazlo's society, but I initially read it the same way you did and thought it ridiculous. Friends pointed out it's only ridiculous if they aren't happy to offer training and certification to mages from outside Lazlo (PCs probably won't bother, but non-adventurers might well take them up on the offer.) I agree with you that as written it's dumb, but I hope it's an oversight that will be fixed in the final version, and in any case I will portray Lazlo as being willing to train and certify outsiders.

Buying Spells: This IS weird, for the reasons you point out. It feels related to the way that tech and TW weapons are okay but spells mysteriously aren't. Hopefully this is at least addressed in the final -- my own take on it might be that Lazlo mages might be a little more discerning (the way a real life gunstore owner might be suspicious of someone who wants a saturday night special) but, outside of reason to believe the customer is going to run off and be irresponsible with it, sells the spell because the knowledge is, after all, readily available in other cities.

Magic Schools: As far as I'm concerned, this is neat fluff. I don't care about classic RIFTS mechanics anymore.

Military's Formation: Honestly I'm kind of fuzzy on the timeline here; It seems like that should be easy to fix in a rewrite.

Military Planning: Lazlo refusing to fight too dirty is very Lazlo -- the state's quintessential weakness is that they won't use their power to go out and fix things. Read that passage again, though -- Arl Xyzzyn is willing to use asymmetric warfare, but he's NOT willing to use dark magic like Tolkeen did.

TW Borg: This is a really neat idea but somewhat lackluster in raw power. You've said more than I could about the issues with their stats. As for the lack of a unified chassis... I think it speaks to a larger issue we're dealing with wherever technology and magic come up in this book:

Techno-wizards are in some parts of RIFTS portrayed as almost mad scientists, each doing things their own way and always pushing the boundaries of what's possible first and worrying about the side effects second. The TW borg chassis perfectly fits this aesthetic, as every TW has their own idea of how to pull it off. Very flavorful, but...
In Lazlo and in Stormspire and other places, Techno-Wizardry is standardized enough that some items are mass-produced. Furthermore, Lazlo has actual schools that teach techno-wizardry, and such a structure lends itself to less heterogeneous practices of TW. I'm not sure how to resolve this tension between cool aesthetics and in-world practicality.

I suppose you could consider there as being two types of techno-wizards, mechanically the same but aesthetically very different. The mad-science TWs are those that either learned independently, or were part of the first generation of discovering and experimenting with TW in a given settlement. This is fairly the assumption for most PC TWs. Lazlo's early TWs and those they trained were of this type, and that image may well still be present in the public consciousness... but as the teaching of TW becomes more refined (whether for education itself, or for churning out technician-wizards who can work on an assembly line) you get TWs who learned a standard way to do something, and do it that way unless it doesn't work -- eventually, some of them act like Lazlo's snooty mages, questioning the efficacy of doing things in more unique ways. This, I'd expect, is the modern Lazlo TW. I'm a bit fuzzy on when, exactly, TW was invented -- if it was decades ago, then a more modern, standardized version of TW has had some time to get entrenched, but if it was fairly recently then we may have a lot of both types of TWs co-existing.

In any case, with an entirely new TW invention like the TW Metalhead borg, I'd expect that the aesthetic would be more mad-sciencey as TWs experiment to find what works best -- there simply IS no standard yet, and there's no reason to just slavishly copy the first design when you might yet improve on it. With a regular cyborg this would be laughable -- there are so many technologies built on eachother that you NEED standardization for something that advanced to exist -- but perhaps with a TW cyborg, as long as you know the right principles you really can build one your own way, and as long as it produces the needed magic effects, it doesn't matter?

On the other hand, TW power armor isn't described this way at all and is instead standardized, so who knows?

I have and read it.

I'm very much in line with toc rat and his assessment. I've waited 30 years for Lazlo and this to me is nothing short of a disaster.

in regards to TK borgs, i can understand the approach they seem to be taking (from the comments above)- the very nature of making a techno-wizard item means you lose all the advantages of mass-production. each thing needs to be hand-built and integrated fully into the chassis which means you can't swap parts anymore- since disassembling a techno-wizard item functionally destroys it. even if you build five TW borgs identically town to the spellwire pattern, you can't remove the parts from one and transfer it to another because of how techono-wizardry works.

it's not a matter of lazlo not grasping how to do it, it's that you're playing very strongly against the way techno-wizardry operates by trying to build a big aggregate mechinism like a cyborg out of it. it's just not the right tool to do it with, and i consider them a novelty- clearly rightly so.

Orin J. wrote:in regards to TK borgs, i can understand the approach they seem to be taking (from the comments above)- the very nature of making a techno-wizard item means you lose all the advantages of mass-production. each thing needs to be hand-built and integrated fully into the chassis which means you can't swap parts anymore- since disassembling a techno-wizard item functionally destroys it. even if you build five TW borgs identically town to the spellwire pattern, you can't remove the parts from one and transfer it to another because of how techono-wizardry works.

it's not a matter of lazlo not grasping how to do it, it's that you're playing very strongly against the way techno-wizardry operates by trying to build a big aggregate mechinism like a cyborg out of it. it's just not the right tool to do it with, and i consider them a novelty- clearly rightly so.

I see. Could you quote which book and page number you are taking that from?

I asl because time and again throughout the book, too include the RUE, we are told that all Techno-Wizards do is swap out the power source. The laser rifle is still the same as before, only the power source has changed.

If that is true, then it becomes a simple matter of taking a standard tech borg chassis and adding TW components to it. Each TW module can be built on an assembly line, per the RUE, and added to each borg chassis, also on am assembly line.

Sure its not the same as full up automated production rates but the industrial revolution started with the "continuous flow stream" which later became known as the assembly line.

I'm away from my books at present but as soon as I can, I will edit this to include the book and page references I am making my statements from.

To say tw devices can't be mass produced is utterly asinine. Stormspires existence is predicated on doing exactly that and you're going to try and tell me the city state that supposedly invented tw can't? Really?

Tolkeen, dweomer, stormspire, all mass produce tw devices.....yet lazlo.....can't?

I feel like you don't seem to be grasping the issue. the advantage of mass production is you can crank out a lot of something quickly through automation and swap the parts over as you like. with a TW-cyborg chassis, you can't do either because 1: the techno-wizard devices require a sufficently leveled techno-wizard to construct/integrate them by hand and 2: the process of integrating the techno-wizard components into the chassis means they cannot be removed or replaced without destroying the removed part and rebuilding the new one effectively from scratch.

they might be identical, but each TW-cyborg is functionally a one-off in construction because of the way techno-wizardry itself works. stormspire charges a staggering amount of money for their weapons because as much as they have made the design standard, the weapons are very much uniquely assembled weapons built by skilled craftsmen, rather than mass-produced on an assembly line. techno-wizardry's achilles' heel has always been economy of scale working against it.

I grasp just fine thank you very much.

Its a design. A design that can be replicated over and over.

As long you have the materials necessary the assembly of the item can be mass produced easily with the only "hand built part" being the spells cast into it in proper sequence.

****, you don't even need a mage to actually build the bloody device just to cast the spells into it as the final step.

The notion of every tw device being some sort of handcrafted one off is pure bs and is shown to be bs in the books we already have. Other nations that are smaller than than lazlo can do so, yet even though the tw industry from mundane every day items to higher end vehicles is a staple of the lazlo economy and they have a huge manufacturing capability, you're trying to say lazlo cannot mass produce tw items?

Thats a crock dude, seriously.

Orin J. wrote:I feel like you don't seem to be grasping the issue. the advantage of mass production is you can crank out a lot of something quickly through automation and swap the parts over as you like. with a TW-cyborg chassis, you can't do either because 1: the techno-wizard devices require a sufficently leveled techno-wizard to construct/integrate them by hand and 2: the process of integrating the techno-wizard components into the chassis means they cannot be removed or replaced without destroying the removed part and rebuilding the new one effectively from scratch.

they might be identical, but each TW-cyborg is functionally a one-off in construction because of the way techno-wizardry itself works. stormspire charges a staggering amount of money for their weapons because as much as they have made the design standard, the weapons are very much uniquely assembled weapons built by skilled craftsmen, rather than mass-produced on an assembly line. techno-wizardry's achilles' heel has always been economy of scale working against it.

Again, could you please provide, by book and page number, where you are getting that from?

I am now home and have reviewed my books. Here are some relevant references that support my position that yes, TW Items can and are mass produced.

World Book 28, Arzno - "Focusing on mass production and consistency, if you need a simple, unelaborate TW Firebolt Pistol, Lightning Rod, or a wood-firing rail gun...", page 44.

Rifts Core Book - "The techno-wizard can modify an existing machine that requires some form of energy, other than kinetic, to operate on psionic and magic energy. This can be done to anything from an energy weapon to an automobile" page 91.

Rifts Ultimate Edition - "The following items are just a small handful of some common Techno-Wizard items regularly mass-produced and sold throughout North America." page 135

Merc Ops - "Most other Techno-Wizard weapon-makers produce mass market items that all look identical, just like traditional weapon manufacturers", page 138

So as we can see, TW items are in fact regularly mass produced. As Jaymz pointed out while I was writing this, even though the actual spell part of the item is effectively "hand made" or "hand installed" by an actual Techno-Wizard, all the rest of the item isn't. Even with the "limitation" of having to hand install spells, the industrial revolution started with works equipped with hand tools or even just their hands, standing on an assembly line, doing the same motion over and over again, thus increasing efficiency and quality.

Please try to imagine beyond your current concepts. Imagine teams of techno-wizards, standing along an assembly line, each one performing just their one spell as part of the item. The TW item rolls down the assembly line, each TW or even non-mage, adding their part to it. Eventually the item reaches the end of the assembly line, as finished TW product, taking its place next to dozens, hundreds or even thousands of identical items.

Based on all of the references above, there is every reason to believe that Lazlo, Stormspire, Mage Fire Weaponry Inc., Armstrong TW Armaments Co., etc do in fact mass produce TW items as their business model and normal means of operating. As stated in those books, their TW items are made to be identical to each other because that's how you mass produce things. Sure, some items are custom made or one offs, I won't deny that because that would be silly. However those are the outliers, the unusual, not the norm. The norm is mass production.

Therefore I stand by what I have said, there is no reason for Lazlo not to have mass produced a standardized TW Borg chassis, if they were going to do it all. They would start with a standard technology borg chassis and introduce mass produced TW modules. That statement is fully supported by the references I cited here so please, check them out for yourself. If you still feel that TW items aren't or can't be mass produced after reading all of that...well, we are at an impasse. At that point, no further discussion would be required unless you were to come up with book and page references conclusively (and unambiguously) proving I am wrong as well as the references, the official references I cited, are also wrong.

The techno-wizard construction rules in RUE state that a single techno-wizard, with at the most, one techno-wizard assistant, has to do almost all of the construction themselves. They can have a maximum of one "non-techno-wizard assistant" for every two experience levels of the primary techno-wizard (so a 6th level wizard could have three assistants), but these assistants can only do a few "mundane bits of construction". It can save time, but only 5% per assistant (up to a maximum of 35% of the time, for seven assistants - which would require a 14th level techno-wizard!). It looks like the act of building is all a part of the magic. The alternative is a bit like saying a summoner or diabolist could get someone else to draw a magic circle and they just turn up at the end say a few words and expend some P.P.E.
I guess when they make reference to "mass production" it may be more like masses of techno-wizards each working individually or with a few assistants, but working from the same schematics and being supplied with the same tools, parts, raw materials, etc. to streamline the process as much as possible, but without breaking the construction rules. Less like an assembly line, and more like "cellular manufacturing". An actual production line doesn't seem possible by the rules as written.

And that is for a character.

You know most if the work would be concept and design. To say the tw has to be involved in 65% of the assembly of a mundane mechanical device before spell infusion us bloody asinine

jaymz wrote:And that is for a character.

You know most if the work would be concept and design. To say the tw has to be involved in 65% of the assembly of a mundane mechanical device before spell infusion us bloody asinine

and so what if it's asinine? lots of things in the world are. lots of things in the rifts world are. not wanting it to be that way doesn't mean it's bad. it's just a type of borg that not optimised for stats.

not like this game's all that crazy about balance to begin with, i'd rather they made lazlo function as a nation well over the tw-borg balanced with the normal version.

Soldier of Od wrote:The techno-wizard construction rules in RUE state that a single techno-wizard, with at the most, one techno-wizard assistant, has to do almost all of the construction themselves. They can have a maximum of one "non-techno-wizard assistant" for every two experience levels of the primary techno-wizard (so a 6th level wizard could have three assistants), but these assistants can only do a few "mundane bits of construction". It can save time, but only 5% per assistant (up to a maximum of 35% of the time, for seven assistants - which would require a 14th level techno-wizard!). It looks like the act of building is all a part of the magic. The alternative is a bit like saying a summoner or diabolist could get someone else to draw a magic circle and they just turn up at the end say a few words and expend some P.P.E.
I guess when they make reference to "mass production" it may be more like masses of techno-wizards each working individually or with a few assistants, but working from the same schematics and being supplied with the same tools, parts, raw materials, etc. to streamline the process as much as possible, but without breaking the construction rules. Less like an assembly line, and more like "cellular manufacturing". An actual production line doesn't seem possible by the rules as written.

So for PCs, an assistant TW (max one) adds to the effective TW skill. It seems reasonable to extrapolate from this that in carefully controlled situations, a LOT of TWs could work together on something to increase reliability and speed -- perhaps you CAN have an assembly line of TWs? (I'd imagine that the process of working out how you can divide the work of creating a specific device is something that takes a lot of time and expertise and a number of tries to work out. Impractical for PCs who just want to make a thing and thus not worth having rules for...)

The non-TW assistants are extremely limited for a PC. A PC is generally not building the same thing hundreds or thousands of times, but an all-new project. Figuring out what parts of the project they can delegate to nonmages may be very difficult to do quickly; However, mass production is a different beast -- Once a single high-level TW has figured out what work the nonmages can do on a given item, the assembly line can just copy their process over and over again. It may also be possible for a group of lower-level TWs working together to figure out what work can be delegated, but it might take too long for most PC use cases. (And, an option not generally available to PCs, is having robots do it. Seven helpers can knock 35% off the build speed, but tireless robots that always execute the exact same instructions might do the same amount of work in less time...)

Though I doubt "Warwolf" thought of it in these terms and probably described TW borgs as each unique for aesthetic reasons, this could also be an in-world explanation for why every TW borg is different: Cutting-edge TWs have figured out the TW principles needed to MAKE a borg that generates its own PPE and can draw on external sources, but have NOT yet figured out how to break down the process into parts for an assembly line yet -- and every TW capable of helping to figure that out, who takes time to work on it, is a TW missing out on payday RIGHT NOW by not making TW-borgs when there is apparently huge, immediate demand. Maybe some of them ARE working on it anyway in hopes of one day properly mass-producing TW-borg bodies, but they're not there yet.

Orin J. wrote:

jaymz wrote:And that is for a character.

You know most if the work would be concept and design. To say the tw has to be involved in 65% of the assembly of a mundane mechanical device before spell infusion us bloody asinine

and so what if it's asinine? lots of things in the world are. lots of things in the rifts world are. not wanting it to be that way doesn't mean it's bad. it's just a type of borg that not optimised for stats.

not like this game's all that crazy about balance to begin with, i'd rather they made lazlo function as a nation well over the tw-borg balanced with the normal version.

So what? Because lazlo mass produces tw devices as part of its economy thats why.

So at best you've found one passage in one book to support your position that there is no mass production of TW items.

Meanwhile I've found, just off hand, several passages in several books that do support my position.

Your passage also fails to support your position that TW items can't be standardized whereas mine do support standardization.

Unless and untill you find irrefutable book supported evidence that outweighs everything I've found, I will continue to stick with my two positions, mass production and standardization of TW items is not only possible but what is in fact happening.

As I said earlier, the industrial revolution started with people using their hands and sometimes hand tools, to assemble things.

So there is no logical reason why TWs can't stand on an assembly line, mass producing TW items, by hand. Thank you for recognizing that Prysus. I appreciate it.

Toc Rat wrote:As I said earlier, the industrial revolution started with people using their hands and sometimes hand tools, to assemble things.

So there is no logical reason why TWs can't stand on an assembly line, mass producing TW items, by hand. Thank you for recognizing that Prysus. I appreciate it.

sure there is, because the guy making it isn't ajust putting the spell in it like a battery. it's not like you build the device, then cast the spell and you're done. it's the spell is being worked into the device during the entire construction, so the magic is part of the building process the entire time. RUE is sorta clear on that. Under device salvage, it says that the process fuses the components and imprints the spell into the individual parts, there's even a penalty for building in a low-magic environment.

you're splitting the difference between engineering and enchantment with techno-wizardry, so it makes perfect sense some of the issues with making a magic item are present in the process. at least you don't require like a billion XP to get the levels needed to do it.

I'm somewhat baffled as to why there would be a huge demand for TW cyborgs.

I mean, I could definitely imagine reasons why there *could* be demand, if they started from regular cyborgs and then you could add on modules that made a meaningful difference in what the cyborg could do. but I recall they made TW cyborgs in rifts canada, and it was pretty much "you can get a gun that is mostly the same as a regular gun except instead of recharging on its own you need PPE... remember that stuff that you no longer have much of because you're a cyborg? yeah, that's what you use to recharge it".

and I'm guessing that TW cybernetics in lazlo are going to be pretty similar... now, I could be wrong. maybe they're offering TW invisibility to sensors together with TW invisibility that makes you incredibly difficult for technological opponents to fight (or a similar version with mystic invisibility to help fight supernatural opponents). maybe there's a TW mystic portal module that lets you jump through the hull of a robot vehicle and attack the crew inside. maybe there's a TW negate magic barriers device that will make you vastly more able to overcome some of the most common debilitating spells.

but I'm guessing that it's mostly stuff like TW flamethrowers and lightning guns, TW-enhanced claws or retracting blades, TW mobility options that don't do anything tech couldn't do better (and few if any of the magical mobility options where magic is genuinely superior, like teleportation), etc. maybe a TW force field or something, which sounds cool at first until you remember that cyborgs don't have the PPE to recharge these devices easily, but you know what they do have? the ability to wear incredibly cheap body armour that can probably take over 10 times as much damage as the TW force field can prevent (now, a TW invulnerability force field would be awesome, as that would give substantial bonuses to saving throws and immunity to some types of damage, but I rather suspect that isn't on the list).

I have no feelings either way on how techno-wizard items can or cannot be created, I just referred to the rules, which show that an assembly line is not possible. You might feel the rules are illogical or asinine, but that doesn’t change them. That’s just how the magic works.

The "one passage" I referred to is the rules that explain in detail how techno-wizard construction works. I think the techno-wizard construction rules are an extremely important reference when discussing techno-wizard construction. I have not said mass production does not happen, just that it must be different to what you suggest. It doesn’t been you can’t benefit from some aspects of mass production – just in a different (and perhaps more limited) way:

“Mass production” is just manufacturing the same thing, to the same specifications, using the same materials so that the stuff sent out to the customer is all the same. This can be achieved a number of ways, one of which is assembly line production. Unfortunately, as per the rules, it is not possible to use an assembly line because of the rule that a single “primary techno-wizard” has to do the vast majority of the construction for a techno-wizard device. So, they must be built using some other form of mass production, like cells or rinks, or multiple individuals following a standardized process.

But they can work with all the support and time saving extras that working for a large company can bring. Let’s say a techno-wizard device takes 40 hours to make. The advantage of mass-production is that the wizard doesn’t have to worry about any of the other stuff involved. So, if they run out of number 2 screws, they don’t have to delay their work and pop to the shops to get more, because they have a guy who makes sure there are enough spares around for everyone. If the wizard’s laser drill breaks down, they don’t have to stop and fix it; a company engineer can come along and repair it while the techno-wizard turns to some other part of the construction. They don’t have to worry about paperwork and other stuff. And once complete, other people can clean, check and package the item, and send it off for distribution or whatever. All the schematics are standardized and proven, providing a bonus to construction, and therefore reducing rejects. So, the advantage is that after four 10-hour days, the device is built. At home on their own, the wizard might not get 10 hours solid work in each day, having to pause and sort out all the peripheral stuff that is not actually building the thing. You can’t reduce the actual construction time or cost other than how it says in the construction rules, but you can make the process more efficient so that the construction time is spread over as few days as possible.

Sure, a techno-wizard can make a device and add it to an ordinary car. No problem. So maybe one wizard can make a magic energy bolt gun, one wizard can make a magic globe of daylight searchlight and one wizard can make a magic cloud of smoke smokescreen, and all of these separate devices could be attached to a car. They are essentially separate devices that work on their own, no different to a gun intended to be hand held. But by the rules each of these devices must be made by an individual wizard with a limited number of assistants and not on an assembly line. As can be seen by Prysus's references, "mass-produced" and "hand made" are not mutually exclusive - "mass produced" does not have to mean "on an assembly line".

Now that you mention it, I'm unclear on why there's 'huge demand', but as for why anyone would want to be a TW metalhead at all... part of it Shark_Force identifies, there are magical attachments that can do things that tech just can't or can't as well. (But also magical attachments that do things that are better done by tech...)

But I think the other part is the development of a compact TW reactor that both generates PPE AND allows the cyborg it's implanted in to use external sources of PPE(!), which is something cybernetics normally interfere with. This technology could allow mages to get cybernetics, although I imagine the more common use case would be mages who lost a limb and had to go without rather than get cybernetics, or lost a vital organ and have reduced magic ability due to a cybernetic replacement, rather than mages wishing to become full-conversion cyborgs.

Soldier of Od wrote:Sure, a techno-wizard can make a device and add it to an ordinary car. No problem. So maybe one wizard can make a magic energy bolt gun, one wizard can make a magic globe of daylight searchlight and one wizard can make a magic cloud of smoke smokescreen, and all of these separate devices could be attached to a car. They are essentially separate devices that work on their own, no different to a gun intended to be hand held.

i feel this is a very disingenuous way to discuss the matter, because you're likening the TW-devices to being "plug-and-play" items you can just bolt onto something and by the rules, they aren't.

you can have one wizard making an energy bolt gun, one making a gloe of daylight searchlight and on making a magic cloud of smoke smokescreen, and all three of those devices must be built into the car instead of built and then installed later. this is why the resulting device is effectively treated as a one-off because the act of construction is part of the finished product. much like handmade pottery, they can produce large numbers of them, but they lack ths standardization of mass-production because the individualization of the hand-made process affects the final product. the more TW-features/enhancements you put into one system, the more that individualization compounds and affects the costs in time and manpower for the final product.

for a TW-cyborg that rapidly becomes a massive undertaking.

Orin J. wrote:

Soldier of Od wrote:Sure, a techno-wizard can make a device and add it to an ordinary car. No problem. So maybe one wizard can make a magic energy bolt gun, one wizard can make a magic globe of daylight searchlight and one wizard can make a magic cloud of smoke smokescreen, and all of these separate devices could be attached to a car. They are essentially separate devices that work on their own, no different to a gun intended to be hand held.

i feel this is a very disingenuous way to discuss the matter, because you're likening the TW-devices to being "plug-and-play" items you can just bolt onto something and by the rules, they aren't.

you can have one wizard making an energy bolt gun, one making a gloe of daylight searchlight and on making a magic cloud of smoke smokescreen, and all three of those devices must be built into the car instead of built and then installed later. this is why the resulting device is effectively treated as a one-off because the act of construction is part of the finished product. much like handmade pottery, they can produce large numbers of them, but they lack ths standardization of mass-production because the individualization of the hand-made process affects the final product. the more TW-features/enhancements you put into one system, the more that individualization compounds and affects the costs in time and manpower for the final product.

for a TW-cyborg that rapidly becomes a massive undertaking.

The items I gave as examples I chose specifically because I think they can be thought of as separate items that can be added later - like if I took a TW rifle intended for personal (hand-held) use and just bolted it to the hood of a car and trailed a switch to the dashboard - it wouldn't stop the rifle from working just because I screwed it to something else. It isn't "part" of the car, just stuck to it. But if one were to want a car that turned invisible or could drive on walls, then it that case the whole thing would be a TW item that would need building up as such.

I think that most techno-wizard items are non-standard, but to get standardization, all you need to do is get a group of individuals together, hand them the same schematics and the same raw materials and pay them to make it the same way. They may all be working individually, but the end result of each techno-wizard's work should be very similar, if not the same; and if it isn't, you send them to Human Resources for disciplinary action! How much of this actually goes on inn the world of Rifts, I don't know.

it is also worth noting that the only part that absolutely requires a single TW is the imbuing with the spells and magic.. most of the gross assembly parts with the wire, crystals, bits of tech hardware, etc ought to be doable by any TW off a schematic or blueprint. so you could do a henry ford type assembly line with a person at every step where you have lower level TW's making the device hardware and then higher level ones at the end doing the final assemblies and addition of the magic.

glitterboy2098 wrote:it is also worth noting that the only part that absolutely requires a single TW is the imbuing with the spells and magic.. most of the gross assembly parts with the wire, crystals, bits of tech hardware, etc ought to be doable by any TW off a schematic or blueprint. so you could do a henry ford type assembly line with a person at every step where you have lower level TW's making the device hardware and then higher level ones at the end doing the final assemblies and addition of the magic.

RUE says the exact opposite of this, dude.

Orin J. wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:it is also worth noting that the only part that absolutely requires a single TW is the imbuing with the spells and magic.. most of the gross assembly parts with the wire, crystals, bits of tech hardware, etc ought to be doable by any TW off a schematic or blueprint. so you could do a henry ford type assembly line with a person at every step where you have lower level TW's making the device hardware and then higher level ones at the end doing the final assemblies and addition of the magic.

RUE says the exact opposite of this, dude.

It does indeed. That was the point I was making in my earlier post.

Question: how much of New Laslo is printed?

I never liked how Laslo was the "Good Guys"™, which is why I always preferred New Laslo, but it seems Laslo was corrected for the setting so I'll likely be getting this one.

the RUE rules are pretty much entirely about creating new prototypes for ideas that usually don't exist yet.

I'm not sold that they should be used as or were ever intended to be rules for fine-tuning a functioning design and then producing 100 copies of it per month in a factory.

Shark_Force wrote:the RUE rules are pretty much entirely about creating new prototypes for ideas that usually don't exist yet.

I'm not sold that they should be used as or were ever intended to be rules for fine-tuning a functioning design and then producing 100 copies of it per month in a factory.

This.

As for New Lazlo, it's mentioned in the diplomatic relations section but New Lazlo itself is outside the scope of this book.

Many Thanks

Shark_Force wrote:the RUE rules are pretty much entirely about creating new prototypes for ideas that usually don't exist yet.

I'm not sold that they should be used as or were ever intended to be rules for fine-tuning a functioning design and then producing 100 copies of it per month in a factory.

The rules in RUE cover functioning designs, not just prototypes. In fact, building a prototype using these rules instils a -20% penalty. And working with a proven functioning design grants a +15% bonus. So the rules as written include both ends of the spectrum. But that is just the design part of the process anyway. The construction part has to conform to its own rules whether the design is new or has been made thousands of times before. As long as the item takes less than a month to build, you could easily produce 100 copies a month in a factory as long as you had enough individual techno-wizards each making their own copy.