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Does anyone do reduction in skills or bonuses during character creation for Master Psionics? I would think they would need time to develope those Psionic abilities over learning skills during Cyber-Knight training. Just looking for some house rules you might use. Thanks!

In general I agree with you. But sadly that ship sailed with RUE, especially when it didn't include the skill reduction for being a major psychic.

(SHIFTY) wrote:Does anyone do reduction in skills or bonuses during character creation for Master Psionics? I would think they would need time to develope those Psionic abilities over learning skills during Cyber-Knight training. Just looking for some house rules you might use. Thanks!

As Mack said, per RUE, there are no drawbacks. However, I explored some drawbacks of having a Psyscape psi-stalker Cyber-Knight in another thread. In particular, the Open Third Eye ability to radiate one's emotions would be a liability for instinctive emotions typical of a psi-stalker; they might do something similar even for non-psi-stalkers, and thus the management of one's emotions and how they radiate would require some significant discipline. In the linked thread, I mentioned some possibilities, such as the gambling skill (controlling your tells might be like controlling your radiating emotions), using Total Recall to relive traumatic memories to emotionally purge yourself before going into combat, or engaging in rigorous competition might allow the psychic to achieve a measure of control.

There are other ways in which you might turn a psychic ability into a liability, especially for a master psionic who does not take a proper psychic character class. It takes some imagination, but with some imagination, it's possible to come up with limitations that enrich the character and the playing experience for everyone in interesting ways.

Note: I put my comment about the controversies surrounding the changing class subject within the spoilers. Those that wish to make comments about my comments are encouraged to put their comments in spoilers too.

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The direct answer to the OP:
According to the changing class rules in rifts, no character can change their class cause there are no generalized changing class rules within the rifts game texts.

Yes, there are CCRs for going to one specific class or from a specific class which are only applicable to those specific classes.

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follow up answer to the OP Q:
GM's can at their choice include the PF changing class rules into their Rifts games.

According to the published PF changing class rules it is specifically stated no char can change to or from PCCs (ie: master psionic classes). These specific statements are in ALL PF PCCs. And the published changing class rules in the PF game in their text as written only say they cover OCCs. (There is controversy over this because without regard to their classifications PB seam to use in different places the label OCC as to mean just their Job classes that any char can take and in other places to seam to mean ALL of their character classes within the core book. Almost like it was written that way to provoke arguments.)


There are posted text for the PF game that allow GMs to allow RCCs and PCCs to change their class.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Note: I put my comment about the controversies surrounding the changing class subject within the spoilers. Those that wish to make comments about my comments are encouraged to put their comments in spoilers too.

----
The direct answer to the OP:
According to the changing class rules in rifts, no character can change their class cause there are no generalized changing class rules within the rifts game texts.

Yes, there are CCRs for going to one specific class or from a specific class which are only applicable to those specific classes.

---
follow up answer to the OP Q:
GM's can at their choice include the PF changing class rules into their Rifts games.

According to the published PF changing class rules it is specifically stated no char can change to or from PCCs (ie: master psionic classes). These specific statements are in ALL PF PCCs. And the published changing class rules in the PF game in their text as written only say they cover OCCs. (There is controversy over this because without regard to their classifications PB seam to use in different places the label OCC as to mean just their Job classes that any char can take and in other places to seam to mean ALL of their character classes within the core book. Almost like it was written that way to provoke arguments.)

Spoiler:

[commentary: with the publication of RUE, PB had a chance of making things right by just having job classes labeled as OCCs and only racial classes labeled as RCCs, and just Master Psionic Classes as PCCs to follow the words that make up the Label abbreviations. But they decided to throw even more confusion into the mix with their choice. Which to me was oil recovery method stupid.]

There are posted text for the PF game that allow GMs to allow RCCs and PCCs to change their class.

Spoiler:

Comments: I only agree with the letting Cultural or way of life RCCs change their class, because they are basically just job classes. And I agree with the original text that bars characters from changing to or from a PCC. Game mechanics wise characters that have already developed their skills for an OCC have already burned off the perm PPE that is needed to develop Psionic powers that are the basis of a PCC. Then there is not being allowed from changing from a PCC...If the character Still Has Their Psionic Powers they have no reason to change their character class to something else.
The only way, as a GM, I would allow a PCC to change their class to another class is that the char has lost their psi powers and they transfer to a non-magic OCC, or to a cultural/way of life RCC.

Actually I was more talking about rolling on the psychic determination table for the Cyber Knight OCC. Not multiclassing. It seems like the majority of Cyber Knights are natural minor psychics. Is this correct? Also, are the natural Master Psionic Cyber Knights like potential Mind Melters that did not fully develop their psychic skills and became Cyber Knights instead?

It's not multiclassing at all. This is directly addressed in the RUE. (Do note that the CK book is a bit wonky here just giving 1-80% as Majors. 91-100 as 'none' but then on the same page lists off differences for Minor, Major and Master. The CK book also only gives +1D6 to the CK's PSi sword at lvl 2, while the RUE gives more.

RUE is 'more modern (2005 vs CK's 2000)

So, if going with the most modern rules,

"Cyber-Knight Psionics Common to All :
Create Psi-Sword (no I .S.P. cost);
Create Psi-Shield ( 15 I.S.P., which is half the normal I. S.P. cost);
Meditation (to relax, restore I.S.P. and heal more quickly).

Inner Spirit: Somewhere around 70% of all Cyber-Knights possess limited psychic powers. These candidates are selected, in part, for their innate psychic abilities and (usually) high Mental Endurance (M.E.).
The player (or the G . M . ) can either decide that his Cyber-Knight character is a natural psychic and make the selections accordingly, or he may roll percentile dice for random determination:

01-40% Minor Psychic: I.S.P. Base: 3D6 + M.E. attribute number + 1D6 I.S.P. per level of experience. As a Minor Psychic, the Knight needs a 12 or higher to save vs psionic attacks. Select three additional
psi-powers from the following list. These are in addition to the three powers known to all Cyber-Knights.
Alter Aura (2)
Empathy (4)
Mind B lock (4)
Object Read (6)
Resist Fatigue (4)
See the Invisible (4)
Sense Evil (2)
Sense Magic (3)
S ixth Sense (2)
Speed Reading (2)
Summon Inner Strength (4)
Total Recall (2)

41-60% Major Psychic: I.S.P. Base: 6D6 + M.E. attribute number + 1D6 I.S.P. per level of experience. As a Maj or Psychic, the Knight needs a 1 2 or higher to save vs psionic attacks. Select a total of six additional psychic powers from any of the three psionic categories: Healing, Sensitive, and Physical. These are in addition to those three powers known to all Cyber-Knights.

61-70% Master Psychic: I.S.P. Base: 6D6+ 10 + M.E. attribute number +2D4 I.S.P. per level of experience. As a Master Psychic, the Cyber-Knight needs a 10 or higher to save vs psionic attacks. Select a
total of 8 additional psychic powers from the categories Healing, Sensitive, and Physical. The Cyber-Knight also gains ONE Super-Psionic power at levels 2, 6 and 1 0, and does an additional + l D6 M.D. with his Psi-Sword at levels 2, 5, 9 and 1 3 . These are in addition to the three psionic powers known to all Cyber-Knights.

So drew is way way off with all the multiclass stuff or changing class. You can straight up simply choose to be a master psychic from the jump, or you have a 10% chance of rolling it if your group is into randomness (Something the writers of Palladium seem much much more interested in than -ANY- group I've ever witnessed). Simply deciding is actually listed first in this case. lol "Decide which he is, or roll randomly"

To answer the OP though.

No. I don't reduce the skills. This is a game where "Vagabonds" have tens of thousands of dollars in equipment and weapons that could core a modern day battle tank with one pull of the trigger. Dragons can polymorph into the size of a cat and rip the legs off of robots and use them to beat people into paste, mages can walk into a room in a teeshirt and boxer shorts. Call on invisible armor that noone can see then throw mega damage fireballs with strength that far exceeds the cannon off a modern day battle tank.....

A CK having a bit more skills than many PCC's doesn't really bother me in the grand scheme of things. I see no reason to mess with it. The character cna create an instant light saber in their own palm for unlimited duration. A skill or 5 one way or the other isn't going to make that much difference

(SHIFTY) wrote:Actually I was more talking about rolling on the psychic determination table for the Cyber Knight OCC. Not multiclassing. It seems like the majority of Cyber Knights are natural minor psychics. Is this correct?

Since at the minimum, all CK's have three powers (Sword, Shield, and Meditation) I'd say yes. However, whether they were all "natural minor psychics" or gained those abilities through the CK's unique training program isn't really explained.

(SHIFTY) wrote:Also, are the natural Master Psionic Cyber Knights like potential Mind Melters that did not fully develop their psychic skills and became Cyber Knights instead?

That's a good way to explain it.

Mack wrote:ince at the minimum, all CK's have three powers (Sword, Shield, and Meditation) I'd say yes. However, whether they were all "natural minor psychics" or gained those abilities through the CK's unique training program isn't really explained.

However it is established in cannon (for humans, though other D-Bees may or may not be the same) that everyone has the ability to unlock psychic abilities given M.O.M impalnts and their relatives (found in WB12 and SB3) can turn even a normal person into a psychic because the powers "activate" or "unlock" parts of the brain. So to say "natural" or "unnatural" psychic doesn't really work if everyone has psychic potential, its just that something happens to bring it out (established in WB12 and the CS research that allows them to "shape" psychics into a desired outcome, and CK training).

(SHIFTY) wrote:Actually I was more talking about rolling on the psychic determination table for the Cyber Knight OCC. Not multiclassing. It seems like the majority of Cyber Knights are natural minor psychics. Is this correct? Also, are the natural Master Psionic Cyber Knights like potential Mind Melters that did not fully develop their psychic skills and became Cyber Knights instead?

There are three levels of psionics besides 'head blind'....

Minor
Major
Master

Master psi's are always their own class.
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That CKs in RUE can have a Master level saving throw and extra powers seams to be over doing it in powering up the class. Even thou I recognize that 'some heroes' might have above above average abilities. But I think the %s are wrong in that table. With the master psi option having too much of a chance of happening. Since the change it is more likely to be psychic, then not, it should of been change to the correct label for a Psychic Character Class...PCC.

Mack wrote:

(SHIFTY) wrote:Actually I was more talking about rolling on the psychic determination table for the Cyber Knight OCC. Not multiclassing. It seems like the majority of Cyber Knights are natural minor psychics. Is this correct?

Since at the minimum, all CK's have three powers (Sword, Shield, and Meditation) I'd say yes. However, whether they were all "natural minor psychics" or gained those abilities through the CK's unique training program isn't really explained.

Actually it is, explained. That is to note that 'even if you're -not- psychic on your own, the training regimen of the CK's is enough to instill those three based powers. Which indicates you had a glimmer of psychic power, even if you can't do anything -but- those three.

Those that can't produce those three minimum, can't be Cyberknights, and thus go into the Squires or reserves. (People of other OCCs that often travel with the CK's) These are spoken about and discussed at some length in the CK book.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

(SHIFTY) wrote:Actually I was more talking about rolling on the psychic determination table for the Cyber Knight OCC. Not multiclassing. It seems like the majority of Cyber Knights are natural minor psychics. Is this correct? Also, are the natural Master Psionic Cyber Knights like potential Mind Melters that did not fully develop their psychic skills and became Cyber Knights instead?

There are three levels of psionics besides 'head blind'....

Minor
Major
Master

Master psi's are always their own class.
-----------
That CKs in RUE can have a Master level saving throw and extra powers seams to be over doing it in powering up the class. Even thou I recognize that 'some heroes' might have above above average abilities. But I think the %s are wrong in that table. With the master psi option having too much of a chance of happening. Since the change it is more likely to be psychic, then not, it should of been change to the correct label for a Psychic Character Class...PCC.

Spoiler:

(As one that is OCD about words, & sees PB was stupid in their mis-application of their job class label to everything but mandatory racial classes starting with RUE, Don't bother trying to argue that I'm wrong when calling a class ....correctly... a PCC.)

See..... thing is. You're wrong.

Because the book directly says they can be Master psychics, 10% of them are.

I mean we could use a lot more words, but... you're just wrong. First you assumed people were talking about multi classing when they were not and now you're trying to change course and simply shrug and say the book is wrong.

It's very clear. Not only are some CK Master psychics, they give special rules for the ones that are. If it was a misprint and they only meant Minor and Major..... they wouldn't have special rules FOR the Master level ones included in the write up. As there -are- special rules for Master level psychic CK's, then it's very clear that they're intended to be there.

In theory you can stack it even higher. Have your Master level psychic CK go to Psyscape and train for 10 years and open up the overlay for psyscape powers as well. This is mini-maxing but a possibility that's directly noted in the Psyscape book. That it's not easy but living in Psyscape for 10-30 years and training you can achieve their level of mastery. (And it's a pretty safe bet of the minute amount of CK's that have done this that a huuuuuuuuge percentage are choosing their Psi sword as the power they're getting double damage on. If you're going to Mini Max. that's what you're aiming for)

So... for the person trying for such. They just tack 10 more years on their character history and they're good to go with that addon/overlay to an already master level psychic CK.

Remember as I quoted you don't even HAVE to roll that 10% chance(To be master). You can simply pick it if you like. (And your GM agrees)

Pepsi Jedi wrote:[

See..... thing is. You're wrong.

,...snip

Please reread my post to see how you messed up with your post.

I will say that the 1st thing I stated was the general types of the different types of Psychics. It is what is after that which you need to reread.
You know what they say about the exceptions.....

Pepsi Jedi wrote:This is a game where "Vagabonds" have tens of thousands of dollars in equipment and weapons that could core a modern day battle tank with one pull of the trigger.

Vagabonds shouldn't be underestimated, they've always been adventurers. Don't let the lack of attribute requirements fool you: not just any villager has what it takes to become a vagabond. Amassing wealth enough to go adventure is a big accomplishment.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Dragons can polymorph into the size of a cat and rip the legs off of robots and use them to beat people into paste

You shouldn't stay stuff like that until we actually get rules for ripping off legs and damage for using limbs as improvised weapons.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The character cna create an instant light saber in their own palm for unlimited duration

Imagine how unnerving it must be to shake hands with a cyber-knight, to hug one, to even sit across a table from one.
I guess that'd apply to anyone with supernatural PS too.
When you actually think about this, the mass human paranoia which makes the CS possible is very believable.

A lot of the dangers could apply if you have concealed vibro-knives or laser wands but at least you might use a skill to detect those, or maybe have metal detectors, or require eating dinner shirtless so there's no sleeves to hide a knife up. Cyber-Knights and MD-punchers can't be stopped that way.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:it's a pretty safe bet of the minute amount of CK's that have done this that a huuuuuuuuge percentage are choosing their Psi sword as the power they're getting double damage on

not RAW since it's an OCC ability not a Super Psi (nor could Amaki specify their own unique swords) but they could specify their Psi-Shield or one of the master psi they gain at higher levels though

allowance of this tends to happen under the "but my Burster has no master to double" floating of it to class powers as house rule