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The values for available skills often vary across different Palladium settings.

Consider Cook. In Palladium Fantasy and After the Bomb, the base skill value is listed as 30%+5% per level of experience. In Nightbane and Rifts the value is 35%+5%. In Ninjas & Superspies the base skill value is 50%+6% per level, but states this value can apply to an individual cuisine. What the latter might suggest in the situation of a certified pâtissier cooking over a campfire is left undetermined, but one might presume they could figure out something.

Has anyone in the past compiled a resource on this? While this could clearly be exploited for power gaming, e.g. A Shifter wanting to make sure their child gets the finest Multiversal education, there might be some fun setting conceits that arise organically from the comparisons. Perhaps the difference in Cook skill values reflect Fantasy's somewhat less refined cooking traditions, or how in After the Bomb dishes often are made by cooks unable to eat what they're serving another species.

There is one in the Rifter 0. (fan PDF via DTRPG)
However, unless it was updated, it is at least 15 years old.

I've been working on it off an on for a couple years. It's still very much a work in progress. I got started because there were so many different skills, and even characters, in other games that applicable but weren't in the one I was playing. The other reason is because some books mention skills but I can't find them, or they aren't actually listed. Add in that there's so many books, I didn't want to spend hours and hours hunting for things. Unfortunately, Rifter #0 wasn't that much help. It missed a whole lot of skills.

One thing I've found with my project is that Skill values and bonuses don't just change between games. Sometimes they can change in the same game. I just figure it's do to a difference in education and training. Not every school is as good as the other.

You're right, in that a power gamer might try to exploit it by bouncing all over to learn from the best schools but doing so takes time. At least a few months each. So I don't let that bother me too much. I think a bigger loophole is with skills being in different categories' and that different games have different categories. That could let someone take a skill they normally wouldn't be allowed to. I try not to let that bother me though.

Sambot wrote:You're right, in that a power gamer might try to exploit it by bouncing all over to learn from the best schools but doing so takes time. At least a few months each. So I don't let that bother me too much. I think a bigger loophole is with skills being in different categories' and that different games have different categories. That could let someone take a skill they normally wouldn't be allowed to. I try not to let that bother me though.

I think that if you have to travel to a different dimension to learn the skill in a different category, I'd be good with it.
Not a huge amount of skills that would be all that unbalancing, certainly not compared to any number of other kinds of quest rewards characters might get.

That's really interesting, Sambot. Like a lot of us I have notions towards a Palladium heartbreaker, and am glad to see that addressing the skill system is important to others. You mentioned an issue with skills being in different categories depending on setting. Do any good examples of such come to mind? Right now the main thing I've got is how Splicers has Transportation as a combination of Horsemanship and Pilot, and has an overarching W.P. Modern Weapons which I'd argue is justified.

If I had my druthers the skill system might take into account conceits based upon which dimension the players are within. For example, a game based on the current Earth would have more options within the sciences than, say, a four color Golden Age comic book world. I'm undecided on how best to represent Professor Polymath from the latter performing skills in the former. I look at it as akin to how some pilot OCCs have a general facility with piloting stuff, instead of where a starship pilot is confounded by a rowboat. The main issue is how to make a specialized scientist not feel shortchanged if they take a rift to New Excelsior.

Any work on your skill project that you'd be interested in sharing would be joyfully received.

You also have to remember that the skills in each game are limited to the knowledge base of that game. As such a mech eng. of PF will confer working of wood and stone for building materials while the same in a modern game setting would confer knowledge of metal and concrete.

As for player that wants to use skills from the different PB Games in one character, it is you the GM that would have to allow this before the char is made.

The way I do it is: the only time to import a skill from another game is when that skill does not exist in the game the char is being made for. Otherwise the player has to make the char from the skills list from the Game the char is being made for. So a Changling being made for the HU Game, as a native to that game world, they would use the HU skills.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think that if you have to travel to a different dimension to learn the skill in a different category, I'd be good with it.
Not a huge amount of skills that would be all that unbalancing, certainly not compared to any number of other kinds of quest rewards characters might get.

I'm okay with it too as long as the character spent the time there needed to learn the skill.

Curbludgeon wrote:That's really interesting, Sambot. Like a lot of us I have notions towards a Palladium heartbreaker, and am glad to see that addressing the skill system is important to others. You mentioned an issue with skills being in different categories depending on setting. Do any good examples of such come to mind? Right now the main thing I've got is how Splicers has Transportation as a combination of Horsemanship and Pilot, and has an overarching W.P. Modern Weapons which I'd argue is justified.

One thing that comes to mind is Read Sensory Equipment (Read Sensory Instruments or Sensory Equipment or Radar/Sonar Operation). Some games put them in the Communications Category. Others put them in Pilot or Pilot Related. AtB has it in Pilot, Rifts RPG has it in Pilot Related, and Rifts UE has it in both.

Horsemanship is another good example. Rifts RPG has it in Pilot. Rifts UE has it in Cowboy. Splicers has it in Transportation. BtS 2E has it in Horsemanship.

I'm okay with some skills being in multiple categories. I would think that Military Weapons Proficiencies would be in the Military Category. While they do belong under the Weapons Proficiencies Category too, they should be a sub-set so that they can be excluded from the average civilian.

If I had my druthers the skill system might take into account conceits based upon which dimension the players are within. For example, a game based on the current Earth would have more options within the sciences than, say, a four color Golden Age comic book world. I'm undecided on how best to represent Professor Polymath from the latter performing skills in the former. I look at it as akin to how some pilot OCCs have a general facility with piloting stuff, instead of where a starship pilot is confounded by a rowboat. The main issue is how to make a specialized scientist not feel shortchanged if they take a rift to New Excelsior.

That's one reason I'd prefer more skills being allowed and even revising some skills and emphasizing Skill Penalties more. Driving is a pretty general skill. Driving Manual Transmissions is more specific. Most people I would say have the Pilot Automobile: Automatic Transmission. A few would have Pilot Automobile: Manual Transmission. They could drive the other but they'd have penalties. Then there'd be some who would have just Pilot Automobile and switch back and forth without penalty but the skill percentage might might increase slower.

Any work on your skill project that you'd be interested in sharing would be joyfully received.

Right now nothings complete. I keep restarting but I can try to send it if you can open up old Excel files. The one I'm using is from Office 97.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You also have to remember that the skills in each game are limited to the knowledge base of that game. As such a mech eng. of PF will confer working of wood and stone for building materials while the same in a modern game setting would confer knowledge of metal and concrete.

Not only the knowledge base of the game but the knowledge base of the region they're from in a game. A CS Grunt is going to have different knowledge than a Grunt from Cordoba even though the latter uses the former as a base. Other things like in your example would come under skill penalties and I think differing skill percentages.

A PF Engineer can become an expert faster as they don't have as much to learn than BtS Engineer. So the base skill percentage for the BtS Engineer would be lower because they have more to learn and master. The penalties for working out of their comfort zone would be less though as they have a wider range of knowledge. The PF Engineer may understand the basics of that the BtS Engineer is doing but they'd be lost on the details so their penalties would be greater.

As for player that wants to use skills from the different PB Games in one character, it is you the GM that would have to allow this before the char is made.

The way I do it is: the only time to import a skill from another game is when that skill does not exist in the game the char is being made for. Otherwise the player has to make the char from the skills list from the Game the char is being made for. So a Changling being made for the HU Game, as a native to that game world, they would use the HU skills.

I agree. Characters should use the skills and categories of the game they're in, unless they don't exist. The problem is that skills and category's change between games. What character has the Spatial Skills Category listed? Do I use the Jury-Rig Skill from it or from Technical? Its one on the reasons I think a skill book with more detailed conversions would be nice.

Yes, there are unique skills categories that are in one game and not in another. Best choices as a GM. But if it is a choice between taking the skill from a unique skills category or from one that is in all the games...I would ""tend"" to go with the one NOT from the unique skills category.
e.g.:As in going with the JR from the technical category rather that the spatial one.

And I would be leery of using a skill that is unique to a race, outside that race.
e.g.: not letting a human take the read Body language skill of from ATB Pleasure bunny.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, there are unique skills categories that are in one game and not in another. Best choices as a GM. But if it is a choice between taking the skill from a unique skills category or from one that is in all the games...I would ""tend"" to go with the one NOT from the unique skills category.
e.g.:As in going with the JR from the technical category rather that the spatial one.

And I would be leery of using a skill that is unique to a race, outside that race.
e.g.: not letting a human take the read Body language skill of from ATB Pleasure bunny.

Sometimes there's unique categories inside the same game, but I agree. If the skill is in a category that can be selected from, use that one. Not all OCCs have that category though or the skills aren't put in a category. In those cases we have to guess. With the Spatial Category, only a few characters can select from that category. All the skills appear to be in Technical only the Technical Mining and Salvage skills are more for on a planet while the Spatial ones are clearly written for space. I think they should be in the Technical Category, which is where I've put them, but officially?

I agree that some exclusive skills, and even skills that involve senses, should have a good reason before being selected. If they are allowed it's usually with a penalty. Like a Human with Body Language skill isn't going to read a person's body language as well as a Pleasure Bunny.

Another +1 for Drew_Kitty's statement that GM and players need to sitdown to agree on specifics before character generation. (probably one MAIN rulebook, with anything outside at GM discretion)..

Power-gamers can also exploit differences in bonuses granted by the Physical Skill catagory depending on which rulebook is used. Acrobatics might grant +1 to P.P. in one rulebook, but +1d4 to P.P. in another.

Hand-to-Hand Skills and weapon skills (W.P.) also vary from book to book. Back in the early 2000s I made an excel spreadsheet totaling combat bonuses for BASIC, EXPERT and MARTIAL ARTS styles for each of the rulebooks I had: Heroes Unlimited (1st ed revised), Robotech (1st ed) and Macross II, plus Rifts and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles borrowed from a friend.

Houserules are definately advised for GMs pulling multiple rulebooks together.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:snip... Otherwise the player has to make the char from the skills list from the Game the char is being made for. ...snip

foilfodder wrote:Another +1 for Drew_Kitty's statement that GM and players need to sitdown to agree on specifics before character generation. (probably one MAIN rulebook, with anything outside at GM discretion)..

I sort of said that already. With different words.