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Is there one in any of the books at all? Or in a Rifter?

There is the Tinkerer, but I can't remember which issue of the rifter it is in.

Northern hinter lands.
--artisan
--fletcher
--blacksmith

Eric42 wrote:There is the Tinkerer, but I can't remember which issue of the rifter it is in.

Rifter #10 the Magic of Science by Greg Diaczyk

Thanks people, although I was hoping more for a DnD type Artificer to be honest, or even some form of enchanter.

I guess I will have have use PF or DnD to cobble something together.

a mystic item crafter is what you meant? There are only two of those in the PF game's canon. And they are non-stat'ed NPC classes.

Fan made ones.... the one I made and posted...-->. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=172222
Which might work as the stat'ing out of one of the two I mentioned above.

Well, isn't that essentially an alchemst?

-Vek
"Someone who makes magic items, right?"

Veknironth wrote:Well, isn't that essentially an alchemst?

-Vek
"Someone who makes magic items, right?"

Not at all.
An Alchemists make magical mixtures - such as a paste that makes you invulnerable, or magical firebombs, or potion of healing.

An Enchanter charges items with magical spells such as cloak of invisibility, a sword that bursts into flame that kind of thing.

An Artificer mixes magic and technology. So instead of a musket that fires balls of lead, it might fire balls charged with different spells, or even a fire ball, or lightning bolt.

They are all completely different things.

Those definitions are kind of arbitrary, e.g. enchanters are described as focused on charm-style effects as often as they are enchanting items. Regardless, they'd largely fit under the ambit of the NPC Palladium Fantasy Alchemist.

I'd consider porting over the Scathach Druid from Rifts England, and incorporate some of the items detailed under the Mystic Kuznya from Rifts Mystic Russia. Alternatively you could use the Eco-Wizard from Rifts Dinosaur Swamp. The Soulcrafter from Rifts Vampire Sourcebook is another NPC class, which happens to be great at creating weapons and armor with magical capabilities, but at the cost of unseemly amounts of sapient sacrifice.

Rogerd wrote:

Veknironth wrote:Well, isn't that essentially an alchemst?

-Vek
"Someone who makes magic items, right?"

Not at all.
An Alchemists make magical mixtures - such as a paste that makes you invulnerable, or magical firebombs, or potion of healing.

An Enchanter charges items with magical spells such as cloak of invisibility, a sword that bursts into flame that kind of thing.

An Artificer mixes magic and technology. So instead of a musket that fires balls of lead, it might fire balls charged with different spells, or even a fire ball, or lightning bolt.

They are all completely different things.

Alchemists in Palladium Fantasy make all kinds of magical items, from potions and scrolls to magic weapons and pit cloaks.

I've never been a big fan of "making things" classes, except in an NPC role... you might hire an alchemist to make you things, but actually making most magical items keeps you in one place for a while. Mind you, I like having rules for such things, so I have a framework to understand how long things will take, but I don't like people playing them. When people play classes like that, they usually want to use their abilities (surprise!), and that drags the game OR means that everyone has a lot of magical gear.

Curbludgeon wrote:Those definitions are kind of arbitrary, e.g. enchanters are described as focused on charm-style effects as often as they are enchanting items. Regardless, they'd largely fit under the ambit of the NPC Palladium Fantasy Alchemist.

I tend to distinguish between them as that is kind of how the Palladium system is organised. In the same way that both DnD / PF are. Even SWADE separates them.

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd consider porting over the Scathach Druid from Rifts England, and incorporate some of the items detailed under the Mystic Kuznya from Rifts Mystic Russia. Alternatively you could use the Eco-Wizard from Rifts Dinosaur Swamp. The Soulcrafter from Rifts Vampire Sourcebook is another NPC class, which happens to be great at creating weapons and armor with magical capabilities, but at the cost of unseemly amounts of sapient sacrifice.

Ta, I'll take a look at them they sound interesting.

Mark Hall wrote:I've never been a big fan of "making things" classes, except in an NPC role... you might hire an alchemist to make you things, but actually making most magical items keeps you in one place for a while.

Some players like the mix of magic and technology though, such they occupy a different place than say wizards.

Mark Hall wrote:Mind you, I like having rules for such things, so I have a framework to understand how long things will take, but I don't like people playing them. When people play classes like that, they usually want to use their abilities (surprise!), and that drags the game OR means that everyone has a lot of magical gear.

So an alchemist (under the description I have given) could carry various potions, salves, pills, but needs to ensure that they were well secured so should they get tossed around by say a giant expect one to possibly go off. I believe SWADE, particularly the Shaintar setting has an edge about a player having a surprise item they can pull out, but it can be used once per session. Kind of like the Doctor does in Doctor Who from time-to-time. But allowing a few magical items in a high magic setting should be no sweat really.

An alchemist keeping their one potion of healing for the big fight so that all players are fully healed should be okay.

Just make sure they do not go overboard with item creation. But then again it all depends on your realism of play. An example being Mythras which as a rule is fairly gritty, and realistic, to SWADE which is by design fairly cinematic. So it is all down to where your Palladium play falls into these two categories.

Rogerd wrote:

Veknironth wrote:Well, isn't that essentially an alchemst?

-Vek
"Someone who makes magic items, right?"

Not at all.
An Alchemists make magical mixtures - such as a paste that makes you invulnerable, or magical firebombs, or potion of healing.

An Enchanter charges items with magical spells such as cloak of invisibility, a sword that bursts into flame that kind of thing.

An Artificer mixes magic and technology. So instead of a musket that fires balls of lead, it might fire balls charged with different spells, or even a fire ball, or lightning bolt.

They are all completely different things.

The thing to keep in mind is that Palladium Terminology can be different than how another game line might use a Term, even internally Palladium Terminology can get a bit unclear. So technically by Palladium Terminology the Alchemist Class (PF2E pg245-6) fulfils the role of covered by several classes from other other lines (like D&D), which sort of makes sense given the requirements to become an Alchemist.

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd consider porting over the Scathach Druid from Rifts England, and incorporate some of the items detailed under the Mystic Kuznya from Rifts Mystic Russia. Alternatively you could use the Eco-Wizard from Rifts Dinosaur Swamp. The Soulcrafter from Rifts Vampire Sourcebook is another NPC class, which happens to be great at creating weapons and armor with magical capabilities, but at the cost of unseemly amounts of sapient sacrifice.

There is also the Rifts Techno-Wizard (Main/UE book, one of the early Rifters has TW variants) and Gizmoteer (WB9, more psionic than magical but). Some adaptions for these OCCs to get them to more properly fit a PF setting from a skills/equipment perspective might be necessary. The technology (and magical level) of the Palladium World will limit what can actually be done.

ShadowLogan wrote:
There is also the Rifts Techno-Wizard (Main/UE book, one of the early Rifters has TW variants) and Gizmoteer (WB9, more psionic than magical but). Some adaptions for these OCCs to get them to more properly fit a PF setting from a skills/equipment perspective might be necessary. The technology (and magical level) of the Palladium World will limit what can actually be done.

The techno wizard as presented in the Rifts original core book and in RUE is just a mage that makes magic items out of high tech parts. Even thou the descriptive text says it mixes technology and magic. Even so the setting if the PF game does not have the high level of magic that the Rifts game setting does. As such, looking at it as a gm, I wouldn't allow a TW class to exist. The char would ether end up as a Tinkerer, or an artificer class (see the three I listed above as examples) that might of become a forsaken mage to try to add magic to his/her devices.

The Akimi Stonemen (psi) Gizmoteer from SA2 is #1: a racial character class (RCC) limited to the race's classes it is presented in. #2: the mechanics of the item creation are broken, and #3: the SA2 book as a whole stands on the cusp of being disavowed as non-canon.
Better to use a well thought out fan psi builder that to use the (psi) gimoteer RCC from RWB SA2.
(why do I add the '(psi)' to it?...Because the Gizmoteer class is in the N&S book.)

As a GM I would be opposed to adding a mystic maker class that wasn't written for the setting of the PF game.

What else to consider is that the established alchemists would proactively oppose anyone that took their livelihood away by making "cheep" magic items. So a TW like char would be opposed and might get contracts out on him/her.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Akimi Stonemen (psi) Gizmoteer from SA2 is #1: a racial character class (RCC) limited to the race's classes it is presented in. #2: the mechanics of the item creation are broken, and #3: the SA2 book as a whole stands on the cusp of being disavowed as non-canon.
Better to use a well thought out fan psi builder that to use the (psi) gimoteer RCC from RWB SA2.
(why do I add the '(psi)' to it?...Because the Gizmoteer class is in the N&S book.)

While it is an RCC, sometimes Palladium terminology use is not the best (ex. Amaki Duelist RCC that immediately precedes the Gizmoteer RCC, is more properly considered an OCC since "trusted humans" can also take the class), but there are a few other references that suggest a similar psi-builder classes exist in Rifts (WB1o in the Vernulian entry and WB12, but details are very light). I agree using this OCC/RCC straight is not recommended for PF, but it would provide a starting point for what one could look like.

Factor in PF's own "Island at the Edge of the World" and its Psionic stuff, a psionic builder is certainly possible.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The techno wizard as presented in the Rifts original core book and in RUE is just a mage that makes magic items out of high tech parts. Even thou the descriptive text says it mixes technology and magic. Even so the setting if the PF game does not have the high level of magic that the Rifts game setting does. As such, looking at it as a gm, I wouldn't allow a TW class to exist. The char would ether end up as a Tinkerer, or an artificer class (see the three I listed above as examples) that might of become a forsaken mage to try to add magic to his/her devices.

I have to disagree about needing high tech parts based on several TW examples that show it doesn't have to be high tech at all, but can be very low tech:
-TW Wingboard (RMB pg94)
-Magic Optic System (RMB pg96, )
-Psionic Mind Shield (RMB pg96, )
-TW Flaming Sword (RMB pg96, BoM pg319)
-Lightning Rod (RMB pg96, BoM pg320)
-Mystic Power Armor (RMB pg96, the short description makes it sound like it's a suit of enchanted plate armor made from crystals)
-Englands Nexus Knights use TW (per BoM pg318-9) Lance, Sword, Shield, Helms
-Battle Fury and Deathbringer Swords (BoM pg37)
-Whip of Pain (BoM pg322)
-Shadow Cloak (BoM pg333)
-Thieves Gloves (BoM pg333)
-Glittermount TW Horse (BoM pg340, also in WB14 pg218)
-Windjammer TW Frigate (BoM pg339 or SB4 pg125, which is a sailing frigate) or other sailing boats (also on BoM pg339)
-MercOps (pg142-3) has a TW Crossbow Bolt, Halbred (pg143-4) and another set of Goggles and Helmet (pg144-5)

All show that it doesn't have to be as a base high tech, some of it might be to advanced for PF technologically speaking and some of the descriptions could be seen as Psionic Tech converted to magic tech (IotEotW). Almost all of them would not seem out of place in spirit of the setting (the Windjammer might be to large) given known examples of enchanted items found in the main book.

Rogerd wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I've never been a big fan of "making things" classes, except in an NPC role... you might hire an alchemist to make you things, but actually making most magical items keeps you in one place for a while.

Some players like the mix of magic and technology though, such they occupy a different place than say wizards.

Yes, but, as a general rule, I think they are done poorly.

For example, the Pathfinder Alchemist class is, in theory, carrying several explosive potions with them every day, that they're going to throw at bad guys. Each day, they create these more or less ex nihilo... they don't need to get any ingredients, containers, or the like, despite the fact that they're supposedly making potions. They're basically reskinning spellcasting is all, not making an actual "potion maker", just "dude whose spells are supposed to be potions."

Or, for a Palladium version, look at the Scathach Druid. If they don't have a chance to sit down and make things... some of which take months to create... there's not a lot to them.

Throw in that Palladium Fantasy is a pretty tech-backward world, and I'm not so sure an artificer has a big place there.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Factor in PF's own "Island at the Edge of the World" and its Psionic stuff, a psionic builder is certainly possible.

Which brings it back to...I'd rather use/someone use a well written fan Psi builder PCC rather that trying to use the pi omicon sigma in SA2.

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The techno wizard as presented in the Rifts original core book and in RUE is just a mage that makes magic items out of high tech parts..

I have to disagree about needing high tech parts based on several TW examples that show it doesn't have to be high tech at all, but can be very low tech:
-TW Wingboard (RMB pg94)
-Magic Optic System (RMB pg96, )
-Psionic Mind Shield (RMB pg96, )
-TW Flaming Sword (RMB pg96, BoM pg319)
-Lightning Rod (RMB pg96, BoM pg320)
-Mystic Power Armor (RMB pg96, the short description makes it sound like it's a suit of enchanted plate armor made from crystals)
-Englands Nexus Knights use TW (per BoM pg318-9) Lance, Sword, Shield, Helms
-Battle Fury and Deathbringer Swords (BoM pg37)
-Whip of Pain (BoM pg322)
-Shadow Cloak (BoM pg333)
-Thieves Gloves (BoM pg333)
-Glittermount TW Horse (BoM pg340, also in WB14 pg218)
-Windjammer TW Frigate (BoM pg339 or SB4 pg125, which is a sailing frigate) or other sailing boats (also on BoM pg339)
-MercOps (pg142-3) has a TW Crossbow Bolt, Halbred (pg143-4) and another set of Goggles and Helmet (pg144-5)
.

Wingboard....the one in the RMB might qualify....but all the others just replace a broom with wing of a board wing in the equation "broom + fly spell= flying transport"
the rest of those you mentioned (I'm Excluding the crossbow cause I don't think I have that book anymore) are examples of magic items made out of tech bits and parts.

A real integrating of tech and magic might look like adding the Magic Opitic system to a multi-optic goggles/helmet.

To see a good example of a TW device search for "The White Rabbit's Watch" in the Magic & psi forum.

I have a list of minor things that players can enchant a weapon with using magical ingredients in an oil, but on the whole i ask the players

Who do you think makes better items/weapons, you, who have been out killing monsters, walking/riding hundreds of miles and generally adventuring with a stop at a smithy here or there.
The guy who works in his smithy day in and day out.

or who would you get to fix your car.
The mechanic that works on your type of car constantly, or the person who works on a car 2 -3 times a year for maybe 1-2 weeks tops.

kiralon wrote:Who do you think makes better items/weapons, you, who have been out killing monsters, walking/riding hundreds of miles and generally adventuring with a stop at a smithy here or there.
The guy who works in his smithy day in and day out.

or who would you get to fix your car.
The mechanic that works on your type of car constantly, or the person who works on a car 2 -3 times a year for maybe 1-2 weeks tops.

I tell players in my games that anything made with crafting type skills are going to be along the "gifted amateur" level (depending on available tools, workspace, quality of materials, etc.). If they want to compete with people that spend their life doing something, then they will need to use the optional OCCs and be a scholar (leaning towards the research side of things) or a merchant (leaning towards the sales side of things) and have their character's life revolving around a certain craft.

As a side note, eventually I really would like to run a game based almost entirely on traveling on a trade route. One of my favorite L'Amour books was "The Walking Drum", which includes some travel with a large caravan across part of Europe (mostly in the east).


If I was going to add any sort of crafting of magic items, there would have to be some sort of cost to having that sort of capability. I expect that what is a reasonable trade off would vary quite a bit between individual GMs. If you run a fairly high (availability) magic world, then it might not mean much to give some magical crafting abilities to players with little to no impact on whatever their normal OCC might be. I tend to run lower on the availability of magic and items. Since it would have a larger impact on the game, I would require more of a trade off to balance the extra utility.

@drewkitty ~..~
re: Gizmoteer
I would think that any fan built class would want to take into considerations official stuff that came before it so as not to make the same (or worse) mistakes.

re: TW
Really if one is looking to get magic/tech combo in the setting, it is already present given some Alchemist items combine Technology with magic effects (and some I think in the main book are just tech). Eye of the Cat/Eagle (both from PF2E pg256) are enchanted monocles (technology). Environmental Tent (PF2E pg258), the tent is an example of technology. Gryphon Claws (PF2E pg258) or any magic clothing really given technology is what allows the production. Flying Broom (PF2E pg259) as a broom is technology, or Magic Restraints (PF2E pg259-60) involve chains (technology) and a lock (technology).

A Wizard with the "Talisman" Invocation (or a variant of) might even be able to meet the needs of the player wanting this type of character* in setting if they can use the invocation to "store" magic in an item (it doesn't stop functioning as that item near as I can tell). The item also has to meet the "Talisman" requirements (restrictions on material and size), but in theory it would work since it is not nearly as restrictive as Wards regarding items (I bring up Wards since mystic symbols being added are a known factor in TW, but those TW symbols/wards do not appear to follow the same rules as regular Wards).

*since in setting the only example class is NPC only, unlike Rifts

ShadowLogan wrote:@drewkitty ~..~
re: Gizmoteer
I would think that any fan built class would want to take into considerations official stuff that came before it so as not to make the same (or worse) mistakes.

...

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Fan made ones.... the one I made and posted...-->. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=172222
Which might work as the stat'ing out of one of the two I mentioned above.

Yup...did that.
I did pay attention to the flaming bag on the porch one from SA2 as an example of what not to do.
As to what I did user to be close to within canon the Three 'Psi Mechanic's and the crystal mage.

Which was the second psi-builder character type I've written up. the 1st one was more based on the TW creation rules. Which turn meant it was a long write up to the point that the 1st guy I showed it to said it was clunky. (others who have look at my 1st one said they liked it.) Which I too to mean there was too much/complicated for the regular role-player. Im pretty sure that my text was about as long as the TW text in RUE is.
(if you want a copy PM me your e-mail...it is too long for the PMs.)

So I sort know from experience that the SA2 text was trying to imitate what the TWs had (pre-RUE). But even as it was the text was too short and the writer didn't use his OCD to track down problem areas. otherwise the text would of been significantly longer and clunky.

In fantasy if you have someone that wants to be a maker class just make em a conjurer and use their skill rolls for quality level of item.

eg
Kevin the Konjurer wants a sword, has various smithing skills and wants to conjure a +2 damage sword, when he creates the item get him to make a secret blacksmithing roll, and let him get a bonus for every %20 below his skill he rolls, so to get +2 dam he has to roll %40 lower than what it says he has to roll to succeed. Over his skill gives negatives and he cant see the roll so it takes a successful weapon quality check to know how good or bad the item is.

I'm currently infatuated with adapting the Ninjas and Superspies Gizmoteer (with elements of Rifter 13's Techno-Shifter) to depict a magical crafter whom generally requires an external source of energy to empower their creations. The B.G.C.S. the class possesses is an easy way to handle prototyping and construction. The only real task is detailing the specific skill programs available. That requires an accounting of the different types of item available in Palladium games, tacking on a handful of relevant skills to each, and determining which creation methods should cost more than one skill program selection to acquire.

As an example, the Mystic Herbology of the Woodland Druids could cost 2 Skill Programs, and include the following at ~+15%:
Mystic Herbology
Brewing:Medicinal
Holistic Medicine
Gardening
Botany
Carpentry
Identify Plants & Fruits
Preserve Food

Something helpful to this process are the different varieties of Gizmoteer, and what they exchange. The Tinker gets 5 Gizmoteer Programs and 1 Other; the Dreamer 3 Gizmoteer, 2 Other, and a Martial Arts Form; and the Gizoid 4 Gizmoteer, 1 Other, and an accruing amount of cybernetics.

When flushed out this straightforward method could be used to model with one class such disparate concepts as an assassin proficient in poisons/dusts/fumes, a parapsychologist reverse-engineering psychic crystal technology, an herbalist archer, a samurai blacksmith, a scientist using computer aided modeling to facilitate binding Entities within their sensory implants, a hacker spreading demonic curses instead of viruses, or a conventional demolitions expert able to incorporate elemental micro-rifts.

I love crafting classes, and Palladium Fantasy can be fun to manage with them.

If you take a skill-only approach with no magic, there's quite a bit you can come up with. Leather-working rangers can craft their own armor with the right selection (tailoring, skin/prepare hides, leather working). A dwarf blacksmith can make superior weapons, armor, and traps. Fletchers can make superior arrows. Mariners can be excellent shipwrights and carpenters. It could be interesting to have a craftsmen-class campaign where the party is motivated by gaining knowledge of crafting secrets, acquiring special crafting materials, and/or creating great works that combine their skills.

If you want magic-crafting O.C.C.'s with a moderate level of power, Rifts: England is a great resource. The Scathach, Herbologist, and Filidh are great their own, and a combination of the three could be particularly potent, as they could pool their P.P.E. for more powerful enchantments. The Scathach is a capable fighter and an excellent mystic smith of weapons, utility items, and arrows. The herbologist is great for shaping/crafting wood and plants and growing ingredients, and has some great abilities to fight and evade in the woods. The Filidh is a very capable fighter and a good bard/performer to boot who can help open doors. The Stone Master from Atlantis and Secrets of the Atlanteans could also work well with such a group. Adventures with this combination of O.C.C.'s could revolve around finding and enchanting special herbs/materials and finding ways to get enough P.P.E. to enchant them.

If you want high-power magic crafting, you can import Mystic Kuznya from Mystic Russia, Bio-mancers from South America or Lemuria, Rune Smiths from Pantheons of the Megaverse, Cyclops (native) or Greater Cyclops from Pantheons of the Megaverse. Materials are somewhat less of a concern for most of these classes; the list of what they need is shorter. Personally, I'd steer clear of this approach in Palladium Fantasy.

I recommend merps herblore book, its got heaps of magical plants that do weird and wonderful things too,
Also you can say that materials left in a nexus for x period of time can do y if integrated with an item because magic.
Then all the party has to do is leave a ruby, some silver wire nd some gold wire in a nexus for a certain time, then come back and hammer it all together with some skill to make a magic necklace for example. Make each ingredient have good and bad magical effects and then use the skill rolls see if good and bad or both stay in the item. Do it over multiple rolls and let the players get good and bad effects on the items they make and that will differentiate between player made goods and expert made goods.

edit: Let them also buy things that make it easier to keep good powers but increases the chance of no powers, things that make it easier to get rid of bad powers but can increase the number of bad powers and items that can increase the numbers of slots for powers but makes it harder to get the good powers. Then over multiple rolls they can make all sorts of interesting items. I recommend the wild magic 10000 effects netbook for side effects, and just generally check materials for current things written about them. My players quite enjoyed it and enjoyed the good but flawed items. cough morrowind potion making cough

Curbludgeon wrote:I'm currently infatuated with adapting the Ninjas and Superspies Gizmoteer (with elements of Rifter 13's Techno-Shifter) to depict a magical crafter whom generally requires an external source of energy to empower their creations. The B.G.C.S. the class possesses is an easy way to handle prototyping and construction. The only real task is detailing the specific skill programs available. That requires an accounting of the different types of item available in Palladium games, tacking on a handful of relevant skills to each, and determining which creation methods should cost more than one skill program selection to acquire.

I gotta say, if you're going with a crafting class, that's going to be a good way to go.

My inclination, rather than reintroducing skill programs, would be to have the BGCS cover the making of things from diverse skills that you select otherwise.

So, if I have Carpentry and Sewing, I can make things that use those skills. If I throw in Art, I can make it pretty. The BGCS becomes the skill of "how can I combine these skills".