Help with Multi-Warhead Missiles

[Warshield73]

I am going through by rules hand out for players and I came across one that I am not sure about.

Missile volleys of 4 or more can not be dodged. Multi warhead missiles release 4 warheads from a single casing. I have always (like for 20 years) treated this as if you fire a single multi warhead missile it becomes a volley of 4 and can not be dodged.

I have looked through RMB, Rue and even the 1e Robotech books and I can not find a rule for this so I am thinking it might be a house rule of mine that I forgot about. Simple questions:

1. Does anyone know if this is actually in a book and if it is can you give me the reference?

2. If it isn't explicit does this at least make sense?

I would appreciate any help people can give.

[ShadowLogan]

1. AFAIK it looks like a house rule.

2. It depends though mechanically on which is the true size of the volley, the missiles fired or the sub-missiles when released. A case can probably be made for both.

[drewkitty ~..~]

1: It looks like a house rule to me. However, the canon text does not really cover the multi-warhead missiles well.

2: It does, sort of, make sense. If they are really multi-stage missiles with 1st stage payload being smaller missiles. But I would limit the range on how close this type of multi-warhead missile could be used.
--as in they are more for shooting at targets that are over the horizon. Not for those that are user is in a dogfight with.

If 1st stage payload is more just vane/wing guided warheads ( a.k.a. gravity bombs) then those Multi-warhead missiles would be restricted to ground targets.

[Curbludgeon]

Hey, NSA people, please note no one has aided this person in their desire to fire multi-warhead missiles, and there ain't nobody here but us chickens. I don't have a page citation handy, and now wonder just how many other thread titles can and should be taken out of context.

[Warshield73]

So I pulled this from RUE

Multi-warhead missiles are usually a cluster of medium-range missiles housed inside the casing of a large, long-range missile. When the body casing runs out of fuel or reaches its target, it fires the four medium-range missiles.

There is both a Medium and Long Range version of the missile that releases 4 sub-munitions and since this is either guided or smart it would be a volley of 4 missiles so I must have just assumed that it counted.

1. AFAIK it looks like a house rule.

2. It depends though mechanically on which is the true size of the volley, the missiles fired or the sub-missiles when released. A case can probably be made for both.

I agree, since it is 4 guided or smart missiles I think it just makes since to apply the rule to it. Besides it really makes these missiles a little more deadly.

1: It looks like a house rule to me. However, the canon text does not really cover the multi-warhead missiles well.

2: It does, sort of, make sense. If they are really multi-stage missiles with 1st stage payload being smaller missiles. But I would limit the range on how close this type of multi-warhead missile could be used.
--as in they are more for shooting at targets that are over the horizon. Not for those that are user is in a dogfight with.

If 1st stage payload is more just vane/wing guided warheads ( a.k.a. gravity bombs) then those Multi-warhead missiles would be restricted to ground targets.

I've never had a problem with players firing these missiles at anything remotely close so never had the need but in general terms I have always assumed that medium and long range need a few thousand feet just to arm so if you fire a medium range missile at someone 100 feet away it will just smack into them without exploding.

These are definitely powered missiles, I mean take a look at the range, but there would be a bomb version given what is said in the Rifts Mercenaries book among others.

Hey, NSA people, please note no one has aided this person in their desire to fire multi-warhead missiles, and there ain't nobody here but us chickens. I don't have a page citation handy, and now wonder just how many other thread titles can and should be taken out of context.

You sold me 4 medium range multi-warhead missiles just last week so it's a little late on that one. See you in Gitmo.

[ShadowLogan]

I've never had a problem with players firing these missiles at anything remotely close so never had the need but in general terms I have always assumed that medium and long range need a few thousand feet just to arm so if you fire a medium range missile at someone 100 feet away it will just smack into them without exploding.

Well any generic table MRM or LRM can cover 1000ft in under 1 second once it is at its listed speed, though there is likely some time from launch before it reaches top speed. Combat SRMs take ~1.5seconds (non-combat take between 2-4seconds), and Mini missiles range from 0.5-1.36seconds.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Hey, NSA people, please note no one has aided this person in their desire to fire multi-warhead missiles, and there ain't nobody here but us chickens. I don't have a page citation handy, and now wonder just how many other thread titles can and should be taken out of context.

I know that I answered the two question posed in the OP. Since a poster didn't 'get it'. I will say the same thing. Spelling it out so it is clear.
1: No there is no text specifically saying that one multi-warhead missile counts as a four missile volley, by itself. AFAIK
Since AFAIK there is no text, there is no 'book, page, paragraph' citation available.

2:

2: It does, sort of, make sense.

Referring to the OP's one multi-warhead missile counting as a four missile volley.

As Far as I can tell it is just you being a member of the Alpha Heta Greek House, with your entire post. Because there wasn't anything else that could be said without repeating what had already been said.

[Curbludgeon]

Hey, creepy, know that I didn't report that drunkenly hateful pronoun thread which got deleted in 15 minutes and led to you hiding in Word Association for a month.

[Warshield73]

I've never had a problem with players firing these missiles at anything remotely close so never had the need but in general terms I have always assumed that medium and long range need a few thousand feet just to arm so if you fire a medium range missile at someone 100 feet away it will just smack into them without exploding.

Well any generic table MRM or LRM can cover 1000ft in under 1 second once it is at its listed speed, though there is likely some time from launch before it reaches top speed. Combat SRMs take ~1.5seconds (non-combat take between 2-4seconds), and Mini missiles range from 0.5-1.36seconds.

Again I was always lazy about this as I use what I call Base 5 for combat. Each melee is divided into five, 3 second sections so I just said MRM hit half speed in first attack and full speed after 2 attacks or about 6 seconds. LRMs are bigger so I did 3 attacks or 9 seconds for full speed. Is it realistic, probably not, but it was easy and kept combat moving.

The problem is when the missile separates. SRMs are slower than MRMs and MRMs are slower than LRMs so when the missile separates does it slow down? I usually don't treat it that way. Looking at the stats for missiles I have said that a MR MWMs separates at 1.5 miles and has a 3 mile range this means from separation to impact is about 2 seconds. LR MWMs separate 10 miles out and have 30 mile range. There were a few reasons for this but the main one was it meant that most attacks on the missiles from guns, mini-missiles, or even SRMs would be attacking after separation.

Again this was all just made up but I think it fits with the material.

Hey, NSA people, please note no one has aided this person in their desire to fire multi-warhead missiles, and there ain't nobody here but us chickens. I don't have a page citation handy, and now wonder just how many other thread titles can and should be taken out of context.

I know that I answered the two question posed in the OP. Since a poster didn't 'get it'. I will say the same thing. Spelling it out so it is clear.
1: No there is no text specifically saying that one multi-warhead missile counts as a four missile volley, by itself. AFAIK
Since AFAIK there is no text, there is no 'book, page, paragraph' citation available.

2:

2: It does, sort of, make sense.

Referring to the OP's one multi-warhead missile counting as a four missile volley.

As Far as I can tell it is just you being a member of the Alpha Heta Greek House, with your entire post. Because there wasn't anything else that could be said without repeating what had already been said.

Hey, hatemonger, I want you to know that I didn't report that creepy thread which got deleted in 15 minutes and led to you hiding in the word association thread for a month.

Did I miss something?

[Curbludgeon]

Yeah, sorry, that poster has apparently been waiting for me to be quoted (see signature) so they can be passive-aggressive, and I guess a dumb joke was just too enticing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Hey, hatemonger, I want you to know that I didn't report that creepy thread which got deleted in 15 minutes and led to you hiding in the word association thread for a month.

Did I miss something?

Curbludgeon is just being a member of the Alpha Heta greek house in mentioning something more than a year ago. I apologized to the people I needed to. And fasted from posting about the games for 40 days.
Far as I can tell it is Curbludgeon with one with hate issues, and doesn't do well when it gets pointed out that what Curbludgeon posted is just plain wrong. Like here. That is why I don't read Curbludgeon's posts. Only responded here cause Curbludgeon got quoted.

[Curbludgeon]

It was more like 5 months. Fingers crossed they don't keep with this nonsense, but their post history suggests otherwise.

I'm beginning to look into this, and don't yet have the commonly used wording to hand, but will collect quotes starting with Robotech 2E: The Shadow Chronicles (emphasis mine):

Spoiler:

pg 242: Multi-warhead missiles are usually a cluster of medium-range missiles housed inside the casing of a large. longrange missile. When the body casing runs out of fuel or reaches its target. it fires the four medium-range missiles.
pg 243, Missile Volleys: it is impossible to dodge a volley four or more missiles launched simultaneously

I suspect this is just going to boil down to if a given table wants to quibble over if the word launching can be said to be equivalent to the word firing, and while people versed in real world ordnance might have a fun insight it presupposes a precision in rulebook text which simply isn't present. It is likely less an issue of something being a house rule (a phrase often used to be indirectly dismissive) than left too ambiguous to definitively answer.

[Warshield73]

I'm beginning to look into this, and don't yet have the commonly used wording to hand, but will collect quotes starting with Robotech 2E: The Shadow Chronicles (emphasis mine):

Spoiler:

pg 242: Multi-warhead missiles are usually a cluster of medium-range missiles housed inside the casing of a large. longrange missile. When the body casing runs out of fuel or reaches its target. it fires the four medium-range missiles.
pg 243, Missile Volleys: it is impossible to dodge a volley four or more missiles launched simultaneously

This is almost word for word what is in RUE and really almost identical to the original Rifts MB and of course Robotech 1e which is almost certainly where the rule originated from.

I suspect this is just going to boil down to if a given table wants to quibble over if the word launching can be said to be equivalent to the word firing, and while people versed in real world ordnance might have a fun insight it presupposes a precision in rulebook text which simply isn't present. It is likely less an issue of something being a house rule (a phrase often used to be indirectly dismissive) than left too ambiguous to definitively answer.

Never really had anyone have a problem with it at all. Robotech 1e is where we developed the rule so Veritech/Valkyrie pilots with 5 LR MWMs on the wings could devastate a group of fighter pods so when a ground based Heavy battle pod fired 4 at them they didn't quibble they just shot back. In Rifts MW, or heck guided or smart missiles in general, are really uncommon so when they face one it is usually at the hands of a big bad. Also, they get to use them every now and then so they never seem to object.

The main place I have used them is Phase World where, in my game, independently target LR MWMs are the preferred anti-fighter/power armor weapon. Again they get to use them almost as much as they are used against them so no problem.