Forums of the Megaverse®

I know, I preach it every day, color text =/= game mechanics. But what if they did?

Join me in a thought experiment.

What powers, abilities, vehicle descriptions, or similar would be Massively different if the color text was taken literally? What game mechanics would you apply?

Can hydrokinesis wring the water out of a living person? How about just their eyes? Does Manipulation of metals mean you can control the iron in someone's blood? How about using telekinesis to crush windpipes for instant-kills?[sup]1[/sup]


Be creative, I'll start.

From Heroes Unlimited:

Gravity manipulation.
For those unfamiliar, the power controls gravity, obviously, with the fun floating and bouncing and such. It can also be used offensively, and there's the rub.

The color text states the power increases the local gravity by 30-50x earth. The net effect in game mechanics is... a slow, maybe an immobilize, on one target at 50X gravity with significant, overwhelming penalties, and at 30X a slow and some major penalties to an area.

If color text = game mechanics, at 30 times gravity, you die.[sup]2[/sup] You, formerly 180lbs average, now weigh 5400 lbs. You fall down immediately, your bones are crushed by the weight of themselves and by the 4' fall you just took. You don't have time to worry about that, though, as your brain has collapsed into your skull and leaked out your nose, your internal organs popped under your weight, but that's good, as it stops you from suffocating trying to breathe under the thousands of pounds your chest now weighs.

At 50X, you weigh 9000 lbs. Everything is pulped. A human body doesn't come out looking, well, human after that.

So: CT=GM, This power is an AOE insta-kill, but given game mechanics, we can apply falling rules to the effect, treating the multiplier as a height multiplier for the fall instead of weight. A fall from standing is at most ~6, we can say 5' for ease of math, and say that the 50X effect inflicts similar damage to a 250' fall, or 25D6 SDC/HP. Those exposed to the AOE 30X effect fall and take 15D6.
Since this is a continuing effect CT=GM requires continued damage every round, and the physics/biology backs that up. I'd stick with 25D6/15D6 HP/melee (half damage on a save vs lethal poison, because I'm nice, save every round.) but at this point, I'd also add suffocation/drowning damage direct to HP every melee, and see how it works out.


My question, fellow GMs:
What insanity could you come up with if Color Text = Game Mechanics?






[sup]1[/sup]33-35lbs of force to crush a windpipe, per google, that's 10(ten) ISP worth of Telekinesis
[sup]2[/sup]You Die. https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.5124276
[sup]2[/sup]No, seriously, You Die. https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/Yu ... ilov.shtml

TK crushing a heart is one that is mentioned in a canon rifter article.

The power that I always reference is Transmutation. Turn into any element or basic compound. Okay, how about antimatter? Even if that's out. You can turn anything on a person into Potassium, which burns incredibly hot on contact with air. Magnesium too, if I recall. How about just water or air? your clothes, forever gone, your weapons and armor, all gone. The ground beneath you, Potassium. Everything is potassium, and there's no way to stop it.

There is no Text in the canon text that says ignore the descriptive text of anything.

As such any INFORMATION in the descriptive text applies to that class or race.
...Like how in the Titan Juicer class's descriptive text it informs you that this class isn't mystical in any way. This means that even though they are as strong as a dragon with the same PS score, they don't have true SNPS. They are only a normal Juicer writ stronger. Not a SN Being like the mega Juicer.
Yes, it is written in such a way that it doesn't directly say that. But it is there in the words when taken as a whole. Which is why there are arguments about it. Which is par for the course when talking about the writing of PB gamebooks.

Grav.M: I will have to agree that some of the descriptive text does not match the given stats/effects. And you pointed out a dooozy. But then again there are some descriptive texts (Nuclear warhead damage vs listed Megatonage, 2nd PW book) that nerf things.
Even these are par for the course when talking about the PB game book writing.

As to a MissNaming error....There is one in RBM which is totally stupid. The writer names a 'rocket mortar' ( a rocket launcher that fires rockets on a high arc to hit targets with indirect fire) with the name of a 'rocket powered mortar' (a mortar that moves via rocket motors.) It even shows a picture of a rocket mortar mounted on a triax bot/borg (don't remember which) in the system listing. (There is other grammatical stupidness in the RBM gamebook but I wont get into it them.)

Black Knight 2 from Triax.

Most armored vehicles in Rifts

Mages in Rifts

Butter (ball) Trolls would have a massive dodge bonus verse HtH & Grapple.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no Text in the canon text that says ignore the descriptive text of anything.

As such any INFORMATION in the descriptive text applies to that class or race.
...Like how in the Titan Juicer class's descriptive text it informs you that this class isn't mystical in any way. This means that even though they are as strong as a dragon with the same PS score, they don't have true SNPS. They are only a normal Juicer writ stronger. Not a SN Being like the mega Juicer.

Wow, that's a leap there, kitty. Just because color text said Titan juicers aren't magical, there's no game text invalidating their supernatural PS, nor nerfing it to be a second class SNPS just for it's origins.

Does it make sense? Sure. But from game terms, there's absolutely no difference in Titan juicer PS and the PS of, say, a Titan giant.

ITWastrel wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no Text in the canon text that says ignore the descriptive text of anything.

As such any INFORMATION in the descriptive text applies to that class or race.
...Like how in the Titan Juicer class's descriptive text it informs you that this class isn't mystical in any way. This means that even though they are as strong as a dragon with the same PS score, they don't have true SNPS. They are only a normal Juicer writ stronger. Not a SN Being like the mega Juicer.

Wow, that's a leap there, kitty. Just because color text said Titan juicers aren't magical, there's no game text invalidating their supernatural PS, nor nerfing it to be a second class SNPS just for it's origins.

Does it make sense? Sure. But from game terms, there's absolutely no difference in Titan juicer PS and the PS of, say, a Titan giant.

There was no 'Leap'. All I did was to read the Canon class Text and understood how to apply the information given, to the class as a whole.

The descriptive text was there to be read and understood since the JU gamebook was written. Don't blame me for actually understanding what was written. Even if other skipped reading the class text and applying the canon text there to what the sat's of the class mean.
(I do admit to being miffed at the writer for using a

The Text in the VK revised says that True SNPS has a "something extra" component. In the same gamebook it says that things made by mundane science don't have this 'something extra'.

So with the publishing of the VKr gamebook the deliberately stated rules catching up to the meaning of the canon text in the TJ class descriptive text.

No, I'm not saying that TJs can't arm wrestle Dragons and have a change of winning. What I am saying is that the canon text says that they just don't have that 'something extra' that let those with True SNPS fight vamps & were-people and hurt them with their hand to hand attacks.

I will admit that most descriptive texts don't tell the player how to look at the stats of the ______. ('____' = whatever the descriptive text is talking about.)
But with the TJ class the class descriptive text say that the writer took a short-cut with the class' str. stat. And the idea being presented is something slightly different than if you just looked at the class stats.

Sohisohi wrote:Butter (ball) Trolls would have a massive dodge bonus verse HtH & Grapple.

I miss Butter Troll... haven't licked.. I mean seen him since the last POH.

The Reshaper RCC (Nightlands sourcebook I think) would be far more useful to play. In the fluff, one fought the Nightlord leader and used its shape-changing power several times in the battle and put up a decent fight until he killed it. In the mechanics it takes something like an entire round to change shape.

ITWastrel wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no Text in the canon text that says ignore the descriptive text of anything.

As such any INFORMATION in the descriptive text applies to that class or race.
...Like how in the Titan Juicer class's descriptive text it informs you that this class isn't mystical in any way. This means that even though they are as strong as a dragon with the same PS score, they don't have true SNPS. They are only a normal Juicer writ stronger. Not a SN Being like the mega Juicer.

Wow, that's a leap there, kitty. Just because color text said Titan juicers aren't magical, there's no game text invalidating their supernatural PS, nor nerfing it to be a second class SNPS just for it's origins.

Does it make sense? Sure. But from game terms, there's absolutely no difference in Titan juicer PS and the PS of, say, a Titan giant.

The text says they have the "equivalent" of supernatural PS.
Which means it's not actually supernatural PS.
Which means that it functions just like supernatural PS in every way except being actually supernatural.

Which doesn't make a lick of sense, but there you are.

That isn't what the word equivalent means.

RBV1 pg13 could have been phrased more elegantly, but rather than implicitly creating an unnamed class of True SN PS, denying non-Supernatural Beings with Supernatural Strength such as the Titan Juicer is just fallaciously denying the antecedent.

Curbludgeon wrote:That isn't what the word equivalent means.

You don't say "equivalent" when you mean "actually."
Nobody says "1 meter is the equivalent of 1 meter," or "one glass of wine is the equivalent of one glass of wine," or "supernatural strength is the equivalent of supernatural strength."
That's not how the word is used.

The relevant quote, emphasis mine: Supernatural Strength does not mean the creature is, itself, a supernatural being, but rather that it has the strength equivalent of Supernatural Strength. This level of P.S. is common among Mega-Damage creatures and monsters from other worlds. Other animals may have ordinary P.S., the same as humans, or the equivalent of Augmented or Robotic Strength. Supernatural beings always have Supernatural P.S.

Please don't get hung up on how I removed the unnecessary clause. If the statement is not seen as a tautology clarifying earlier less exact usage (i.e. SN PS is the PS had by all SN beings) then it necessarily creates an undefined term. One interpretation maintains economy of language, the other pretends equivalence really means rough equivalence, which seems to mostly lend itself to feeding One True Fan nonsense.

As an aside I don't much truck with the A-word, insofar as its use is more often than not passive aggressive in the "Ackchyually..." sense.

Curbludgeon wrote:The relevant quote, emphasis mine: Supernatural Strength does not mean the creature is, itself, a supernatural being, but rather that it has the strength equivalent of Supernatural Strength.

Okay, that's clearer.

The problem is, that what you're describing is still nonsense, because Supernatural Strength is described as follows (RUE 285, and other places):
Simply put, supernatural beings are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw on arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence.

So.. what's the non-supernatural equivalent of defying the laws of physics?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Curbludgeon wrote:The relevant quote, emphasis mine: Supernatural Strength does not mean the creature is, itself, a supernatural being, but rather that it has the strength equivalent of Supernatural Strength.

Okay, that's clearer.

The problem is, that what you're describing is still nonsense, because Supernatural Strength is described as follows (RUE 285, and other places):
Simply put, supernatural beings are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw on arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence.

So.. what's the non-supernatural equivalent of [u]defying the laws of physics[/i]?

You're doing it again.
"Simply put, supernatural beings are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw on arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence."

That's a quote about supernatural beings, not any being with "Supernatural" PS. Simply having SNPS does NOT make you a Supernatural creature. Having SNPS does NOT require magic, hoodoo, or mojo. It's a game mechanic.

"Supernatural strength" is a Game Mechanic, which does not specifically confer the status of "Supernatural'. Game Mechanics are universally* applied to all characters and NPCs, and are written specifically to apply to the broadest rule situations.

There is no second-class SNPS because there is already a mechanic for lesser strengths. normal, extraordinary/enhanced, and robotic spring to mind quick. If there was a need for another PS class, don't you think the writers would have made a note about that aside from a sentence of color text in one OCC description? If the SNPS of a Titan juicer was somehow inferior to normal SNPS, or did not function as SNPS in ALL situations, someone would have written that into the Rules Text.


Best practice: Do not read between the lines and make up mechanics that don't exist to correct inconsistencies arising from descriptive text.


*almost universally

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The text says they have the "equivalent" of supernatural PS.
Which means it's not actually supernatural PS.
Which means that it functions just like supernatural PS in every way except being actually supernatural

When quoting me from other topics correctly the phrasing "mundane equivalent of SNPS", it does make sense in that when you add in the word 'mundane' to the word 'equivalent'. Which is different than meaning that is other than the word 'equivalent' means just by itself. (Isn't the English language wonderful? *sardonicism* How when you analyze a thought as a whole it is different than if you look at the words (or sentences) separately means something more than the parts.
)

Which when said in a way so everyone can understand in the context of the rifts game says: They can Arm Wrestle Dragons with a chance of winning, but doesn't have the SN 'something extra' that allows those with True SNPS to harm (with their hand to hand attacks) those beings that are invulnerable to mundane attacks.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The text says they have the "equivalent" of supernatural PS.
Which means it's not actually supernatural PS.
Which means that it functions just like supernatural PS in every way except being actually supernatural

When quoting me from other topics correctly the phrasing "mundane equivalent of SNPS", it does make sense in that when you add in the word 'mundane' to the word 'equivalent'.

Okay.
What's the mundane equivalent of "defying the laws of physics?"

ITWastrel wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Curbludgeon wrote:The relevant quote, emphasis mine: Supernatural Strength does not mean the creature is, itself, a supernatural being, but rather that it has the strength equivalent of Supernatural Strength.

Okay, that's clearer.

The problem is, that what you're describing is still nonsense, because Supernatural Strength is described as follows (RUE 285, and other places):
Simply put, supernatural beings are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw on arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence.

So.. what's the non-supernatural equivalent of defying the laws of physics[/i]?

You're doing it again.
"Simply put, supernatural beings are NOT human. They are something else. Creatures that defy the laws of physics and draw on arcane forces and energies (like magic) as part of their innate essence."

That's a quote about supernatural beings, not any being with "Supernatural" PS.

Correct.
This is what I'm saying.

Simply having SNPS does NOT make you a Supernatural creature.

Never once said it did.


What I said was that non-supernatural creatures like the Titan Juicer having Supernatural PS or the "equivalent" of Supernatural PS "doesn't make a lick of sense."

Having SNPS does NOT require magic, hoodoo, or mojo. It's a game mechanic.

And the game mechanic with Supernatural Strength--for creatures that are actually supernatural--represents [u]the ability of the supernatural to break the laws of physics.

What's the game mechanic supposed to represent with creatures that aren't in any way supernatural?


Or to put it another way:

A normal human who can carry 340 lbs, and can lift 680 lbs.
To represent their physics-based strength, they get a bonus of +2 to their punch damage, so they punch for 1d4+2 SDC, representing the physical damage they can inflict because of their strength.

A supernatural human with supernatural strength can carry 170 lbs, and can lift 340 lbs.
To represent their ability to break the laws of physics, they can punch for 4d6 SDC (something like up to 4x as much damage as the normal human who can lift and carry 2x as much weight, and is from a physics standpoint much stronger).
And they can power punch for 1d4 MD, roughly 100x the damage of that same normal human who can lift and carry 2x as much as they can.
That's fine; they're supernatural. The book flat-out tells us that the supernatural can "defy the laws of physics."
So sure, they punch for 100x more damage than the laws of physics say they should.

Now enter into the picture a dude who takes so much drugs that he has the "equivalent" of Supernatural PS.
So just like the supernatural guy, drug guy can lift/carry 1/2 the amount of the normal human who isn't on drugs, and just like the supernatural guy he can inflict like 4x more damage on a punch than the laws of physics say he should, AND just like the supernatural guy he can power punch for 100x the damage of that normal guy's punch.
BUT he's not supernatural.

So... how's non-supernatural drug guy breaking the laws of physics to inflict WAY more damage than the laws of physics say he should?
OR, since he lacks the ability to actually break the laws of physics,
AGAIN I ASK:
What's the non-supernatural equivalent of "defying the laws of physics"....?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The text says they have the "equivalent" of supernatural PS.
Which means it's not actually supernatural PS.
Which means that it functions just like supernatural PS in every way except being actually supernatural

When quoting me from other topics correctly the phrasing "mundane equivalent of SNPS", it does make sense in that when you add in the word 'mundane' to the word 'equivalent'.

Okay.
What's the mundane equivalent of "defying the laws of physics?"

Did you look at the picture of a Titan Juicer that comes along with the Class? They're are HUGE, and their muscles are HUGE.
So don't get your underthings in a pinch because of your misunderstanding, because you didn't take in all of the information presented in the class as a whole.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The text says they have the "equivalent" of supernatural PS.
Which means it's not actually supernatural PS.
Which means that it functions just like supernatural PS in every way except being actually supernatural

When quoting me from other topics correctly the phrasing "mundane equivalent of SNPS", it does make sense in that when you add in the word 'mundane' to the word 'equivalent'.

Okay.
What's the mundane equivalent of "defying the laws of physics?"

Did you look at the picture of a Titan Juicer that comes along with the Class? They're are HUGE, and their muscles are HUGE.

DRAGONS have huge muscles.
Huge muscles don't defy physics, though; huge muscles are physics

Try again.

Edit:
Okay, let me be clearer here, since you're somehow unwilling or unable to get this.

Titan Juicers are 60-80% larger than they were before the treatment.
The average human height is 69" tall.
160% of 69" is 9'2"
(feel free to check my math)

A Jotun Earth Giant is 18-20' tall, so the shortest, scrawniest Jotun is about 2x bigger than the average Titan Juicer.

The weakest Titan Juicer has Supernatural PS 30, punching for 3d6 Mega-Damage, an average of 1050 SDC damage.
The weakest Jotun is still 18' tall, has a Supernatural PS of 15, and punches for 4d6 SDC, an average of 14 SDC damage.

An you seriously want to claim that "huge muscles" is what's going on here....?


IF Titan Juicers were supernatural beings, then this could make sense; their strength would come from from magic, not physics.
But they're not supernatural in any way.
They cannot break the laws of physics.
But they're way too strong for the laws of physics to allow.

So, again, what's the "mundane equivalent" of "defying the laws of physics?"

How's 9' of non-magic muscle out-damage 18' of magic-enhanced muscle by 75x...?

"Huge Muscles" isn't an explanation.

Hello, person not actually looking at the math.

A titan juicer with a PS score of 30 is just as strong as a someone/some-creture with a SNPS of .....(wait for it).... 30.

This means they can carry and lift and throw and hit just as well as someone with a SNPS score the same as themselves. The difference is that they can't hurt with their bare hand attacks beings that are immune to mundane damage.
This would be true even if the TJ PS score was 15.

Since you have given up on actually having a discussion about this, and have degraded into comparing oranges to apples and you are ignoring that "IT IS A <descriptive adverb> GAME". I will gladly accept your back handed conceding that I'm correct, since your main argument is that The Game doesn't comply to real world logic/rules.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Hello, person not actually looking at the math.

A titan juicer with a PS score of 30 is just as strong as a someone/some-creture with a SNPS of .....(wait for it).... 30.

No **** Sherlock.

My question is how it make sense to you for a 9' tall Titan Juicer to be 2x stronger than a 18' tall Jotun, to the extent that the Titan Juicer punches for 75 TIMES the damage of the guy twice his size.

"Titan Juicers have huge muscles" doesn't answer my question, not even close, because the Jotun has HUGER muscles.

Remember, MY only real claim here is that it's absurd for Titan Juicers--or any creature that isn't magical or otherwise able to "defy the laws of physics"--to have Supernatural PS, because what that means is that they can defy the laws of physics without being in any way supernatural or magic.

Just saying "muscles" doesn't come close to rebutting my point or answering my question.

And "it's just a game" doesn't mean it's a game that makes sense, so that's also a no-go, and has nothing to do with my point.
Remember, MY stance is that it having non-supernatural Supernatural PS "doesn't make a lick of sense"; you saying that it "doesn't follow real-world logic" only rephrases my claim.

This means they can carry and lift and throw and hit just as well as someone with a SNPS score the same as themselves. The difference is that they can't hurt with their bare hand attacks beings that are immune to mundane damage.

Again, no ****.

Maybe read what I've said, and address THAT, instead of wandering blithely off into the cornfields of some other conversation that has nothing to do with anything I've said.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Hello, person not actually looking at the math.

A titan juicer with a PS score of 30 is just as strong as a someone/some-creture with a SNPS of .....(wait for it).... 30.

No **** Sherlock.

...snip...

This means they can carry and lift and throw and hit just as well as someone with a SNPS score the same as themselves. The difference is that they can't hurt with their bare hand attacks beings that are immune to mundane damage.

Again, no ****.

One might think you agreed with me by saying these.
Since I didn't come here for an argument....and you now apparently don't disagree with me, and just bringing up one complaint about everything....since this is not a Monty Python sketch I don't have to stick around since I didn't pay for an argument with someone that wants one playing on the looseness of the writing in PB game books to string everything out till people are mad at you. I will leave you to your argument with someone else before I get mad.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Hello, person not actually looking at the math.

A titan juicer with a PS score of 30 is just as strong as a someone/some-creture with a SNPS of .....(wait for it).... 30.

No **** Sherlock.

...snip...

This means they can carry and lift and throw and hit just as well as someone with a SNPS score the same as themselves. The difference is that they can't hurt with their bare hand attacks beings that are immune to mundane damage.

Again, no ****.

One might think you agreed with me by saying these.

Agreed with you about WHAT?
Dude, you're the one trying to argue with me, only you're talking mostly about stuff I never said, then trying to declare victory of some kind.

All I've said was that it doesn't make a lick of sense for non-supernatural creatures like the Titan Juicer to have "Supernatural PS."
That's literally the ONLY point I've made in this thread, and the only thing I've been talking about.
Which you've just agreed with.

So what the hell have you been on about here....?
And why?


IF I've said a thing here that you disagree with, let me know what, why, and how.
If NOT, maybe take a long look at your own behavior, and reassess the idea that you "didn't come here to argue."

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The text says they have the "equivalent" of supernatural PS.
Which means it's not actually supernatural PS.
Which means that it functions just like supernatural PS in every way except being actually supernatural

When quoting me from other topics correctly the phrasing "mundane equivalent of SNPS", it does make sense in that when you add in the word 'mundane' to the word 'equivalent'.

Okay.
What's the mundane equivalent of "defying the laws of physics?"

Did you look at the picture of a Titan Juicer that comes along with the Class? They're are HUGE, and their muscles are HUGE.

DRAGONS have huge muscles.
Huge muscles don't defy physics, though; huge muscles are physics

Try again.

Edit:
Okay, let me be clearer here, since you're somehow unwilling or unable to get this.

Titan Juicers are 60-80% larger than they were before the treatment.
The average human height is 69" tall.
160% of 69" is 9'2"
(feel free to check my math)

A Jotun Earth Giant is 18-20' tall, so the shortest, scrawniest Jotun is about 2x bigger than the average Titan Juicer.

The weakest Titan Juicer has Supernatural PS 30, punching for 3d6 Mega-Damage, an average of 1050 SDC damage.
The weakest Jotun is still 18' tall, has a Supernatural PS of 15, and punches for 4d6 SDC, an average of 14 SDC damage.

An you seriously want to claim that "huge muscles" is what's going on here....?


IF Titan Juicers were supernatural beings, then this could make sense; their strength would come from from magic, not physics.
But they're not supernatural in any way.
They cannot break the laws of physics.
But they're way too strong for the laws of physics to allow.

So, again, what's the "mundane equivalent" of "defying the laws of physics?"

How's 9' of non-magic muscle out-damage 18' of magic-enhanced muscle by 75x...?

"Huge Muscles" isn't an explanation.

If the boxing gloves can't fit you must acquit. Not to mention the Jotun have a reason to have SN strength. Heck the dragon Juicer has a reason for SN strength. Did the Titan Juicers have their juice nuked by magic before injection?

BTW, I agree with KC