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Well, it's another in the long series of "Veknironth asking pedantic questions about badly written spell descriptions". Today, we're discussing "Fly", the 5th level Wizard spell. It says you can imbue the power of flight upon an object (no metal or plastic parts), with a maximum length and width of 6 feet. So that's 36 square feet, pretty roomy. But it doesn't mention how deep it can go. Can you place Fly on a 6x6x6 stone cube? Is there a limit to the mass that can be imbued with flight?

The other concern is how much mass can be moved on the object? The spell only mentions room for people to sit on it, it makes no mention of how heavy they might be. I'd assume the mass it can carry is equal to the sheer strength of the object has the flight spell cast on it. However, that seems to go against the idea of spell's description of a magic carpet. A Magic carpet, left to its own devices wouldn't remain flat if it were somehow suspended in midair and an object were placed in the middle. It would collapse around that object. That is unless it was being suspended by some force, like wires or people holding the edges. Then it's a function of the sheer strength of the fabric vs the grip strenth of the force holding it aloft and stretched out vs the mass of the object. I assume the magic just fixes all of that magically, but is there a limit to what the relatively flimsy carpet could hold?

-Vek
"Are there Giant specific spells? This would be terribly disappointing for a Giant who just leanred it."

No weight limit, i mostly wouldn't allow stone as a flying object because most stone has metal in it.
I'd say there is an invisible force acting on the object to keep it flat, however if the material itself wasn't strong enough to hold your weight you would rip/tear/break through, so no paper carpets or balsa brooms. The most common device players have used this on for my games is the top of a table with ropes tied around it as reigns/handles. As for things put on it, if it is metal or plastic the device stops flying, the only way metal/plastic can be carried in it is by being held by someone living, if no aura (not being carried by someone) its part of the flying device and won't fly. Spell is designed for carrying people, not gear.

Also, magic for larger than man size
Increase range/radius per size category, unfortunately 1 size bonus doesn't fit on all spells so the boost is spell dependant.
but a trolls fly spell would be 12x12 etc

GM answering 1st....
I might limit the spell working on anything outside the mage's cultural heritage.
Like in England the fly spell would just work on brooms....but in Middle East it would just work on carpets.
And keeping with the stated restrictions, the spell would not work on any manmade substances. Like nylon & other fossil oil based substances. I'd might allow a Concrete Slab re-enforced with Fiber Glass or a natural stone slab that met the size limitations. (Magic slabs of stone do have a pesky time limit before they just evaporate back into magic.) (Most times, any metal in stone isn't refined. So will not effect the magic. It might be the stone is iron ore....and that might not work with the fly spell.)

(optimistic) Weight limit for a max sized carpet....6 people..ish.. @ 175 lb per
6 x 175=1050 lb. With maybe 50 lb. luggage/gear per person.



Canon answers....
The text is written in a way that says that the object it is cast upon is mostly flat'ish.

However, If a leather harness is made w/o any metal bits...that would fall within the limitations of the spell. Even if a M.E.M. style chair-broom would be more comfortable.

design references...

Well, I had another thought about this spell. What happens if the caster is no longer on the enchanted item? Does it just revert to obeying the laws of physics? Does the caster have any control over the item once he or she has cast the spell and is no longer touching it?

Additionally, what’s the acceleration/deceleration rate for such an object? How long does it take to reach max speed and how quickly can it come to a stop?

-Vek
“I ask too many questions.”

Cough assign it a maneuverability class cough

The Spell remains active till its duration ends.

As a GM I would limit the caster to controlling just one 'fly'ing thing. And would require a Fly (greater) spell for the caster to control more than one 'fly'ing thing. And that spell needing to limit the number of 'fly'ing things the mage could control, and how far away said 'fly'ing things could be away from the controlling mage.

Speed up/stop....these questions are for each GM to answer for their own games.

Veknironth wrote:So that's 36 square feet, pretty roomy. But it doesn't mention how deep it can go. Can you place Fly on a 6x6x6 stone cube? Is there a limit to the mass that can be imbued with flight?

Looking at the description it is the origin of flying brooms and carpets, so that could be used to determine thickness of the object (between a broom handle and carpet), though it suggests you can use a a chair/bench or table as you can sit on the object which would boost the 3rd dimension parameter considerably.

It doesn't list a limit on the mass, for simplicity I think I would assume "Fly" works via a combination of Telekinetic Movement (a known spell effect in PF2E) and Weight reduction (a known spell effect in PF2E), possibly even a Barrier-type spell (Energy Field, Armor of Ithan) for structural integrity (some TK movement spells could take the place). Using the Weightlessness spell as a guide (100lbs per level), the known level of Fly (6th), and stated capacity of 3-4 human size people (at 200lbs each with gear). I want to say the total weight limit is around 800lbs that the spell can move, including passengers and object.

Veknironth wrote:Well, I had another thought about this spell. What happens if the caster is no longer on the enchanted item? Does it just revert to obeying the laws of physics? Does the caster have any control over the item once he or she has cast the spell and is no longer touching it?

The spell ends with duration or the mage cancels, not due to loss of contact. As for the extent of controls with loss of contact, I'd say follows the last order it was given (so if it was to stop it stops, but if it was moving and the caster got off for what ever reason it would keep going until it hits something).

Veknironth wrote:Additionally, what’s the acceleration/deceleration rate for such an object? How long does it take to reach max speed and how quickly can it come to a stop?

That aspect is never really addressed even in the more high tech settings with vehicles where such information could come into play much more often. For simplicity I'm going to say no more than 1G or 32ft/sec/sec or 9.8m/s/s as nothing about the text suggests riders experience higher than normal G forces.

It's magic, yo.

I don't get the appeal of laying down fiddly rules for things that don't need rules.

The spell says four people, so... However much they weigh, be they pygmies or ogres, FOUR can fit. I assume the players can find a "suitable object", be that a piece of plywood, a carpet, a canoe, or whatever, the player says something along the lines of "Can we all fit in the rowboat?" and soon they're flying the SS Oarless.

As far as gear and load, I make "reasonable" a watchword.

Sure the cat is technically a 5th passenger, but it's weight is negligible. You're fine.

You want to carry sixteen passengers, but they're all dwarf pygmie faeries, 1/16 of an inch tall, weighing less than an eyelash, and they all live in your beard? You got worse problems than your couch not flying, bud. You can fly, but don't try opening trans-beard airlines.

Barry the Ogre is carrying the ENTIRE treasure room, PLUS that solid gold bench? Yes, I know the other three passengers are children, but bud, you're carrying SIX solid gold chests, each weighing a hundred pounds! You're carrying out the THRONE? I wondered why you had all those straps and bags on your sheet. Yeah, I see you're not above YOUR encumbrance, but Sorry, your tablecloth is overburdened.

And can a cube of matter fly? Maybe. There's no limit, really, besides reasonableness. If you want to hop in a stone cauldron and throw pumpkin bombs at people, that's your right as a hag, but if you're a player trying to build an armored car out of an impenetrable block of marble, you'll not have as much success unless you're prepared to invest resources in a permanent magical item. At lleast in my games.

Well, since I was the one who wrote the original post, I’ll defend asking my questions. I was at first wondering what happens when the caster falls off of the object. It could continue flying without guidance. That would have it continue on it’s current course and speed until something stopped it or until the spell expired. The other option I see is that once the mage is no longer exercising his or her will on the object via the spell, then the object would stop being propelled magically and would fall to the earth at 9.8 m/s squared.

Either option allows for using the object on which the spell has been cast as a missile. If the object continues to travel until the spell runs out, then the mage could line the object up with the target, get up to max speed, cast levitate on him or herself, and then levitate off of the object. The mage would slow down from air resistance while the object would hurtle forward and thirty some miles an hour. IF the object were a 6x6x6 cube of rock, that would be devastating. It could also be “fired” from miles away. It’s like a low level mass driver. This would also be very effective against ground troops.

If the object ceases to be under the influence of magic, it wouldn’t have nearly the range, but it could be even deadlier. You could rise 1000 feet above something, drive it straight down, and then levitate off and let it smash into the target. Gravity would accelerate it to speeds well in excess of 35 mph.

Going back to the ground troops, a warlock could construct a stone or ice compartment with blades or protrusions, that is roughly 6 feet in all dimensions. Then the caster could enter it, have tiny slots through which to see, and fly that thing around the battle field from the inside, bashing and impaling soldiers and horses.

-Vek
“I guess I just need someone to stop my from my crazy ideas.”

I would personally rule that if the mage lets go, the object slows to a stop and just hovers in spot waiting for reconnection or spell expiration.

Whiskeyjack wrote:I would personally rule that if the mage lets go, the object slows to a stop and just hovers in spot waiting for reconnection or spell expiration.

Exactly. It slows safely, drops to a couple feet off the ground, and hangs there. Cancelling the spell, or the spell running out, would result in a slow, gentle drop to the ground.

Even if the player argued their stone-witch should fly a 1000KG stone cauldron successfully, this should preclude her from creating the first stone cauldron assault system.

Mass driver-like siege weaponry would be straight out.

Also, if I was ruling this, I would rule against the giant tank block, as it is cheap and exploitative. "Sorry, the spell doesn't work like that" goes a long way.

Even better, "Your culture have a big history flying stone blocks, buddy? You know the brooms,carpets and doors spell form. Maybe if you learn the spell version from the stone block flying culture you'll be able to get that going? Your Mom was English? You can fly the bed!

Now, a combat carpet, reinforced with kevlar/magical armor plates, with built in spell protection, a mage with bubbles, AoI, I2E and/or Invul, with a couple gunners with high power rifles/bows/whatnots, and there you've got a gunship.

Fly like so many other things in Palladium’s library lacks helpful details. The intent of the spell is clear though; this is supposed to create a flying broom or carpet for the mage and possibly a couple of people to use to fly. And if GMs and players see it and use it that way everything is fine.

This of course leaves more creative players and rules lawyers with a lot of questions and plenty of room for creative uses or even abuses.

I think some house rules on the spell would help clear it up more. I would limit the weight of the flying object to 100lbs+10/level, set the speed to 35mph +5mph/lvl (takes 1 melee to accelerate to full speed?), max weight to 500lbs +50/lvl for passengers, and clarify what happens when canceled or the duration ends. For the last point I would probably have it rapidly decelerate and drop to the ground during the last melee of the duration or for the melee if canceled.

I think clarification/house rules like these with the standard limitations should leave enough room for creativity and limit potential abuse.

One point I would make if I were a GM is that the object in question must remain intact for the spell to continue affecting it. If a broomstick breaks, a carpet tears, or a stone/ice object takes too much damage, I would rule that since the integrity of the object has been broken, the spell can no longer be sustained, and would plummet to the ground immediately.

Another reason why overloading a flying object, or flying it into combat is a bad idea; also as a GM, a good way to encourage characters to use active parries (not automatic) and other defensive actions to protect their ride..

Well, I think it's a given that if your fly item breaks the item is no longer functional as a ride. What I had in mind is aiming something at someone, and then jumping off and using something like Levitate or Fly as the Eagle to keep yourself from crashing into the enemy. But the object would hit the target and do massive damage.

-Vek
"Don't ever give me a vague description of a power."

Veknironth wrote:-Vek
"Don't ever give me a vague description of a power."

That's literally how every power in Palladium is written!

Veknironth wrote:Well, I think it's a given that if your fly item breaks the item is no longer functional as a ride. What I had in mind is aiming something at someone, and then jumping off and using something like Levitate or Fly as the Eagle to keep yourself from crashing into the enemy. But the object would hit the target and do massive damage.

-Vek
"Don't ever give me a vague description of a power."

This usage is exploitative and cheap. No GM worth their screen would ever allow this.

If you want a damage spell, take a damage spell. Make one up, if you like, that hurls massive blocks for huge damage, even. Fly doesn't need a secondary attack use.

ITWastrel wrote:This usage is exploitative and cheap. No GM worth their screen would ever allow this.

Or else you end up in an "arms race" with the GM where the npcs start doing this sort of stuff shortly after you do.

That is generally how I deal with figuring out anything that isn't explicitly spelled out: "Would players be justified in rage quitting (or at least throwing dice at me) if I had npcs use this ability in X manner?".

Well, of course it's exploitative. That's why I ask in advance - for reasons against it.

-Vek
"The war on parity never ends."

Well, this is less exploitative but still a bit of an exploit but I can't find anything against it as the spell is described. Could you wear a onesie or a set of longjohns with no metal in them, and then cast fly on that piece of fabric and use it as a flying suit? It's less fabric than the usual carpet.

Conversely, could you cast the spell on someone else's cloak/robe/shirt and fly them around? This would violate Mark's aura rule, but perhaps there's a saving throw like with Levitate?

-Vek
"Who would need Fly as an Eagle then?"