Could a Cosmo Knight...

[Guest]

learn an Oriental Martial art, i know they are rare in rifts earth, but how about in the three galaxies...

i have this image of a fallen knight samurai, with his cosmic katana, zanji shinjenken ryu, and an in depth understand of the darker side of humanity, with an urge to make amends for his fall.

[Shaved Monkey]

KS wrote some official rules for handling mixing martial arts selection with OCC in one of the early rifters.

[Guest]

i was intending on using the N&SS version anyways...

ok, so what about a fallen knight, it says they can go and acquire magic or psionics, what about them, would an MA be out of the question?

especially if he wound up in an appropriate environment, say an Oni world, or even some version of japan...

the people note his cosmic weapon is a katana, and things go from there.

he could have been inspired by the samurai way before becoming a knight, and strayed too close to the samurai way while a knight, and while samurai are honorable, there are parts of bushido which would not go over that well with the forge...

and you get a samurai inspired fallen knight.

[Borast]

Cosmo-Knight...no.

Fallen Knight...sure, why not - if appropriate to where (s)he is when the fall occurs. However, you would have to do some skill sacrifices, possibly limit, or REPLACE either your magic / psi powers.

[Tinker Dragoon]

learn an Oriental Martial art, i know they are rare in rifts earth, but how about in the three galaxies...

i have this image of a fallen knight samurai, with his cosmic katana, zanji shinjenken ryu, and an in depth understand of the darker side of humanity, with an urge to make amends for his fall.

A Cosmo-Knight would never have time to learn a martial art, constantly being on call as he is. A Fallen Knight on the other hand conceivably could, I suppose...

However martial arts originating on Earth would be virtually nonexistent in the Three Galaxies, with the only teachers likely being those who had somehow been rifted in.

KS wrote some official rules for handling mixing martial arts selection with OCC in one of the early rifters.

That was Rifter #3, though I could have sworn the rules were by Wayne Smith...

[Tinker Dragoon]

wow! i love this, ive done some messed up stuff in my day but wow, a fallen knight do MA, now thats nuts, i like the idea, and dont seem to see any thing that would say you cant, but now i have a question for all of you ppl.
does a cosmo knight keep his/her psionics? say if it was a psi-stalker?

No. No matter what race you were before you became a Cosmo Knight, you only have the skills and abilities of a Cosmo Knight when you become one (only attributes, if higher, are kept). A Fallen Knight however could possibly regain old racial powers in place of or in addition to the normal magic or psionics choice.

[Tinker Dragoon]

hey tinker, it says that the ck is the same as any other of there race, how can they be the same if they dont have the same powers? like as i was saying about the psi stalker, how are they gonna be a "normal" psi stalker if thery lose all there psionics of the race?

The book doesn't say they're the same as other members of their race, only that they look like other members of their race, retaining only size, appearance, and any attributes that are higher than what the Cosmo-Knight OCC provides. The character is completely remade by the Forge, losing magic knowledge, psionic powers, skills, and racial powers, as well as the need to eat, breathe, excrete, or reproduce.

[Vrykolas2k]

So a wolfen somehow loses its abilities to track by scent, then, even though it's reliant on their obviously superior olfactory sense? That i wouldn't buy... losing psionics {unless you fall, which is covered} is one thing, losing something like the ability to smell due to a wolfen's structure is another...
I'm a big fallen knight fan... it's my fave occ... though I was wondering if a fallen knight could become a cyber-knight if he/ she ended up on rifts earth, rather than a mind melter...
Especially if the fallen knight was one of the repentant variety... or even a samurai, if they ended up in Japan...

[Tinker Dragoon]

So a wolfen somehow loses its abilities to track by scent, then, even though it's reliant on their obviously superior olfactory sense? That i wouldn't buy... losing psionics {unless you fall, which is covered} is one thing, losing something like the ability to smell due to a wolfen's structure is another...

I wouldn't call superior senses a racial power per se, and minor things like that could remain, or even be heightened in some way (like the character "smells" evil for example). The exact extent to which the character is biologically altered is not fully explained in the book, leaving that up to GM's judgement. A Psi-Stalker though is just going to be a bald, pale human aside from his cosmic powers (or is that Power Cosmic...).

[Borast]

The conversion could also "mute" any natural heightened senses, or...since the CK doesn't need to breathe (and likely occationally will "forget" to do so) it could atrophy - especially if (like Lothar in the Hammer of the Forge serial) they remain "armoured-up" all the time (or if they spend all thier time in space) - from lack of exercising it!

Or, you could simply rule that all the energy roiling around in thier bodies prevents enhanced senses (other than sight) from working properly... Your Wolfen CK might still smell the bad guy sneaking up on him, but the message simply doesn't reach the brain until he's on top of him.

Personally, I'd simply run one of the options in the first paragraph.

[Vrykolas2k]

I like the idea of cyber-knight better... sure he'd be less powerful, but at the same time, he'd be a more fun character... and of course he'd prolly still have the psionics of a first level mind melter, he'd just train to be a cyber-knight instead. Plus when the armour got grafted on, he'd be "closer to what he once was". And as a cyber-knight, living by the Code, he'd be more likely to redeem himself. When I run, if someone wants to be a cosmo-knight, I make them start out as a fallen knight and redeem themselves before i let them have that much power {in redeeming themselves I can see whether or not thay're just a power gamer, or if they have a better reason to play a cosmo-knight}.

[Svartalf]

wow! i love this, ive done some messed up stuff in my day but wow, a fallen knight do MA, now thats nuts, i like the idea, and dont seem to see any thing that would say you cant, but now i have a question for all of you ppl.
does a cosmo knight keep his/her psionics? say if it was a psi-stalker?

No. No matter what race you were before you became a Cosmo Knight, you only have the skills and abilities of a Cosmo Knight when you become one (only attributes, if higher, are kept). A Fallen Knight however could possibly regain old racial powers in place of or in addition to the normal magic or psionics choice.

begging pardon... but for such an extreme change... after all, when a player creates a Cosmo Knight (and even when a GM introduces one as anything else thant a one man star buster) the characters background, and thus his race, do have some importance... so where is it stated (book, section, preferably page, column &§ please) that upon being chose by the Forge, a Cosmo Knight's new abilities supersede & replaces those he had from his race? and is there any statement/explantion that/why a fallen knight would get them back? To me, it's black or white, once in the crew. ever in the crew. I grant that you must know the game better than I, I'm a bit outta practice after all, but that one needs to be argued

[Svartalf]

hey tinker, it says that the ck is the same as any other of there race, how can they be the same if they dont have the same powers? like as i was saying about the psi stalker, how are they gonna be a "normal" psi stalker if thery lose all there psionics of the race?

well... since a CK is immune to hunger, I guess that one who came from stalker stock would at least no more have to feed... so long as he didn' fall

[Svartalf]

The book doesn't say they're the same as other members of their race, only that they look like other members of their race, retaining only size, appearance, and any attributes that are higher than what the Cosmo-Knight OCC provides. The character is completely remade by the Forge, losing magic knowledge, psionic powers, skills, and racial powers, as well as the need to eat, breathe, excrete, or reproduce.

well... if I've looked down correctly (no later than yesterday actually) it says that they keep the appearance of a normal member of ther original race. Nothing is said about their natural racial abilities being superseded and replaced by their C K powers

[Svartalf]

Lol[

quote="Vrykolas2k"]I like the idea of cyber-knight better... sure he'd be less powerful, but at the same time, he'd be a more fun character... and of course he'd prolly still have the psionics of a first level mind melter, he'd just train to be a cyber-knight instead. Plus when the armour got grafted on, he'd be "closer to what he once was". And as a cyber-knight, living by the Code, he'd be more likely to redeem himself. When I run, if someone wants to be a cosmo-knight, I make them start out as a fallen knight and redeem themselves before i let them have that much power {in redeeming themselves I can see whether or not thay're just a power gamer, or if they have a better reason to play a cosmo-knight}.[/quote]

begging pardon... but while I leave the cyber-fallen-knight option to the devices of the individual GM ... and will ponder it if I'm ever confronted with it... the notion of a fallen knight going cyber as a way to redeem himself strikes me as downright weird... I mean, entering such an order may be a mean of regaining one's self respect, sure, but redeeming oneself in the eyes of the Forge and hoping to regain Cosmic Knighthood... beside the notorious rarity of such events (and thus my disopproval of starting would be CK as fallen and in quest of redemption) , there's the simple fact that entering cyber knight hood, and order and a new OCC entirely, means a complete changing of the way... the new cyber K is not seeking to regain his status, he's glossing over and going another way entirely, although a worthy one

[Vrykolas2k]

Lol[

quote="Vrykolas2k"]I like the idea of cyber-knight better... sure he'd be less powerful, but at the same time, he'd be a more fun character... and of course he'd prolly still have the psionics of a first level mind melter, he'd just train to be a cyber-knight instead. Plus when the armour got grafted on, he'd be "closer to what he once was". And as a cyber-knight, living by the Code, he'd be more likely to redeem himself. When I run, if someone wants to be a cosmo-knight, I make them start out as a fallen knight and redeem themselves before i let them have that much power {in redeeming themselves I can see whether or not thay're just a power gamer, or if they have a better reason to play a cosmo-knight}.

begging pardon... but while I leave the cyber-fallen-knight option to the devices of the individual GM ... and will ponder it if I'm ever confronted with it... the notion of a fallen knight going cyber as a way to redeem himself strikes me as downright weird... I mean, entering such an order may be a mean of regaining one's self respect, sure, but redeeming oneself in the eyes of the Forge and hoping to regain Cosmic Knighthood... beside the notorious rarity of such events (and thus my disopproval of starting would be CK as fallen and in quest of redemption) , there's the simple fact that entering cyber knight hood, and order and a new OCC entirely, means a complete changing of the way... the new cyber K is not seeking to regain his status, he's glossing over and going another way entirely, although a worthy one[/quote]


Ah, but who plays the Cosmic Forge? The GM... so if I as the GM decide that the fallen knight has redeemed himself/ herself, guess what?
Unless of course the Forge's stats come out at some point and they supercede the GM {which I would accept, since my ego wouldn't be bruised in the slightest... kinda like the Great Dragon in WoD, more powerful than the GM}.

[Svartalf]

.

Actually the book does say that if you read the description of the cosmo knight.
"Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by the cosmic forces."

Which pretty much well explains why you lose all your racial, magic, psionics and natural abilities except for your attributes.

Sorry... Dr Servo argued pretty the same point, better than you do, and I don't follow : a) there is no reason for the Forge to "standardize" it's knights by deleting the individual traits the new knight had because of his race before the Forging. He'll forget most skills, all magick knowledge, and I guess all psionics that are not inherent to his race, but he still retains those abilities his race brothers have. I adjudge so because
b) the loss of abilities one used to take for granted for as long as one can remember is quite likely to cause mental dissociation and other disorders, making a fall all the more likely... something that the Forge doesn't wish for, does it?

On the note if a fallen knight can learn a MA I say yes if they select the correct OCC. After all if they can learn psionics and magic why not a MA.

choose the correct OCC? sorry, but they already belong to the Fallen Knight, which is actually more of an RCC.... of course, the GM may choose to let a Fallen put everything back of him and choose a new OCC, renouncing for ever the path of the Forge... and curtailing any further development of his Fallen Knight's magical or psionic powers. Even if such a thing is allowed... well... to learn a Martial Art, you have to find a Master or a place where to learn... nice quest in front of you chum... especially as I would not swear that the fact that earthlings have developed powerful powers through the use of disciplines they call budo or martial arts is precisely common knowledge in the 3 galaxies. The closest to be fairly well know *there* are the Oni ninja... but would they teach a Fallen?

Also I'm interested what people think about a cosmo knight having gloves as his cosmic weapon? If so would that be considered 2 weapons (left and right glove counted as seperate weapons) or one weapon?

My thinking is that they can create gloves as their cosmic weapon but not sure if they would count as one weapon or two

given the fact that a cosmic weapon can be mode in most any shape, one glove(or more precisely, a gauntlet or cestus type thing) would be perfectly allowable.... but I don't think a knight would be allowed to create a second weapon. the same as my ruling on a character that told me he wanted his cosmic weapon to come as a pair (and of course he takes WP paired weapons to do double strikes) would be MUNCHKIN. a possible version would be if each gauntlet was only half strength (+5d4 damage) and they would be distinct and separate items, that *can* be taken away from the knight, not fused to the Armor.[/b]

[Svartalf]

.

Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by the cosmic forces."

English may not be my native language, but I know it well enough, thanks.
If you don't belive that the infusion of Cosmic Power that gives a Knight his abilities is enough to qualify for such strong terms... well, I don't know what does. Also, it says " seared and reshaped", not "melted in the crucible and molded anew"... which I deem slightly stronger in meaning...

"Cosmo-knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as a normal members of their race (which is important for undercover work)."

There, I serve you your argument right back. it expressly does NOT say anything like "Cosmo Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as a normal members of their race (which is important for undercover work) but none of their races other traits or abilities". and sorry, you cannot equate an entry dealing with size with one dealing with natural abilities. except the fact that they forgot to put one for the latter, that's definitely 2 necessary entries.

Thats not one place but three places that the writer could have mention natural abilities.

Yep... if the Forge powers were really meant to supersede and replace the Knight's own racial abilities, that's three lost occasions to make it clear.

I meant it in the same context that it is listed under the fallen knight. Which says under P.P.E.

"Select a magic class as an O.C.C"

well... there's only one "OCC" choice for the Fallen : mind melter of spell caster, in which case he gains additional PPE as per magical OCC : line walker. but it sure looked you meant it somewhat differently.

Likewise a fallen knight can select a MA O.C.C. to determine what MA abilities they gain. The three galaxies is a big place, the possiblities are endless and you can pretty much buy anything if you have the cash. Never said it would be easy only that it is possible.
For example whats stopping me going to my bank and withdrawing $20000, go to the best MA school, knock on their door and say "heres $20000 teach me some MA..Likewise the knight can do the same thing.

yeah... the 3 galaxies are big... but you'll have noticed that MA type abilities are seemingly all clustered on earth, with the Oni exception already noted. and if you've noticed, such MA as really give special abilities are generally *not* taught publicly. If you go to a "Martial Arts" school, with just your waller, I bet the best you'll learn will be MA HTH, no special powers. those come with advanced training, that is normally not given to just anybody, but to those the Master deems "Worthy", whatever his criteria... but I'm afraid that being a Fallen is the worst background check blackmark you can get... *nobody* will vouch for you, and no Master will teach you his secrets for fear you'd backstab him ASAP when you know.

Concerning Knights with 2 Cosmic Weapons... well, I've told you my mind, now you listen or not... I already feel like much of what I wrote up there fell on a blind man's eye. As for the illos showing Knights with 2 weapons... well, the one on PhW p98... yep, the centaur has a spear *and* a bow... but are they both Cosmic Weapons? not much tells. Of Course, the Knight on the cover of 3 galaxies *does* look like he's equipped with 2 Cosmic Warhammers. Given the long Palladium tradition of publishing artwork only for the art's sake, not for that of conformity between the art and game-reality, I would not say that it means much. and it would take advice from a number of persons I respect (including Nekira Sudacne, Tinker Dragoon and Dr Servo) to make me change my mind on that point.

P.S. Who's Dr Servo ? Sounds like a smart fellow

He is a guy who posts a lot around here... if I remember well, his avatar is from a Triax bot. he *is* smart, even if I don't agree with him on all points, and I've already developed those arguments on 2 or 3 forums. But do you say he's smart because he *is* or just because he agrees with you? (given the fact that you don't know him, that question is of course purely rhetorical )

[Vrykolas2k]

.

Their bodies and souls are seared and reshaped by the cosmic forces."

English may not be my native language, but I know it well enough, thanks.
If you don't belive that the infusion of Cosmic Power that gives a Knight his abilities is enough to qualify for such strong terms... well, I don't know what does. Also, it says " seared and reshaped", not "melted in the crucible and molded anew"... which I deem slightly stronger in meaning...

"Cosmo-knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as a normal members of their race (which is important for undercover work)."

There, I serve you your argument right back. it expressly does NOT say anything like "Cosmo Knights retain their previous appearance and can even pass as a normal members of their race (which is important for undercover work) but none of their races other traits or abilities". and sorry, you cannot equate an entry dealing with size with one dealing with natural abilities. except the fact that they forgot to put one for the latter, that's definitely 2 necessary entries.

Thats not one place but three places that the writer could have mention natural abilities.

Yep... if the Forge powers were really meant to supersede and replace the Knight's own racial abilities, that's three lost occasions to make it clear.

I meant it in the same context that it is listed under the fallen knight. Which says under P.P.E.

"Select a magic class as an O.C.C"

well... there's only one "OCC" choice for the Fallen : mind melter of spell caster, in which case he gains additional PPE as per magical OCC : line walker. but it sure looked you meant it somewhat differently.

Likewise a fallen knight can select a MA O.C.C. to determine what MA abilities they gain. The three galaxies is a big place, the possiblities are endless and you can pretty much buy anything if you have the cash. Never said it would be easy only that it is possible.
For example whats stopping me going to my bank and withdrawing $20000, go to the best MA school, knock on their door and say "heres $20000 teach me some MA..Likewise the knight can do the same thing.

yeah... the 3 galaxies are big... but you'll have noticed that MA type abilities are seemingly all clustered on earth, with the Oni exception already noted. and if you've noticed, such MA as really give special abilities are generally *not* taught publicly. If you go to a "Martial Arts" school, with just your waller, I bet the best you'll learn will be MA HTH, no special powers. those come with advanced training, that is normally not given to just anybody, but to those the Master deems "Worthy", whatever his criteria... but I'm afraid that being a Fallen is the worst background check blackmark you can get... *nobody* will vouch for you, and no Master will teach you his secrets for fear you'd backstab him ASAP when you know.

Concerning Knights with 2 Cosmic Weapons... well, I've told you my mind, now you listen or not... I already feel like much of what I wrote up there fell on a blind man's eye. As for the illos showing Knights with 2 weapons... well, the one on PhW p98... yep, the centaur has a spear *and* a bow... but are they both Cosmic Weapons? not much tells. Of Course, the Knight on the cover of 3 galaxies *does* look like he's equipped with 2 Cosmic Warhammers. Given the long Palladium tradition of publishing artwork only for the art's sake, not for that of conformity between the art and game-reality, I would not say that it means much. and it would take advice from a number of persons I respect (including Nekira Sudacne, Tinker Dragoon and Dr Servo) to make me change my mind on that point.

P.S. Who's Dr Servo ? Sounds like a smart fellow

He is a guy who posts a lot around here... if I remember well, his avatar is from a Triax bot. he *is* smart, even if I don't agree with him on all points, and I've already developed those arguments on 2 or 3 forums. But do you say he's smart because he *is* or just because he agrees with you? (given the fact that you don't know him, that question is of course purely rhetorical )

Erm... for fallen knights, read it again... they're NOT only limited to Mind melter or ley Line Walker...

[Vrykolas2k]

BTW, Tinker Dragoon has said in another thread that Wolfen {for instance} probably would retain senses of smell and hearing, and nightvision... it's logical to assume an elf would as well, or an oni, or whatever...

[Svartalf]

Erm... for fallen knights, read it again... they're NOT only limited to Mind melter or ley Line Walker...

Beg Pardon... yes, there's the possibility of going into witchcraft or entering the service of a deity... if there is a mention of any other powers and OCC a Fallen Knight may pursue beside I don't remember where . I'd be glad to be reminded. '

However, my dispute with alph is about whether a Fallen would be able to get martial arts teaching. I do hope you'll agree with me on that point. . And on that area, I stand by my arguments : even if such arts are taught in the 3 galaxies, a Fallen would be about the least likely person to be taught by anybody, even such vile ones as the Masters of tien hsueh, mien chu'an or snake style kung fu (this being for comparison purpose only... those powerful ones are some 300 years dead... or perhaps living in Rifts China... good luck trying to find them, and even better trying to convince to teach you)

[Vrykolas2k]

Well... assuming one could find a willing teacher, he/ she might be able to "trade" a skill they'd otherwise get in orderto learn the MA of choice, since the new OCC starts at 1st level... though that begs the question, do they get the new OCC skill package or continue on with the Cosmo-Knight package...

[Svartalf]

the description of the Fallen top right of p 104 is fairly clear : they go on with the Cosmo Knight skill plan. they only get the spells/psi powers/ special powers of the OCC allowed to them after they fall

[Svartalf]

this is a debate in english

Really? did I inadvertently express myself in German, Icelandic or Gaelic? (I'm pretty sure I did not use Japanese, no way I know to make the comp write in that)

thank you for the dictionary reminder... as I told already, I *do* know English

If the writer wanted the cosmo-knight to retain all their powers he would have listed it seperately under P.P.E or ISP, but he didn't so you don't get to keep them.
You are changed from a mortal to a supernatural being.

Actually, he *did* specify that formerly known skills were replaced by the Cosmo Knight skill plan. Hence I agree that all learned skills and powers, including those from magic and psionic OCCs are lost in the transformation. and I don't see why this would be under those headings : PPE & ISP are scores, not ability listings. Actually I do note that in the same book, under the race & RCC descriptions, CJ usually included a psionic heading that says whether or not they have them... which is omitted for the Cosmo Knight. Note well... NOT a heading saying they have none (like say, the catyr and kreeghor) but none at all. while I won't see that as a sign that your run of the mill knight has psionics (they don't) I see that as meaning that such basically psionic races as the noro don't lose them either. Remember, we are not talking here of powers developed over time, but of ones inborn to the very race the Knight stems from.

You obviously can't read between the lines

still possible... but I do think you read too far in the stated text. as we argued earlier, if the Forge's intent had been to deprive the fledgling Knight of all but his former race's appearance, it would have taken but a short sentence to say so. If no such thing was stated... well... I guess that it's because it was not to be stated.

I quoted that sentence to point out to you that the writer emphasized that even thought the character had under gone a major change he still retains his previous appearance. Why would the writer do that if the cosmo knight only gain powers? because the knight does't only gain powers but loses all their previous abilities, the individual is remade by the cosmic forge.

Remade, yes, to a great extent, certainly, turned into a supernatural being, of course. Loses the abilities from his previous OCC... stated for the skills, and thus very much implied for the rest. But *ALL* previous abilities? There I take exception. If the newly made Knight were to be "only" a Knight, with no traces from what he previously was, then why does the forge leave him his previous appearance and memories? actually, why doesn't the Forge create its Knights from whole cloth?

This is from the faq, I'm not the only one that thinks that way.
58. If a being becomes a Cosmo Knight, does he lose his natural abilities (i.e. Nightvision, Sensing supernatural evil, Psionics, Superpowers, Magic, etc.)?
Answer: Yes, they are effectively made over.

a) being several people to think the same does not insure being right... An I remember correctly, in 1933, a majority of German people thought that having a certain Adolf Hitler as Chancellor was the best thing for Germany.
b)Since when is the faq official? For instance, the closest thing to an official mouthpiece on the Q&A boards, Tinker Dragoon, while expert and usually cogent, has been known to err.

as for 66 ... well, I would not have thought that multiple weapons were an option... but if enough people disagree with me on that, since there is no statement on the matter, I guess I may rally the majority.

No MA exist in the three galaxies (except for the ones you stated), only earth has MA. hmmm I find that very hard to believe. Given the nature of humans and the fact that there are many more humans in the three galaxies than on earth I would say that MA would have been develop somewhere in the three galaxies.

No radical impossibility there... still I deem it strange that no mention should have been made otherwise. Anyway, even if "powered" MA forms have been developed, I stick by my opinion that those forms would not be publicly available, and that being a Fallen Knight (even if you try to keep it a secret) is about the worst kind of introduction/repute you could have to have any chance of convincing a Master to teach you the secrets.

Concerning the Fallen Knight learning temporal spells... it's not *so* clear. CJ mentioned the availability of divine servant OCCs which were published a year later than Rifts England... If he mentioned neither necromantic, nor temporal wizardry possibilities... the least I can do is wonder why.

As for my opinions... well, not only have I argued them at length, but to me, at least, they *feel* right. not simply logical, but proper and conducive to better understanding of the subject *and* better play.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Hey now, I'm nowhere even remotely close to anything that could possibly be imagined to be an official mouthpiece or rules maven, so don't go quoting me as an authority. Inconsistencies and ambiguities like this are partly why I don't play Rifts anymore

And we seem to be no longer on the topic of Cosmo Knight martial arts...

[Vrykolas2k]

Hey now, I'm nowhere even remotely close to anything that could possibly be imagined to be an official mouthpiece or rules maven, so don't go quoting me as an authority. Inconsistencies and ambiguities like this are partly why I don't play Rifts anymore

And we seem to be no longer on the topic of Cosmo Knight martial arts...

LMAO!!!!!
Anyway, okay i say a resounding YES by the gods they can... so let's stop the endless bickering. Maybe I should make further replies in Gaelic lol and let the rest of you figure out what I'm saying lol.
Rules maven. LOL!

[Svartalf]

you're right Tinker... BTW, are there anything like official rules for Rifts characters learning MA?

As I remember, those included in an old Rifter were of the "purely optional, not at all official and not generally so well regarded" kind, and the 1st version of Conversion Book 1 mentioned tricks to convert N&SS characters *into* Rifts, but nothing about characters learning that kind of skills *in* Rifts.

Of course, there *might* (unlikely but possible for those who doubt that I can use the tongue of Harry Turtledove) be an addition to that effect in the new version... though I doubt so. Or something could have been published while I was watching elsewhere...

[Tinker Dragoon]

Well in N&S itself, it is noted that N&S martial arts are virtually nonexistent in Rifts, and for those that would conceivably be available no rules are given, but I would assume the HU conversion notes would apply, modified accordingly.

In Rifts however, it appears that only watered down "quickie" N&S martial arts like those in Rifts Japan are available in Rifts Earth, and similar things would likely also be the standard in the Dimension books. Martial artists rifted in from the worlds of N&S or Mystic China are the only known exception, but such characters could teach their skills to others...

And of course there's the optional rules in Rifter #3, which I assume inspired this topic to begin with.

[Svartalf]

according to the GMG you can't have more than one HTH skill. Since the CK had to fall so he had one in the first place....

most excellent point.
and, according to the optional rules in Rifter3 (the only published ones pertaining to this subject), once the character has learned HTH Martial Arts,(an automatic skill for Cosmic Knights) and the player has come up with a good story about how his character could have learned the MA form he covets, he still has to cough up 4 OCC related skills for a non Exclusive form, and 6 for an Exclusive one. Since it can safely be assumed that a Knights initial complement of skills is lacquired at the time of his Becoming, he won't have learned any Martial Arts at this time, and since his skill plan does not include any oportunity to learn 4 skills at once later... well, that means that, by the rules, even the lame ones that *do* exist, there is no normal way for a cosmic knight to *also* be a martial artist.

Then again... if the Fallen Knight mentioned at the beginning of this thread is *truly* as chivalrous and determined to redeem himself as said in that 1st post, *and* if he has spent long years in an environment where such a skill as Zanji Shinjinken Ryû could be available (say, among the Oni or in the NeW Empire of Japan) *and* the GM could be convinced that this is a genuine role playing experience and not mere Munchkinnery... well, it just *might* be allowed

[Svartalf]

mh? that's really *very* House ruley what you propose...

my guess is that HtH skills are almost as much a whole outlook on combat as a skill, and better learned during on's formative years... any way, if a character wanted to upgrade from Basic or expert to Martial Arts after character creation, a) he would have to be in a proper setting to learn (MUCH easier than a true MA form, still not necessarily available everywher) *and* fork out the full 3 skills required to learn HTH MA from scratch, not just the creation upgrade cost... which leads us to the next point

Since the possibility to learn new skills is part of an OCC's skill plan and is supposed to happen at certain levels (i.e. when the character is at a point in his development when he is more susceptible to learn new stuff) rather than just allowing the character to just find a teacher and learn stuff whenever the oportunity presents itself, I would tend to enforce learning around the time of the level change, as modified by in game factors, such as being at the time in the middle of no where with no learning oportunities available right then. "Saving up" skill slots for later strikes me as a clear case of rule abuse....

But, as you say, that is essentially up to the GM... it is even up to the GM to be actually a DM or to decide to play something else entirely... but then please don't go around saying you play Rifts... RPGs are like languages... you may use a lot of slang and personal words and change the way you pronounce, but then it's likely you won't be actually speaking like anybody else and nobody will understand you.

BTW... I personally wouldn't care to play a Fallen, whether Psionic, Mage, or Berserker... but I do think I've seen people (I don't remember who, and won't bother to go through all the C K threads just to look up) actually stating a preference for the Mind Melter type of Fallen.

[Svartalf]

using rifter isn't house rules ...

When those rules are *HIGHLY* non official, as are those from Rifter 3, the difference with garden variety House Rulez is all but negligible.

and you take the broom by the straw. if the skill plan says you get those skills at level x, that means you start learning and studying about level x-2 and complete the process by level x, not that you start learning at level x and finish by level x+3. Any which way your argument is specious, as the skills learned from level x vould not accumulate with those learned at level x+3

but then please don't go around saying you play Rifts"

PS: what are you referring to?

that if you play a *highly variant* version of the game, you can't use that as an argument concerning the rules as they officially stand