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How do you handle a skill vs skill check: prowl vs perception, or, tracking vs counter-tracking, etc.?

Franko Tyrador wrote:How do you handle a skill vs skill check: prowl vs perception, or, tracking vs counter-tracking, etc.?

I can only think of this coming up in Player vs Player situations. I'd just have both characters make their skill check and whoever rolls lowest without failing the roll wins.

In NPC vs PC skill checks, I only have the PC roll. I might apply a penalty (or bonus) to the roll depending on the NPC's counter-skill (or lack of). So if a trained NPC scout is on the lookout for the PCs, I'd give a penalty to the player's Prowl check. But say... the player is Prowling up to a totally unaware and untrained NPC, I might give the player a bonus on their check.

What I do is simple both players roll and if both are successful the person wins who beats the skill by th most.
So player 1 has a skill of 98% and rolls a 90% he beat the skill by 8%
Player 2 skill is 60% but rolls a 20% so he beats the skill by 40%
This means player 2 wins

I use this for skills that counter each other like radio basic / weapons systems vs. ECM

It also works in a delayed fashion so if a player leaves an explosive charge and he beats the demolition skill by 35% that means if someone is using demo disposal they would need to beat the 35% plus any other penalties.

I like this because it usually provides a big bonus to players with the higher skill but still allows for luck.

Warshield73 wrote:What I do is simple both players roll and if both are successful the person wins who beats the skill by th most.
So player 1 has a skill of 98% and rolls a 90% he beat the skill by 8%
Player 2 skill is 60% but rolls a 20% so he beats the skill by 40%
This means player 2 wins

I use this for skills that counter each other like radio basic / weapons systems vs. ECM

It also works in a delayed fashion so if a player leaves an explosive charge and he beats the demolition skill by 35% that means if someone is using demo disposal they would need to beat the 35% plus any other penalties.

I like this because it usually provides a big bonus to players with the higher skill but still allows for luck.

I do this too, it's in no way an official rule, but it works and is fair.

Now, how do we do D20 Perception vs Percentile Prowl Skill?

Umm...

Great answers, Thanks! I do similar things. Just wanted to see what everyone else does. the only one I have problem with is the Perception vs prowl. I read somewhere that each 10% gives a +/- to the opposed roll, like if A has Prowl of 90%, that would be a -9 to the perception roll of B... opinions?

Personally, I don't do a contested roll on prowl vs. perception. If the prowl roll gets failed, then perception gets rolled with consequences varying based on the perception roll and the environment around the character with the failed prowl (like how much cover they have). However, the prowl roll should have modifiers applicable to the situation, like the character someone is trying to sneak around being distracted, the presence of other noise in the environment, etc. Proximity would (in my opinion) start giving some reasonable sized penalties to prowl unless the sneaking is on really forgiving carpet or moist vegetation that won't crackle when you put weight on it.

I fully agree with Kraynic. There is no contested roll for prowl and perception. I get really confused as to why so many people think there is - I don't see any mention of such things in any of the books.

Prowling in Palladium is really hard - the skill percentage is awfully low. And it often only takes one of a party to fail and give away a whole group. Why add to that by creating an additional chance to fail even if you have passed?
I use the perception rolls in the opposite way - if you make your prowl roll, you successfully prowl, but if you fail, there is always a chance that no-one spots or hears you, depending on circumstances, so I may make a perception roll for whoever is around to see if they notice the snapped twig or whether you luck out and get away with your fumble.

Tracking and counter-tracking is in the book, page 52: "Characters attempting to follow a skilled tracker who is deliberately trying to conceal his trail suffer a penalty of -25% to stay on him". If you make your counter-tracking roll, the tracker is -25% to their skill.

I changed the skill system in my games to be a roll high situation with the + per level being a bonus to the roll rather than being applied to skill itself....there are multiple scenarios that a skill versus skill can and should apply but the skill system as it works is a pain to use for such things. (detect ambush versus concealment, detect concealment versus concealment or camouflage, etc)

That said the simplest is as posted above, largest margin of success wins.

As for Prowl versus perception....I've done it this way: Prowl roll made. For every 5% of success (round accordingly) a -1 penalty is applied to the perception check to be detected.

Soldier of Od wrote:I fully agree with Kraynic. There is no contested roll for prowl and perception. I get really confused as to why so many people think there is - I don't see any mention of such things in any of the books.

Prowling in Palladium is really hard - the skill percentage is awfully low. And it often only takes one of a party to fail and give away a whole group. Why add to that by creating an additional chance to fail even if you have passed?
...

Because Prowl has no counter, if the NPCs make one good roll the PCs never detect them.

If the PCs never detect the NPCs, then as a GM I must say "well, they made their rolls, you never saw who planted the bombs, and now you take 60MD. You were asleep, so you weren't wearing armor, so now you are all dead."

GM makes the rolls, PCs die, Players never get one roll.

Same thing but less dramatic, "The NPC made their stealth roll, you do not get a counter roll. Your stuff was stolen, take your power armor off your sheet."

"The enemy has a sniper. He made his roll, you cannot see him. Dave the wizard is dead, his head exploded, and that's the only reason you know Snipey is out there."

Sure, as a GM I'm sometimes looking to do unfair things, but as a hook to great adventure, not because Bill the bandit rolled an 03 on prowl.

Players love uncontested prowl, if they're successful they win. How do they feel about it when the enemies do the same?

ITWastrel wrote:Because Prowl has no counter, if the NPCs make one good roll the PCs never detect them.

If the PCs never detect the NPCs, then as a GM I must say "well, they made their rolls, you never saw who planted the bombs, and now you take 60MD. You were asleep, so you weren't wearing armor, so now you are all dead."

GM makes the rolls, PCs die, Players never get one roll.

Same thing but less dramatic, "The NPC made their stealth roll, you do not get a counter roll. Your stuff was stolen, take your power armor off your sheet."

"The enemy has a sniper. He made his roll, you cannot see him. Dave the wizard is dead, his head exploded, and that's the only reason you know Snipey is out there."

Sure, as a GM I'm sometimes looking to do unfair things, but as a hook to great adventure, not because Bill the bandit rolled an 03 on prowl.

Players love uncontested prowl, if they're successful they win. How do they feel about it when the enemies do the same?

I guess I don't see the situation fitting how things were rolled.

If the situation (thinking about modifiers here) changes, should the original roll stand forever, or do you reroll? If you are applying the skill to a new action, does the original roll stand or do you reroll?

To my mind, the scenario you put forth would require at least 3 rolls.
1) Let us say that the bandit doesn't need to roll to make it to the camp due to everyone being asleep. However, actually entering camp should require a roll. Due to close proximity to sleeping enemies, there is no distance to attenuate any noise made, so that might very well be a -20% to prowl, so make a prowl check at with that penalty to make it to the armor. If successful, proceed.
2) Now you need to gather up something that isn't made to be silent, and is probably more silent when on a body than it is being handled loose (I suppose this depends on the exact design). You still have the close proximity, are now dealing with something that is difficult to keep quiet, and need to bundle it up in order to sneak out of camp with it. Let's say handling the armor is -30%, so you have a total of -50 on the skill for this check. If successful, proceed.
Just as a note here, I don't believe someone would be able to put on armor in this situation without rousing someone, and attempting to do so would lead to discovery. Other people's opinions may vary.
3) You now have the armor bundled up, but need to sneak back out. You still are in close proximity to the enemy. You also are carrying a bulky bundle that makes you heavier and messes with your balance a bit. Let's say that is -20%, so you make the 3rd roll at -40 to the skill to exit camp. If successful, proceed.

To my mind, you never just make one roll and say it stands forever. Every time something changes in what you are doing, you roll again. Depending on the environment outside camp, it might be reasonable to increase the rolls in this scenario to 5. There might be one made at normal proficiency to approach camp, and another moving away from the camp with the -20 from carrying the bundle of armor. And those penalties are just something off the top of my head for a camp that is left totally undefended. Suddenly the odds don't look that great for pulling it off.

Wow, I did not know there were actual rules for this in RUE! Once again, Prysus finds the facts for us!

Just going back to ITWastrel's point, I agree with Kraynic again - it would not be so easy for an NPC to carry out any of those tasks with just one simple prowl roll. Stealing power armour? I would have thought it impossible to do that so quietly - no prowl roll could even be attempted. Setting bombs? Well at the very least there would be multiple prowl rolls with penalties - and demolitions rolls.
And in any case, that would be a dick move by a games master. Even if the players had earned the ire of Jimmy the Mad Bomber, and had not bothered to post a guard or keep watch, just killing them while defenceless is no fun for anyone involved. The problem is the GM putting them in that situation where one NPC roll could kill the party while they are all asleep, not the result of a roll. I don't think that "I rolled 3% for prowl, you're all dead" is any worse than "I rolled 3% for prowl, you rolled 2 for perception, you're all dead".

If it was possible for the NPCs to achieve those things, it is not necessarily the end anyway. Someone steals their power armour while they're asleep? You don't just say "Your stuff was stolen, take your power armor off your sheet" - what sort of lame GMing is that? You can say "You wake up to a shock as you immediately see your beloved power armour is missing! You see the heavy footprints of the armour in the mud across the camp and leading into the woods beyond - you may have to act quickly before the trail goes cold!" Even if there is no sign of where there stuff has gone, maybe the players can find out where local bandits may hang out, or where they fence their stolen goods, or whatever. If the players know they are in "bandit country", but don't bother to keep watch, then there is definitely a chance they will be targeted and may find their stuff stolen. But these are paths to adventure, not punishments for players.

Franko Tyrador wrote:How do you handle a skill vs skill check: prowl vs perception, or, tracking vs counter-tracking, etc.?

There's no official way to handle general skill vs skill situations.

I personally go with each player rolling percentile dice, and the person who rolls highest without failing their skill wins the skill contest.

That way somebody with a 90% skill at something is still likely to beat somebody with a 10% skill at something, assuming that each still makes a successful skill check; the odds are good that the person with 90% is going to roll higher than 10, but it's impossible (without the houserule below) that the person with the 10% skill check will roll higher than that without failing their check.

I've also sometimes gone with a houserule that a person rolling their exact skill percentage gets a Critical Success; somebody with 45% Prowl who rolls an actual 45 would see the results of a successful check be roughly double what was expected (a carpenter could carpent twice as many or twice as fast, etc.)
In skill contests, the result of a Critical Success would be that their contest number would count as 2x their actual roll; a person with 10% Prowl who rolls a 10 would effectively have a 20 when comparing their number against their opponent(s).
So a more-skilled person who has Prowl 20% who rolls a 19 or less would fail the contest in this case.

Soldier of Od wrote:I fully agree with Kraynic. There is no contested roll for prowl and perception. I get really confused as to why so many people think there is - I don't see any mention of such things in any of the books.

Yes to be clear there is not a stated method for how this works but I have found it is really important for a GM to have one ready so you don't need to come up with it at the table.

Soldier of Od wrote:Prowling in Palladium is really hard - the skill percentage is awfully low. And it often only takes one of a party to fail and give away a whole group. Why add to that by creating an additional chance to fail even if you have passed?
I use the perception rolls in the opposite way - if you make your prowl roll, you successfully prowl, but if you fail, there is always a chance that no-one spots or hears you, depending on circumstances, so I may make a perception roll for whoever is around to see if they notice the snapped twig or whether you luck out and get away with your fumble.

Yes prowl is obscenely difficult so I to don't make a failed skill lead to automatic discovery.

First if you are dealing with guards I determine if they are scanning the area with sensors, in that case it is a contested roll prowl vs. read sensory equipment or optics.

If they are just observing the area with their five senses, then I the prowl sill is used as part of the bonus or penalty to them detecting the person. All I do is take the amount of success or failure of the prowl skill divide it by five (five due to the difference between 20 sided vs. 100 sided) and rounding up then apply it to perception roll.

Player rolls prowl and succeeds by 16% they add 4 to the perception difficulty. If they failed by 16% then a bonus of 4 would be added to the perception roll.

I have experimented with converting perception to a percentage, but this system works well enough.

Soldier of Od wrote:Tracking and counter-tracking is in the book, page 52: "Characters attempting to follow a skilled tracker who is deliberately trying to conceal his trail suffer a penalty of -25% to stay on him". If you make your counter-tracking roll, the tracker is -25% to their skill.

I actually ignore blanket bonuses and penalties like this in favor of my contested rolls. I find that players prefer active defense to just a set penalty.