Globe of Silence

[Veknironth]

Well, I was looking over the descrpition of the spell and, surprise surprise, there is some important information left out. It says, on page 201 of the Main Book, that once the spell has been cast, it can be "mentally moved by the spell caster". Now, since the spell can only be cast 90 feet away, I'm going to assume the globe can only be moved within a 90ft radius with the caster at the center. However, what the description omits is how quickly the spell caster can move it. Can they zip it around at a glance within the 90ft radius? Does the globe move at a fixed speed? Does it take an attack to move the globe?

Also, it says, "...thus a spell caster, reliant on spoken incantations, is completely powerless inside a globe of silence because his words cannot be heard." Spells need to be heard? By whom? Does that mean a spellcaster alone in the desert cannot cast a spell? What about being in a room by yourself?

-Vek
"----"

[Kraynic]

I"m not sure what later books say, but the first edition states that you can't cast anything else while moving the globe, so it requires concentration to move. There is no speed listed, so you could certainly rule that it can move anywhere within range at the cost of an action. If there is a similar spell that has a movement rate, then you could go with that, I suppose.

Incantation, according to Merriam-Webster:
a use of spells or verbal charms spoken or sung as a part of a ritual of magic also : a written or recited formula of words designed to produce a particular effect

In the case of the spell casters of Palladium, written doesn't factor in for most magic, while there is a verbal component to pretty much all of them. If you can't speak the words, you can't summon/channel the power, so you get no effect.

[kiralon]

I'd say that if you are concentrating on it you can move it freely once in a round, and then spend an action to do so again if you wanted to. This is to allow you to keep it on someone so they don't just walk out of it and cast, and you cannot move it onto multiple wizards freely at the start of their turn. So now an enemy wizard has to move further than 90ft away from you to be able to cast again.

I think of the verbal part of a spell as a sound based spell component, just like using a bit of web to cast a web spell. If spell is missing a component then no spell.

[Veknironth]

Well, that's mostly what I thought - if you want you can cast the spell you can keep it on top of someone within 90 ft. You essentially use your attacks to nuetralize another spell caster. Since most mages have the same number of attacks per melee, the mage A can keep the globe on top of mage B. The question is with initiative. If Mage B wins initiative and moves out of the globe with the 1st attack can that mage cast a spell before Mage A moves the globe?

-Vek
"I still don't know how having your words be heard is the important part."

[Kraynic]

"I still don't know how having your words be heard is the important part."

I don't think it has much to do with having your words heard. Vocalization is part of how you summon and control "the magic energy" of whatever type you are interacting with. If you don't/can't vocalize, you don't get access to the magic. Pretty simple.

Edit: I'm thinking your childhood might have been horribly lacking in the correct formative literature.

A passage from Giftwish by Graham Dunstan Martin:
From a Chapter entitled: A Disquisition upon Sorcery

"You see," went on Caperstaff, "magic is not as people suppose. It is not just a matter of learning a few strange words off by heart in some outlandish tongue, and trotting them out on every suitable occasion. You get that kind of wizard in Feydom. Indeed, they are almost the only kind of wizard Feydom has. They have been through the books - through the Book, even - with a fine-tooth comb. They have learnt all the formulae off by heart and can say them perfectly. They choose their time and place with care. Full moon, when the office of Milady Mena the Measurer is open. Or the new moon, when the office of the stars most efficient. Caves, to be nearest the heart of the earth. Or towers, to be nearest the sky."

"But do you know those strange coloured birds from the East? Parrots, they call them? Now, would you entrust... well, even your shopping to a parrot? And certainly not your spells! No, the words have no meaning, the places and times have no meaning, there is no power in them at all unless the wizard knows the words. I don't mean by heart, but knows them, has lived them. So, even a stumbling spell, half forgotten, stammered out in broken phrases by a man who feels its meaning in his heart - even such a spell may work. Whereas all the smooth parroting of Feydom, learnt from a book, will get you nowhere."

<snipped out a couple paragraphs>

"All the tastes and colours, all the scents and textures of the world. They are locked away in the bottom of your mind, covered up by language. Language, you see, is like money. A set of little coins you change and exchange without thinking. Do you think, as you weight a penny in your hand, "This is a loaf of good brown bread"? No. In the same way, as you use the word "bread", you don't think of the thing itself, the barley grains on the tongue, the hunger rising in the stomach. No, you just cast the word 'bread' down there on the counter like a coin. It's a token, simply, not a real thing."

Of course, this is all leading to the thought that there is such a thing as real words, that are directly tied in mind to real things, and used with intent result in... well... magic. That is what people dabbling in wizardry do. They know the true words that resonate in their soul to energies of the world, and their use causes change in person and world. They have to be fully real and vibrant to the person speaking them. Whether they are real to the person hearing them is pretty much irrelevant. That is what saving throws are for after all.

[drewkitty ~..~]

all the questions are things individual GMs decide for themselves.

[Kraynic]

And from the entry on the wizard:
2E page 104:

Wizardry is the science of spell magic, invoking magic energy
through force of will and the spoken word; incantations. Spell magic re­
lies on the speaking of arcane spells that are said to have their roots in
the days when the Great Old Ones ruled the world. The properly spoken
words can summon, direct, or unleash great forces in the blink of an
eye. No components, no diagrams, no deity and little, if any, prepara­
tions are required; merely the spoken word and sufficient magic energy
(P.P.E.) will do the job.

And a paragraph or 2 later:

It is the properly spoken repetition of words or series of words that
invokes and ignites the spell into being. These incantations are carefully
guarded and rarely shared, even with a fellow wizard. Thus, wizards
usually disguise the words of the incantation amidst a string of mean­
ingless gibberish, often mumbling the true key words. Furthermore,
spell incantations are often whispered so quietly that they are barely
audible.

[Veknironth]

Well, perhaps I didn't explain my confusion about the words being heard. I know how the magic system works in Palladium games. However, in the description for the spell in the main book on the bottom left hand corner of page 201, it states

Those within the globe can't hear anything, thus a spell caster, reliant on spoken incantations, is completely powerless inside a globe of silence because his words cannot be heard.

The italics are mine. So, that line implies that it's the hearing of the incantation that is important not the speaking of it. The description doesn't say, "Because the caster cannot speak". I think that's what is intended, but it isn't what is written and I thought it was curious to funny that it was written that way.

As for the meat of my question about the spell and how quickly or easily it could be moved, of course it's up to the GM. But so is everything else. What I'm doing is soliciting opinions and hoping for a consensus so that if it comes up in a game that question has been thoughtfully discussed already. I wouldn't want a GM to have to make a snap decision that could have rammifications later in the game, or to slow down the game as the table or on Roll20.

-Vek
"Perhaps I have misunderstood the forums."

[Kraynic]

If you understand the magic system, and you read the quotes from the core book that I posted above, you can easily see that it has nothing to do with the target hearing the spell. It is all about the wizard, and the relationship between the wizard speaking the words out loud to focus intent, and the final shaping of the magic being channeled.

In a Globe of Silence, his words cannot be heard. Of course they can't. Who needs to hear them? The wizard in question trying to cast a spell.

[Veknironth]

Well, of course I know how magic works in Palladium. All I'm saying is that it's a strange way to describe the spell not working. The way magic works, the globe prevents you from speaking since everything is silenced. That seems to be the main function. It's not that the mage, or anyone else can't hear it. It's that it cannot be spoken aloud due to the silence. If it's a function of a mage hearing the invocation he or she is making, then a deafened mage couldn't cast a spell. A mage in a loud environment couldn't cast a spell. A mage wearing really good earplugs couldn't cast a spell. Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing about hearing a spell that determings whether it can be cast successfully. It just has to be spoken. The only reason I mentioned it is because the spell description singles out the hearing portion and doesn't mention the speaking portion. I think this is just a mistake that wasn't edited out and might have been corrected in a later book. In fact, I think that a mage could have his or her ears inside the globe but have his or her mouth outside the globe and still cast a spell. So, sure the globe prevents the spell from being heard, but that's not what prevents it from being cast. It's the fact that the mage cannot audibilize the incantation, due to the slience, that prevents the spell from being cast.

Now, does anyone have any thoughts on how easily/quickly the globe can be moved? Can it bounce back and forth as fast as the caster can shift his or her gaze? Does it have a rate? If so, what is that rate? How would that work in combat? Does the Mage just have the ability to move it around within 90 ft to keep it on top of someone without using attack actions? If the target of the spell wins initiative, can that caster step out of the globe and rip off a quick spell in one action before the casting mage can place the globe back into position?

-Vek
"Yeah I like to debate a bit too much."

[kiralon]

As I mentioned earlier, if the caster can move it freely he can move it from person to person at the start of each of their actions, so would be able to prevent anyone within 90ft from casting, and doesn't mention mention a speed I'd say it can be moved as glance speed, so instantaneously. So I'd give the caster 1 free action to move it, so he can move it onto the target at the end of the targets move, and then allow him to hold his action to move it if the target has any further actions, so if the target moves, his held action is to move it to where the target stops.
However I play if a player wants to move in a round, his first action has to be when the major move is done, because if they have movement left in a round and an action to do so they can only move 10ft per action after the first action. (Doesn't stop teleport etc though)

[Prysus]

Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing about hearing a spell that determings whether it can be cast successfully. It just has to be spoken. The only reason I mentioned it is because the spell description singles out the hearing portion and doesn't mention the speaking portion. I think this is just a mistake that wasn't edited out and might have been corrected in a later book.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, it's possibly a mistake, though I'll put forward an alternate theory. Yes, the Incantation must be spoken, but why? The Diabolist O.C.C., on page 117, has a heading titled Power Words. There we are told ...

When a power word is spoken, there is an invisible ripple of magic energy that transcends both space and time, allowing the person invoking the power word to tap directly into mystic energies. Where the magic energy ... [snip] ... originates, or why the speaking of a mere word (combined with force of will) enables the speaker to draw upon and direct the energy, is a mystery ... [snip] Some fear that magic energy is drawn from the slumbering Old Ones ...

So what if speaking isn't about just uttering words, but another force being able to hear those words? The incantation could work more like a prayer. The words must be spoken, and the mystic force must be able to hear those words and to grant the wish. Now the Old Ones are suggested as one possible entity, but it may not even be something so sinister. In this case, I'm going to think more of The Flash (DC) and The Speed Force. The Flash taps into the Speed Force to use his powers. If he's severed from it (cannot hear the incantation), then he loses his powers. I'm not saying this is the case, just that if hearing is a critical aspect something like this could be the reason why.

Now, does anyone have any thoughts on how easily/quickly the globe can be moved? Can it bounce back and forth as fast as the caster can shift his or her gaze? Does it have a rate? If so, what is that rate? How would that work in combat? Does the Mage just have the ability to move it around within 90 ft to keep it on top of someone without using attack actions?

Well, no rate is provided. So I'd say the mage can move it any distance (within range) at an instant. Furthermore, I'd say this does NOT cost an action. HOWEVER, the mage cannot cast any magic as long as the Globe of Silence remains moveable (per the write-up). The spell states the caster cannot cast another spell, but does not state they cannot take another action. As such, I'd say free action, but requires concentration to maintain and cannot cast other magic. I'm thinking of this like a video game (for a bit of visual). As long as you're controlling the spell you can keep moving it. However, if you ever pause or put the controller down, then the spell becomes stuck in place and can no longer be moved. But taking actions/attacks doesn't (in my opinion) break that concentration, only attempting to cast more magic (or losing focus in another manner, or looking away and trying to leave, etc.).

If the target of the spell wins initiative, can that caster step out of the globe and rip off a quick spell in one action before the casting mage can place the globe back into position?

This would probably depend on which version of magic you're using. In most of the Megaverse, movement costs an action and casting magic costs an action (or requires time and you can't take action while casting), so you wouldn't be able to run to a new location AND then cast a spell. With the Mysteries of Magic version, and depending on how you rule movement and actions ... uh ... maybe? This would really come down to a lot of house rules of how you handle these particular features. But in my games, it wouldn't be possible (unless, of course, the caster placed the Globe of Silence to a stationary position, in which case you can't move it any more and you can easily run out of the range).

Anyways, mostly wanted to provide some thoughts on the matter. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Veknironth]

Well, Prysis and Kiralon make sense with the free action. But as you might expect, that brings up another question for me. If you can zip that globe around the 90' radius, could you interrupt multiple spells being cast in a single attack action? Essentially, we're thinking that the mage can move it at a glance or with a thought, so he or she can zip it all over the place, almost instantaneously. And it's not like the globe has to be on the caster the for the entire incantation. It just has to be there enough to prevent the full incantation from being spoken. This would be similar to a spell being disrupted during casting by being struck or taking damage.

Of course, this is assuming that the globe caster can somehow determine that these spells are being cast, and that the ENTIRE incantation must be spoken (and heard?) for the spell to take effect. That you can be disrupted by taking damage implies that the incantation must be complete so in theory this works? It makes a lot more sense for a spell that has a longer cast time. Spells that take half a round are begging to be interrupted. The ones that only take one action would be a bit more difficult.

-Vek
"Or maybe that's too powerful."

[kiralon]

To me, the spell is designed to stop 1 mage from casting unless he is a much higher level than you. I do not think a level 2 wizard should be able to totally negate the casting of a wiaard 10 levels higher than him with such a simple spell. Otherwise a party would just load up on silence scrolls and stop enemy casters with ease, because ii think the verbal component isn't mentioned with scrolls and you just have to be able to read the language they are in