Guns and Damage (math discussion)

slade the sniper · Sat May 14, 2022 10:28 am

Putting this here to see if it generates any discussion...

Muzzle Energy of the projectile x bullet diameter (in decimal inches) = A = cube root of A x 4.5 = maximum damage for that specific bullet and caliber

This means that faster bullets do more damage, AND bigger bullets do more damage so that velocity alone nor caliber alone can determine the damage potential.

This is purely for the math minded and does not take target nor bullet type into consideration, yet.

-STS

Hesse09 · Unread post by **Hesse09** » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:38 am

His magic enabled him to use stealth and guile to elude their hunters. Instead of using his heavy robots, he had kept them in reserve the whole time, burying them under mounds of vines and moss and shutting down their power armor when not in use.

PapaMambo · Unread post by **PapaMambo** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:30 pm

slade the sniper wrote:Putting this here to see if it generates any discussion...

Muzzle Energy of the projectile x bullet diameter (in decimal inches) = A = cube root of A x 4.5 = maximum damage for that specific bullet and caliber

This means that faster bullets do more damage, AND bigger bullets do more damage so that velocity alone nor caliber alone can determine the damage potential.

This is purely for the math minded and does not take target nor bullet type into consideration, yet.

-STS

I understand this all too well. I joined the Canadian Military back when I was 17 (30ish years ago).

We were just going through the process of switching over from the old FN C1's - a 7.62mm beast that packed some pretty serious punch to the smaller, much lighter C7 a 5.56mm analogous to the M-16A2.

Old timers b!+ched non stop about the smaller caliber not having the stopping power of the venerable C1. And they were sort of right. The C1 could reach out and touch someone at greater distances and penetrate body armor much more easily.

However, the C7 was lighter (and I mean WAY lighter) so you could carry more ammo. It fired faster, so it threw a wall of lead down range, and while it didn't have the reach and penetration of the C1, it did MASSIVE damage to soft targets because it had a faster velocity AND it tumbled when it hit a target. The fact that it looked like a pinhole entering a target and a dinner plate sized exit wound made up for the PV of the C1.

Being a medic, I've seen pics and video of the massive trauma a relatively small caliber bullet can cause because of that tumbling and velocity.

Then you move up to something like the Barrett .50BMG and all this is a moot point. Velocity combined with mass just destroys targets and at ranges that are crazy.

slade the sniper · Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:47 pm

So, to resurrect this thread from the swamps of doom... The caliber, bullet weight and type are given. the "Damage" is the maximum damage at the muzzle. I have most of these figured out to 200m for the rifles, but still need more research to nail them down. Anyway, I feel these are far more "realistic" than the abysmal trash in D20, or the over-hyped GURPS. The closest numbers in an actual RPG are those in Palladium games (shockingly).

Of course bullet type and construction are massively important as well since some types of rounds are trash for penetrating any sort of cover or armor, but hitting unarmored targets at close range they cause enormous damage.

Spoiler:

I also used the same formula for hand to hand combat as well but halved the damage since the implement and target are the same material (human flesh) thus reducing overall penetration.
arm = 5.335% of total mass 45 mph max punch Fist size 3.5 inches diameter
leg = 17.555% of total mass 69.75 mph max kick Foot size 4 inches diameter

Which gives me the following values for the attacker:
Punch Kick
100 pounds 5.335 pounds 17.555 pounds
150 pounds 8.00 pounds 26.33 pounds
200 pounds 10.67 pounds 35.11 pounds

So, for a 250 pound human punching at 45 mph, the damage is 8 (or 1d8)
A 250 pound human kicking at 70 mph (using the Frank Dux record) the damage is 23 (or 4d6 for ease of dice)

For larger guns, missiles, etc. I take the published data for armor penetration and doubled the mm of penetration to equal the damage. So a weapon with 200mm of penetration in armor would do 400 damage (1d4x100). This keeps the weapons well within the published stuff of Palladium.

Here is a list of missiles I have dug up.

Spoiler:

Here are some kinetic penetrators (and some HEAT rounds I didn't take out yet...)

Spoiler:

I left the year of service entry on there to show the continued advancement of the tech... from roughly 350 damage at a thousand meters at the close of WWII, to roughly 1500 damage at 2 km in the early 2000's.

Now, on to armor. Palladium has the PV system and so I am using that to model damage all the way up to MDC.

The Armor Rating stops DOUBLE the PV. The SP is how much damage is needed to penetrate it in the first place. Note that AR 20 is MDC and at that point only weapons that do 100 points of damage can damage the object.
AR Always Stops PV SP
AR 1 PV 0 5 SP
AR 2 PV 1 10 SP
AR 3 PV 1 15 SP
AR 4 PV 2 20 SP
AR 5 PV 2 25 SP
AR 6 PV 3 30 SP
AR 7 PV 3 35 SP
AR 8 PV 4 40 SP
AR 9 PV 4 45 SP
AR 10 PV 5 50 SP
AR 11 PV 5 55 SP
AR 12 PV 6 60 SP
AR 13 PV 6 65 SP
AR 14 Stops .50 cal (with a PV of 7) 70 SP
AR 15 PV 7 75 SP
AR 16 PV 8 80 SP
AR 17 PV 8 85 SP
AR 18 PV 9 90 SP
AR 19 PV 9 95 SP
AR 20 PV 10 only MDC weapons penetrate 100 SP

DU rounds doubles damage and increases PV by 50% (PV 7 to 10)
AP rounds PV+2

Increasing tech helps damage and armor.
Going up to Robotech level technology the damage increases by ~x50 and armor increases by ~x10.
Rifts level tech increases damage by ~x100 and the armor tech increases by ~x20 over modern standards.

These figures were arrived at by looking through Rifters, the Contemporary Weapons book, the Golden Age Weaponsmiths upgrades and the older Robotech books.

Oh, yeah you can get non-explosive reactive armor (NERA) to reduce explosive damage (HEAT) by 1/2. You can also get explosive reactive armor (ERA) that also reduces explosive damage (HEAT) by 1/2 again. This also works on the majority of missiles listed in the Palladium missile charts. In Robotech and Rifts you can get laser resistant armor to resist lasers and cut that damage by 1/2 as well.

I am debating whether to say DU armor would cut kinetic penetrator damage in half and doubling the weight, or if it would be better simulated by just adding more armor to the vehicle (more SDC/MDC)? The DU armor might just be oriented in a particular direction so that only certain directions are protected with it.

Finally, active protection systems (APS) that basically intercept the incoming projectile before it hits your tank. I would say just give it a % to intercept incoming weapons. Figure 60% to 80% to intercept missiles, 40% to 50% to intercept cannons. If you have a high tech setting, you can probably get some form of aerosol or chaff to dissipate or degrade energy weapons and those can be 20% to 30% due to the speeds involved.

So, yeah, that is my big chart of damage from punches to anti-tank missiles and kinetic penetrators. I hope it is of some use to you.

edit: To make use of the Palladium damage charts (from 1-10 from the old Contemporary Weapons books and still found in some of the games focused on modern settings) you can basically say that damage ratings 1-10 are all SDC damage and that once you get into damage rating 11, that is when you finally do over 100 points of damage per round and is thus 1 MDC.

-STS

Forums of the Megaverse®

Guns and Damage (math discussion)

Guns and Damage (math discussion)

Re: Guns and Damage (math discussion)

Re: Guns and Damage (math discussion)

Re: Guns and Damage (math discussion)