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Anyone have ideas on how best to use a surprise check, skill vs surprise, etc?

Perception roll

The org. text is in the Nightspawn core book and duplicated in the NightBane core book.
It was imported to the Rifts game with the RUE core book.

For me its for every %5 that the roll is made by gives a -1 to the perception check, with environmental modifiers.
but i also added a perception stat (which is also a modifier for ranged weapons)

kiralon wrote:For me its for every %5 that the roll is made by gives a -1 to the perception check, with environmental modifiers.
but i also added a perception stat (which is also a modifier for ranged weapons)

Which skill roll are you talking about?

prowl normally, but whatever skill is hiding some. Camouflage would work too for ambushes.

Well, I prefer it less with a roll and more a consideration of the situation. If the PCs come up with a good plan for surprising someone and they execute it well then give them a free attack or two. If you want to factor in the OODA Loop, you can give them a full 1/3 of their attacks before someone reacts. Or, a free attack and automatic initiative is a good compromise. The same would work if the PCs stumble into a a trap. Then again, doesn't every group have at least one member with psionics? If so, you have good old Sixth Sense to ruin all surprise.

If you have two people who round the corner on each other, neither knowing the other is there would be double surprise which I'd just chalk up to initiative.

If you are diabolical, you can put real time pressure on someone when they're surprised to give them little time to think. Like the player is actally surprised. But I seem to be the only proponent of that here.

-Vek
"But I tell you. Giving the player seconds to make a decision or their attack is forfeit will speed up combat."

Veknironth wrote:-Vek
"But I tell you. Giving the player seconds to make a decision or their attack is forfeit will speed up combat."

My players hate it when i do this lol. i also tell them that if they have to figure out their standard combat bonus for striking or parrying or dodging they fail as well. This speeds things up a bit too.

So, prowl skill, if passed, will get you a surprise on an enemy? how does their perception or spot ambush come into play? i like Vek's idea of if it is planned right, it should succeed, for an ambush, but if someone has to sneak, then it is a skill check.

So, one option, adapted from Hackmaster, would be "Highest initiative goes first, and you're surprised until your initiative comes up (in the first round)". Then, you have the circumstances of surprise give an initiative bonus.

So, the ambushers roll their initiative, and get a bonus due to their plan. The ambushed roll their initiative, and don't get any bonus above their own. The ambushers don't get any extra attacks or anything, but they do get attacks against people who aren't aware and can't adequately defend themselves (in Hackmaster, that has them roll their defenses on a d8, instead of a d20).

Veknironth pretty much nailed how I've always handled it, in every game in every system. This is the sort of thing where having a living, breathing brain GMing the game comes in handy. Consider the situation, determine the outcome. No need for a roll in most cases unless there's some unknown variables (a guard they didn't know about watching over the area), in which case things like Perception and Stealth/Prowl checks come into play.

If you're the types of players/GMs who prefer just blind stupidity in dungeon crawls "I burst through the door and all of us storm in," I guess I can see the appeal of needing a mechanic for that. But... that's not my preferred style of play. By a very, very long shot. Even with Palladium's games.

Franko Tyrador wrote:So, prowl skill, if passed, will get you a surprise on an enemy? how does their perception or spot ambush come into play?

There is always skill involved in an ambush as well as good planning, detect ambush is one of the skills that if you do not let a player roll before even a well planned ambush, tends to irritate them.
But the way i do it is generally this

Say bob is trying to ambush/backstab a guard on patrol duty on some manor grounds

The guard has a perception of 12, and is a good guard and alert
Bob has a distraction off one direction, and comes in from behind
Bob has a prowl skill of %68, and rolls a 21, so makes it by 47, dived the 47 by 5 and that is -9 to the guards perception check which takes it to 3 (which is a d20 stat check roll)
The guard is alert +4, has awareness +2, but is distracted -8 and on a well lit garden path with only grass and the odd shrubbery around +8.
For the guard to notice bob coming up and tickling his kidneys with his short-sword he has to roll a 9 or lower to notice bob. If bob had done this on the part of the path with trees and bushes around: light cover (-4), the guard couldn't make it as he would need to roll -3 on a 1d20.

Well, Kiralon brings up an interesting question. Is Detect Ambush a passive skill or an active one? Is the PC constantly on the look out for an ambush and the GM rolls for the PC or asks the PC to roll? Or does the PC have to announce that he's looking for one and then roll? I go with the second one. No one can be alert all the time. That's sort of what 6th sense does, right?

-Vek
"Also, Kiralon, all those calculations for surprise?"

Veknironth wrote:Well, Kiralon brings up an interesting question. Is Detect Ambush a passive skill or an active one? Is the PC constantly on the look out for an ambush and the GM rolls for the PC or asks the PC to roll? Or does the PC have to announce that he's looking for one and then roll? I go with the second one. No one can be alert all the time. That's sort of what 6th sense does, right?

To me, it is going to be more of an occupation/experience question on both sides. A martial or wilderness survival focused character is going to be more likely to be looking for ambushes than someone who isn't. Or, maybe I should say that they would be more likely to spot sites that would lend themselves to an ambush. I find it really hard to believe that someone needs a skill to hunker down behind a piece of cover and stay quiet until someone comes along. I get why a skill like that was created to make a specific roll for the mechanical side of things, but that is one of those "skills" that just seems incredibly silly to me personally.

The mundane way to prevent being ambushed is to have at least one (though preferably all) of the following:

Good knowledge of the area, so that you know in advance the places where you need to be the most cautious.
Scouting ahead by one or more people, off the main trail if possible, so that those lying in wait can be spotted from a different angle.
Don't take a predicable route, so that the attacking party has to search for you instead of simply lying in wait.

Anything else is just relying on luck or incompetence on the part of the ambushing side. If you want to go the luck route, then the dice rolls make sense. If incompetence is there, it shouldn't require a dice roll to be spotted in my opinion.

Veknironth wrote:"Also, Kiralon, all those calculations for surprise?"

Most of the time surprises have been planned out already so its not really an issue, not to mention i have a handy little table that helps, also i only tend to roughly calculate it on surprise surprises and only do it fully if the rolls are close. Never usually takes more than a minute however.
The one that can be a bit trickier is the ranged combat required to hit number, but yet again, there is a table i have that helps.

Most of the time surprises have been planned out already so its not really an issue, not to mention i have a handy little table that helps, also i only tend to roughly calculate it on surprise surprises and only do it fully if the rolls are close. Never usually takes more than a minute however.
The one that can be a bit trickier is the ranged combat required to hit number, but yet again, there is a table i have that helps.

Do you mind sharing those tables. Curious to see what you developed.

Franko Tyrador wrote:Most of the time surprises have been planned out already so its not really an issue, not to mention i have a handy little table that helps, also i only tend to roughly calculate it on surprise surprises and only do it fully if the rolls are close. Never usually takes more than a minute however.
The one that can be a bit trickier is the ranged combat required to hit number, but yet again, there is a table i have that helps.

Do you mind sharing those tables. Curious to see what you developed.

PM me ur email address and ill send it through

I do the same as Vek - surprises are more narrative assasinations.

Unless the surprise is an improved hide or something. If I need to its a prowl or perception (one roll for the players - not both. Theyre not opposed rolls).

The Dark Elf wrote:I do the same as Vek - surprises are more narrative assassinations.

Unless the surprise is an improved hide or something. If I need to its a prowl or perception (one roll for the players - not both. Theyre not opposed rolls).

Just curious, what do you do when player(s) have detect ambush?

While I'm obviously not Dark Elf, I just completely got rid of Perception as well as all of those related skills (ID Undercover Agents, Find Contraband, etc.), and then made Perception a skill. You know, like it should have been from the start. I then apply situational modifiers as appropriate depending on what the players are looking for in any given situation.

kiralon wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:I do the same as Vek - surprises are more narrative assassinations.

Unless the surprise is an improved hide or something. If I need to its a prowl or perception (one roll for the players - not both. Theyre not opposed rolls).

Just curious, what do you do when player(s) have detect ambush?

I would use that instead of a perception check if they actively use it. I may even lower the difficultly for the subconscious perception check for that individual.

thanks all. good input.