Question about Supernatural Strength

[PapaMambo]

So, looking through the various books at different characters, and I'm wondering HOW any character can get a Supernatural PS over a certain amount. I'm seeing characters with SNPS scores of 100+ and this shouldn't be possible according to the rules as written.

Extraordinary and Superhuman Strength allow you to add not only your base PS, but also added strength from Physical skills. Supernatural Strength doesn't allow this, so essentially the cap for SNPS is much lower, even though the lift/carry amounts are higher.

So, I guess the question is, are most of you ignoring the no physical skills bonus when creating a character with SNPS? A newly rolled Mega with Tremendous PS rolling the maximum of 30 for PS and using SNPS and Tremendous PS as the mega ability has a cap 92. Looking at the Denizen, he's pretty much the max possible stat wise, with high gravity, rhino and increased mass giving him a 132. Though, I've seen others that are close or outright exceed that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

first line of bonuses the SNPS power...

Bonuses: Add 30 +2D6 points to the reguler P.S. attribute roll.

So a char with the SNPS super ability gest a minimum score of 35 and a maximum score of 60. This is exclusive of any PS bonuses you get from other Super abilities.
Note: For the SNPS super abilitiy, PS bonuses from skills are excluded from the SNPS super ability score. ( Sidenote: none of the super strength super abilities stack with each other.)

Another thing is that some chars have SNPS without having the SNPS super ability.

[Soldier of Od]

So, looking through the various books at different characters, and I'm wondering HOW any character can get a Supernatural PS over a certain amount. I'm seeing characters with SNPS scores of 100+ and this shouldn't be possible according to the rules as written.

Extraordinary and Superhuman Strength allow you to add not only your base PS, but also added strength from Physical skills. Supernatural Strength doesn't allow this, so essentially the cap for SNPS is much lower, even though the lift/carry amounts are higher.

So, I guess the question is, are most of you ignoring the no physical skills bonus when creating a character with SNPS? A newly rolled Mega with Tremendous PS rolling the maximum of 30 for PS and using SNPS and Tremendous PS as the mega ability has a cap 92. Looking at the Denizen, he's pretty much the max possible stat wise, with high gravity, rhino and increased mass giving him a 132. Though, I've seen others that are close or outright exceed that.

Yeah, that maths looks right to me. I guess the writer "fudged" the rolls to get the almost maximum P.S. they were going for in their character concept. Writers are allowed to do that! But it is still possible within the rules. So, what characters are you seeing that are not possible according the the rules as written?

[EliBenedict]

The short answer is, they fudged the math (or just messed it up.)

That said, using just the core HU2 book, it is possible to have a 1st level character with a Supernatural PS of 216: A Mega Alien Mutant with a base PS of 30, with a Humanoid Mineral form (+26), from a High Gravity World (+8). It's got the Stocky (+4) and Extra Large Hands (+4) mutations. It takes the Tremendous Strength mega power (+20) and rolls up two major powers: Growth and Supernatural Strength (+42). It's starting PS is 134 (Supernatural)

Now it grows. It's starting PE is also 30. It gets another +6 for Growth. It's practiced Acrobatics (+2), Athletics (+1), Gymnastics (+2) and Running (+1). Its final PE is 42, allowing it to grow 84 feet, bringing its PS to 216.

Of course that depends on getting maximum rolls across the board. But even with merely average rolls, this character has a base PS of 97, and can boost it to 137 with growth.

If you're willing to wait a bit, instead of two major powers, you could take Unstable Powers (Powers Grow With Age.) Now you get Growth at 1st level, along with two minor powers. The obvious choices would be Extraordinary Physical Endurance (+11 PE) and Healing Factor (+8 PE), allowing you to grow another 38 feet. At 3rd level, you'd take Supernatural Strength, bringing your PS to 254. You'll pick up another 3 major powers on your way to 15th level: Animal Traits (Hoofed) (+8 PS, +8 PE), Animal Traits (Bear) (+6 PS, +18 PE) and Alter Physical Structure: Metal (+28 PS). Your final PE is 87. Your base PS is 148 (Supernatural), but when you grow another 174' tall and turn to metal, it becomes 350 (Supernatural)

Thats pretty much non-debatable RAW.

On the more contestable side: as drewkitty noted, you can only take one kind of super-strength. But there's nothing in the RAW that specifically precludes you from taking the same kind of super strength more than once (of note, the NPC Mach Two from "Mutant Underground" does something similar, taking Sonic Speed twice. swapping out Animal Traits and Alter Physical structure for another three helpings of Supernatural Strength would , bringing your maxed out PS to 380 (Supernatural)

Of course, once you go down that path, one could argue that you could also take Extraordinary PE and Growth more than once, at which you get the most bang by taking Extraordinary PE twice, and Growth five times. Now your final PE is 88. Your "normal" strength is *only* PS 90 (Supernatural), but you can grow 880' (88x2x5) boosting your PS 970 (Supernatural)

[PapaMambo]

The short answer is, they fudged the math (or just messed it up.)

That said, using just the core HU2 book, it is possible to have a 1st level character with a Supernatural PS of 216: A Mega Alien Mutant with a base PS of 30, with a Humanoid Mineral form (+26), from a High Gravity World (+8). It's got the Stocky (+4) and Extra Large Hands (+4) mutations. It takes the Tremendous Strength mega power (+20) and rolls up two major powers: Growth and Supernatural Strength (+42). It's starting PS is 134 (Supernatural)

Now it grows. It's starting PE is also 30. It gets another +6 for Growth. It's practiced Acrobatics (+2), Athletics (+1), Gymnastics (+2) and Running (+1). Its final PE is 42, allowing it to grow 84 feet, bringing its PS to 216.

If you're willing to wait a bit, instead of two major powers, you could take Unstable Powers (Powers Grow With Age.) Now you get Growth at 1st level, along with two minor powers. The obvious choices would be Extraordinary Physical Endurance (+11 PE) and Healing Factor (+8 PE), allowing you to grow another 38 feet. At 3rd level, you'd take Supernatural Strength, bringing your PS to 254. You'll pick up another 3 major powers on your way to 15th level: Animal Traits (Hoofed) (+8 PS, +8 PE), Animal Traits (Bear) (+6 PS, +18 PE) and Alter Physical Structure: Metal (+28 PS). Your final PE is 87. Your base PS is 148 (Supernatural), but when you grow another 174' tall and turn to metal, it becomes 350 (Supernatural)

Thats pretty much non-debatable RAW.

On the more contestable side: as drewkitty noted, you can only take one kind of super-strength. But there's nothing in the RAW that specifically precludes you from taking the same kind of super strength more than once (of note, the NPC Mach Two from "Mutant Underground" does something similar, taking Sonic Speed twice. swapping out Animal Traits and Alter Physical structure for another three helpings of Supernatural Strength would , bringing your maxed out PS to 380 (Supernatural)

Of course, once you go down that path, one could argue that you could also take Extraordinary PE and Growth more than once, at which you get the most bang by taking Extraordinary PE twice, and Growth five times. Now your final PE is 88. Your "normal" strength is *only* PS 90 (Supernatural), but you can grow 880' (88x2x5) boosting your PS 970 (Supernatural)

Sounds like this needs to be in that Mega-Giga Munchkin thread.. ouch. Punching people turns them to mist and punching a building turns it to rubble.

[EliBenedict]

Huh. Just noticed this text under the "Mullitiple Limbs" minor power:
"Note: This is the only super ability that can be taken twice"

So I guess the above suggestion isn't RUE compliant. In which case the maximum PS with core book is 174 or 350 when giant-sized.

Regarding Supernatural Strength vs. Superhuman Strength, the bonus for the Supernatural Strength power is 30+2d6, compared with 20+2d4 for Superhuman Strength. The sum total of PS bonuses from all Physical skills is +10. So even with the limitation against using physical skills to boost PS, Supernatural Strength (+37) will, on average, end up giving a higher score than Superhuman Strength with Acrobatics, Athletics, Boxing, Bodying Building, Gymnastics and Wrestling (+35).

[Stone Gargoyle]

I guess my question would be why do you need to be that strong? You get to the point where you are crushing things by touching them if your strength is that high. At least that is how I rule it in my games. My house rule is you have to pull punch to prevent crushing damage if you have a huge PS damage bonus.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean, it's a superhero game. It's kind of like asking why you need to be as strong as a fully raging Hulk if you're already as strong as Spider-Man. If their powerset revolves around being the "strongest man alive" you'd kind of expect them to try to be as strong as they could.

[PapaMambo]

I guess my question would be why do you need to be that strong? You get to the point where you are crushing things by touching them if your strength is that high. At least that is how I rule it in my games. My house rule is you have to pull punch to prevent crushing damage if you have a huge PS damage bonus.

Well, for me it isn't so much about the damage bonus. When you're dumping an extra 50 or 60 damage per punch, 5 or 10 extra doesn't make that much of a difference.

More than anything, it's the lifting and carrying amounts.

Like if I were to classify Marvel characters,

Ext PS would be someone like Captain America. Super Soldier at the peak of physical perfection. Might not be able to toss cars around, but can certainly throw a motorcycle without breaking much of a sweat.

Superhuman would be Spidey - some serious snap to his punch and with the proportionate strength of a spider, could easily stop a car or throw one if need be.

Then there's everyone's favorite Jade Giant with Supernatural Strength throwing Main battle tanks that weigh 100 tons without breaking a sweat. Except there's really no commensurate jump in lifting values in HU.

I saw someone's post about adding Cosmic Strength, and that might honestly be more what I'm looking for ‐ nothing like punching a moon in half, but more like being able to stop a building or bridge from falling and crushing people under its weight.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note the the writers of the gamebooks have "creative license" to make their chars as strong as they want w/o following the text of the books. So Yaahh they fudged their attribute scores.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I mean, it's a superhero game. It's kind of like asking why you need to be as strong as a fully raging Hulk if you're already as strong as Spider-Man. If their powerset revolves around being the "strongest man alive" you'd kind of expect them to try to be as strong as they could.

That's what creative gameplay and teamwork are for. At some point you need to give the character a challenge that is beyond their limits as an individual. A GM can't do that if a charracter is so munchkinized that everything is easy for them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean, it's a superhero game. It's kind of like asking why you need to be as strong as a fully raging Hulk if you're already as strong as Spider-Man. If their powerset revolves around being the "strongest man alive" you'd kind of expect them to try to be as strong as they could.

That's what creative gameplay and teamwork are for. At some point you need to give the character a challenge that is beyond their limits as an individual. A GM can't do that if a charracter is so munchkinized that everything is easy for them.

Yeah, it's really hard to take out the big dumb musclehead who's entire powerset is devoted to making him super strong. Being able to squash anyone with his fists makes him invulnerable to everything else, you see. Speedsters able to easily dodge every attack? Nope, he got squonched anyway because muscklez > everything else. Mentalist able to shut him down with basically a parlor trick? Nope, he can smash good so he can, like, just bonk his head and make the psionics go away somehow. Ranged attacks? Nope, he punches those energy beams clean out of the air or something. Levitate him five feet of the ground and just leave him dangling there? Nope, he, uh, punches the air to free himself or something. Illusions? Nope. Time manipulation? Nope. Power draining? Nope. "He has muscles, don't you get it man?!?"

If it wasn't obvious, I was being slightly sarcastic there.

But the gist is this: Being super strong is probably the world's easiest power to counter. But if the character is also invulnerable to everything else, that's on the GM for allowing the player to create a munchkin rather than the problem lying with the power of super strength. Conceptually or otherwise.

Nevermind that the GM's characters don't have to follow the same rules as PCs. This is true in all forms of fiction, including comics, movies, and TV shows. Just look at the CW's Flash show, where Barry Allen started every episode babbling incoherently about how he was the "fastest man alive" when practically every major villain he encounterd was waaaaay faster than he was every season and they had to figure out some other way to take them down. XD So if a player has a character who can punch holes in mountains, the GM just introduces a villain who can punch holes in planets or whatever. And then everyone gets to watch the two most boring characters with the single most boring superpower ever duke it out. Whooptido. (Personally I'd rather watch Color Kid--whose only power is changing the color of stuff--armwrestle, I dunno, a drunken koala or something. But that could just be me. Irrelevant to the conversation as this aside is.)

Also, see Hulk vs. Thanos.

And again, if the character's entire concept is that he's the "strongest man alive," it's really lame if he's only slightly better at punching stuff than Captain Whoever over there who can also teleport, breath radioactive fire, and whatever else, too.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see value in adding a superpower which greatly increases carrying/lifting capacity, but doesn't increase damage. It would help model the sort of superstrength seen in some source material. Perhaps for anything less than Supernatural Strength it would be a minor power, while SN Strength would be major. I'd have to dig up some thrown item damage tables to see just where the potential damage would have to be changed, and am unsure to what degree a thrown item's surface area and density should affect how it affects a target. For instance, if Captain Muscles throws a train at a target only a certain amount will actually strike the target.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I could see value in adding a superpower which greatly increases carrying/lifting capacity, but doesn't increase damage. It would help model the sort of superstrength seen in some source material. Perhaps for anything less than Supernatural Strength it would be a minor power, while SN Strength would be major. I'd have to dig up some thrown item damage tables to see just where the potential damage would have to be changed, and am unsure to what degree a thrown item's surface area and density should affect how it affects a target. For instance, if Captain Muscles throws a train at a target only a certain amount will actually strike the target.

I wrote just such a power at one point for the New Powers thread. I will post it here now for your perusal.

Strength of the Titans (Major) by Stone Gargoyle
"Here, let me lift that."
The character can lift phenomenal weight when standing on earth that has not been covered by concrete or other artificial or man-made substances. In addition, he can lift objects made of earth of even greater weight.
1. Superhuman Strength: Same as the minor superability (HU2 main book, page 236).
2. Unearthly Lifting: The character has increased lifting ability with regard to lifting natural earth.
*When standing on open soil or natural rock, the character's strength is multiplied X50 for the purpose of lifting and carrying.
*If lifting objects made of stone or natural rock (including types of clay, marble, and slate), it is multiplied X100! Since this only applies to objects made of earth and rock, it will not function if anything non-mineral is touching the rock being lifted. It will also not lift anything made of processed metal ore, such as steel or gold bricks. Items lifted must be in their natural form for this power to take effect.
3. Other Abilities and Bonuses:
+2d4 PE
+1d4X10 SDC