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Opinion needed. sword vs sword or axe vs shield... easy. those can parry. what about a man wielding an axe vs a brown bear. stats for the bear: Bonuses: +2 on initiative, +4 to strike, +2 to parry. so, a bear can parry an axe? knight with a sword vs a chimp: Bonuses: +2 on initiative, +3 to strike, +2 to parry, +2 to dodge

what about dodging. does the dodge use an attack as normal for animals or other non-hominoids? i would assume so and have always played like that, but curious as to what everyone else says/does.

Franko Tyrador wrote:Opinion needed. sword vs sword or axe vs shield... easy. those can parry. what about a man wielding an axe vs a brown bear. stats for the bear: Bonuses: +2 on initiative, +4 to strike, +2 to parry. so, a bear can parry an axe? knight with a sword vs a chimp: Bonuses: +2 on initiative, +3 to strike, +2 to parry, +2 to dodge

For simplicity a Parry is supposed to block an attack, what that block looks like is another matter (it likely blocks the weapon, but it could also "block" the limb somehow). Though it should be noted on pg43 (PF2E main book) under Step 3 for combat rules, you can parry a weapon w/o another weapon object, but you do so without bonuses (end of paragraph with Parrying in bold, second paragraph of the section). That would mean the brown bear could parry an attack by a person w/weapon, but they do so with a straight die roll.

Franko Tyrador wrote:what about dodging. does the dodge use an attack as normal for animals or other non-hominoids? i would assume so and have always played like that, but curious as to what everyone else says/does.

Unless otherwise indicated a Dodge will always consume one attack action, Auto-Dodge (and Leap Dodge, mechanically the same) do not obviously. Though off hand I cannot think of an instance where this is true (megaversally).

As a bear doesn't have a hth skill they do not get autoparry, but in saying that I have had a few tpk's to bears and boars.
But i play aggressive animals as aggressive, you go near em, they attack (Simultaneous strike), this tends to take the wind out of the players sails, not to mention my house rules mean a player cannot parry a rhino charge with a knife (or a 2 handed sword for that matter).
I give the smaller dodgy animals multiple dodge, i.e they roll 1 dodge roll for the round that you have to beat, but generally the animals leave the players alone.

Well, as Kiralon and Logan said, the rules do somewhat address this. With no H2H skill, and no weapon, the animal can only parry with a straight die roll and it will take an attack. So, why would it bother? They should just dodge or rely on natural armor/SDC and attack with no regard for defense. If they take too much damage, they'd likely retreat. Most animals try to attack things they beleive they can easily overcome, unless they're attacked or defending something.

-Vek
"This would apply to elementals, and unarmed zombies, and such."

Veknironth wrote:Well, as Kiralon and Logan said, the rules do somewhat address this. With no H2H skill, and no weapon, the animal can only parry with a straight die roll and it will take an attack. So, why would it bother? They should just dodge or rely on natural armor/SDC and attack with no regard for defense. If they take too much damage, they'd likely retreat. Most animals try to attack things they beleive they can easily overcome, unless they're attacked or defending something.

-Vek
"This would apply to elementals, and unarmed zombies, and such."

But why do some animals get a parry bonus? again, a Palladium discrepancy.

Franko Tyrador wrote:

Veknironth wrote:Well, as Kiralon and Logan said, the rules do somewhat address this. With no H2H skill, and no weapon, the animal can only parry with a straight die roll and it will take an attack. So, why would it bother? They should just dodge or rely on natural armor/SDC and attack with no regard for defense. If they take too much damage, they'd likely retreat. Most animals try to attack things they beleive they can easily overcome, unless they're attacked or defending something.

-Vek
"This would apply to elementals, and unarmed zombies, and such."

But why do some animals get a parry bonus? again, a Palladium discrepancy.

For when they try to parry unarmed attacks.

My guess is the combat rules are for characters only, as otherwise creature that use tooth and claw would be severely disadvantaged without a hth style and without wp's. Demons come to mind, for example being mostly without a hth skill either, otherwise
Hand to Hand Combat: Fighting skills that provide the character with attacks per melee, bonuses, techniques and special moves. Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee round and have no automatic chance to parry or special moves. (page 42 of main second ed book)
or
No Hand to Hand Combat Skill: Characters with no combat training get only one attack per melee at levels one, six and 12. Any attempt to dodge counts as a melee action. Likewise, this character does not get an automatic parry; any attempt to parry counts as one melee attack/action. The player must announce whether his character is attempting to parry or dodge; no announcement means no parry or dodge is made. To prevent the loss of an attack, the non-fighter must hold his ground, taking any damage from the attack, and then strike back. Any bonuses to strike or parry are from what few weapon skills (W.P.) or P.P. bonuses the character may have. (page 43 of main book)
occurs.
So i play it animals will not parry, and will mostly only dodge/simultaneously strike and intelligent monsters get an unknown hth skill with usually unknown weapon proficiencies. Dragons for example have hth Huge and wp claw, wp tail and wp bite.

kiralon wrote:My guess is the combat rules are for characters only, as otherwise creature that use tooth and claw would be severely disadvantaged without a hth style and without wp's. Demons come to mind, for example being mostly without a hth skill either, otherwise
Hand to Hand Combat: Fighting skills that provide the character with attacks per melee, bonuses, techniques and special moves. Characters without combat training only have one attack per melee round and have no automatic chance to parry or special moves. (page 42 of main second ed book)
or
No Hand to Hand Combat Skill: Characters with no combat training get only one attack per melee at levels one, six and 12. Any attempt to dodge counts as a melee action. Likewise, this character does not get an automatic parry; any attempt to parry counts as one melee attack/action. The player must announce whether his character is attempting to parry or dodge; no announcement means no parry or dodge is made. To prevent the loss of an attack, the non-fighter must hold his ground, taking any damage from the attack, and then strike back. Any bonuses to strike or parry are from what few weapon skills (W.P.) or P.P. bonuses the character may have. (page 43 of main book)
occurs.
So i play it animals will not parry, and will mostly only dodge/simultaneously strike and intelligent monsters get an unknown hth skill with usually unknown weapon proficiencies. Dragons for example have hth Huge and wp claw, wp tail and wp bite.

All of the demons in the main book get special demon hand to hand combat skills; I'm assuming all the demons in other books do to, but I haven't checked!
It looks like dragons also get instinctive combat skills as per the Dragons & Gods book, though only a couple of them specifically say they are "equivalent to hand to hand: basic" or similar (and those are not the "fighty" dragons). The large amount of "physical attacks" (not "actions") granted to dragons implies that they are equivalent to hand to hands.
I agree most animals will rarely parry, if ever. Have you ever been attacked by a dog? They don't dodge much! If they do, they move right out of the way - avoiding the attacker altogether rather than attacking themselves, which would fit with the Palladium combat rules: the animal can choose to use an action to attack (or simultaneous attack), or to forego its attack completely and defend (dodge).

Soldier of Od wrote: I agree most animals will rarely parry, if ever. Have you ever been attacked by a dog? They don't dodge much! If they do, they move right out of the way - avoiding the attacker altogether rather than attacking themselves, which would fit with the Palladium combat rules: the animal can choose to use an action to attack (or simultaneous attack), or to forego its attack completely and defend (dodge).

When I run wolves, I hold one action back specifically for dodging, since the main idea is for them to surround/flank their prey. While the one in front of you is dodging, the one or 2 at your back are moving in for the kill.

There's tons of examples of animals, such as bears, slapping weapons/implements out of people's hands. Especially in fiction, but it's not limited to that.

Kraynic wrote:

Soldier of Od wrote: I agree most animals will rarely parry, if ever. Have you ever been attacked by a dog? They don't dodge much! If they do, they move right out of the way - avoiding the attacker altogether rather than attacking themselves, which would fit with the Palladium combat rules: the animal can choose to use an action to attack (or simultaneous attack), or to forego its attack completely and defend (dodge).

When I run wolves, I hold one action back specifically for dodging, since the main idea is for them to surround/flank their prey. While the one in front of you is dodging, the one or 2 at your back are moving in for the kill.

Makes a lot of sense.

1st edition the animals had a lot of attacks. I always remember thinking it was a lot and then when we played and I used those attacks to dodge it balanced out the encounters.