How does a Dominator Star Fortress stack up against RT/M2?

[ShadowLogan]

Now the Dominators in the 3G setting are presented as packing the most devastating warship-class in the setting. It has weapons that out range and out damage anything the 3G powers can deploy, and the ship size and armament quantity is also nothing to dismiss out right. However, how does the Dominator's Star Fortress actually stack up against former PB Licensed Properties of Robotech and Macross 2? For clarity I am going to look at both Editions of the Robotech RPG under Palladium, all settings are going to be considered in RAW stat format.

Now to determine damage, I am going to assume an average roll on a die (1d6=3.5, 1d4=2.5, etc). For the BFGs that destroy everything in their path, I am using the damage for the beam striking a planet for Robotech/Macross2 rather than fired out into open space (for uniformity, and the DSF is certainly "moon-sized", which for game purposes IMHO would put it into Planet size for effects purposes), and the DSF's cannon's firing at separate targets. I am also going to ignore firing arcs for simplicity but will restrict all guns to the same range category (which RT/Macross can match). No one will be allowed to close the gap to bring additional guns to bear.

Damage is also for the first melee of combat (15 seconds). Rate of Fire is being enforced. The only issue is if BFGs that can fire only 1per 8minutes might prevent the firing of other weapons which might be enforced in actual game play (even as a house rule), though here I am not. If you don't agree with this, then extend the combat duration to two melees, one for all the BFGs and one for the other guns, though here some vessels in the mix might not have the BFG restriction and could then in theory provide fire for x2 melees instead of the calculated x1 melee that is being presented here.

Macross 2 Licenced Setting
There are 3 categories of ships to consider, human built UN Spacy Vessels (including the SDF-1), UN Spacy converted Zentran Vessels, and Marduk Vessels.

Human Built UN Spacy Vessels
We can safely ignore all the human origin vessels. None of them have a weapon that matches or exceeds the range of a Dominator Star Fortress gun battery. They basically fall into the same range gap as the Phase World Ships.

UN Spacy Converted Zentran Vessels
The standardized Heavy Particle Beam Weapon on 3 of the 5 class of ships has a damage out put that would only require 4 of these ships to be present to destroy a DSF.

Now if a Dominator is allowed to return fire (as in a simultaneous action or it wins Initiative), they you will need enough ships to soak the ~38,000,000 MDC it will unleash. Now you could just say they have x113 Zentran Flagship-class vessels to employ, but that seems a bit unlikely. Now the Command Ship is a bit wonky in terms of MDC due to the vessel separating, which leaves us with the Destroyer Class. The end result is that a Force of x1 Zentran Flagship and x419 Zentran Destroyers (+4 if you don't have the Flagship) would have sufficient MDC to leave at least one working ship. Now if you want to get technical, you could trade ship types to reduce the numbers by including Carrier-Class vessels as they have more MDC than a Destroyer, but less than a Flagship, which means... x1 Flagship and x3 Destroyers could be supported by x187 Carriers to achieve the same result, which seems more believable than sending in x113 Flagships together alone. If you include the Scout class to act as a meat shield you would need x10 Scouts for every Carrier you replace.

It should also be noted, those "meat shield" ships can contribute damage to. For instance, those x187 carriers, even though they lack a HPBW would have enough collective firepower in their retractable turrets and mega-lasers to exceed the damage output of a DSF, so they don't even need the Flaghship or destroyers for firepower.

Marduk Vessels
As with the UN Spacy Converted Zentran Vessels, you only need 4 ships that mount the Heavy Particle Beam weapon. The one exception is the Marduk Base/Fortress, if it fires its x3 (yes) Heavy Particle Beam Weapons, along with the other x4,600 other beam weapons at its disposal, it could destroy a DSF with plenty to spare (inflicting ~34 Million MDC to a 23 Million MDC structure).

Now if a Dominator is allowed to return fire (as a simultaneous action or it wins Initiative), then you will need enough ships to soak the ~38,000,000 MDC it will unleash. And A Marduk Base/Fortress just can't alone.

As with the UN Converted Zentran vessels the Marduk ships you would only need x1 Flagship, x3 Destroyers, with support from x178 Battleships. And as with the UN Spacy, those Battleships can contribute fire (not enough to destroy it on their own alone, but...).

Robotech FIRST EDITION Licensed Setting
Robotech Factions can be broken down into: Zentreadi, Robotech Master, Invid, and Human for all 3 generations.

Human Vessels
The SDF-1 and ARMD of the RDF, along with the Southern Cross Shuttles can not match the weapons range of a DSF. The REF Garfish also lacks such a weapon, leaving only the SDF-3 and the Ikazuchi-class. While the SDF-3 does have a pair of Reflex Cannons (Heavy Particle Beam Weapon) at its disposal, they do not have the required range requiring the SDF-3 to use lower power weapons (the SDF-3 is also a one-of-kind ship in the fleet). This means that the SDF-3 would need the support of ~2,190x Ikazuchi-class ships to destroy a DSF, which would also give it enough MDC that there would be multiple survivors if a DSF could attack them.

One additional note, the SDF-3 and the Ikazuchi both have protective force fields which I did not consider in terms of MDC (it effectively doubles the MDC on the Ikazuchi and triples the MDC on the SDF-3), but since their greatest drawback is damage out put it really only changes the number of ships that would survive.

Zentreadi Vessels
Just before the time of its destruction in Robotech, the Zentreadi Armada numbered over 5.5 million warships. That means if every Zentreadi ship available at the time appeared and could inflict only ~5 points of damage to the DSF, the DSF would be destroyed. And at best the DSF could only take out 5,103 ships (1 for each emplacement), though that is being generous and assuming each emplacement could takeout a Zentreadi ship. And yes the last battle of the Zentreadi Armada DID see 5.5million warships assembled so it is something the Zentreadi have been demonstrated to do.

The Zentreadi Vessels also use standardized weapons like in the Macross 2 line with similar performance (in most cases identical between the two lines), even their MDC (for the main body of the ship) is the same (exception was the Command Ship, RT is lower). The main difference is in the number of Retractable Laser Turrets they have between the two lines. That means you only need 4 ships with the Heavy Particle Beam (Reflex) Cannon, but you will still need additional ships if the DSF can return fire, at minimum x187 Landing Ships plus x3 Destroyers and x1 Flagship.

Robotech Master Vessels
The only Robotech Master Capital Ship to be considered in the 1E of the game was the Cityship/Mothership. It mounts an Electro-magnetic Fission Beam that is the equivalent of x2 (yes x2) Heavy Particle Beam/Reflex Cannons. That means you only need x2 of the ships to destroy a DSF. Now if the DSF can return fire you'd need x64 Cityships to soak the DSF's damage output.

4 more points on this vessel:
1. in terms of damage output this is the most powerful alien vessel in the setting as stated (only exceeded by the SDF-3 overall).
2. the ship does have a force field for protection, but that was not considered here.
3. if the EMFB is unavailable, you would need x177 of these vessels for enough damage output to destroy a DSF.
4. the ship as stated in the 1E RPG has numerous restrictions on it, this assumes any ship in this class is fully fueled and operational

Invid Vessels
The Invid have only 3 means of interstellar travel, The Troop Carrier, the All-Terrain Invid Assault Carrier, and an ability by the Regent/Regiss that in the show was used to destroy multiple vessel-sized objects simultaneously that got in the way. The Troop carrier is unarmed, and I am not going to consider the Regent/Regiss ability since it lacks stats for this mode of use in the RPG.

Now in order to just destroy a DSF it would require 4,600x All Terrain Invid Assault Carriers, which would also give it more than enough MDC to weather the damage output of a DSF (by a factor of 5). There is just a slight problem, per the book the available fleet is only 200 ships strong at best.

Robotech SECOND EDITION Licensed Setting
Unfortunately, the SECOND EDITION of the Robotech license nerfed ship weapons as compared to FIRST EDITION for all ships. The greater FIRST EDITION ranges are more in line with what the show established (Zentreadi ships firing from Lunar Orbit at Earth's surface).

Technically the SDF-4's Sycnro-cannons do have the range but will require multiple ships of this class to fire and then there is the handling the DSF damage output. The SDF-4 is IINM a one-off-design, and the only other ship that might have similar capabilities is the SDF-3 (also a one-off-design), but AFAIK the SDF-3 hasn't been covered. As such there really isn't anything to consider here IMHO.

[green.nova343]

Part of the issue is that the UN Spacy weapons are, to some extent, based on the old 1st Edition rules...& under that kind of system, the Human-built UN Spacy vessels would never have a chance against even rogue Zentran/Meltran ships, as they would be heavily outranged. That's a potentially different discussion, as is the issue with missiles in space.

I will point out, however, that the UN Spacy Corvette has 4 Laser Turrets with the same range (200,000 miles in space) as the DSF's primary & secondary guns, albeit less powerful (1D4x1000 per blast, but can fire twice/melee). They're basically identical to the Retractable Beam Turrets on a DSF. I would also point out that, while not quite as long-ranged (although see the prior paragraph), the Macross Cannon ships have a Main Gun as powerful as the Heavy Beam Cannon.

The UN Spacy Zentran ships & the Marduk ships, in addition to any Heavy Beam Cannons, are also listed as having a "Main Laser" (1D8x1000, same 200,000 mile range, 2 of these on the Marduk Dreadnought), as well as a number of Laser Turrets (1D4x1000, 200,000 mile range, anywhere from 4 on the Scout to 110 on the Flagship/116 Marduk Flagship, 350 on the Marduk Dreadnought).

What I find interesting is that the DSF is very similar to Ingues' Base Ship: 3 Heavy Beam Cannons (roughly equal to the DSF's), 100 Heavy Lasers (roughly equal to the DSF's in number but not power), but only 4,500 Retractable Laser Turrets (equal to the 5,000 Retractable Beam Turrets on a DSF), plus 180 "Torpedo Tubes" that fire charged plasma packets (damage depends on charge time, 1 melee = same as the Laser Turrets, 4 melees = same as a DSF's Heavy Beam Cannons, but limited to 200,000km. Interestingly enough, Ingues's ship is 500 billion tons vs. 9 trillion for a DSF, but roughly similar in size...plus has over 5 million mecha to send out...

[camk4evr]

I don't have the books readily available and in fact may no longer have some of the books due to issues ralating to a move so I have to go from memory on this but and DSF that attacks a Robotech or Macross II fleet, even using the RPG stats, is utterly screwed unless it attacks Earth during the first Robotech War (maybe sorta).

With the exception of humanity during Robotech: The Macross Saga every Robotech/ Macross II fleet has multiple ships that have weapons that do damage equal (in the RPG stats which generally nerfed everything) to the Dominators main weapon (IIRC all three of the DSF's cannons have to fire at the same target at the same time to do equal damage to a Reflex, Synchro, or Super Dimension Cannon) even if the range was half of what it should be in some books. Further almost all the fleets of Macross II/Robotech RPGs (except the human fleet of the 2nd ed. Macross saga) have several hundred to several thousand ships with dozens (or more) of weapons with lesser damage but equal range to the DSF's Main weapons.

Before I forget to mention Macross Saga Earth only had to Super Dimension/Reflex cannons by the end of the Macross Saga. One was on the SDF-1 Macross and the other was the Grand Cannon which, I believe is the largest such weapon shown, so far,in the Macross or Robotech franchises. If a Dominator saw that firing they'd wet their pants and run assuming it missed.

Seriously, I wasn't joking when I said, in an earlier thread, that a Zentraedi fleet could destroy any faction in the Three Galaxies. Well almost any, there's always that pleasure federation (whatever the heck it's called)^_^

[ShadowLogan]

I will point out, however, that the UN Spacy Corvette has 4 Laser Turrets with the same range (200,000 miles in space) as the DSF's primary & secondary guns, albeit less powerful (1D4x1000 per blast, but can fire twice/melee). They're basically identical to the Retractable Beam Turrets on a DSF. I would also point out that, while not quite as long-ranged (although see the prior paragraph), the Macross Cannon ships have a Main Gun as powerful as the Heavy Beam Cannon.

You're right about the Corvette, I guess I missed that and the Macross (SDF-1) BFG. The Corvette's only viable guns in this assesment, are #4 and I guess it would be asking too much for weapons to be ordered by longest reach first. The Macross I skipped over thinking it would be like the RT version.

This said, it would take x1 Macross (SDF-1) Vessel and x1,250 Corvettes to destroy a DSF, but in order to soak that much damage you'd need x1 Macross (SDF-1) and x3,800 Corvettes (at this point the SDF-1 could be dropped considering the damage output of the combined Corvettes, though to soak the DSF damage you'd need x1 more Corvette).

The UN Spacy Zentran ships & the Marduk ships, in addition to any Heavy Beam Cannons, are also listed as having a "Main Laser" (1D8x1000, same 200,000 mile range, 2 of these on the Marduk Dreadnought), as well as a number of Laser Turrets (1D4x1000, 200,000 mile range, anywhere from 4 on the Scout to 110 on the Flagship/116 Marduk Flagship, 350 on the Marduk Dreadnought).

I considered only weapons with a range of 200,000miles (or better) from RT/M2 since those are reason that they matched the range of the main weapons of the Dominator Star Fortress. In this way no ship would have a range advantage and I wouldn't have to factor in travel time (is the Dominator shooting at them or not). It also means that some weapons are ignored on the vessels (like Missile Launchers and the "Light" Lasers) since they would not be able to fire. But yes, I do factor in the damage output of the Main Laser and Retractable Laser Turrets if available. The only real question is if the BFGs (Reflex Cannons in RT, Heavy Particle Beams in M2, Anti-Matter Cannons on the DSF) can fire simultaneously with the lighter weapons.

[green.nova343]

I will point out, however, that the UN Spacy Corvette has 4 Laser Turrets with the same range (200,000 miles in space) as the DSF's primary & secondary guns, albeit less powerful (1D4x1000 per blast, but can fire twice/melee). They're basically identical to the Retractable Beam Turrets on a DSF. I would also point out that, while not quite as long-ranged (although see the prior paragraph), the Macross Cannon ships have a Main Gun as powerful as the Heavy Beam Cannon.

You're right about the Corvette, I guess I missed that and the Macross (SDF-1) BFG. The Corvette's only viable guns in this assesment, are #4 and I guess it would be asking too much for weapons to be ordered by longest reach first. The Macross I skipped over thinking it would be like the RT version.

This said, it would take x1 Macross (SDF-1) Vessel and x1,250 Corvettes to destroy a DSF, but in order to soak that much damage you'd need x1 Macross (SDF-1) and x3,800 Corvettes (at this point the SDF-1 could be dropped considering the damage output of the combined Corvettes, though to soak the DSF damage you'd need x1 more Corvette).

The UN Spacy Zentran ships & the Marduk ships, in addition to any Heavy Beam Cannons, are also listed as having a "Main Laser" (1D8x1000, same 200,000 mile range, 2 of these on the Marduk Dreadnought), as well as a number of Laser Turrets (1D4x1000, 200,000 mile range, anywhere from 4 on the Scout to 110 on the Flagship/116 Marduk Flagship, 350 on the Marduk Dreadnought).

I considered only weapons with a range of 200,000miles (or better) from RT/M2 since those are reason that they matched the range of the main weapons of the Dominator Star Fortress. In this way no ship would have a range advantage and I wouldn't have to factor in travel time (is the Dominator shooting at them or not). It also means that some weapons are ignored on the vessels (like Missile Launchers and the "Light" Lasers) since they would not be able to fire. But yes, I do factor in the damage output of the Main Laser and Retractable Laser Turrets if available. The only real question is if the BFGs (Reflex Cannons in RT, Heavy Particle Beams in M2, Anti-Matter Cannons on the DSF) can fire simultaneously with the lighter weapons.

That's always been a big issue with space combat under Palladium, no matter the setting, especially for ships with such large crews that there's not a single "gunner" controlling everything. There's abstracting combat, & then there's being too abstract.

I figure the most reasonable course is that the controlling player selects their best option first, based on the target they're shooting at. If firing at a massive target like a DSF (or the DSF is firing at a large fleet), you lead with your most damaging weapons first (i.e. the Heavy Beam Cannons that do millions of MDC). Then you follow up with the lesser weapons, whether or not they can fire once or twice per melee.

[Warshield73]

Finally had the chance to look over your numbers and they look pretty solid. I also can’t disagree with most of what I have seen here, just a few added points though. For context, when Fleet of the Three Galaxies came out one of the first thing we really looked at was the Dominator ship, it might have even been in a sneak peak that you could download before the book came out but I might be misremembering that. The ship I created for the Dominators a decade earlier was heavily based on some Zentraedi ships from 1E, with some stuff from Mechanoids, but the weapons were more in line with 3G. It was, however, monstrously powerful and my players thought for sure that the Dominator ship in the book would be far less powerful.

When we actually went over it we were just floored. It was so insanely powerful we couldn’t believe it. We even spent several hours on a spreadsheet running numbers against Three Galaxies ships and another set almost identical to yours comparing it to 1e Robotech. 2e ships appeared to be weaker so we didn’t bother and by the time we broke out the Macross II books we were kind of tired of it.

While your numbers are dead on I think some context is needed:

First, Robotech and Macross II ships are completely different. There are large numbers of ships for all factions that have weapons ranges in the hundreds of thousands of miles. Also, those ships have sub-light drives that are significant fractions of the speed of light, while in Phase World ship speeds are in mach, always below 20.

When comparing the DSF to Robotech/Macross ships you need to remember a few things.

Every weapon on a DSF can do significant damage to the R/M ships. Those ships have MDC in the thousands so even the lightest weapon will destroy them in a few rounds, espacial since there are 5,000 of them. The only weapon R/M ships have that can do do any damage to a DSF with 20 MILLION MDC is there main guns which do damage in the millions. Take both sides primary weapons out of the game and the DSF would wipe the floor with all but the largest fleets.

Also the DSF Wormhole Drive allows the DSF to leave faster than anyone can follow so can always retreat. Now this is a bigger deal in the 3G scenario than against the R/M ships as those ships have that fast sub-light but still a factor. The Life-Force Reactors allow for regeneration of damage at 30,000 MDC per hour when at rest or 6,000 MDC per hour during battle. This means that even if attackers reduce the 20 Mil. MDC outer hull to near zero it can still escape and regenerate. Now it will take about 666 hours, or 27 days, to do so it can return to a battle long before ships from the other side can be repaired or replaced.

You also have the Electric Reactive Armor which gives half damage from all kinetic attacks including anti-matter and nuclear missiles. This means that the biggest, most destructive weapons in the setting that it is in and the main way smaller vehicles like fighters and battle pods would damage it are almost useless. Combine this with the plasma shockwave weapon and those hordes of TBP’s might as well stay in the hangar.

Lastly, you did this 1 DSF against how many ships but if you read the books groups of 3 to 12 aren’t uncommon and at one point a fleet of 66 attacked Phase World. I have never gotten great numbers on Robotech and I know nothing about Macross II outside of the gaming books but do either of these settings have enough ships to deal with 66 DSF’s?

I honestly don’t know but what I do know is that in the setting it is in, Phase World, it can not be beaten by even the largest fleet of ships.

[ShadowLogan]

it might have even been in a sneak peak that you could download before the book came out but I might be misremembering that

I don't think I still have it (if I do it would be in an old archive backup), but yes they did do a Sneak Preview PDF.

we didn’t bother and by the time we broke out the Macross II books we were kind of tired of i

There really wouldn't be much need. While the M2 Zentran/Marduk ships aren't perfect copies of 1E RT Zentreadi ships, they are largely similar in terms of Main Body MDC and # of guns (and said gun performance).

Every weapon on a DSF can do significant damage to the R/M ships. Those ships have MDC in the thousands so even the lightest weapon will destroy them in a few rounds, espacial since there are 5,000 of them. The only weapon R/M ships have that can do do any damage to a DSF with 20 MILLION MDC is there main guns which do damage in the millions. Take both sides primary weapons out of the game and the DSF would wipe the floor with all but the largest fleets.

Quite noted actually. If the match can turn into a multi-melee slug fest of back-and-forth the DSF has an advantage. The ship numbers I calculated are for a 15second engagement window at maximum range, something that Dominators likely are not used to dealing with anymore. So, if the DSF and the RT/M2 faction ships would close the distance, the RT/M2 damage output would actually go up after a certain point as they could then bring to bear their Light Lasers and Missile Launchers (I don't really see them deploying mecha for anti-capital ship duty), the missile launchers will have to contend with some of the defenses of a DSF, but not the light lasers.

Lastly, you did this 1 DSF against how many ships but if you read the books groups of 3 to 12 aren’t uncommon and at one point a fleet of 66 attacked Phase World. I have never gotten great numbers on Robotech and I know nothing about Macross II outside of the gaming books but do either of these settings have enough ships to deal with 66 DSF’s?

Correct this was a what it would take to handle 1x DSF. While I won't dispute the 3-12x DSF as uncommon, they are usually encountered solo is my understanding. Though I do think that after losing a few DSFs to these RT/M2 factions, the Dominators might band together in larger formations without truly understanding how out matched they could be if they only focused on the numbers.

However, 66x DSF is still manageable in terms of numbers for Robotech's Zentreadi who canonically have a force of over 5.5 MILLION ships when the square off at Earth (some of those Zentreadi ships are allied, and there are elements not at Earth) which would only require 33,000x of those ships in 1E (assuming you task 500x ships per DSF, which is more than enough as the formation I mentioned is much smaller). Other RT and Macross 2 faction fleet sizes are not clear cut AFAIK in numbers (Macross 2 numbers might exist in the OSM somewhere) and at any given time so they might have issues tackling multiple DSFs simultaneously (and some are not even able to handle 1x, for example the Invid canonically in the 1E RPG only have a 200x Scorpion Carriers but would need over 4,000x and the REF might not have the required >2,000x Ikazuchi).

[green.nova343]

we didn’t bother and by the time we broke out the Macross II books we were kind of tired of i

There really wouldn't be much need. While the M2 Zentran/Marduk ships aren't perfect copies of 1E RT Zentreadi ships, they are largely similar in terms of Main Body MDC and # of guns (and said gun performance).

Every weapon on a DSF can do significant damage to the R/M ships. Those ships have MDC in the thousands so even the lightest weapon will destroy them in a few rounds, espacial since there are 5,000 of them. The only weapon R/M ships have that can do do any damage to a DSF with 20 MILLION MDC is there main guns which do damage in the millions. Take both sides primary weapons out of the game and the DSF would wipe the floor with all but the largest fleets.

Quite noted actually. If the match can turn into a multi-melee slug fest of back-and-forth the DSF has an advantage. The ship numbers I calculated are for a 15second engagement window at maximum range, something that Dominators likely are not used to dealing with anymore. So, if the DSF and the RT/M2 faction ships would close the distance, the RT/M2 damage output would actually go up after a certain point as they could then bring to bear their Light Lasers and Missile Launchers (I don't really see them deploying mecha for anti-capital ship duty), the missile launchers will have to contend with some of the defenses of a DSF, but not the light lasers.

Lastly, you did this 1 DSF against how many ships but if you read the books groups of 3 to 12 aren’t uncommon and at one point a fleet of 66 attacked Phase World. I have never gotten great numbers on Robotech and I know nothing about Macross II outside of the gaming books but do either of these settings have enough ships to deal with 66 DSF’s?

Correct this was a what it would take to handle 1x DSF. While I won't dispute the 3-12x DSF as uncommon, they are usually encountered solo is my understanding. Though I do think that after losing a few DSFs to these RT/M2 factions, the Dominators might band together in larger formations without truly understanding how out matched they could be if they only focused on the numbers.

However, 66x DSF is still manageable in terms of numbers for Robotech's Zentreadi who canonically have a force of over 5.5 MILLION ships when the square off at Earth (some of those Zentreadi ships are allied, and there are elements not at Earth) which would only require 33,000x of those ships in 1E (assuming you task 500x ships per DSF, which is more than enough as the formation I mentioned is much smaller). Other RT and Macross 2 faction fleet sizes are not clear cut AFAIK in numbers (Macross 2 numbers might exist in the OSM somewhere) and at any given time so they might have issues tackling multiple DSFs simultaneously (and some are not even able to handle 1x, for example the Invid canonically in the 1E RPG only have a 200x Scorpion Carriers but would need over 4,000x and the REF might not have the required >2,000x Ikazuchi).

For the most part, yeah, M2 Zentran ships are roughly equivalent to the R1 Zentraedi ships, although there were some differences:

• Light Lasers are 1D6x20 for Zentraedi, 1D6x30 for Zentran.
• Retractable Laser Turrets are 1D4x100 for Zentraedi, 1D4x1,000 for Zentran
• Missiles are equal in damage. Ranges are technically the same, but Zentraedi missiles state this is their atmospheric range (+60% in space), while the Zentran missiles state it's their space range (-50% in atmosphere)

Personally, I would probably assume that both the Zentraedi & Zentrans would deploy their mecha in a capital battle. First off, at least in the initial stages of the battle, they won't know about the DSF's plasma shockwave defensive system (essentially anti-missile/anti-mecha). Second of all, though, their assumption would be somewhat along the lines of the Imperial Japanese forces when they faced some of the RN's forces in the early parts of the Pacific portion of WW2, where British battleships found out how bad it was to go into action against enemy air forces when you had a) inadequate AAA defenses, & b) little to no air cover/CAP of your own to take out the enemy air units.

But even after the plasma shockwave is first used...it only has a 300 mile/483km range, much less than the available LRM range that mecha (especially the M2's VF-2SS w/SAP mecha) could use, & it can only be used once every 5 minutes. Any survivors that manage to transmit that info to follow-up fleets will allow for timed attacks to be made on the DSF, & the Dominator will need to decide if it's worth the effort to use the plasma on one particular volley when another might be screeching in later.

[Warshield73]

we didn’t bother and by the time we broke out the Macross II books we were kind of tired of i

There really wouldn't be much need. While the M2 Zentran/Marduk ships aren't perfect copies of 1E RT Zentreadi ships, they are largely similar in terms of Main Body MDC and # of guns (and said gun performance).

Every weapon on a DSF can do significant damage to the R/M ships. Those ships have MDC in the thousands so even the lightest weapon will destroy them in a few rounds, espacial since there are 5,000 of them. The only weapon R/M ships have that can do do any damage to a DSF with 20 MILLION MDC is there main guns which do damage in the millions. Take both sides primary weapons out of the game and the DSF would wipe the floor with all but the largest fleets.

Quite noted actually. If the match can turn into a multi-melee slug fest of back-and-forth the DSF has an advantage. The ship numbers I calculated are for a 15second engagement window at maximum range, something that Dominators likely are not used to dealing with anymore. So, if the DSF and the RT/M2 faction ships would close the distance, the RT/M2 damage output would actually go up after a certain point as they could then bring to bear their Light Lasers and Missile Launchers (I don't really see them deploying mecha for anti-capital ship duty), the missile launchers will have to contend with some of the defenses of a DSF, but not the light lasers.

Lastly, you did this 1 DSF against how many ships but if you read the books groups of 3 to 12 aren’t uncommon and at one point a fleet of 66 attacked Phase World. I have never gotten great numbers on Robotech and I know nothing about Macross II outside of the gaming books but do either of these settings have enough ships to deal with 66 DSF’s?

Correct this was a what it would take to handle 1x DSF. While I won't dispute the 3-12x DSF as uncommon, they are usually encountered solo is my understanding. Though I do think that after losing a few DSFs to these RT/M2 factions, the Dominators might band together in larger formations without truly understanding how out matched they could be if they only focused on the numbers.

However, 66x DSF is still manageable in terms of numbers for Robotech's Zentreadi who canonically have a force of over 5.5 MILLION ships when the square off at Earth (some of those Zentreadi ships are allied, and there are elements not at Earth) which would only require 33,000x of those ships in 1E (assuming you task 500x ships per DSF, which is more than enough as the formation I mentioned is much smaller). Other RT and Macross 2 faction fleet sizes are not clear cut AFAIK in numbers (Macross 2 numbers might exist in the OSM somewhere) and at any given time so they might have issues tackling multiple DSFs simultaneously (and some are not even able to handle 1x, for example the Invid canonically in the 1E RPG only have a 200x Scorpion Carriers but would need over 4,000x and the REF might not have the required >2,000x Ikazuchi).

For the most part, yeah, M2 Zentran ships are roughly equivalent to the R1 Zentraedi ships, although there were some differences:

• Light Lasers are 1D6x20 for Zentraedi, 1D6x30 for Zentran.
• Retractable Laser Turrets are 1D4x100 for Zentraedi, 1D4x1,000 for Zentran
• Missiles are equal in damage. Ranges are technically the same, but Zentraedi missiles state this is their atmospheric range (+60% in space), while the Zentran missiles state it's their space range (-50% in atmosphere)

Personally, I would probably assume that both the Zentraedi & Zentrans would deploy their mecha in a capital battle. First off, at least in the initial stages of the battle, they won't know about the DSF's plasma shockwave defensive system (essentially anti-missile/anti-mecha). Second of all, though, their assumption would be somewhat along the lines of the Imperial Japanese forces when they faced some of the RN's forces in the early parts of the Pacific portion of WW2, where British battleships found out how bad it was to go into action against enemy air forces when you had a) inadequate AAA defenses, & b) little to no air cover/CAP of your own to take out the enemy air units.

But even after the plasma shockwave is first used...it only has a 300 mile/483km range, much less than the available LRM range that mecha (especially the M2's VF-2SS w/SAP mecha) could use, & it can only be used once every 5 minutes. Any survivors that manage to transmit that info to follow-up fleets will allow for timed attacks to be made on the DSF, & the Dominator will need to decide if it's worth the effort to use the plasma on one particular volley when another might be screeching in later.

Again all of this is true just a few points.

1) the damage from Mecha weapons is so limited that even in fleet sized actions the MDC is almost pointless.
2) The temporal field severely reduces the effectiveness of mechs or fighters.
3) Thanks to the armor every kinetic attack including EVERY missile attack is half damage.

This means that the plasma field would only be used when large numbers of energy weapon equipped mechs are in range as missile volleys are all but irrelevant and in the time it take a mech to cross that 300 miles to their weapon range and the tiny amount of damage it can do when on station takes most of the drama out of when to use the field.

Mow since you brought tactics into this, if just one Dominator figures out that you can cripple one of these fleets by projecting a giant image of any reasonably attractive human female and have her sing crappy pop music then Zen or Zen they are both screwed,