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Which matters more in your games: Character Level or Power Level?

In Level-based systems (e.g. DnD) you wouldn't want to play a Level 3 Doomstalker with a party of Level 7-9 characters.

In Rifts a low-level Rahu-Man Cyber-Knight would fit right in with an upper-level party of SDC-based characters in MDC power-armor.

But a Ratling thief of any level would be welcome in a game based on role-playing.

in all honesty it depends a lot on the campaign.
Rifts while it is a "level" based system the difference between a 1st level character and a 10th or higher level character is a few skill percentages (across the board) and having a few more hit points/ mdc depending on the race.

power level is typically a lot more relevant but even then most of it is going to be race/gear based.

to use a few examples: Operator, vs Techno Wizards vs military specialist vs Godling vs dragon vs a mega hero vs a cosmo knight.

which one is the most powerful character?

most people will say the cosmo knight is the most powerful and in a straight up fight they really can be.

but in the right campaign? the operator or a similar character type can be.

sure the cosmo knight is really powerful in a straight up fight. but they are 1 powerful character

now give an operator or other builder type character access to virtually unlimited resources construction facilities and TIME to build up a base and production systems and they can build and or equip an ARMY and swamp the cosmo knight and they likely won't be able to kill them fast enough to matter

guardiandashi wrote:Rifts while it is a "level" based system the difference between a 1st level character and a 10th or higher level character is a few skill percentages (across the board) and having a few more hit points/ mdc depending on the race.

Re: Skill Points.

The difference between a skill at 1st Level and 10th Level is not a "few skill percentage" points. Ignoring OCC/Race-specific skills and skills with no percentage advancement, there are*:
- x191 skills that advance at a rate of 5% per level (ie 50% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x49 skills that advance at a rate of 4% per level (ie 40% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x21 skills that advance at a rate of 3% per level (ie 30% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x2 skills that advance at a rate of 2% per level (ie 20% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x3 skills at a rate of 1% per level (technically x1 is a Martial Art Skill from Rifts Japan so might not be appropriate to count)

Sub-Skills (like Gymnastics or Doctor where you have multiple percentages as part of package deal) ignoring OCC/Race-specific skills:
-46x @5%
-8x @4%
-11x @3% (2 are Martial Arts Skills from Japan)
-3x @2%
-0x @1%
-there are also x6 that are flat skills (no advancement)

That means for the vast majority of the time, the difference in skill level is going to be fairly significant, and that is before factoring in any type of skill bonuses (cross skill bonus, IQ, skill/category bonuses based on OCC). Now some skills will max out at 98% by this point, even w/o skill bonuses.

Now W.P. skill bonuses do qualify for that a "few" points of difference between level 1 and level 10 the vast majority of the time.

*NOTE: I am consulting a database I maintain on Palladium RPGs I have access to, at one time it was also setup to allow (filled-in) character sheet creation. Hence why I can provide numbers like this. My library is not complete either. I did filter out other settings skills.

In my experience level is always important.

HTH (lets look at expert) at 1st 4 attacks, at 10th 6 attacks plus critical 18+ and paired weapons?

Magic ... sure Armor of ithan is pretty sad but it is NOT the only armor spell out there. Armour Bizarre goes from 15 MDC at 1st to 150 MDC at 10th with a HF of 14. The 75 MDC per level tattoo? At 10th that turns their armor into a Glitterboy.

Yes, levels are flatter than in DnD but yes level does make a huge difference. Keep in mind some spells/abilities directly damage hit points - an extra 10d6?

hup7 wrote:In my experience level is always important.

HTH (lets look at expert) at 1st 4 attacks, at 10th 6 attacks plus critical 18+ and paired weapons?

HTH is one of the areas where leveling matters most, but compare a 10th level Wilderness Scout to a 1st level Juicer geared toward combat, and I suspect it's a pretty even fight.
Granted, the Wilderness Scout probably has more skills that benefit from leveling, but they could probably both be part of a "balanced party" without much effort in spite.

Magic ... sure Armor of ithan is pretty sad but it is NOT the only armor spell out there. Armour Bizarre goes from 15 MDC at 1st to 150 MDC at 10th with a HF of 14. The 75 MDC per level tattoo? At 10th that turns their armor into a Glitterboy.

Yes, levels are flatter than in DnD but yes level does make a huge difference. Keep in mind some spells/abilities directly damage hit points - an extra 10d6?

With magic users, superheroes, and psychics, leveling matters a LOT, for the reasons you point out.
Even Armor of Ithan at 10th level is pretty powerful. It doesn't give your character 100 MDC; it gives your character PLUS 100 MDC, on top of whatever armor he already has, which is a big deal.
Also, taking half damage from certain sources means it nets out as more than that in some cases; if you're up against a monster who's main attack is magical fire, lightning, or cold, that +100 MDC effectively turns into +200 MDC!
So yeah, many spells and magic powers benefit greatly from leveling.

Rifts does not believe in "game balance." Many of the characters are very front loaded in terms of abilities and skills so they basically just keep getting better at what they do, instead of learning and gaining entirely new abilities (like in D&D). I like that Palladium stays away from the cult of game balance, as once they show up fun tends to be sacrificed on the altar of game balance. It is a game, and thus supposed to be fun.

As for what I prefer in my games... role playing and fun characters and interesting solutions to problems, not levels or percentage points or any other discreet measure of "power."

-STS

Agree with STS.

With very little game balance, if the story is good and fun being had, then do what makes sense for the players.

Leveling is a grind at the higher levels, often testing the player's patience. So if a player wants to play the grizzled old timer, start at the level they want but have them give a good background story to explain why. Old timer muck farmers might never see 5th level, so a 12th level mage better have good stories to tell while chugging back cans of Dr Pepper. This allows the player to craft the character they want, at the sacrifice of the true emotional investment in their character that comes with gameplay. I'm not against playing higher level characters, but I do believe it can rob players of the surprise that can come with organically grown characters, but folks will do what folks will do.

Powers, which as pointed out are often frontloaded, determine what degree of challenge the players need to overcome. A 1st level LLW should be facing more significant challenges than a 1st level muck farmer, simply because if they don't their powers are wasted and the players might get bored. They chose to be a LLW for a reason...

I've found these two concepts come into play when someone suggests using a multiclass character. I'm not opposed to multiclassing (within reason and bounds of a story) because I've found it to offer two significant gameplay advantages:
1) If the work is done on building out the backstory, multiclassing gives players access to a diversity of powers and skills that helps shape the character in many ways like they themselves are evolving as they get older. Younger players might not get this and see multiclassing as simply munchkinism, but more... experienced players know that a lot can happen in 20-30 years and people IRL go through phases and change careers or even fundamental philosophies and ways of living. Responsible multiclassing allows their characters to do the same thing as they age too, adding that little bit of realism.
2) The rules are a bit unforgiving when it comes to leveling skills as they keep levels generally low for a much longer time, particularly if multiclassing more than once, representing a "jack of all trades, master of none" gameplay experience. Often players argue that skill rolls are a distraction when their skill is >90% if playing a high level character, so if most of their skills are frozen at 30-50% from multiclassing, they can be more engaged due to the fear of the failed roll. This tension means the players have to be smart about finding buffs, for example seeking out that illegal pre-rifts text book to get a small % bump which could be an adventure in and of itself.

And just so we're clear, I'd almost never condone a backstory of a 9th level dbee mind melter becoming an initially unwilling 11th level partial cyborg that retired to become an 8th level BM merchant at the ripe old age of 387. That degree of munchkinism is on a whole other level...

ShadowLogan wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:Rifts while it is a "level" based system the difference between a 1st level character and a 10th or higher level character is a few skill percentages (across the board) and having a few more hit points/ mdc depending on the race.

Re: Skill Points.

The difference between a skill at 1st Level and 10th Level is not a "few skill percentage" points. Ignoring OCC/Race-specific skills and skills with no percentage advancement, there are*:
- x191 skills that advance at a rate of 5% per level (ie 50% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x49 skills that advance at a rate of 4% per level (ie 40% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x21 skills that advance at a rate of 3% per level (ie 30% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x2 skills that advance at a rate of 2% per level (ie 20% difference between level 1 and 10)
- x3 skills at a rate of 1% per level (technically x1 is a Martial Art Skill from Rifts Japan so might not be appropriate to count)

Sub-Skills (like Gymnastics or Doctor where you have multiple percentages as part of package deal) ignoring OCC/Race-specific skills:
-46x @5%
-8x @4%
-11x @3% (2 are Martial Arts Skills from Japan)
-3x @2%
-0x @1%
-there are also x6 that are flat skills (no advancement)

That means for the vast majority of the time, the difference in skill level is going to be fairly significant, and that is before factoring in any type of skill bonuses (cross skill bonus, IQ, skill/category bonuses based on OCC). Now some skills will max out at 98% by this point, even w/o skill bonuses.

Now W.P. skill bonuses do qualify for that a "few" points of difference between level 1 and level 10 the vast majority of the time.

*NOTE: I am consulting a database I maintain on Palladium RPGs I have access to, at one time it was also setup to allow (filled-in) character sheet creation. Hence why I can provide numbers like this. My library is not complete either. I did filter out other settings skills.

It's even more significant than that, in many cases.

The difference between 40% in a skill and 90% in a skill is not a doubling of the skill, rather you fail 1/6 as often if you have 90% as compared to 40% - not half as often (or approximately), the person with 40% is 6 times as likely to fail. If we bump both of those up by 10%, 50% compared to 98% is 25 times as likely to fail... that is, the difference gets bigger the closer you get to maxing out your skill.

This is amplified in any situation where you might need to roll multiple times... a party of 5 people with 98% prowl has over a 90% chance of sneaking almost anywhere unless there are penalties to their roll, a party of 5 people with a prowl of 50% has a 3% chance that nobody will fail.

So yeah, in terms of skills, level can make a pretty big difference.

There is also (as has been pointed out) a rather large difference with spell magic and some psionic abilities, as well as the special powers of some classes or races (or superpowers, if you play with those).

It's really only a minor difference when we're comparing tech-based combat classes, for the most part. The difference between a level 1 glitter boy and a level 10 glitter boy in a fight is not nothing, but if you put 10 level 1 glitter boys up against a pair of level 5 glitter boys, I'm betting *heavily* on the group of 10. Heck, even if it was 3 level 1s vs 2 level 5s, I think it would probably go to the group of 3, assuming the perfectly level, open plain where both sides can do nothing but walk towards each other and shoot until the other side is dead.

(that is, being clever could make a major difference in the combat, but the increased combat stats would not be enough to tip things in the favour of the pair of level 5s).

It's a lot harder to say that if you're talking about, say... mystics, there will be a rather significant difference in spell effectiveness as well as the number of spells the level 5 mystics could use that would make a big difference.