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What is the attitude / political position of the CS with regards to Glitter Boys (independent)?

Glitter Boys is a human being who pilots Glitter Boy power armor.

They have a reputation as defenders of humanity throughout the Dark Ages.
As pilots of their famous Glitter Boy armor (the weapon of the greatest heroes in North America) they were the one force that could dare challenge extra-dimenstional invaders, monsters and magic-spawned menaces.

So, if and when, a Glitter Boy armor walks into a CS town or Chi-Town Burbs how do the CS react?

Shoot them?
Arrest them?
Salute them?
Try to steal their power armor?

Pre-SoT per WB11 (pg53) "Glitter Boys are used openly soley by Free Quebec. They are paid equivalent to a Staff Sergent, although they may not be in the direct chain of command."

So officially the CS doesn't work with them. The CS isn't really interested in using or acquired in Glitter Boy technology (this is mentioned somewhere, I just forget where).

How the CS would handle free lance Glitter Boy pilots in terms of shoot/arrest/"salute" them is likely going to come down to the pilot's individual "history".

Debating playing a Glitter Boy pilot or an O.C.C. with the elite pilot skills to pilot one for story and reputation sake.

Comes into a town walking in the armor.

Cyber-knight in the party.

Maybe a Body Fixer or a Rogue Scholar to round it out

Reception?

The reception is going to be based on a variety of factors, there is no single reception they can expect.

My rule of thumb:

Pure (ish) human Glitter Boy pilots, not directly affiliated with an enemy, might be considered as mercenaries. Similarly, they might be citizens, but that will make the CS very wary, just as any independent military operator would make them.

I've always envisioned that legacy Glitterboys and the CS treat each other with a wary respect.

They don't hate each other but they definitely keep tabs on each other and report about the other's movements and activities to a higher power if they can.

If a town mayor wants the GB to oust the heavy handed CS, the GB would probably would decline, lest he gets put on a shoot on sight CS bounty list. Same goes for a CS officer. He probably will give the GB a wave by and a cursory customs style inspection checking for obvious contraband like magic and alien/DB property, but he wont presume the GB will bow to his authority when outside the CS borders.

A GB who openly is working with a Magic user, uses magic items, and allies with non humans gets no such leniency and gets an long range missile strike called in on him as soon as its safe to do so.

I think the only problem the CS has with Glitterboys is that the CS can't build the armor, and can't take credit for the design.
Otherwise there'd be CS Glitterboys everywhere.

With Classic Glitterboy pilots, as long as they're human, they're not breaking any laws, and their papers are in order, I don't see any reason the CS would give them any problems.

A lone GB pilot entering a CS controlled region would likely be considered the same as any other Robot/PA pilot "coming to town." The fact it's a GB versus an NG Robot or some other design could be dismissed as a relatively moot point.

How they react is more dependent on the pilot's choices/conduct than what vehicle they strolled in with. Not saying an enterprising CS Tech Officer/Operator might want to "sneak a peek" at it while in storage, but like all robots/PA, they have locking mechanisms to prevent unauthorized access. <shrug>

darthauthor wrote:What is the attitude / political position of the CS with regards to Glitter Boys (independent)?

Glitter Boys is a human being who pilots Glitter Boy power armor.

They have a reputation as defenders of humanity throughout the Dark Ages.
As pilots of their famous Glitter Boy armor (the weapon of the greatest heroes in North America) they were the one force that could dare challenge extra-dimenstional invaders, monsters and magic-spawned menaces.

So, if and when, a Glitter Boy armor walks into a CS town or Chi-Town Burbs how do the CS react?

Shoot them?
Arrest them?
Salute them?
Try to steal their power armor?

Glitter Boys aren't always human.
Descended Glitter Boys also don't have to be human. For instance, my last character was a third generation elven Glitter Boy. Elves probably work better for it as they're taller than humans on average. If you look at the picture, the pilot has to be 6'6" or taller.
As to rest of the topic, the CS has nothing positive to say about Glitter Boys (among other OCCs) and likely kill them on sight as a threat to national security. They had decades to include the armor in their military, as Free Quebec was once a CS stooge; the CS never adopted the armor.

The most recent Rifter had a few articles about Glitter Boys (including 2 by yours truly). In general, C.S. forces see them the same as they would just about any very powerful M.D.C. mercenary power armor or robot, with some caveats for their reputation as a "suit of heroes" and their strong association with Free Quebec. C.S. reactions to Glitter Boy suits will depend a great deal on where and when the encounter happens.

+Before war with Free Quebec, C.S. forces would likely be neutral to slightly positive towards GB pilots, especially veterans of the Free Quebec legions.
+During the war with Free Quebec, C.S. forces would likely be highly suspicious if not outright hostile to GB pilots in and near conflict areas with Free Quebec, and would be less friendly and welcoming in other areas.
+After the Siege on Tolkeen, where FQ legions turned against the C.S.'s demonic foes, C.S. forces would be significantly more positive towards GB pilots.
+In the minion war, C.S. forces are likely to welcome just about any GB pilot willing to fight with them. If you take my GB associations article as part of your setting, then the CS higher authorities will have a lot of concerns about how many GBs show up to fight the invaders, and by how well-organized and well-supported they seem to be, but this isn't something likely to play into regular interactions, at least not until the Minion War is well over.

The CS does not have Glitter boys in part Free Quebec and the NRG would not sell Glitter boys to the Coalition states. Even when Free Quebec would not manufacture and export them to other CS states. Free Quebec was only suppose to maintain their current Glitter Boys with their factories not expand and develop new variants.

TanisdeTagu wrote:The CS does not have Glitter boys in part Free Quebec and the NRG would not sell Glitter boys to the Coalition states. Even when Free Quebec would not manufacture and export them to other CS states. Free Quebec was only suppose to maintain their current Glitter Boys with their factories not expand and develop new variants.

Its more that Karl doesn't want them.
He rejected them as they didn't fit his idea of a unified force.
I recall this being explicitly stated in one of the books in fact, I would need to go digging to find it again though.
the NGR likely would sell the CS GBs if they wanted... but the CS doesn't want.

I thought the lore was kinda clear on it:
GBs were military, so during events of CE they are respected. GBs become legends as the crisis continues, literally worshipped like gods post-CE/pre-RIFTS as humanity slides into dark ages. GBs lose some of the lore once humanity re-establishes itself; people recognize they are just men in tech suits, but they are still seen as (mystic) knights. . . Like, for real, their suits have existed in full use since before CE. Each suit has a personality and can reject its pilot, even pilot themselves until they find/re-unit with a pilot. Old things in RIFTS take on a life of their own, pretty sure Kevin based it on Asia Mythology of objects gaining a soul/spirit after 100yrs. It is also why old tech (even "advanced" mdc) can be enchanted, hence why it's so valuable as salvage.

I understand that people think, and I put heavy emphasis on "think", because it's become a pretty popular (and objectively wrong) opinion that the expanded lore. . . Canada specifically, but not just that book. . . Has ruined GB lore.

No, you can have it both ways: You can have suits which have been exposed to raw nexus energies for 200+ years, as a result taking on more mythical properties, AND also have GB armors which have sat still for the same amount of time collecting dust safely in a bunker by-the-thousands.

That being said, from the CS's perspective, GB pilots probably shouldn't be trusted. You are either Canadian, a surviving remnant of the military, actual magic, or at the very least a reminder that something came before the CS. . . Which as the CS, depending on the year, any of these four would immediately qualify for shoot-on-sight.

Sohisohi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:38 pm Each suit has a personality and can reject its pilot, even pilot themselves until they find/re-unit with a pilot. Old things in RIFTS take on a life of their own, pretty sure Kevin based it on Asia Mythology of objects gaining a soul/spirit after 100yrs. It is also why old tech (even "advanced" mdc) can be enchanted, hence why it's so valuable as salvage.

I understand that people think, and I put heavy emphasis on "think", because it's become a pretty popular (and objectively wrong) opinion that the expanded lore. . . Canada specifically, but not just that book. . . Has ruined GB lore.

No, you can have it both ways: You can have suits which have been exposed to raw nexus energies for 200+ years, as a result taking on more mythical properties, AND also have GB armors which have sat still for the same amount of time collecting dust safely in a bunker by-the-thousands.

I must have missed something - can you please provide a canon reference for GBs wandering around pilotless?

I cannot, I no longer own any of the books.

My source is myself, I probably read it in the original rulebook, or I just made it up. Hard to say for sure.

Sohisohi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:50 pm I cannot, I no longer own any of the books.

My source is myself, I probably read it in the original rulebook, or I just made it up. Hard to say for sure.

Too bad - in my quick search I couldn't find any reference in the main books. Might have been in a Rifter article. Neat concept though! Similar to the demonic Angrar Mark 2 PA in Mercenaries, though that PA is a demonic entity rather than just magic infused.

If anyone else knows if this is canon, please share a reference. Thanks.

Sohisohi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:50 pm I cannot, I no longer own any of the books.

My source is myself, I probably read it in the original rulebook, or I just made it up. Hard to say for sure.

you're misremembering the technowizard glitterboys from new west, i think, they have that mention of being semi-self piloting and not working for pilots they disagree with because they're so old and infused with the spirits of their former pilots.

Orin J. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:25 am

Sohisohi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:50 pm I cannot, I no longer own any of the books.

My source is myself, I probably read it in the original rulebook, or I just made it up. Hard to say for sure.

you're misremembering the technowizard glitterboys from new west, i think, they have that mention of being semi-self piloting and not working for pilots they disagree with because they're so old and infused with the spirits of their former pilots.

Ah, the Ironmage (Black Market SB pg 187)... GB-10 suits older than 180 yrs are "potent conductors of magic energy"

In the most recent Rifter, I wrote up some suits of legend. Two of them had some autonomous features; however, all of them required a pilot.

Hancock is a GB in which an operator in the Chaos Earth era inadvertently got his soul/essence trapped in the suit. He's effectively a co-pilot who makes the suit a bit better, and he's something of a living legend in the G.B. community.

The Patriot (my personal favorite) is a bonkers pre-Rifts A.I. programmed for American propaganda, grafted onto a highly modified glitter boy that's decked out with outrageous U.S. patriotic symbols in order to control a shoulder-mounted particle beam turret. He's possibly the most famous G.B. in North America. I also wrote up an autonomous bald eagle-looking robot named U.N.C.L.E. S.A.M. as a natural companion to The Patriot. The whole thing was over the top, and I had a blast writing it up. The artist did a great job capturing the suit in that article.

Hotrod wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:14 am The Patriot (my personal favorite) is a bonkers pre-Rifts A.I. programmed for American propaganda, grafted onto a highly modified glitter boy that's decked out with outrageous U.S. patriotic symbols in order to control a shoulder-mounted particle beam turret.

I realize that Rifts books are products of their time and autonomous AI has only recently made a substantial leap from concept to real life, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been any retcon of Golden Age equipment like Glitter Boy suits or pre-Rifts SAMAS models to build in more autonomous AI functions to armor, rather than look at AI from a drone / talking horse / self-driving car perspective. One AI to monitor threats and throw up a force field, another to do all the mapping and navigation, another to monitor the pilot's health and deploy doses of IRMSS or RMK like an external Juicer bio-comp - lots of autonomous functions could be built in as extras by major tech brands.

Heck, even in infantry BA you could have several AI providing support... perhaps embedded in various pieces of gear (and that's as far as I'll go with that rogue off-topic example ).

Maybe this is covered in the Titan book - haven't got it yet. Just saying that if 70 years before the Golden Age we have self-driving cars that only sometimes burst into flames or park themselves in the middle of an intersection, then pre-Rifts Golden Age gear like Glitter Boys should be able to do some amazing stuff. Stuff the CS probably wants kept out of the Public realm. So, new models are probably okay in wilderness towns, but ancient models may very well be quarantined or confiscated for research.

I know having an AI in his Power Armor worked for Iron Man but I don't think it'd be that good mainstream. I've read of pilots turning off alarms in their fighters because they were too distracting. I would think that on the ground in the frontlines, with all the noise of war and people yelling, an AI would be more of a hinderance than a help.

Sambot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:32 pm I know having an AI in his Power Armor worked for Iron Man but I don't think it'd be that good mainstream. I've read of pilots turning off alarms in their fighters because they were too distracting. I would think that on the ground in the frontlines, with all the noise of war and people yelling, an AI would be more of a hinderance than a help.

Ugh, I hear ya, but the idea that a pilot would actually interact with any of the AIs in a GB suit is IMO lame. AIs should just do their job behind the scenes, but not be heard unless it is a function of their purpose, like a digital post action therapist. E.g., if a person walks into a room, an AI should determine who it is, determine their preferences, and adjust lighting and temperature accordingly. In a GB suit, the AI should look up the pilot's preferences for optimal performance, manage heat/humidity/air quality in the suit to meet those preferences, and when faced with more than normal external heat or due to damage to the suit's enviro systems, the AI should creatively figure out how to mitigate / bypass the problem and just do it or, if there is a conflict with other functions currently being used (say, combat functions), the AI should prioritize the enviro system fix or the next best alternative option accordingly. No need to bother the pilot in any way while the pilot is concerned with the two Brodkil laying down heavy fire. Think also about swapping from one drum of ammo to a backup secondary drum, the AI should anticipate the need based on the pilot's firing patterns and just do it so the pilot has a seamless experience. The same could be said about comms - one of the GB suit's AIs should do all the work around scrambling comms, decrypting signals, determining sources, etc., so the pilot can focus on what they are supposed to do... run and shoot. Like how a modern car has over 2000 chips all handling different functions, an ancient GB could have thousands of highly optimized AIs with hundreds of years of heuristic or ML-based runtime (or even organically, if Golden Age tech uses synthetic bio gel rather than old silicon or gallium chips). This might be scary for CS SAMAS pilots whose AIs may be far from optimized since the suit might be only a few decades old.

You could also have some low-level AI running security (i.e. "Who can pilot this suit"), managing tactical feeds, monitoring suit status, and, possibly, be used for non-combat movement (it can't fight, but it CAN get the suit over there, and lift the arm if you need to work on the shoulder servos).

Suit AI doesn't need to be a KITT; it can get away with being a xiticix drone.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:12 pm

Sambot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:32 pm I know having an AI in his Power Armor worked for Iron Man but I don't think it'd be that good mainstream. I've read of pilots turning off alarms in their fighters because they were too distracting. I would think that on the ground in the frontlines, with all the noise of war and people yelling, an AI would be more of a hinderance than a help.

Ugh, I hear ya, but the idea that a pilot would actually interact with any of the AIs in a GB suit is IMO lame. AIs should just do their job behind the scenes, but not be heard unless it is a function of their purpose, like a digital post action therapist. E.g., if a person walks into a room, an AI should determine who it is, determine their preferences, and adjust lighting and temperature accordingly. In a GB suit, the AI should look up the pilot's preferences for optimal performance, manage heat/humidity/air quality in the suit to meet those preferences, and when faced with more than normal external heat or due to damage to the suit's enviro systems, the AI should creatively figure out how to mitigate / bypass the problem and just do it or, if there is a conflict with other functions currently being used (say, combat functions), the AI should prioritize the enviro system fix or the next best alternative option accordingly. No need to bother the pilot in any way while the pilot is concerned with the two Brodkil laying down heavy fire. Think also about swapping from one drum of ammo to a backup secondary drum, the AI should anticipate the need based on the pilot's firing patterns and just do it so the pilot has a seamless experience. The same could be said about comms - one of the GB suit's AIs should do all the work around scrambling comms, decrypting signals, determining sources, etc., so the pilot can focus on what they are supposed to do... run and shoot. Like how a modern car has over 2000 chips all handling different functions, an ancient GB could have thousands of highly optimized AIs with hundreds of years of heuristic or ML-based runtime (or even organically, if Golden Age tech uses synthetic bio gel rather than old silicon or gallium chips). This might be scary for CS SAMAS pilots whose AIs may be far from optimized since the suit might be only a few decades old.

I can understand the AI telling the pilot somethings like "Enemy to the rear!" but somethings like ammo count shouldn't require an AI. I also have a hard time believing AIs in a PA or even Robot being intelligent enough to become sentient. It's like after 200 years a calculator becomes alive and plots to takeover the world.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:05 am You could also have some low-level AI running security (i.e. "Who can pilot this suit"), managing tactical feeds, monitoring suit status, and, possibly, be used for non-combat movement (it can't fight, but it CAN get the suit over there, and lift the arm if you need to work on the shoulder servos).

Suit AI doesn't need to be a KITT; it can get away with being a xiticix drone.

I can see something like that but it'd need to be bypassed by techs and replacement pilots.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:41 pm I can understand the AI telling the pilot somethings like "Enemy to the rear!" but somethings like ammo count shouldn't require an AI. I also have a hard time believing AIs in a PA or even Robot being intelligent enough to become sentient. It's like after 200 years a calculator becomes alive and plots to takeover the world.

Not sentient - but an optimized AI configuration that adds serious advantages when the pilot simply has to focus their attention during combat to moving and shooting. Let the AIs handle all the rest and present any interface in a way that does not interfere with the pilot's performance. We've come a long way in 70 years IRL, I'd say this sort of stuff will advance to the point of seeming like magic in the next 70 years which is when GB10s and SAMAS appear. Heck, the NGR is even going one step further with cyber integration with 'Borgs.

As a GB10 pilot, if I could have an AI manage my GB10 ammo switch overs or make me a sandwich when I'm hungry without me having to ask for one, it would be one step closer to allowing me to do the one thing I'm supposed to do - kill those two Brodkil. Every mental task that diverts attention away from dispatching the enemy contributes to lower performance.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:05 am You could also have some low-level AI running security (i.e. "Who can pilot this suit"), managing tactical feeds, monitoring suit status, and, possibly, be used for non-combat movement (it can't fight, but it CAN get the suit over there, and lift the arm if you need to work on the shoulder servos).

Suit AI doesn't need to be a KITT; it can get away with being a xiticix drone.

Exactly. Break everything a person has to do in a suit and ask "can this be automated?" Why use a forklift to move a suit when you can tell it to move itself to the other side of the warehouse.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:41 pm I can see something like that but it'd need to be bypassed by techs and replacement pilots.

Why bypassed? Like security and access management today, just bake it in to the tech design. If the security AI thinks it's being stolen or the safety of the pilot or suit is threatened, it may challenge a request. But, where it is basic maintenance or operation in the normal course, why can't the AIs be smart enough to figure out who is a tech and who is not, who is an authorized replacement pilot and who is not, granting access and permissions accordingly? A swipe of a key card, a pass from an implanted chip over a sensor, a retinal scan, a verbal command sequence, whatever to authenticate identity. Not hard. Once ID confirmed, the AIs do what is asked of them. Remember GB10 tech is today's already substantial tech + 70 years of scientific research and military investment. 70 years is a LONG time in tech dev ... Star Trek communicator idea + 60 years = iPhone 15

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:05 am You could also have some low-level AI running security (i.e. "Who can pilot this suit"), managing tactical feeds, monitoring suit status, and, possibly, be used for non-combat movement (it can't fight, but it CAN get the suit over there, and lift the arm if you need to work on the shoulder servos).

Suit AI doesn't need to be a KITT; it can get away with being a xiticix drone.

The way I wrote it up, Hancock could start up the suit faster and could tweak the factory settings to tease out higher performance, advise on repairs and maintenance, pull guard/lookout duty, et cetera. He's sort of like Grig in the Last Starfighter or Goose in Top Gun.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:11 pm

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:41 pm I can understand the AI telling the pilot somethings like "Enemy to the rear!" but somethings like ammo count shouldn't require an AI. I also have a hard time believing AIs in a PA or even Robot being intelligent enough to become sentient. It's like after 200 years a calculator becomes alive and plots to takeover the world.

Not sentient - but an optimized AI configuration that adds serious advantages when the pilot simply has to focus their attention during combat to moving and shooting. Let the AIs handle all the rest and present any interface in a way that does not interfere with the pilot's performance. We've come a long way in 70 years IRL, I'd say this sort of stuff will advance to the point of seeming like magic in the next 70 years which is when GB10s and SAMAS appear. Heck, the NGR is even going one step further with cyber integration with 'Borgs.

As a GB10 pilot, if I could have an AI manage my GB10 ammo switch overs or make me a sandwich when I'm hungry without me having to ask for one, it would be one step closer to allowing me to do the one thing I'm supposed to do - kill those two Brodkil. Every mental task that diverts attention away from dispatching the enemy contributes to lower performance.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:05 am You could also have some low-level AI running security (i.e. "Who can pilot this suit"), managing tactical feeds, monitoring suit status, and, possibly, be used for non-combat movement (it can't fight, but it CAN get the suit over there, and lift the arm if you need to work on the shoulder servos).

Suit AI doesn't need to be a KITT; it can get away with being a xiticix drone.

Exactly. Break everything a person has to do in a suit and ask "can this be automated?" Why use a forklift to move a suit when you can tell it to move itself to the other side of the warehouse.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:41 pm I can see something like that but it'd need to be bypassed by techs and replacement pilots.

Why bypassed? Like security and access management today, just bake it in to the tech design. If the security AI thinks it's being stolen or the safety of the pilot or suit is threatened, it may challenge a request. But, where it is basic maintenance or operation in the normal course, why can't the AIs be smart enough to figure out who is a tech and who is not, who is an authorized replacement pilot and who is not, granting access and permissions accordingly? A swipe of a key card, a pass from an implanted chip over a sensor, a retinal scan, a verbal command sequence, whatever to authenticate identity. Not hard. Once ID confirmed, the AIs do what is asked of them. Remember GB10 tech is today's already substantial tech + 70 years of scientific research and military investment. 70 years is a LONG time in tech dev ... Star Trek communicator idea + 60 years = iPhone 15

What happens if some the pilot or a tech has a cold the AI doesn't recognize their voice? If they have surgery so their face, eyes, or hands are different? How about just gain or loose some weight? They show up in civies instead of uniform? What happens if the CO puts in safety procedures to protect against mind control and the techs haven't had time to inform the AI? What happens when a new tech or pilot is assigned to it and the old one isn't able to give them the right codes? What happens if the AI suffers some damage to a couple chips? Does it active the self destruct system thinking it's been captured? What happens if someone wanted to steal it and did something gruesome to the pilot or tech? Would the AI decide, well that's my pilot's _____ in his hands so he must be okay and let them pilot it? What happens if the AI decides it's a pacifist and won't let the pilot fight? Or they get into an argument about the suit going to Silicon Heaven when it dies? Which freeway exit to use? The AI doesn't like the paint job or wants to listen to rock instead of country? Either the AI ends up like Jarvis or Friday or like HAL or worse. I don't think most pilots would appreciate any of it.

Sambot wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:26 pm What happens if some the pilot or a tech has a cold the AI doesn't recognize their voice? If they have surgery so their face, eyes, or hands are different? How about just gain or loose some weight? They show up in civies instead of uniform? What happens if the CO puts in safety procedures to protect against mind control and the techs haven't had time to inform the AI? What happens when a new tech or pilot is assigned to it and the old one isn't able to give them the right codes? What happens if the AI suffers some damage to a couple chips? Does it active the self destruct system thinking it's been captured? What happens if someone wanted to steal it and did something gruesome to the pilot or tech? Would the AI decide, well that's my pilot's _____ in his hands so he must be okay and let them pilot it? What happens if the AI decides it's a pacifist and won't let the pilot fight? Or they get into an argument about the suit going to Silicon Heaven when it dies? Which freeway exit to use? The AI doesn't like the paint job or wants to listen to rock instead of country? Either the AI ends up like Jarvis or Friday or like HAL or worse. I don't think most pilots would appreciate any of it.

Very simple answer to all your concerns... sometime in the next 70 years, a very smart computing engineer or data scientist, who is smarter than you and me combined, wakes up one morning, has a coffee, stubs their toe on the edge of their breakfast nook and suddenly realizes the answer of how to make a highly efficient gestalt AI-enabled automaton that powerfully enhances a combat soldier through hyper dynamic logic-driven automation with zero self-consciousness but an amazing sense of direction and traffic pattern forecasting. What that answer is, as I said, I ain't smart enough to figure it out.

One thing I am pretty confident about is that if in 70 years we have a Golden Age of hovercraft, advanced bionics, sentient computers, tailored genetic engineering, colonization of the moon and mars, and micro nuclear power sources, someone will read a bit of Asimov and be inspired to design gestalt AI that does what it is designed to do without trying to take over the world or picking daisies like a hippie.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:02 pm

Sambot wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:26 pm What happens if some the pilot or a tech has a cold the AI doesn't recognize their voice? If they have surgery so their face, eyes, or hands are different? How about just gain or loose some weight? They show up in civies instead of uniform? What happens if the CO puts in safety procedures to protect against mind control and the techs haven't had time to inform the AI? What happens when a new tech or pilot is assigned to it and the old one isn't able to give them the right codes? What happens if the AI suffers some damage to a couple chips? Does it active the self destruct system thinking it's been captured? What happens if someone wanted to steal it and did something gruesome to the pilot or tech? Would the AI decide, well that's my pilot's _____ in his hands so he must be okay and let them pilot it? What happens if the AI decides it's a pacifist and won't let the pilot fight? Or they get into an argument about the suit going to Silicon Heaven when it dies? Which freeway exit to use? The AI doesn't like the paint job or wants to listen to rock instead of country? Either the AI ends up like Jarvis or Friday or like HAL or worse. I don't think most pilots would appreciate any of it.

Very simple answer to all your concerns... sometime in the next 70 years, a very smart computing engineer or data scientist, who is smarter than you and me combined, wakes up one morning, has a coffee, stubs their toe on the edge of their breakfast nook and suddenly realizes the answer of how to make a highly efficient gestalt AI-enabled automaton that powerfully enhances a combat soldier through hyper dynamic logic-driven automation with zero self-consciousness but an amazing sense of direction and traffic pattern forecasting. What that answer is, as I said, I ain't smart enough to figure it out.

One thing I am pretty confident about is that if in 70 years we have a Golden Age of hovercraft, advanced bionics, sentient computers, tailored genetic engineering, colonization of the moon and mars, and micro nuclear power sources, someone will read a bit of Asimov and be inspired to design gestalt AI that does what it is designed to do without trying to take over the world or picking daisies like a hippie.

Isn't a gestalt AI the enemy in Splicers?

Sambot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:02 am Isn't a gestalt AI the enemy in Splicers?

I could never get into that game much, but as far as I know that was a singular intelligence (NEXUS) designed around a neural network that was integrated into different systems and, due to overload. suffered a breakdown (Splicer core book pg 7-8). Not the same as a series of utility AIs, each regulating specific functions but in a coordinated fashion, with no self-consciousness or self-awareness.

Two very different technology concepts... the difference between a) Star Trek's Data vs b) a smart fridge that checks expiry dates to digitally update the next grocery delivery while the smart stove reviews the shopping list to propose healthy meals to be prepared over the coming week.

I haven't gotten to far into Splicers either. I just remember the AI developed multiple personalities who are trying to kill all the Humans.

B) is akin to telling the pilot how much fuel and ammo they have left. That doesn't really need an AI. It doesn't need a computer at all really. But wasn't the premise that the AI existed so long it became alive like Data? Would you want to get into an argument with your refrigerator or stove about what you want to eat or drink? Or have them arguing with each other about your diet and how best to prepare your meals? Or order food you absolutely hate because it's good for you, or worse? I wouldn't. I just want my appliances to work. Not argue with me or make decisions for me.

Sambot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:53 pm B) is akin to telling the pilot how much fuel and ammo they have left. That doesn't really need an AI. It doesn't need a computer at all really.

Agreed, if that is all that is expected of an AI. I have higher expectations of AI - I expect it to get rid of the drudgery, the administrative, and plain repetitive tasks that distract from the primary objective. The whole point of being an elite RPA pilot like a Glitterboy Pilot is to basically become one with your suit so it is an extension of you and allows you to maximize your performance.

In game terms, if I don't have to use an action to read a gauge and flip a toggle just to switch and reload from a main ammo can to a backup because an AI does it for me without being asked, that's one more action I can use to shoot at Brodkil or dodge a mini-missile. If one is playing without counting actions to draw weapons, reload, shout at team mates, etc., then I can see where the use of AI might not make much of a difference since that stuff may be baked into the melee's background. However, the games I'm in where you have to account for what you do in the 15 second melee round as best you can, that shaving off of an action could mean the difference of life or death in a fire fight. Since this comes down to gameplay, to each their own.

Sambot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:53 pm But wasn't the premise that the AI existed so long it became alive like Data?

That wasn't my premise at all, as you may referring to Sohisohi's comments... in response to Hotrod's take on an AI-enabled suit, my premise was that through hundreds of years, the various autonomous AIs (where autonomous ≠ sentient) would be optimized to a higher performance level than that of CS suits of PA offering advantageous benefits. Hence why the CS would be wary and/or interested in ancient suits. Also, that these types of AIs would be an interesting upgrade option if incorporated more often into PA design by Rifts weapons platform designers, rather than just changing some stats by relying on heavier armor, more weapons, etc.

Killer Cyborg wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:27 am I think the only problem the CS has with Glitterboys is that the CS can't build the armor, and can't take credit for the design.
Otherwise there'd be CS Glitterboys everywhere.

With Classic Glitterboy pilots, as long as they're human, they're not breaking any laws, and their papers are in order, I don't see any reason the CS would give them any problems.

I always played that there couldn't be any paperwork for the GB to have in order because the CS didn't want any GBs in their area.

desrocfc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:19 am A lone GB pilot entering a CS controlled region would likely be considered the same as any other Robot/PA pilot "coming to town." The fact it's a GB versus an NG Robot or some other design could be dismissed as a relatively moot point.

How they react is more dependent on the pilot's choices/conduct than what vehicle they strolled in with. Not saying an enterprising CS Tech Officer/Operator might want to "sneak a peek" at it while in storage, but like all robots/PA, they have locking mechanisms to prevent unauthorized access. <shrug>

I had always played pre FQ book that GBs were a symbol of NEMA and as such would be hunted down by the CS just as they would someone wearing a NEMA uniform or carrying one of their CS weapons that happens to be white or chrome or whatever color the NEMA weapons are. Basically if someone has a GB they may know the truth of where the CS got their weapons and if they know that they are a national security threat at the very minimum a threat to the CS propaganda machine. Better to destroy them and claim they're a subversive or other enemy of the state.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:39 pm

Sambot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:53 pm B) is akin to telling the pilot how much fuel and ammo they have left. That doesn't really need an AI. It doesn't need a computer at all really.

Agreed, if that is all that is expected of an AI. I have higher expectations of AI - I expect it to get rid of the drudgery, the administrative, and plain repetitive tasks that distract from the primary objective. The whole point of being an elite RPA pilot like a Glitterboy Pilot is to basically become one with your suit so it is an extension of you and allows you to maximize your performance.

You don't need an AI to become one with your machine. And you'd still have to run diagnostics on the AI. Otherwise, how would you know it isn't mistaken or lying to you? If you rely solely on it, it could be telling you the wrong thing and you'd never know.

In game terms, if I don't have to use an action to read a gauge and flip a toggle just to switch and reload from a main ammo can to a backup because an AI does it for me without being asked, that's one more action I can use to shoot at Brodkil or dodge a mini-missile. If one is playing without counting actions to draw weapons, reload, shout at team mates, etc., then I can see where the use of AI might not make much of a difference since that stuff may be baked into the melee's background. However, the games I'm in where you have to account for what you do in the 15 second melee round as best you can, that shaving off of an action could mean the difference of life or death in a fire fight. Since this comes down to gameplay, to each their own.

I would think that would depend on whether or not the weapon was integrated into the PA and maybe how intelligent the AI is. But even then, having an AI start telling you to reload would be distracting. If I were the GM, I'd have the player roll a check to see if they get distracted or not, as the distraction could mean life or death.

Sambot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:53 pm But wasn't the premise that the AI existed so long it became alive like Data?

That wasn't my premise at all, as you may referring to Sohisohi's comments... in response to Hotrod's take on an AI-enabled suit, my premise was that through hundreds of years, the various autonomous AIs (where autonomous ≠ sentient) would be optimized to a higher performance level than that of CS suits of PA offering advantageous benefits. Hence why the CS would be wary and/or interested in ancient suits. Also, that these types of AIs would be an interesting upgrade option if incorporated more often into PA design by Rifts weapons platform designers, rather than just changing some stats by relying on heavier armor, more weapons, etc.

Could be. I can see suits being optimized but that's by years of tinkering, not the AI becoming sentient. A new pilot is going to change all the settings to what's comfortable for them. That should effect the AI becoming sentient. I think it's just as likely though that ancient GBs have glitches because they're so old and having to be put back together with recycled parts. Also, what's to keep the AI from wanting to do it's own thing?

If AIs were becoming alive, I would expect the CS to destroy everything and ask questions later. They certainly wouldn't have joined, briefly with the FQ. They're consorting with demons!

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:23 am

desrocfc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:19 am A lone GB pilot entering a CS controlled region would likely be considered the same as any other Robot/PA pilot "coming to town." The fact it's a GB versus an NG Robot or some other design could be dismissed as a relatively moot point.

How they react is more dependent on the pilot's choices/conduct than what vehicle they strolled in with. Not saying an enterprising CS Tech Officer/Operator might want to "sneak a peek" at it while in storage, but like all robots/PA, they have locking mechanisms to prevent unauthorized access. <shrug>

I had always played pre FQ book that GBs were a symbol of NEMA and as such would be hunted down by the CS just as they would someone wearing a NEMA uniform or carrying one of their CS weapons that happens to be white or chrome or whatever color the NEMA weapons are. Basically if someone has a GB they may know the truth of where the CS got their weapons and if they know that they are a national security threat at the very minimum a threat to the CS propaganda machine. Better to destroy them and claim they're a subversive or other enemy of the state.

I agree with desrocfc. How the CS reacts is going to depend on the actions of the pilot. That FQ is producing GBs is known. There's nothing to say that they're produced by the Black Market or that anyone even knows about NEMA now. So why would the CS have more concerns about GBs over other PA? SAMAS PA, I could understand. The CS were the first to make them since NEMA but GBs have been produced for hundreds of years. There's no need to keep their origins secret. Plus, how would the CS know how old they GBs are unless they try to match parts numbers? Since they'd have to rely on FQ for answers, I can't see them doing that, especially since they may not get an answer. And after a few hundred years, how many of the parts would be original anyway? As long as the pilots obey they laws, I can't see the CS bothering with the GB's age.

Sambot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:09 pmI agree with desrocfc. How the CS reacts is going to depend on the actions of the pilot. That FQ is producing GBs is known. There's nothing to say that they're produced by the Black Market or that anyone even knows about NEMA now. So why would the CS have more concerns about GBs over other PA? SAMAS PA, I could understand. The CS were the first to make them since NEMA but GBs have been produced for hundreds of years. There's no need to keep their origins secret. Plus, how would the CS know how old they GBs are unless they try to match parts numbers? Since they'd have to rely on FQ for answers, I can't see them doing that, especially since they may not get an answer. And after a few hundred years, how many of the parts would be original anyway? As long as the pilots obey they laws, I can't see the CS bothering with the GB's age.

I don't know how to emphasize this anymore... oh wait, I had always played Pre FQWB the CS learned they were from NEMA when they found their NEMA source. They didn't know about the FQ's GB. They also knew they had to be getting fixed somewhere special as they weren't capable of repairing chromium. So they knew pre FQ that they were NEMA and anyone who has the ability to maintain theirs with Chromium instead of patching it up could have access to a NEMA bunker and if they have access to a NEMA bunker they could have access to NEMA data and if they have access to NEMA data then they could know that the SAMAS, Skelebots, all pre CWC weapons and even their APCs are NEMA designs repainted, reskinned or rethemed. The GBs weren't being produced for hundreds of years they were supposed to be rare armors that were handed down with Legends born around them. I don't even think the FQWB changed that. I doubt the FQ sell theirs since they were trying to keep theirs a secret even from the CS so the way the CS finds out how old they are is by trying to find out if it is FQ or not and if your playing post CWC and FQ then FQ probably have transponders in theirs that will answer CS IFF interrogations and tell them that it is a FQ unit. If it doesn't come back with that then they know it is a legacy Boomer and a legacy Boom = could have access to a NEMA bunker and if they have access to a NEMA bunker they could have access to NEMA data and if they have access to NEMA data then they could know that the SAMAS, Skelebots, all pre CWC weapons and even their APCs are NEMA designs repainted, reskinned or rethemed which = possible threat. The FQ would have the transponders in their armor because they knew how the CS treats legacy GBs. Couple hundred years so? The MDC hiways still exist except where they'd been damaged by MDC weapons. MDC armor would exist unless acted upon by and MD source. Make an MDC pair of scissors and they never rust they never go dull, unless acted on by or used on MD. MD creatures decay slower than SDC creatures because the bugs and other organics that assist in that process can't act upon the MD flesh. If there was an MD capable variant of the bacteria and bugs that break us down then we'd all be dead and only MD beings would exist.

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:08 pm

Sambot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:09 pmI agree with desrocfc. How the CS reacts is going to depend on the actions of the pilot. That FQ is producing GBs is known. There's nothing to say that they're produced by the Black Market or that anyone even knows about NEMA now. So why would the CS have more concerns about GBs over other PA? SAMAS PA, I could understand. The CS were the first to make them since NEMA but GBs have been produced for hundreds of years. There's no need to keep their origins secret. Plus, how would the CS know how old they GBs are unless they try to match parts numbers? Since they'd have to rely on FQ for answers, I can't see them doing that, especially since they may not get an answer. And after a few hundred years, how many of the parts would be original anyway? As long as the pilots obey they laws, I can't see the CS bothering with the GB's age.

I don't know how to emphasize this anymore... oh wait, I had always played Pre FQWB the CS learned they were from NEMA when they found their NEMA source. They didn't know about the FQ's GB. They also knew they had to be getting fixed somewhere special as they weren't capable of repairing chromium. So they knew pre FQ that they were NEMA and anyone who has the ability to maintain theirs with Chromium instead of patching it up could have access to a NEMA bunker and if they have access to a NEMA bunker they could have access to NEMA data and if they have access to NEMA data then they could know that the SAMAS, Skelebots, all pre CWC weapons and even their APCs are NEMA designs repainted, reskinned or rethemed. The GBs weren't being produced for hundreds of years they were supposed to be rare armors that were handed down with Legends born around them. I don't even think the FQWB changed that. I doubt the FQ sell theirs since they were trying to keep theirs a secret even from the CS so the way the CS finds out how old they are is by trying to find out if it is FQ or not and if your playing post CWC and FQ then FQ probably have transponders in theirs that will answer CS IFF interrogations and tell them that it is a FQ unit. If it doesn't come back with that then they know it is a legacy Boomer and a legacy Boom = could have access to a NEMA bunker and if they have access to a NEMA bunker they could have access to NEMA data and if they have access to NEMA data then they could know that the SAMAS, Skelebots, all pre CWC weapons and even their APCs are NEMA designs repainted, reskinned or rethemed which = possible threat. The FQ would have the transponders in their armor because they knew how the CS treats legacy GBs. Couple hundred years so? The MDC hiways still exist except where they'd been damaged by MDC weapons. MDC armor would exist unless acted upon by and MD source. Make an MDC pair of scissors and they never rust they never go dull, unless acted on by or used on MD. MD creatures decay slower than SDC creatures because the bugs and other organics that assist in that process can't act upon the MD flesh. If there was an MD capable variant of the bacteria and bugs that break us down then we'd all be dead and only MD beings would exist.

Yes, I know you said that's how you played. I don't see how it'd work and it'd be a deal breaker for me. If the CS didn't know FQ were manufacturing GBs, but did know that someone had NEMA technology and wanted to keep things secret, transponders wouldn't help FQ. The CS would just kill every GB they saw. They wouldn't stop to ask how old it is or who made it.

Also parts do wear out and ammo gets expended. Replacements would be needed. Sure some could be found in a bunker but eventually the supplies would run out. Replacements would need to come from someplace. That someplace would either be salvage, another bunker, or FQ.

The Titan books(raw and final are a little different on it as I remember) have a bit of the AI/copilot thing as well. Not specific to GBs, but similar tech. Several of the Triax GBs have computer controlled guns. Not exactly self walking, but not far off.

An automated overwatch mode while the pilot naps, or whatever should be available if nothing that actually gives an advantage in a fight.

Totally out of my head, but I've used dogbrains as being fairly common in the CE setting. A SAMAS with Blackboxes that run the jamming while the pilot flies, Chromium Guardsman armor that answers to voice commands and watches the radar for te pilot. Things like that.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:58 pm

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:08 pm

Sambot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:09 pmI agree with desrocfc. How the CS reacts is going to depend on the actions of the pilot. That FQ is producing GBs is known. There's nothing to say that they're produced by the Black Market or that anyone even knows about NEMA now. So why would the CS have more concerns about GBs over other PA? SAMAS PA, I could understand. The CS were the first to make them since NEMA but GBs have been produced for hundreds of years. There's no need to keep their origins secret. Plus, how would the CS know how old they GBs are unless they try to match parts numbers? Since they'd have to rely on FQ for answers, I can't see them doing that, especially since they may not get an answer. And after a few hundred years, how many of the parts would be original anyway? As long as the pilots obey they laws, I can't see the CS bothering with the GB's age.

I don't know how to emphasize this anymore... oh wait, I had always played Pre FQWB the CS learned they were from NEMA when they found their NEMA source. They didn't know about the FQ's GB. They also knew they had to be getting fixed somewhere special as they weren't capable of repairing chromium. So they knew pre FQ that they were NEMA and anyone who has the ability to maintain theirs with Chromium instead of patching it up could have access to a NEMA bunker and if they have access to a NEMA bunker they could have access to NEMA data and if they have access to NEMA data then they could know that the SAMAS, Skelebots, all pre CWC weapons and even their APCs are NEMA designs repainted, reskinned or rethemed. The GBs weren't being produced for hundreds of years they were supposed to be rare armors that were handed down with Legends born around them. I don't even think the FQWB changed that. I doubt the FQ sell theirs since they were trying to keep theirs a secret even from the CS so the way the CS finds out how old they are is by trying to find out if it is FQ or not and if your playing post CWC and FQ then FQ probably have transponders in theirs that will answer CS IFF interrogations and tell them that it is a FQ unit. If it doesn't come back with that then they know it is a legacy Boomer and a legacy Boom = could have access to a NEMA bunker and if they have access to a NEMA bunker they could have access to NEMA data and if they have access to NEMA data then they could know that the SAMAS, Skelebots, all pre CWC weapons and even their APCs are NEMA designs repainted, reskinned or rethemed which = possible threat. The FQ would have the transponders in their armor because they knew how the CS treats legacy GBs. Couple hundred years so? The MDC hiways still exist except where they'd been damaged by MDC weapons. MDC armor would exist unless acted upon by and MD source. Make an MDC pair of scissors and they never rust they never go dull, unless acted on by or used on MD. MD creatures decay slower than SDC creatures because the bugs and other organics that assist in that process can't act upon the MD flesh. If there was an MD capable variant of the bacteria and bugs that break us down then we'd all be dead and only MD beings would exist.

Yes, I know you said that's how you played. I don't see how it'd work and it'd be a deal breaker for me. If the CS didn't know FQ were manufacturing GBs, but did know that someone had NEMA technology and wanted to keep things secret, transponders wouldn't help FQ. The CS would just kill every GB they saw. They wouldn't stop to ask how old it is or who made it.

If we're talking pre FQ's GB Legion reveal, sure the CS equated all GBs as enemies of the state and they'd try to annihilate all of them. But I was talking after the reveal and after the CS vs. FQ "war" when they became allies again. The FQ would likely install transponders. The point of a transponder is that the CS wouldn't have to stop and ask. The IFF system automatically interrogates the transponder, usually encoded so the transponders will only respond when it receives the proper interrogation code. Then the CS radar and visual systems would identify FQ GB as friendly and other GB as unknown which is then translated by the human as an automatic kill order... I guess since the radar is somehow able to identify target shape it would skip the person having to make a judgement call and just identify all non-friendly GB as enemies.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:58 pm Also parts do wear out and ammo gets expended. Replacements would be needed. Sure some could be found in a bunker but eventually the supplies would run out. Replacements would need to come from someplace. That someplace would either be salvage, another bunker, or FQ.

Uh... yeah... how does any of that counter anything I said? The only thing is in a CS hates GBs except from FQ world the FQ isn't going to sell any of their GB gear to characters. That's like the CS selling Death's Head Transports to Merc groups. The point is there are three ways to make new chromium in canon IIRC: FQ, Republicans and NEMA factories. It doesn't say that the flechettes in a GB's BG's Shell are chromium so they could probably be reverse engineered and manufactured elsewhere but in a CS+FQ hates everyone else having GBs they'd probably treat manufacture and or sale (and possibly even possession) of the iconic munition as confession of high treason and grounds for immediate field execution.

Also All equipment from PA to giant robots, from tanks to planes, probably have transponders and depending on the paranoia of the owning group would determine how often the codes are cycle within the system and how often they're updated. If they cycle often capturing a code during battle would be a short lived problem. If they're updated frequently, as in new series of codes put into the system, then having a unit stolen is only a financial issue and not a national security issue. A character stealing a suit won't be able to come back and act like they're part of the group. a transponder isn't a radar it is a radio system so as long as whatever is being interrogated is able to carry the transponder equipment then IFF would work. So maybe in the future the transponder system is the size of a smart card. Cool then all your soldiers could use IFF. Now it is a couple computers and a radio transmitter and receiver with enough power to transmit over 100 miles but the radar often used only has a 60 mile range so the system knows what is coming on before the radar detects it.

Zer0 Kay" wrote:. The point is there are three ways to make new chromium in canon IIRC: FQ, Republicans and NEMA factories. It doesn't say that the flechettes in a GB's BG's Shell are chromium so they could probably be reverse engineered and manufactured elsewhere but in a CS+FQ hates everyone else having GBs they'd probably treat manufacture and or sale (and possibly even possession) of the iconic munition as confession of high treason and grounds for immediate field execution.

In NA it would likely be FQ and Archie-3 (which represents NEMA, and is essentially the Republican's supplier), but lets not forget that there are several other places that produce GB on/near Earth like Japan, Triax (acquired from FQ), the New Navy (possibly, they have a supply of GBs, which after 300years likely requires they production capacity), Silver Republics in SA (IIRC they produce a GB variant), and of course the Orbitals (Freedom Station specifically).

I can't seem to find it, but I thought there was a reference to GB ammunition production being easy enough that someone (IIRC it was an Operator OCC specifically) could do it in a backwoods garage/shop. Which makes sense as there is nothing overly special about the ammunition in text as you said, and there are other examples of railgun flechette users (Naruni Hovertank in Mercenaries, Arkhons in SA2, Archie-3 proxies) and its not like Palladium goes out of their way to establish sizes for a given railgun/weapon (atleast in the past) to prevent the C-40R and the NG-202 from using a common projectile, or the flechette examples from "sharing".

I disagree if ARCHIE was able to produce chromium he'd have a chromium unit. There is no logic of "lets give away this rare expensive material to randos and make all of my personal stuff... suck. "So in NA it is FQ, Unfound NEMA factories/storehouses and the Republicans. And FQ isn't going to give it away nor should ARCHIE. Japan is difficult to get to and from, Triax like the FQ likely wouldn't give it out as they need it and prior to the FQ revealing they had GBs Triax didn't have any. If the New Navy has them they'd use them and if they can produce Chromium they'd have other Chromium units. SA almost as difficult to travel to as Japan and the Orbitals are even harder to get to.

Hmm I wouldn't allow a backwoods garage shop to manufacture them but any decent weapon smith should be able to reverse engineer one. There are other railguns but PB did go out of their way to establish ONE size for a given railgun in the past and present. Only the BG has its ammunition detailed and it is much larger than the standard railgun rounds so while all other "railguns" (more likely coilguns) can use the same ammo the Boom Gun and IIRC it states the Shemarian Staff guns use the same ammo, are probably the only two that use that specific flechette cartridge. As they're probably the only two actual railguns in the world.

Zer0 Kay, you do know the Republican's manufacturing base IS Archie-3 (established way back with SB1r), they essentially "hijack" his factories while he is in "sleep mode" using access codes available to them. Without Archie-3, the Republicans cannot reproduce any of their Golden Age equipment which includes Chromium units. So yes, Archie-3 does have Chromium technology. Why he doesn't use it isn't clear or stated (IIRC) so anything I offer would be speculation, but he is also credited with being the source of the random found "caches" of Glitterboys IIRC.

Re: "backwoods garage". I'm not saying I disagree per say that the individual(s) doing this shouldn't have certain skills (and equipment), but in terms of tech level the GB shells are easy to reproduce is what I'm getting at. Ignoring size & propellant mechanisms for a moment, we're essentially left with the GB round being a glorified shotgun shell that fires flechettes (and the U.S used shotgun fletchettes in Vietnam). Nothing says the GB shell/round (or sub munition) require special materials (obviously the shell/round has to be ferrous), which lowers the tech level to produce the things. Nor am I saying that someone working alone in a garage/workshop is going to match production with a factory either, it might take that lone individual (assuming equipment, skills, and raw materials) a few days to reproduce one ready to use GB shell but the factory could be putting out 60 shells an hour (for all we know) per line.

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:06 pm If we're talking pre FQ's GB Legion reveal, sure the CS equated all GBs as enemies of the state and they'd try to annihilate all of them. But I was talking after the reveal and after the CS vs. FQ "war" when they became allies again. The FQ would likely install transponders. The point of a transponder is that the CS wouldn't have to stop and ask. The IFF system automatically interrogates the transponder, usually encoded so the transponders will only respond when it receives the proper interrogation code. Then the CS radar and visual systems would identify FQ GB as friendly and other GB as unknown which is then translated by the human as an automatic kill order... I guess since the radar is somehow able to identify target shape it would skip the person having to make a judgement call and just identify all non-friendly GB as enemies.

I don't recall the CS killing every GB they saw. Is that one of your things? I really don't see how it'd work either. FQ was making GBs. They're not going to want to ally with a group that destroys their main defenders on sight. That would put them on a war footing from their first contact as they were using GBs their founding. And the big reveal wasn't that FQ had GBs. It was that they had so many. Putting transponders only works as long as friends have the codes, and those codes aren't stolen or captured.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:58 pm Also parts do wear out and ammo gets expended. Replacements would be needed. Sure some could be found in a bunker but eventually the supplies would run out. Replacements would need to come from someplace. That someplace would either be salvage, another bunker, or FQ.

Uh... yeah... how does any of that counter anything I said? The only thing is in a CS hates GBs except from FQ world the FQ isn't going to sell any of their GB gear to characters. That's like the CS selling Death's Head Transports to Merc groups. The point is there are three ways to make new chromium in canon IIRC: FQ, Republicans and NEMA factories. It doesn't say that the flechettes in a GB's BG's Shell are chromium so they could probably be reverse engineered and manufactured elsewhere but in a CS+FQ hates everyone else having GBs they'd probably treat manufacture and or sale (and possibly even possession) of the iconic munition as confession of high treason and grounds for immediate field execution.

In a world where the CS hates GBs and kills them on sight, the CS would never have joined with FQ. Again, FQ was using GBs from their very founding. It was CS wanting, in part, FQ to give up their GBs that drove them away. FQ wouldn't join a group who was killing their main defenders on site. And it was FQ's GBs hat gave rise to the GB legend. And why would anyone give their enemy their transponder codes?

Also All equipment from PA to giant robots, from tanks to planes, probably have transponders and depending on the paranoia of the owning group would determine how often the codes are cycle within the system and how often they're updated. If they cycle often capturing a code during battle would be a short lived problem. If they're updated frequently, as in new series of codes put into the system, then having a unit stolen is only a financial issue and not a national security issue. A character stealing a suit won't be able to come back and act like they're part of the group. a transponder isn't a radar it is a radio system so as long as whatever is being interrogated is able to carry the transponder equipment then IFF would work. So maybe in the future the transponder system is the size of a smart card. Cool then all your soldiers could use IFF. Now it is a couple computers and a radio transmitter and receiver with enough power to transmit over 100 miles but the radar often used only has a 60 mile range so the system knows what is coming on before the radar detects it.

Transponder codes are only good if you know what they mean. Receiving a code of ASHGIWEN only means anything if you know what that is and if it's a friend or not. And you can only receive the code if the target is squawking it. It also doesn't tell you if the object has been captured or stolen or the pilot/crew possessed or under mind control, or deserting or turned traitor. All of which is possible in Rifts. Also, updates either need to be installed by hand or transmitted. Those updates can be intercepted or take years to install. The CS does have troops all over and without satellite communications it'll take a while for messages to go from one place to another. It would be something for the CS Courier to do though. And if your in the middle of no where and your GB is stolen, it's pretty difficult to tell anyone. It's even more difficult when you're dead. Radar is limited by range and blocked by terrain. If radar can't detect it, how's it know to even ask the transponder to identify itself?

As for locations to obtain GBs, there also forgotten bunkers, the Black Market, the NGR, and Orbital Factories.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:12 am

Zer0 Kay" wrote:. The point is there are three ways to make new chromium in canon IIRC: FQ, Republicans and NEMA factories. It doesn't say that the flechettes in a GB's BG's Shell are chromium so they could probably be reverse engineered and manufactured elsewhere but in a CS+FQ hates everyone else having GBs they'd probably treat manufacture and or sale (and possibly even possession) of the iconic munition as confession of high treason and grounds for immediate field execution.

In NA it would likely be FQ and Archie-3 (which represents NEMA, and is essentially the Republican's supplier), but lets not forget that there are several other places that produce GB on/near Earth like Japan, Triax (acquired from FQ), the New Navy (possibly, they have a supply of GBs, which after 300years likely requires they production capacity), Silver Republics in SA (IIRC they produce a GB variant), and of course the Orbitals (Freedom Station specifically).

I can't seem to find it, but I thought there was a reference to GB ammunition production being easy enough that someone (IIRC it was an Operator OCC specifically) could do it in a backwoods garage/shop. Which makes sense as there is nothing overly special about the ammunition in text as you said, and there are other examples of railgun flechette users (Naruni Hovertank in Mercenaries, Arkhons in SA2, Archie-3 proxies) and its not like Palladium goes out of their way to establish sizes for a given railgun/weapon (atleast in the past) to prevent the C-40R and the NG-202 from using a common projectile, or the flechette examples from "sharing".

I'd forgotten that Japan and Silver Republics produced GBs. Good catch! Distance is a problem but if Triax can sell products in North America from Germany, Japan and SRR can too. They just haven't so far. As for Archie-3, he obviously can make GBs as you've pointed out. I think he chooses not to use Chromium. It wouldn't fit with Shemarians and would draw too much attention if he started using it in Titan Robotics's products.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:26 am Zer0 Kay, you do know the Republican's manufacturing base IS Archie-3 (established way back with SB1r), they essentially "hijack" his factories while he is in "sleep mode" using access codes available to them. Without Archie-3, the Republicans cannot reproduce any of their Golden Age equipment which includes Chromium units. So yes, Archie-3 does have Chromium technology. Why he doesn't use it isn't clear or stated (IIRC) so anything I offer would be speculation, but he is also credited with being the source of the random found "caches" of Glitterboys IIRC.

Re: "backwoods garage". I'm not saying I disagree per say that the individual(s) doing this shouldn't have certain skills (and equipment), but in terms of tech level the GB shells are easy to reproduce is what I'm getting at. Ignoring size & propellant mechanisms for a moment, we're essentially left with the GB round being a glorified shotgun shell that fires flechettes (and the U.S used shotgun fletchettes in Vietnam). Nothing says the GB shell/round (or sub munition) require special materials (obviously the shell/round has to be ferrous), which lowers the tech level to produce the things. Nor am I saying that someone working alone in a garage/workshop is going to match production with a factory either, it might take that lone individual (assuming equipment, skills, and raw materials) a few days to reproduce one ready to use GB shell but the factory could be putting out 60 shells an hour (for all we know) per line.

Though IRL there has to be some sort of propellant mechanism for Railguns so that the armature doesn't weld to the rails, I doubt Palladium deals with that.

The shell round does not have to be ferrous for use in a railgun. If we're assuming that the Boomgun is a real railgun and not a coilgun the armature, whatever is pushing the round out of the barrel, just needs to be conductive.

These flechette rounds aren't even as advanced as the shotgun flechette rounds. Those have actual darts with fins and these are just wafers of metal. I think they'd have to be made of MD material or they'd shatter on impact. I kind of imagine the rounds insides like a single wafer of MD metal that got sliced by a micron thick laser and still sticks together like a 100 stack of box knife blades, staples or nailgun nails. More the first as they don't have glue on them but would likely have some form of lubricant so they can separate in flight.

Even if they use ARCHIE it isn't ARCHIE. If it was ARCHIE all of the ARCHIE GBs would have hidden cameras in them like the Titan Robotics do. Well if he is the reason then I'd rule in my game that there is a % chance your GB is bugged by ARCHIE.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:00 pm

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:06 pm If we're talking pre FQ's GB Legion reveal, sure the CS equated all GBs as enemies of the state and they'd try to annihilate all of them. But I was talking after the reveal and after the CS vs. FQ "war" when they became allies again. The FQ would likely install transponders. The point of a transponder is that the CS wouldn't have to stop and ask. The IFF system automatically interrogates the transponder, usually encoded so the transponders will only respond when it receives the proper interrogation code. Then the CS radar and visual systems would identify FQ GB as friendly and other GB as unknown which is then translated by the human as an automatic kill order... I guess since the radar is somehow able to identify target shape it would skip the person having to make a judgement call and just identify all non-friendly GB as enemies.

I don't recall the CS killing every GB they saw. Is that one of your things? I really don't see how it'd work either. FQ was making GBs. They're not going to want to ally with a group that destroys their main defenders on sight. That would put them on a war footing from their first contact as they were using GBs their founding. And the big reveal wasn't that FQ had GBs. It was that they had so many. Putting transponders only works as long as friends have the codes, and those codes aren't stolen or captured.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:58 pm Also parts do wear out and ammo gets expended. Replacements would be needed. Sure some could be found in a bunker but eventually the supplies would run out. Replacements would need to come from someplace. That someplace would either be salvage, another bunker, or FQ.

Uh... yeah... how does any of that counter anything I said? The only thing is in a CS hates GBs except from FQ world the FQ isn't going to sell any of their GB gear to characters. That's like the CS selling Death's Head Transports to Merc groups. The point is there are three ways to make new chromium in canon IIRC: FQ, Republicans and NEMA factories. It doesn't say that the flechettes in a GB's BG's Shell are chromium so they could probably be reverse engineered and manufactured elsewhere but in a CS+FQ hates everyone else having GBs they'd probably treat manufacture and or sale (and possibly even possession) of the iconic munition as confession of high treason and grounds for immediate field execution.

In a world where the CS hates GBs and kills them on sight, the CS would never have joined with FQ. Again, FQ was using GBs from their very founding. It was CS wanting, in part, FQ to give up their GBs that drove them away. FQ wouldn't join a group who was killing their main defenders on site. And it was FQ's GBs hat gave rise to the GB legend. And why would anyone give their enemy their transponder codes?

Also All equipment from PA to giant robots, from tanks to planes, probably have transponders and depending on the paranoia of the owning group would determine how often the codes are cycle within the system and how often they're updated. If they cycle often capturing a code during battle would be a short lived problem. If they're updated frequently, as in new series of codes put into the system, then having a unit stolen is only a financial issue and not a national security issue. A character stealing a suit won't be able to come back and act like they're part of the group. a transponder isn't a radar it is a radio system so as long as whatever is being interrogated is able to carry the transponder equipment then IFF would work. So maybe in the future the transponder system is the size of a smart card. Cool then all your soldiers could use IFF. Now it is a couple computers and a radio transmitter and receiver with enough power to transmit over 100 miles but the radar often used only has a 60 mile range so the system knows what is coming on before the radar detects it.

Transponder codes are only good if you know what they mean. Receiving a code of ASHGIWEN only means anything if you know what that is and if it's a friend or not. And you can only receive the code if the target is squawking it. It also doesn't tell you if the object has been captured or stolen or the pilot/crew possessed or under mind control, or deserting or turned traitor. All of which is possible in Rifts. Also, updates either need to be installed by hand or transmitted. Those updates can be intercepted or take years to install. The CS does have troops all over and without satellite communications it'll take a while for messages to go from one place to another. It would be something for the CS Courier to do though. And if your in the middle of no where and your GB is stolen, it's pretty difficult to tell anyone. It's even more difficult when you're dead. Radar is limited by range and blocked by terrain. If radar can't detect it, how's it know to even ask the transponder to identify itself?

As for locations to obtain GBs, there also forgotten bunkers, the Black Market, the NGR, and Orbital Factories.
[/quote]

Re: FQ having GB since always... I'll have to go back and read again.
Re: transponder codes... that isn't how they work. The interrogator in one unit sends out signals at 1030MHz requesting data from any transponders in range when a transponder acknowledges it responds at 1090MHz and they start communicate IRL this is how we get flight numbers (Mode A and B) and altitude (Mode C) on radar because a AN/GPN-27 only detects azimuth and range and with change in azimuth and range = speed. The military IFF system uses the same type of setup and the computers talk to each other the people never see anything other than some sort of acknowledgement that the targets transponder has responded as friend meaning the computer has received a code. If it doesn't receive a proper code it is identified as foe if it doesn't respond it is identified as unknown. You'd never see ASHGIWEN. I never claimed it reported if it is stolen who who is piloting/crewing or conditions so stop putting up strawmen. Oh thank gosh it is only possible in Rifts that a person could be under the influence of something, deserting or turned traitor. That'd suck if that could happen in the real world. Well in my game the CS aren't a bunch of morons and have both laser comms and repeaters and buried fiber optics both of which can't be intercepted without them noticing.
Radar is blocked by terrain. Interrogators and transponders are AGAIN radio systems. It isn't the radar that tells the interrogator to do its job the interrogator is always doing its job and normally reaches out to 200 miles the radar is limited to 60. You know what else is blocked by terrain? Uh the mark 1 eyeball that would be used to see the targets and whatever gun your using to target the Glitterboys unless it is artillery but even a missile first has to achieve lock unless it is a dumb rocket being used as artillery so in the case of an artillery unit with IFF but no radar lock depending on how they've updated the system in the Golden Age they'd at a minimum know if the unit is one of theirs, the altitude and "identity", probably callsign like they do now for military flights but for ground units. But if the CS has posted something like TACANs or in Rifts just TACN markers all around their territory the IFF may also give location based on TACN readings.

Sambot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:10 pm

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:12 am

Zer0 Kay" wrote:. The point is there are three ways to make new chromium in canon IIRC: FQ, Republicans and NEMA factories. It doesn't say that the flechettes in a GB's BG's Shell are chromium so they could probably be reverse engineered and manufactured elsewhere but in a CS+FQ hates everyone else having GBs they'd probably treat manufacture and or sale (and possibly even possession) of the iconic munition as confession of high treason and grounds for immediate field execution.

In NA it would likely be FQ and Archie-3 (which represents NEMA, and is essentially the Republican's supplier), but lets not forget that there are several other places that produce GB on/near Earth like Japan, Triax (acquired from FQ), the New Navy (possibly, they have a supply of GBs, which after 300years likely requires they production capacity), Silver Republics in SA (IIRC they produce a GB variant), and of course the Orbitals (Freedom Station specifically).

I can't seem to find it, but I thought there was a reference to GB ammunition production being easy enough that someone (IIRC it was an Operator OCC specifically) could do it in a backwoods garage/shop. Which makes sense as there is nothing overly special about the ammunition in text as you said, and there are other examples of railgun flechette users (Naruni Hovertank in Mercenaries, Arkhons in SA2, Archie-3 proxies) and its not like Palladium goes out of their way to establish sizes for a given railgun/weapon (atleast in the past) to prevent the C-40R and the NG-202 from using a common projectile, or the flechette examples from "sharing".

I'd forgotten that Japan and Silver Republics produced GBs. Good catch! Distance is a problem but if Triax can sell products in North America from Germany, Japan and SRR can too. They just haven't so far. As for Archie-3, he obviously can make GBs as you've pointed out. I think he chooses not to use Chromium. It wouldn't fit with Shemarians and would draw too much attention if he started using it in Titan Robotics's products.

Triax can sell products in NA because of their high altitude super sonic transports that japan doesn't have and not knowing what is going on beyond they're borders and the demon sea why would they develop an SSC to check? Because they're full to the brim with funds and have tons of leisure time? SRR would have to go over all those hostile kingdoms, again... not likely. Everyone is busy in their little spheres of influence... intentionally.

BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.
Agree on Titan Robotics but then your claiming that the CS and FQ would be looking out for Chromium when they apparently don't care about "wild" GBs in your world so why would they care about Titan Robotics using Chromium?

Zer0 Kay wrote:Though IRL there has to be some sort of propellant mechanism for Railguns so that the armature doesn't weld to the rails, I doubt Palladium deals with that.

I doubt Palladium goes into the operational details on much of anything, even aspects that might be useful for game play (like caliber of round, acceleration profile, engine output, etc) in Rifts. Though they appear to be getting a bit better on some details as of late (and there might be an odd reference here or there, I know the Triax Dragonwing gives an acceleration profile, which means we know the Thrust/Weight Ratio of the unit and it is a beast that could spank the stock VF-1 from Macross).

Zer0 Kay wrote:The shell round does not have to be ferrous for use in a railgun. If we're assuming that the Boomgun is a real railgun and not a coilgun the armature, whatever is pushing the round out of the barrel, just needs to be conductive.

I agree, the entire package doesn't have to be ferrous, but you are assuming the existence of a component that might not exist (or even be disposable in some form).

Zer0 Kay wrote:These flechette rounds aren't even as advanced as the shotgun flechette rounds.

I agree the GB rounds aren't as advanced as modern RW flechette rounds in terms of design, which makes them all the easier to produce unless they are made of some extotic alloy, which we seem to agree they aren't. We might also be cutting hairs here, technically they aren't "flechette" in the text, they are "flechette-like" (RMB pg219 in fluff text for the RG-14 reads "accelerates its flechette style rounds", which is preserved in RUE). The Line art also describes them as "slugs", and per the lineart are 1" long holds in the 7" long shell casing (RMB pg221, which is reprinted in RUE but in shrunken form that you'd likely need to bust out a magnifying glass), so PB might have a "propellant stage" since 4x banks of 1" slugs would addup to 4" leaving 3" of useable space.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Even if they use ARCHIE it isn't ARCHIE. If it was ARCHIE all of the ARCHIE GBs would have hidden cameras in them like the Titan Robotics do. Well if he is the reason then I'd rule in my game that there is a % chance your GB is bugged by ARCHIE.

I think it's more of a gray area to be honest, if Archie ever figures out how to stop the Republicans from using his facilities (or finds away to use it against them) the Republicans could be cut off and have no "natural" manufacturing base of their own after that since essentially what they do is "break in" when the plant(s) are supposed to be shut down and run the place.

Zer0 Kay wrote:BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.

regarding the MDC to Weight Ratio, I've done a TOTAL MDC to Mass Ratio (Megaversal) project in the past (all mass was converted to a single unit of kg so they are all directly comparable). That project (with an incomplete library even at the time but was still quite extensive) showed for tech there was clear "stratification" layers in terms of the ratio. If you use that ranking, then EBA suits are made of even better material. Sticking to the same "stratification" layers though, the Glitterboys did not have the best ratio to stuff on their layer (all of which would be considered "better" than the layer with the Robot Vehicles).

The best ratio I had for Power Armor was the NG-JK1B PA from WB10 with a ratio of ~14.83. The first GB to come in on the list (@ #47 of 139) was the Silver Wolf at ~3.98. The book OG USA-G10 GB (#78) had a ratio of ~2.29. All of which beats out the best Robot Mecha (and heavy Vehicles like Tanks) that came in at less that ~1.0 even though they have all that extra mass they don't get a lot of extra MDC out of it, but this might be due to PB fudging the numbers on certain platforms to make them more "playable" and not a reflection of their actual value since by your argument the materials that goes into the NG-JK1B is better than even Chromium, or whatever the CS uses for the CA-3 (WB11) EBA at ~74.07.

And if you want to know what the best ratio was, that was for creatures (specifically the Nymph in CB1r with a value of ~1,058.82, and yes you read that right they would give just over 1,000MDC per kg). And I'll also point out that 74 of the 93 Body Armor suits I looked at had better ratios than the best Power Armor using the multi-location rules introduced later in the line (13 out of 118 using the old one-location starting in RMB/1E-RT). So really if you want the best MDC to Mass Ratio, you should be stringing up Nymphs on your mecha like Evil Morty did to his dimensional variants in S1E10 of Rick & Morty to his hideout (in overkill fashion to hide from Ricks).

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:18 pm
Re: FQ having GB since always... I'll have to go back and read again.
Re: transponder codes... that isn't how they work. The interrogator in one unit sends out signals at 1030MHz requesting data from any transponders in range when a transponder acknowledges it responds at 1090MHz and they start communicate IRL this is how we get flight numbers (Mode A and B) and altitude (Mode C) on radar because a AN/GPN-27 only detects azimuth and range and with change in azimuth and range = speed. The military IFF system uses the same type of setup and the computers talk to each other the people never see anything other than some sort of acknowledgement that the targets transponder has responded as friend meaning the computer has received a code. If it doesn't receive a proper code it is identified as foe if it doesn't respond it is identified as unknown. You'd never see ASHGIWEN. I never claimed it reported if it is stolen who who is piloting/crewing or conditions so stop putting up strawmen. Oh thank gosh it is only possible in Rifts that a person could be under the influence of something, deserting or turned traitor. That'd suck if that could happen in the real world. Well in my game the CS aren't a bunch of morons and have both laser comms and repeaters and buried fiber optics both of which can't be intercepted without them noticing.
Radar is blocked by terrain. Interrogators and transponders are AGAIN radio systems. It isn't the radar that tells the interrogator to do its job the interrogator is always doing its job and normally reaches out to 200 miles the radar is limited to 60. You know what else is blocked by terrain? Uh the mark 1 eyeball that would be used to see the targets and whatever gun your using to target the Glitterboys unless it is artillery but even a missile first has to achieve lock unless it is a dumb rocket being used as artillery so in the case of an artillery unit with IFF but no radar lock depending on how they've updated the system in the Golden Age they'd at a minimum know if the unit is one of theirs, the altitude and "identity", probably callsign like they do now for military flights but for ground units. But if the CS has posted something like TACANs or in Rifts just TACN markers all around their territory the IFF may also give location based on TACN readings.

GBs were used to found FQ and gave rise the the GB Legends.

If it doesn't get a response, how's it know there's anything there?
I'm also not putting up strawmen. The radios sending the signals don't know if the one piloting it is a friend or foe, or a friend who's possessed or mind controlled. It also doesn't know if the codes are stolen or not. Just if it's the right code. Presuming it can even transmit and receive from that distance. The local radio stations here go bad when the sun goes down and while I'm in the mountains. If they can be blocked so can other radio signals. Laser Coms are only good if the laser can hit the target. And fiber opics? You're troops are tethered to a ground line? That would keep their communications, mostly, secure but it'd cause havoc with maneuverability. And how's your Mark I Eyeball supposed to know who's inside the GB and if they're on your side or not?

Zer0 Kay wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:28 pm Triax can sell products in NA because of their high altitude super sonic transports that japan doesn't have and not knowing what is going on beyond they're borders and the demon sea why would they develop an SSC to check? Because they're full to the brim with funds and have tons of leisure time? SRR would have to go over all those hostile kingdoms, again... not likely. Everyone is busy in their little spheres of influence... intentionally.

BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.
Agree on Titan Robotics but then your claiming that the CS and FQ would be looking out for Chromium when they apparently don't care about "wild" GBs in your world so why would they care about Titan Robotics using Chromium?

True, Japan and the SRR have their own issued but the CS has travelled the world. They could pick up their orders. And it isn't like there aren't ships and shipping companies that could be hired to do the job. Pirates need someone to attack and Mercs need something to guard.

Who said anything about paint?
Titan Robotics using Chromium, that had been limited to GBs, would draw attention. It screams either, "WE FOUND LOST SECRETS!" or "WE STOLE FREE QUEBECK'S SECRETS!". Either way, they're screaming, "WE CAN MAKE GLITTER BOYS!" I don't think Archie-3 wants that kind of attention to his enterprises.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:47 am

Zer0 Kay wrote:Though IRL there has to be some sort of propellant mechanism for Railguns so that the armature doesn't weld to the rails, I doubt Palladium deals with that.

I doubt Palladium goes into the operational details on much of anything, even aspects that might be useful for game play (like caliber of round, acceleration profile, engine output, etc) in Rifts. Though they appear to be getting a bit better on some details as of late (and there might be an odd reference here or there, I know the Triax Dragonwing gives an acceleration profile, which means we know the Thrust/Weight Ratio of the unit and it is a beast that could spank the stock VF-1 from Macross).

Zer0 Kay wrote:The shell round does not have to be ferrous for use in a railgun. If we're assuming that the Boomgun is a real railgun and not a coilgun the armature, whatever is pushing the round out of the barrel, just needs to be conductive.

1. I agree, the entire package doesn't have to be ferrous, but you are assuming the existence of a component that might not exist (or even be disposable in some form).

Zer0 Kay wrote:These flechette rounds aren't even as advanced as the shotgun flechette rounds.

2. I agree the GB rounds aren't as advanced as modern RW flechette rounds in terms of design, which makes them all the easier to produce unless they are made of some extotic alloy, which we seem to agree they aren't. We might also be cutting hairs here, technically they aren't "flechette" in the text, they are "flechette-like" (RMB pg219 in fluff text for the RG-14 reads "accelerates its flechette style rounds", which is preserved in RUE). The Line art also describes them as "slugs", and per the lineart are 1" long holds in the 7" long shell casing (RMB pg221, which is reprinted in RUE but in shrunken form that you'd likely need to bust out a magnifying glass), so PB might have a "propellant stage" since 4x banks of 1" slugs would addup to 4" leaving 3" of useable space.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Even if they use ARCHIE it isn't ARCHIE. If it was ARCHIE all of the ARCHIE GBs would have hidden cameras in them like the Titan Robotics do. Well if he is the reason then I'd rule in my game that there is a % chance your GB is bugged by ARCHIE.

3. I think it's more of a gray area to be honest, if Archie ever figures out how to stop the Republicans from using his facilities (or finds away to use it against them) the Republicans could be cut off and have no "natural" manufacturing base of their own after that since essentially what they do is "break in" when the plant(s) are supposed to be shut down and run the place.

Zer0 Kay wrote:BS per Japan Chromium can be painted over it just looses its resistance until the paint is gone but its superior MDC to weight ratio would outweigh the loss of the resistance and be excellent for light combat robots.

4. regarding the MDC to Weight Ratio, I've done a TOTAL MDC to Mass Ratio (Megaversal) project in the past (all mass was converted to a single unit of kg so they are all directly comparable). That project (with an incomplete library even at the time but was still quite extensive) showed for tech there was clear "stratification" layers in terms of the ratio. If you use that ranking, then EBA suits are made of even better material. Sticking to the same "stratification" layers though, the Glitterboys did not have the best ratio to stuff on their layer (all of which would be considered "better" than the layer with the Robot Vehicles).

The best ratio I had for Power Armor was the NG-JK1B PA from WB10 with a ratio of ~14.83. The first GB to come in on the list (@ #47 of 139) was the Silver Wolf at ~3.98. The book OG USA-G10 GB (#78) had a ratio of ~2.29. All of which beats out the best Robot Mecha (and heavy Vehicles like Tanks) that came in at less that ~1.0 even though they have all that extra mass they don't get a lot of extra MDC out of it, but this might be due to PB fudging the numbers on certain platforms to make them more "playable" and not a reflection of their actual value since by your argument the materials that goes into the NG-JK1B is better than even Chromium, or whatever the CS uses for the CA-3 (WB11) EBA at ~74.07.

And if you want to know what the best ratio was, that was for creatures (specifically the Nymph in CB1r with a value of ~1,058.82, and yes you read that right they would give just over 1,000MDC per kg). And I'll also point out that 74 of the 93 Body Armor suits I looked at had better ratios than the best Power Armor using the multi-location rules introduced later in the line (13 out of 118 using the old one-location starting in RMB/1E-RT). So really if you want the best MDC to Mass Ratio, you should be stringing up Nymphs on your mecha like Evil Morty did to his dimensional variants in S1E10 of Rick & Morty to his hideout (in overkill fashion to hide from Ricks).

1. NONE of the package needs to be ferrous. A railgun doesn't use magnetic forces (Gauss) to project the payload it uses Lorentz force which is an electro more than magnetic force which only lists as an E-M force because all E forces produce M but in this case it isn't the M that is propelling anything it is just a field around it like all other electric circuits. If the weapon requires ferrous materials then it is a coilgun or other form of gauss gun.

2. Not necessarily. They are most likely MD as SD blades are likely to cause various issues starting with deformation at mach 7, also causing irregular shot pattern. Also just like shooting led at a suitably thick plate of Tungsten that SDC round is more likely to ricochet or simply smash against the surface and then deflect (really still just ricocheting). I always explained the extra length of the cartridge as chemical accelerant making it just like a shotgun shell except the plastic casing (not regular plastic in this case) comes out of the gun with the slugs and doesn't separate until it is out of the barrel.

3. MMMM IDK if that is really how it was happening ARCHIE would station robots around access areas and you can't claim that all the robots go down at the same time otherwise the enemies of the Shemarrians would have taken them out already. "What they doing?" "I don't know there just kinda standing there." "Okay it's probably a trap lets not fall for it and come back later when they're looking for us." I've always thought the Republican's are both located within and have access to a part of ARCHIE that is off line from the rest of the network and their part has the capability to build Glitterboys and they have been the source not ARCHIE of GBs in NA that aren't from FQ. They're in a section that was either removed from ARCHIE's memory or was presumed destroyed by ARCHIE and so was severed from memory to manage resources.

4. No you haven't. You've done an MDC to weight ratio. We don't know the mass of most things in the game... pretty sure anything. Also can't include Pixies or most MDC creatures as most MDC creatures are magic in nature so their MDC is magic not physical and now we're arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... it doesn't freaking matter it isn't comparable to the amount of damage chobam armor can take per inch. The freaking pixie isn't not only an apple your comparing broccoli that tastes like ice cream to apples. So magic creature to magic creature, non-magic creature to non magic creature, body armor to body armor, PA to PA, vehicles to vehicles.