Can Psi-surgery be used to install cybernetics?

[darthauthor]

Can Psi-surgery be used to install cybernetics?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nien, nyet, ie, no

[Curbludgeon]

I don't see why it couldn't serve as an adjunct to the Cybernetic Medicine skill, but the skill would still be required. In that the installation of bionics or other cybernetics isn't one of the activities made explicit in the power description I'd suggest ad hoc going with the power not decreasing the time of surgery, but still providing the equivalent of "professional hospital" treatment. This would leave battlefield bionic triage as more a specialty of the Vedmak, while allowing a village or mercenary band to be able to repurpose scavenged implants without access to quite as much specialized equipment.

[darthauthor]

Well here is an example of an extreme set of exceptional circumstances.

A Mind Melter with the Super Psionic Power of Mind Bond uses it on a Cyber-Doctor.
In Addition the Mind Melter has the psionic powers of Psychic Surgery, Deaden Pain, and Psychic Diagnosis

So they have the skill and understanding of the Cyber-Doc but their psychic way of doing surgery.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well here is an example of an extreme set of exceptional circumstances.

A Mind Melter with the Super Psionic Power of Mind Bond uses it on a Cyber-Doctor.
In Addition the Mind Melter has the psionic powers of Psychic Surgery, Deaden Pain, and Psychic Diagnosis

So they have the skill and understanding of the Cyber-Doc but their psychic way of doing surgery.

"Psychic Surgery is used to repair broken bones, and internal injuries, and for the removal of foreign objects using only ones bare hands, no tools or instruments."

it can also serve as the equivlent of "professional hospital treatment" for the recovery from Coma/Death rolls.

That is what it does. that is all it does.

It cannot be used to modify someone's apperance ala plastic surgery.

it cannot implant things, only remove them.

A mind bond would let a mind melter attempt to use the surgery skill like a cyber doc, but he'd need to also steal the Doc's tools and operating room.

It's got limitations on what it can do. it's not a psychic replacement for all types of surgury.

On the other hand, instantly repairing broken bones is really useful and not something that regular surgury can do. so it's got that going for it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psi-surgery is done by fingers.
Installing cybernetics requires the ability to connect what is being installed to individual nerves.

So it is a matter of scale that can't be overcome.

Nien, nyet, ie, no

[Curbludgeon]

Can also be used to heal a character who has suffered so much damage that he or she has lapsed
into a coma (zero Hit Points or less)[sic]. Psychic Surgery is the equivalent of "professional hospital" treatment. The recovery from a coma (near death) is equal to treatment from a hospital, 1 -66%

This needn't be taken to mean that Psychic surgery is the equivalent of "professional hospital" treatment solely for the purposes of a coma/death recovery roll, and with the repetition in the third quoted sentence suggests that it shouldn't. Psychic Surgery could be argued to apply in this context of being "professional hospital" treatment for other purposes, such as being able to detect if a given body is in a Death Trance or not.

[Grazzik]

Okay, so my initial reaction was "no, this sounds like overreach". RAW the power's description appears limited.

Then again, it requires psychic diagnosis and, between the two powers, at least 18 ISP. Add in a couple rounds of deaden pain and we're talking 22-26 ISP, quite a high ISP spend for one healer. So, it is only reasonable that this much psychic energy must do more than basic stuff that could be covered with a shot or two from a IRMSS and a bone splint.

So, to try to better understand the limits of the power, I reread the description and noticed that the only reference to how the power worked was the use of bare hands. Yet, there is no description as to what that actually means. To fix a bone, does one reach into the flesh and squeeze the bone fragments together like putty? To take out an inflamed appendix or bullet, does one reach in and yank it out? For those, sure, I buy the direct hands-on approach. However, the reference to internal injuries is vague. Stemming internal bleeding is more than just pinching the rupture on a vein or artery, as there are all the other blood vessels that may need to be pinched or cauterized - something one can't do with pudgy fingers. Can nerve damage be fixed at least partially using this power? It's not clear.

BTW I'm avoiding references to "hospital" to model the act of surgery as quality of healing and standard of care for "hospital" has not been defined. A CS hospital? A field hospital on front lines? A hospital from 1990 USA?

So, trying to get a handle on this, I realized that while the surgical outcome is the same, the intent of the power may not be to use hands as TOOLS to cut and bind, but to use hands as the CONDUIT of psychic power to entice the body to heal correctly. The power induces the bone and flesh to knit, organs to heal, nerves to regenerate (at least a little?) all through the power of direct touch, the internal laying on of hands. Therefore, scale is irrelevant as long as the healer has the requisite knowledge and skill. Ruptured spleen? A quick insertion of a few fingers into the patient, caress of the spleen, and zap of healing energy and the patient is as good as new-ish.

So, could this work with implantation? Well, maybe yeah. Not knowing how bionics and cybernetic implants actually connect with the biological elements in the world of Rifts, the bare minimum is for nerve endings to sync with some tech component, whether a gel or chip or other nerve receptor. Like reattaching a severed limb (something that can be done in hospitals IRL), the power could be used to have severed nerve endings "heal" into the implant, probably by having the healer gently help the biological end of the limb into the bionic limb socket or push the flesh in and around the cyber implant, as the power induces the biological component to rapidly heal in conformity with the implant. Complicated wiring to the brain and such for sensors or other implants would require careful work across large parts of the body to implant filaments and mistakes on the part of the healer might have significant side effects.

As GM I would definitely require any healer attempting this to have a) at minimum Psi Surgery and Psi Diagnosis and b) MD in Cyber or Bionics depending on the implant against which skill rolls would be required. I would also mod any skill roll depending on the complexity of the implantation. Keep in mind the rules on number of surgeries required for any given implant, as set out in the Bionics sourcebook.

I would also suggest the player consider the fleshsculptor OCC or cybermage OCC in Nightbane for a canon magical version of a cyber doc, rather than trying to house rule a psychic version.

One other thing, where scale of surgery is no longer a barrier if the healer just needs the requisite powers and skills, some may say this could allow a healer with knowledge of genetic medicine to get right in there and induce psychic surgery at the genomic level. First, this combination of powers and skills in Rifts Earth would be super super rare as a PC, possibly NPC only. Second, if the GM okays it, go for it. If there are invisible dragons and sentient AIs, no reason why you couldn't have psychic geneticists. There are already psychic Gene-splicer dbees after all... and it is not expressly mentioned in SB3 Mindwerks how they do what they do and whether they rely solely on science.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okay, so my initial reaction was "no, this sounds like overreach". RAW the power's description appears limited.

Then again, it requires psychic diagnosis and, between the two powers, at least 18 ISP. Add in a couple rounds of deaden pain and we're talking 22-26 ISP, quite a high ISP spend for one healer. So, it is only reasonable that this much psychic energy must do more than basic stuff that could be covered with a shot or two from a IRMSS and a bone splint.

So, to try to better understand the limits of the power, I reread the description and noticed that the only reference to how the power worked was the use of bare hands. Yet, there is no description as to what that actually means. To fix a bone, does one reach into the flesh and squeeze the bone fragments together like putty? To take out an inflamed appendix or bullet, does one reach in and yank it out? For those, sure, I buy the direct hands-on approach. However, the reference to internal injuries is vague. Stemming internal bleeding is more than just pinching the rupture on a vein or artery, as there are all the other blood vessels that may need to be pinched or cauterized - something one can't do with pudgy fingers. Can nerve damage be fixed at least partially using this power? It's not clear.

BTW I'm avoiding references to "hospital" to model the act of surgery as quality of healing and standard of care for "hospital" has not been defined. A CS hospital? A field hospital on front lines? A hospital from 1990 USA?

So, trying to get a handle on this, I realized that while the surgical outcome is the same, the intent of the power may not be to use hands as TOOLS to cut and bind, but to use hands as the CONDUIT of psychic power to entice the body to heal correctly. The power induces the bone and flesh to knit, organs to heal, nerves to regenerate (at least a little?) all through the power of direct touch, the internal laying on of hands. Therefore, scale is irrelevant as long as the healer has the requisite knowledge and skill. Ruptured spleen? A quick insertion of a few fingers into the patient, caress of the spleen, and zap of healing energy and the patient is as good as new-ish.

So, could this work with implantation? Well, maybe yeah. Not knowing how bionics and cybernetic implants actually connect with the biological elements in the world of Rifts, the bare minimum is for nerve endings to sync with some tech component, whether a gel or chip or other nerve receptor. Like reattaching a severed limb (something that can be done in hospitals IRL), the power could be used to have severed nerve endings "heal" into the implant, probably by having the healer gently help the biological end of the limb into the bionic limb socket or push the flesh in and around the cyber implant, as the power induces the biological component to rapidly heal in conformity with the implant. Complicated wiring to the brain and such for sensors or other implants would require careful work across large parts of the body to implant filaments and mistakes on the part of the healer might have significant side effects.

As GM I would definitely require any healer attempting this to have a) at minimum Psi Surgery and Psi Diagnosis and b) MD in Cyber or Bionics depending on the implant against which skill rolls would be required. I would also mod any skill roll depending on the complexity of the implantation. Keep in mind the rules on number of surgeries required for any given implant, as set out in the Bionics sourcebook.

I would also suggest the player consider the fleshsculptor OCC or cybermage OCC in Nightbane for a canon magical version of a cyber doc, rather than trying to house rule a psychic version.

One other thing, where scale of surgery is no longer a barrier if the healer just needs the requisite powers and skills, some may say this could allow a healer with knowledge of genetic medicine to get right in there and induce psychic surgery at the genomic level. First, this combination of powers and skills in Rifts Earth would be super super rare as a PC, possibly NPC only. Second, if the GM okays it, go for it. If there are invisible dragons and sentient AIs, no reason why you couldn't have psychic geneticists. There are already psychic Gene-splicer dbees after all... and it is not expressly mentioned in SB3 Mindwerks how they do what they do and whether they rely solely on science.

Well remember, this is exactly the same power that a psi-healer from Palladium Fantasy has for the same cost.

IRMSS is something kept from the Golden Age, something so advanced that it seems like magic to people.

So the fact an IRMSS can do everything that psychic surgury can, is the point. it's what makes IRMSS so amazing.

The difference is a minor psychic from a village with no access to technology can spontaniously develop this power, so it's not like one replaces the other from a setting perspective. Sure, a psyhic with an IRMSS kit might not bother. but IRMSS kits cost tens of thousands per use, so...yea. I'd still say it's valuble even so.

[Grazzik]

Well remember, this is exactly the same power that a psi-healer from Palladium Fantasy has for the same cost.

IRMSS is something kept from the Golden Age, something so advanced that it seems like magic to people.

So the fact an IRMSS can do everything that psychic surgury can, is the point. it's what makes IRMSS so amazing.

The difference is a minor psychic from a village with no access to technology can spontaniously develop this power, so it's not like one replaces the other from a setting perspective. Sure, a psyhic with an IRMSS kit might not bother. but IRMSS kits cost tens of thousands per use, so...yea. I'd still say it's valuble even so.

Oh, totally agree with this - no dismissing the value of either the power or the tech intended. I was using the difference between the psi power and the tech to show that the healer can layer on specific skills to direct the power in the way they want to achieve the outcome the OP suggested... namely, install cybernetics.

An IRMSS lacks that programming... unless hacked and the robots reprogrammed to know that attaching the implant is part of the healing function.

A PF psi healer could also implant cyber using psi surgery if such a thing as cybernetics existed in their world and they had the requisite skills, but it doesn't and they don't, so the response to Darthauthor in that scenario is "no".

Otherwise, if they a) have the powers, b) have the skill knowledge with appropriate skill roll modifiers, and c) have a GM who agrees with this interpretation of an admittedly very skimpy RAW description of a power, then it should be possible to install cyber using psi powers.

[eliakon]

I will point out that later books have allowed it to be used for torture and murder.
So there is some leeway in what it can do from the base description