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Well, the first question I have is how close to the spell Metamorphis: Mist is this ability? I assume a lot like it? It's the only real analog I can find in the books.

Second, it says that the vampire is still vulnerable to water and elemental magic. Does that mean only spells by warlocks? Or does that mean that something like a fireball/lightning bolt/firebolt would still damage the vampire? What about pyrokentic attacks? Do things like Snow storm or Cloud of steam still do damage to it?

Third, how contiguous is this mist? If it were sliding through an aperature and that aperature was suddenly closed, would the mist be cut in two? How would that affect the vampire? Would it be pushed to one side or the other? Would it be be blown around in a stiff wind? Would Wind Rush push it? Would a Tornado pick it up and whirl it around or pull the parts of the mist apart? If the mist comes into contact with a Carpet if Adhesion, will it stick to it? Would just some of it stick to the carpet and be like a rope tied to the ground?

-Vek
"Vampires suck."

The Meta: Mist can be infered to be copying the Traditional Vampire's ability to turn to mist. However, they act under a different set of rules.

I would say that spells that produced an elemental effect would affect a vamp in mist form.

Very contiguous.
Yes, cut in half. It would loose one side. But that is what super-regeneration is for.
Mundane Wind or low level wind spells...would not harm the T Vamp. Push it around maybe, but not harm.

It would have to be a cloud of adhesion for it to stick.
(See the PF:MOM1 book for PF style spell creation rules, and NB:TtMD for the modern day style spell creation rules.)

Veknironth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:19 am Well, the first question I have is how close to the spell Metamorphis: Mist is this ability? I assume a lot like it? It's the only real analog I can find in the books.

Second, it says that the vampire is still vulnerable to water and elemental magic. Does that mean only spells by warlocks? Or does that mean that something like a fireball/lightning bolt/firebolt would still damage the vampire? What about pyrokentic attacks? Do things like Snow storm or Cloud of steam still do damage to it?

Third, how contiguous is this mist? If it were sliding through an aperature and that aperature was suddenly closed, would the mist be cut in two? How would that affect the vampire? Would it be pushed to one side or the other? Would it be be blown around in a stiff wind? Would Wind Rush push it? Would a Tornado pick it up and whirl it around or pull the parts of the mist apart? If the mist comes into contact with a Carpet if Adhesion, will it stick to it? Would just some of it stick to the carpet and be like a rope tied to the ground?

-Vek
"Vampires suck."

1) I'd say pretty close to identical, but not 100%
2) I'd say spells that are elemental in style, not necessarily origin. So a wizards fireball would have the same impact as a warlocks fireball. I'd say it's a GM call on psychic impact, but have to consider how the power would impact mist- there's really not much to "hit". But for things like pyrokentic powers, Id say theybare just as effective. Snow storm, I'd probably modify the results, as cold impacts the mist, snowflakes/hail pull drops from the cloud of mist, etc. Cloud of steam, I'd actually increase damage, as it would possibly increase the heat of the mist.
3) I'd say it depends on how water tight the aperture is. If its waterproof/watertight then I'd say yes, and the vampire should take appropriate damage. Maybe have a "by location" type damage chart, to figure out what parts of it got left behind. Wind based spells, I'd give the standard resistances and saves, maybe with a bonus, as there's an actual willpower holding the mist together. Carpet of Adhesion, I'd say no, the mist droplets are too fine

--GS
"You turned into a vampire. So in the morning, you wake up. Dead."

There are random hit locations in the RT core book and I think the RCB1 org. (not certain if they got transferred to the RCB1r)and maybe in the RGMG.

Well, let's go further. If the mist is so fine that the Carpet of Adhesion can't hold it, then what happens if you cast a globe of daylight right into the middle of the mist?

Also, what about being touched by a cross, shadow of a cross, or holy symbol? Would the vampire take damage and have to save vs Horror factor or be immobilized? And how does this cross/holy symbol thing work? Like could you hit it with a shadow and then move the light, and then put the shadow back on and do more damage? What about repeated applications of a holy symbol?

Finally, does holy water or running water affect the creature in mist form?

-Vek
"I have some stake in vampire killing.

Is its own special ability and isn't the spell.

Any spell that is elemental based would hurt it, first ed actually had a section in the wizard spells for elemental effect ones, so fireballs, lightning bolts and steam i would go with being a yes. I would also allow pyrokinesis to hurt it. I think they are solidly held together so a wind faster than 11kph could move it, but won't tear it apart unless the wind effect also says it does damage that isn't just physical. In game i'd likely describe the tornado tearing it apart, and then it reforming as soon as the tornado ends.
Carpet of adhesion wouldn't effect it (immune). Globe of daylight will hurt it as per normal but cannot destroy it. Running and rain will kill it, but getting it into running water would be hard, rain would work. I play the cross damage is once per round per source, so if you contact it with a holy symbol, its shadow won't do anything until the next round and holy water would hurt it too. (I play the damage of holy water a little different, with it doing 1d8 damage per round for 1d6 rounds).

As it is impervious to physical attacks blocking it off halfway wouldn't work, you wouldnt be able to close the gap totally (is an attack after all) but exceptional circumstances might get around this.

Veknironth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:30 pm Well, let's go further. If the mist is so fine that the Carpet of Adhesion can't hold it, then what happens if you cast a globe of daylight right into the middle of the mist?

Also, what about being touched by a cross, shadow of a cross, or holy symbol? Would the vampire take damage and have to save vs Horror factor or be immobilized? And how does this cross/holy symbol thing work? Like could you hit it with a shadow and then move the light, and then put the shadow back on and do more damage? What about repeated applications of a holy symbol?

Finally, does holy water or running water affect the creature in mist form?

-Vek
"I have some stake in vampire killing.

I'd say Globe of Daylight is standard effectiveness for vampires.. repels, possibly injures (I can't remember if it burns them in 2e or not).

For the cross (or setting specific, whatever holy symbol), I would say it acts almost like a shield, pushing the mist away, creating like a pocket of air around it.. after all, the mist still has some form of mind and will, so it can pull back and not make contact..

but I would say the shadow is meaningless. The shadow isn't "the holy symbol".

Running water I'd treat as a barrier.. personally, I'd say the barrier is as tall as the running water is wide, but it depends on how tough or easy you want to be on the vamp or party. I'd say minimum, the barrier should be about 5 feet high, or more.

Holy water... that's a tough one. Personally, I'd say they would take SOME damage, but it wouldn't be much, however, I'd let a line of holy water act like a wall, complete metaphysical barrier..

I mean, a lot of this we have to kind of wing and guess, because the books weren't THAT detailed about them. And they really couldn't be. I mean, to cover every possible scenario and idea, we would need a 4 inch thick book, just about the vamps.

Kiralon does have a solid point about the closing a barrier thing, though.

--GS
"If you're a 600 year old vampire, and are flat broke, just go hug daylight"

The western empire book, in the adventure part has the updated info about vamps, and the shadow of the crucifix damage is there plus other bits and pieces.

Veknironth wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:30 pm Well, let's go further. If the mist is so fine that the Carpet of Adhesion can't hold it, then what happens if you cast a globe of daylight right into the middle of the mist?

Also, what about being touched by a cross, shadow of a cross, or holy symbol? Would the vampire take damage and have to save vs Horror factor or be immobilized? And how does this cross/holy symbol thing work? Like could you hit it with a shadow and then move the light, and then put the shadow back on and do more damage? What about repeated applications of a holy symbol?

Finally, does holy water or running water affect the creature in mist form?

-Vek
"I have some stake in vampire killing.

Same thing as if you cast one in front of a non-mist T-Vamp...it would run away without being damaged.

cross, shadow of a cross, holy symbol, etc..ad nauseam... it is for the GM of that individual game to decide how. Because there is no direct text that covers those situation.

HW/RW, same answer as above, since there is no text covering it.

Well the text does say that the shadow of a cross and the like effect vampires, i do not believe that turning into mist would stop sunlight from burning it or a cross from repelling it as they aren't physical attacks.

kiralon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 3:13 pm Well the text does say that the shadow of a cross and the like effect vampires, i do not believe that turning into mist would stop sunlight from burning it or a cross from repelling it as they aren't physical attacks.

The question was specifically about the spell, Globe of Daylight, which says

"Since it is daylight, it can keep vampires at bay just beyond the edge of the light...."

It says it is Daylight, but then that it keeps vamps at bay, and doesn't say anything about harming them.

And then in Western Empire, pg 216, it states that GoD is not powerful enough to destroy a vamp, and only mentions it doing damage if cast inside a vampires coffin.
*******

Also, about the cross and shadow - it's in the book, but, ehh... I'm also wondering why the cross would be used anywhere on the world, considering none of the deities that I can think of have a thing about being crucified, but whatever (I have a feeling it was just copied from Rifts).

*******

Also, something about the mist form.. "immune to most physical attacks, including wood, silver, fire, and most magic."

So, that really opens up the magical fire question.. because we also see vampires are already impervious to normal fires... so, why mention it separately, unless it's meaning they're immune to magical fire when in mist form?

--GS

It was to show that turning into mist doesn't negate the other weakness's the Vampire has, so it would leave the area of effect of the globe of daylight.
I guess it depends on what you call elemental magic, is it spells from warlocks, wizard spells with elemental effects are listed in the spell list as elemental spells, and 2nd ed says that the wizard incantations imitate the elementalist magic but without needing an elemental sponsor. To me, a magical fireball incantation is classed as elemental magic so would hurt the mist.

kiralon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:58 pm It was to show that turning into mist doesn't negate the other weakness's the Vampire has, so it would leave the area of effect of the globe of daylight.
I guess it depends on what you call elemental magic, is it spells from warlocks, wizard spells with elemental effects are listed in the spell list as elemental spells, and 2nd ed says that the wizard incantations imitate the elementalist magic but without needing an elemental sponsor. To me, a magical fireball incantation is classed as elemental magic so would hurt the mist.

I can see that. I could actually see both ways, and which position I took would probably depend if I was player or GM...

Myself, I'd say that fireballs would still hurt them.

Now, things like pyrokentic attacks.. that's more of a grey area. Because that's not "magic" fire.

--GS
Vampires and werewolves and Nimro, oh my!

I'd allow it because it's not normal fire.

I say any magic that is elemental in nature would affect it.

Also, RAW in Western Empires talks about holy symbols and such, so, i'll go wit h RAW.

With the carpet of adhesion, i will give the mist (vamp) a save with positive modifier, and if fail, will slow it to half move, if save, no effect.