Shield Clarification

[zombietots]

I'm a bit confused here. I'm making a Merc. warrior with a small wood & leather shield and a Dwarven short sword (I chose the +3 damage) and have a strength of 18 (So, a +2 bonus)

Dwarven Short Sword DMG - 1D6+5

The confusion comes from the shield damage. Pg 60 says under the Shield W.P. "A shield can be used in one hand and a weapon in the other. +1 to strike with a shield (1D4 damage) at levels 4, 8, and 12. No bonus to strike when thrown. Hitting or butting somebody with a small or large shield does 2D4 damage."

Does this (1D4 damage) mean to add an extra 1D4 at 4th level making my shield 3d4+2 (I assume that I get the +2 for my strength bonus)

And Also
Dwarven Short Sword DMG - 1D6+5
Small Shield 2D4+2 That's a bit punchy if I'm understanding this right.

So, is this correct?

[kiralon]

no unfortunately. mostly without house rules shields are fairly sub par

[Veknironth]

Well, in my book it states that a strike with a shield does 1d4 damage. Then in the next paragraph throwing it does 1d6 and hitting or butting someone does 2d4 damage. Editing!

What I'm certain of is that none of these stack. What I'm not certain of is whether the shield does 1 or 2 d4 per attack. A split could be that you interpret a shield butt involves putting all of your weight behind it and is sort of a two handed attack. But really, it's just an awful bit of editing that leaves you to choose one or the other. If you choose the 2d4 then why even bother with the short sword?

-Vek
"Actually, why bother with the short sword anyway? Everyone knows that RAW it's Battle Axe or nothing."

[drewkitty ~..~]

where did you get the SD rating for the shield?
I ask because my PF2 core book (1st printing) does not have the following: 'Hitting or butting somebody with a small or large shield does 2D4 damage.' The text i have ends with the word 'thrown.'

[GoliathReturns]

Ah, the shield. One of the places that highlights editing problems.

My copy reads the same as Vek's- in one paragraph, says 1d4, in another 2d4.

The FAQ ends with the first paragraph, which lists 1d4.

Take what you will from it. FWIW, in my games, I go with a standard hit from a shield is 1d4+ PS bonus. A full on bash (taking two attacks) does 2d4+ (PS Bonus x2).

--GS

[kiralon]

1st ed has small shield doing 1d4 and large doing 1d6, so it might be shield sizes

[zombietots]

All right. Please don't take this offensively. It is not my intent and remember, body language is also important in understanding someone when they speak.

According to 1st edition 5th printing 1988

The Shield does
Pg 24
Small
LvI. S. /P. /Thr.
1 +0 /+1 /+0
Large
S. /P. /Thr.
+0 /+2 /+0



Nothing about attacks with shields and no S.D.C. yet. Just a note saying to replace after a certain time depending on shield size.

Revised Twelfth Printing 1994
The Shield does
Pg 24
Small
LvI. S. /P. /Thr.
1 +0 /+1 /+0
Large
S. /P. /Thr.
+0 /+2 /+0

It's the same.

So now we go to the 2nd Edition
Pg 60

If we start at the bottom of the second paragraph in the little squared of section for shield W.P.

Small shields can be thrown about 15 feet (4.6 m), inflicting 1D6 damage. Hitting or butting somebody with a small or large shield does 2D4 damage.

So, 1D6 if thrown Captain America style with no strike bonus.
and 2D4 for HITTING and butting no strike bonus. (N.B. No where does it say this takes 2 attacks)

In paragraph 1 where the bonuses are stated (N.B. BONUSES) +1 to parry at Level 1 No strike till level 4 and (1D4) in parentheses.


Now, all I was wanting to know, because of the way it looks to me, does this 1D4 add to the 2D4 at 4th level and again at 8 and 12 for a total of 5D4 hitting and butting at 12th level?

If there is no official rules judgement (Not trying to come off as an ass) and only each individual interpretation, then I will go with what I have written. I was just wanting to clarify whether I was understanding this correctly.

Thank you for all of your comments and I hope I didn't come of snarky.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note I was referencing the PF 2nd ed core book. previous post has been edited to reflect that.
-------------

My copy reads the same as Vek's- in one paragraph, says 1d4, in another 2d4.

So what printing is your core book from????? You left that out. It's on page two.

[zombietots]

Third Printing 1998 2nd edition
And my copy shows two damage values too.

The first as stated is (1D4) at 4th level which I assume is for adding to the damage increasing it to 3D4 at 4th level

The other paragraph states 2D4 for hitting and butting.

[kiralon]

In my first ed at the right at the bottom of page 24 it shows the price weight damage and cost of 8 different shields

[Veknironth]

Well, I don't know what would qualify as an "official rules judgement" but I think that the description is pretty clear.

"A shield can be used in one hand and a weapon in the other. + 1 to strike with a shield (lD4 damage) at levels 4, 8, and 12. No bonus to strike when thrown."

So, it seems rather clear that a +1 to strike with a shield at those levels is the meaning of the sentence. The damage, which is separated with the parenthesis, is just telling you the damage of the strike. If they were both increasing per level, then the damage would not be in parenthesis. It would also have a "+" in front of it, as does the strike bonus.

I also don't know why a shield would have its damage increased as the levels increase. Sure the W.P. Battle axe stupidly does this at second level, but having the damage increase three times?

-Vek
"Also, why the short sword?"

[zombietots]

Apparently, the description is not clear. That was the whole point for the question and the reason I got a few different answers.

Is there a difference between strike and hitting? what is hitting and butting, and why does it do 2D4? does that mean you can't do any damage (The 1D4) until 4th level or is it just the +1 to strike and the (1D4) was just slipped in there to let you know you do 1D4 damage with the shield?

So, I say again. If there is no official ruling, and everyone is just doing their own interpretation, I will just make my own decision. Although I really don't get the point of the forums then, except to see everyone's house rules.

The short sword is for the example, why does it matter? The question is about the shield.
Maybe "Crash Dummy" Darwin A.K.A. Darwin McMuscles, my test character, loves short swords.

[Veknironth]

Well, the forums are here for two main reasons. The first is to have someone do research for you. This is generally the job of Kiralon or Prysus who can direct the poster to a passage in a book that directly addresses the question. Or, they someone can bring in material from another book from the megaverse.

The second is to solicit opinions about subjects that don't seem to have a clear answer in the books. This is often due to poorly written descriptions or bad editing. The shield section is clearly a poor editing with two different damages listed in the same description for the skill. How someone missed this I don't know but it's not even the most egregious error in that book. (For my money it's on p186 in the description of Radiate Light where it gives you a +1 to charisma of all things!) But I think we're all united in saying that the 1d4 damage and the 2d4 damage are an either/or proposition and that the 1d4 does not increase per level.

Now, you might find succor in other books that have a W.P. Shield description, but there are two problems with that. The first is that those aren't canon to Palladium Fantasy. The second is that I did a quick check in the books I had around in the basement and found the following. In my first printing Rifts Main book, there is no W.P. Shield but this has probably been remedied in subsequent books. In my printing of Heroes Unlimited, Shields only do 1d4 damage. The 2d4 part isn't even listed. In my Beyond the Supernatural book, it has damage listed as 1d6 and 1d4.

-Vek
"This part is just for me to goof around and not necessarily address the original post."

[zombietots]

Ok, so after much thinking and discussing with my group we have decided that

1. Small shields do +1 Parry and large shields +2 Parry and increase by +1 at level 3,6,9,12, & 15 for both large and small
2. 1D4 strike damage (same as a punch) This is the (1D4) listed in the bonuses section
3. 2D4 hitting and butting damage for 2 attacks (same as a power punch)
4. Small shields can be thrown about 15 feet (4.6m) (sounds like Why files), inflicting 1D6 damage with no strike bonus

that the strike of +1 come at Levels 4,8, & 12

We will be using Damage to shields optional rule.

Thank you to everyone for your comments and assistance.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'm a bit confused here. I'm making a Merc. warrior with a small wood & leather shield and a Dwarven short sword (I chose the +3 damage) and have a strength of 18 (So, a +2 bonus)

Dwarven Short Sword DMG - 1D6+5

The confusion comes from the shield damage. Pg 60 says under the Shield W.P. "A shield can be used in one hand and a weapon in the other. +1 to strike with a shield (1D4 damage) at levels 4, 8, and 12. No bonus to strike when thrown. Hitting or butting somebody with a small or large shield does 2D4 damage."

Does this (1D4 damage) mean to add an extra 1D4 at 4th level making my shield 3d4+2 (I assume that I get the +2 for my strength bonus)

And Also
Dwarven Short Sword DMG - 1D6+5
Small Shield 2D4+2 That's a bit punchy if I'm understanding this right.

So, is this correct?

Does a shield do 3d4 SD @ 4th level when the char has WP Shield? Yes.

@ 1st level does a Dwarven Short Sword (with a +3 SD to damage) do 1d6+6 SD when adding in a 18 PS bonus of +3? Yes
@ 1st level does a Small Shield do 2d4+3 when paired with a 18 PS bonus of +3? Yes

[zombietots]

Thank you Drewkitty

[GoliathReturns]

I absolutely disagree with the 3d4.

IMO, reasonable reading of the rules does NOT say 3d4. The +1 @ levels is about the strike, not the damage.

The damage can be 1d4 or 2d4 depending on how you want to interpret. But no bonus to damage at level 4, or any other level.

--GS

[kiralon]

The confusion comes from the shield damage. Pg 60 says under the Shield W.P. "A shield can be used in one hand and a weapon in the other. +1 to strike with a shield (1D4 damage) at levels 4, 8, and 12. No bonus to strike when thrown. Hitting or butting somebody with a small or large shield does 2D4 damage."

The 1d4 damage isn't per the 4 level.
My reasoning is this.
The strike bonus has + in front of it, the shield damage doesn't.
The axe bonus damage at level 2 has a + in front of it, the shield damage doesn't.

As a thought experiment
If you read the bonus at each level you get it and changing what the 1d4 is in the sentence for levels 4, 8 and 12.
+1 to strike with a shield (1D4 damage) is what it would say at level 4
+1 to strike with a shield (1D6 damage) is what it would say at level 8
+1 to strike with a shield (1D8 damage) is what it would say at level 12

Would you say at level 12 it has +3 strike and does 1d8 damage
or +3 to strike and 1d4 + 1d6 + 1d8 damage.