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I want to get some feedback about an idea.

Going over the Cyber-Knights Psi-Sword damage and the many low cost alternatives and swords with silver plating I felt the Cyber-Knight did not have a lot of incentive to use their Psi-Sword.
The Cyber-Knight code forbids the missuse of their Psi-Sword:
"A true Knight will never use a Psi-Sword against a foe who is
unarmed or not equipped with an equivalent weapon, or who is not a
supernatural creature or dragon."

So I want to ask what could be the unbalancing game changing consequences of an idea I am toying around with:

The Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword inflicts S.D.C. damage plus strength bonus damage when it strikes an S.D.C. opponent.
However, when it strikes a M.D.C. opponent (or MD armor) it does its usuall 1d6 Mega-Damage (+1d6 @3rd, 6th, and 9th) AND also Physical Strength bonus damage in Mega Damage. For Example, a player is starting with a 1st level Cyber-Knight, their P.S. stat is 20 so they get a +5 to S.D.C. damage when punching or using a steel sword. Using their Psi-Sword, against and Mega Damage opponent would mean that they would do 1d6 +5 in Mega Damage if they struck their opponent who failed their parry or dodge.

Feed back?

darthauthor wrote:Going over the Cyber-Knights Psi-Sword damage and the many low cost alternatives and swords with silver plating I felt the Cyber-Knight did not have a lot of incentive to use their Psi-Sword.

And I think that is by design even going back to RMB days as even in a MD fight, there are far more effective options at lower levels in terms of damage output (you can also get physical ones that offer other benefits) until you reach Level 6 (and even here I'd say its so-so). Now RUE has benefits for a Master Psi level, but those would be rare and only really lower the level to get "decent" (4d6MD isn't anything to sneeze at in terms of MD melee weapons IMHO) and it takes awhile for a CK to get "decent", however a Mind Melter (or other TRUE Psi-Sword user) starts there at 4th Level and just outpaces the CK in terms of damage (14d6 by Level 15 vs 6d6 by Level 15, at Level 4 the CK is only doing 2d6MD to the MM's 4d6MD).

The advantages of the CK Psi-Sword come from:
1. can never really truly "disarm" a cyber-knight (aside from killing them or knocking them out, which sort of negates the need for disarming them, and even something like a Psi-Nullifer/Nega-Psyhic runs into the issue of how to deal with a negative ISP from them against a no-cost Psi-Sword that text indicates isn't entirely ISP fueled ((Chi is brought up, but I'm to lazy at the moment to get the exact quote)) and this is another topic). 2. The Psi-Sword doesn't run out of energy (like a Vibro-blade should or most MD melee weapons).
3. while I agree with the statement from their CODE, nothing in the CODE prevents them from using it to potentially "de-escalate" a situation.
4. it can be drawn/activated as a "free" action (at least in RMB, that might have changed with SoT/RUE), something you can't really do with a physical item (generally), something that the TRUE Psi-sword cannot match (15sec required).
5. no carrying/encumbrance penalty (mass/weight and volume)
6. for RUE, the ability to reshape the weapon to something more appropriate (still melee) and to an extent I don't think even a TRUE Psi-sword user can duplicate the range of options

darthauthor wrote:The Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword inflicts S.D.C. damage plus strength bonus damage when it strikes an S.D.C. opponent.

As an optional use I don't have an issue overall with the concept, though I would drop the PS damage bonus since this is an energy weapon (HU2E pg98 under High Tech Melee Weapons Section under Energy Weapons does state you don't add PS damage bonus, I don't know if it gets a mention in Rifts given just about everything is MD and the PS SDC boost is useless there).

I feel the Cyber-Knight Psi-Sword is kind of a grey area in some things.
I have asked questions and gotten different answers from different people.
Testing and defining the limits of things is kind of interesting to me but something things they just say "IF you feel that way then its home brew / house rules."

Questions like, if the Psi-Sword is energy if someone casts immunity to energy are they invulnerable to the psi-Sword?

Others insist it is FORCE.

I asked someone about whether or not a character could use their Psi-Sword to start a fire or hear water with instead of building. They replied that the Psi-Sword is not a "Light-Saber" and does not generate heat like a light-saber would.

I asked about changing the "Psi-Sword" up to make it into tools (with no moving parts; and the Cyber-Knight had to remain in contact with it at all times) like a mining pick (or pick-axe) or a shoval.
Different answer but the strongest voices felt like the cyber-knight's shouldn't be so swiss-army-knife that a cyber-knight ought to be able to do it.
ONE melee weapon.
Then maybe after leveling up a switch to a completely different weapon they are "stuck" without being able to go back to a Psi-Sword until next level. Very inflexible.
Also, asked about heat transfer, like could you use a Psi-Sword to cook with.
I think the player had a trickster mage and wanted to play a cyber-knight with a frying pan for a psi-sword. Had read the article on Mega Chef

Eventually, my mind turned back to these things and the Psi-Sword. Read a few character from the War on Tolkeen and realized every Cyber-knight in the book uses some other sword like a rune sword or magic sword or dang near any thing and everything but their signature Psi-Sword. I started to ask myself, if I was a cybe-knight at 1st level what would I use?
Probably the weapon with greatest accuracy and damage.
At higher levels like 6+ I read and believe, as a Cyber-Knight, I'd have a TW sword like Light Blade or something. Trying to do at least 1d4 x10 or at least 6d6 MD.

Being Cyber-Knight who got no smart reason to use his psi-sword feel like a jedi knight who uses a heavy blaster rifle instead of his Light-Saber.
Feels like it defeats the reason a player would want to play a Cyber-Knight.

Using a sword when rifles exist, isn’t a great idea.
Melee weapons in Rifts should be backup weapons, or for special circumstance.

Killer Cyborg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:55 pm Using a sword when rifles exist, isn’t a great idea.
Melee weapons in Rifts should be backup weapons, or for special circumstance.

As a general rule I would say you are correct, but in fantasy game like this it does come down to rule of cool. The problem I have always had is while the MDC of armor has increased and the damage from range weapons has increased melee weapons have largely stayed flat. As anyone who has ever treated knife and bullet wounds and the knife is just as bad, sometimes worse. The limit for melee weapons should be the lack of range but the damage should be comparable.

darthauthor wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 3:23 pm I want to get some feedback about an idea.

Going over the Cyber-Knights Psi-Sword damage and the many low cost alternatives and swords with silver plating I felt the Cyber-Knight did not have a lot of incentive to use their Psi-Sword.
The Cyber-Knight code forbids the missuse of their Psi-Sword:
"A true Knight will never use a Psi-Sword against a foe who is
unarmed or not equipped with an equivalent weapon, or who is not a
supernatural creature or dragon."

So I want to ask what could be the unbalancing game changing consequences of an idea I am toying around with:

The Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword inflicts S.D.C. damage plus strength bonus damage when it strikes an S.D.C. opponent.
However, when it strikes a M.D.C. opponent (or MD armor) it does its usuall 1d6 Mega-Damage (+1d6 @3rd, 6th, and 9th) AND also Physical Strength bonus damage in Mega Damage. For Example, a player is starting with a 1st level Cyber-Knight, their P.S. stat is 20 so they get a +5 to S.D.C. damage when punching or using a steel sword. Using their Psi-Sword, against and Mega Damage opponent would mean that they would do 1d6 +5 in Mega Damage if they struck their opponent who failed their parry or dodge.

Feed back?

As to the original post I always let the cyberknight very the damage up to its max, even allowing SDC and I never found it to unbalance the game. To the contrary MDC melee weapons were so low damage that you could triple most of them before there is any real imbalance

Warshield 73,

Thank you.
You answer seems detailed and straight forward.

Very Respectfully,

Brett

Warshield73 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:08 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:55 pm Using a sword when rifles exist, isn’t a great idea.
Melee weapons in Rifts should be backup weapons, or for special circumstance.

As a general rule I would say you are correct, but in fantasy game like this it does come down to rule of cool.

Disagree.
The "rule of cool" is neither.

But we don't have to agree on everything, and your opinion here IS pretty popular.

The problem I have always had is while the MDC of armor has increased and the damage from range weapons has increased melee weapons have largely stayed flat. As anyone who has ever treated knife and bullet wounds and the knife is just as bad, sometimes worse. The limit for melee weapons should be the lack of range but the damage should be comparable.

Actually, after Rifts introduced the Supernatural PS Damage Tables, AND ruled that Supernatural PS damage gets applied to at least some melee weapons, that drastically boosted the damage potential of melee weapons.
Not to mention stuff like magic sword damage increasing from 4d6 for a TW Flaming Sword to 1d6x10 or 2d4x10 for different FoM TW swords, and the increased proliferation of Psi-Swords.

I don't entirely disagree, though, which is why in my games I ruled that the CS Psi-Gauntlet which can be used to make a 2d6 MD Psi-Sword (Psyscape) has hit the black market in forms where the same PPE/ISP cost can ADD 2d6 MD to an existing Psi-Sword for characters who have one.
That boost helps balance the armor power creep a bit, but requires special equipment to offset the boost.

Guns are a weird mix because the per-shot damage has increased dramatically (3d6 MD highest energy pistol damage in RMB, compared to 5d5 or even 6d6 MD for pistol or pistol-like weapons in later books), but at the same time the abandoning of the original Burst/Spray rules resulted in lower potential damage overall.
Back when the C-14 Firebreather could do a long burst for 3d6x5 MD in a single attack, ranged weapons were even more deadly, although they also used more ammunition.
This doesn't negate your point; just making a side note.

darthauthor wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 3:23 pmSo I want to ask what could be the unbalancing game changing consequences of an idea I am toying around with:

The Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword inflicts S.D.C. damage plus strength bonus damage when it strikes an S.D.C. opponent.
However, when it strikes a M.D.C. opponent (or MD armor) it does its usuall 1d6 Mega-Damage (+1d6 @3rd, 6th, and 9th) AND also Physical Strength bonus damage in Mega Damage. For Example, a player is starting with a 1st level Cyber-Knight, their P.S. stat is 20 so they get a +5 to S.D.C. damage when punching or using a steel sword. Using their Psi-Sword, against and Mega Damage opponent would mean that they would do 1d6 +5 in Mega Damage if they struck their opponent who failed their parry or dodge.

Feed back?

I've actually had the same basic idea myself, and have long thought that more magic/psionic weapons should operate this kind of way; SDC vs SDC foes, MD vs MDC foes.

BUT the Psi-Sword is only semi-tangible, and counts more as an Energy Melee Weapon than as a physical weapon:

RGMG 32
With a psi-sword, flaming sword, or energy sword, only the weapon damage applies, any PS damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.

BUT I believe other bonuses like the Fencing skill DO apply, and perhaps more importantly generally when converting SDC magic weapons to MDC worlds like RIfts, the MD inflicted is 1/2 the SDC damage.
So the reverse could apply: a Psi-Sword that does 1d6 MD could logically inflict 2d6 SDC against SDC foes, a psi-sword that inflicts 6d6 MD would inflict 12d6 SDC, etc.

Of course, if you wanted to ignore that and just have psi-swords use PS bonuses anyway in your game, for SDC attacks?
I don't know how unbalancing it would be.
Probably not very, except maybe against vampires or other magical critters that use HP.

darthauthor wrote:Being Cyber-Knight who got no smart reason to use his psi-sword feel like a jedi knight who uses a heavy blaster rifle instead of his Light-Saber.
Feels like it defeats the reason a player would want to play a Cyber-Knight.

But is the CK Psi-Sword intended to be their primary weapon or something closer to a "ceremonial" weapon? And why do you think this? The CK gets 2 MODERN WP and 2 ANCIENT WP (and +3 of non-restricted category of choice from the Related Skills selection requirements for WP) that are selectable at creation, they don't get WP Sword as pre-selected either which suggests the weapon is closer to "ceremonial" than primary.

Further damaging the idea, it is supposed to be their primary weapon is as a 1d6MD (@Level 1) weapon it isn't a great melee MD weapon (it's equal to a Vibro-Knife, granted it has better reach than a V-Knife but still). A CK has to wait until Level 3 to get competitive with a V-blade (2d4 or 2d6 being the common ones) and Level 6 to match the higher end V-blades (3d6) damage output and I would suspect the CK isn't going to get those levels relying on their Psi-Sword. There are other options for MD melee weapons (magical and non) that are comparable to V-Blades in terms of damage output to (IIRC).

Notes: CK have a 9% change of being Master Psychics which would give them a damage boost at Level 2 resulting in quicker damage advancement. Fencing Skill and things like the Amaki TW-Psi-Blade exist, but like the Master Psychic aren't going/intended to be "standard" so I am not considering them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Of course, if you wanted to ignore that and just have psi-swords use PS bonuses anyway in your game, for SDC attacks?
I don't know how unbalancing it would be.
Probably not very, except maybe against vampires or other magical critters that use HP.

That's going to come down to what the PS bonus looks like which will vary by character so I could see characters that could be potentially more unbalancing than others.

A Human CK is going to look like on Average 3d6 (base) +1d4 (OCC bonus) +4 (OCC skills) + 0 (more technically depending on what/how many physical skills they take, and they have to take 2). So, assuming average rolls the CK would have a PS of 11+2+4+0=17 for a +3 Damage Bonus. They'd be doing +50% damage at Level 1 on max roll for damage, but with each Psi-Sword bonus level they would be doing correspondingly less extra damage.

A Human CK with "are your dice loaded" max Rolls everywhere would be PS of 18 (base) + 12 (bonus attribute rolls) + 4 (OCC skills) +0 (more technically depending on what/number of physical skills taken must take 2) =34 for +19 Damage bonus. That's more than 300% damage bonus at Level 1 on max roll for damage, as "average" the Psi Bonus levels will reduce this when earned, but at Level 1 they are fighting as if they are Level 9 in terms of total damage output.

So, depending on what the PS bonus actually looks like, you might end up with a CK Psi-Sword (under the SDC or MDC house rule) that can match/beat other SDC melee weapons at Level 1 (which top out at 4d6 SDC/HP damage IINM). Though if the CK has the choice of picking up a physical version or using a CK-Psi-weapon version, at level 1 in terms of damage output it will favor the physical item in many cases. And the physical version could come with other added benefits (better balance/sharpness like in PF2E). Depending on the weapon considered the CK Psi-version likely would have to be higher level (3/6/9) to match a given weapon and even higher to better it (and ignoring things like better balance or sharpness).