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So the spell Negate Poison/Toxin from Rifts Ultimate Edition page 203

I want to police its use correctly.

Do player characters and NPCs get to use it on poisonous food and eat it without bad consequences to their health?

So, for example, if they thing the glass in from of them has poison or drugs in it can they cast the spell and drink it without the poison or knock out drugs knocking them out?

Would it work on food or drink with the "Sleep" spell put on it?

Yes, it would work for poisoned/drugged food/drink preventing those substances from influencing the character.

However, I am going to say No in regard to enchantments like the Sleep spell. The description does not consider the use of enchanted food/drink (like Sleep Spell or Farie Food) which leads me to think it would be no. Plus there are two defenses against the Sleep Spell enchantment outside of the Saving Throw (there is a narrow time window that could be "managed", plus the required volume of consumption w/n that time window).

darthauthor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:14 am So the spell Negate Poison/Toxin from Rifts Ultimate Edition page 203

I want to police its use correctly.

Do player characters and NPCs get to use it on poisonous food and eat it without bad consequences to their health?

So, for example, if they thing the glass in from of them has poison or drugs in it can they cast the spell and drink it without the poison or knock out drugs knocking them out?

I don't think so, no, but on re-reading the spell description I can say it is not definite. My take on it, is that the spell is cast on somebody - self or other by touch - who has ingested poison/toxins, not on an object with poison in it or poison itself. The spell talks about negating poison in the bloodstream, though I concede it does not specifically say you can't negate poison elsewhere. That is my opinion on it.
To negate poison/toxins in a drink that has been laced with poison you can use the purification spell.
To drink poison/toxins without ill effect you can use the impervious to poison spell.

darthauthor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:14 am Would it work on food or drink with the "Sleep" spell put on it?

No. A magic spell is not a poison or a toxin.

Thanks Soldier of Od

I am kind of scratching my head on this spell.
Poison rarely makes it into my games but when it does it feels like an ALL or NOTHING saving throw.
It made me think about, "How is this spells supposed to work?"
Typically the round a guy is poisoned is the one he has to make the save in or he's dead or something.
"What is the use of this spell on a guy who died because he failed his saving throw?"

Or does the GM get to say if the spell is cast in the same minute or round as the failed save the poison has no effect?

The spell seems kind of POINTLESS if it is TOO LATE to use it on someone who has already failed their saving throw.
While those who make their save have NO NEED of it.

IF all it can do is treat those suffering from the mildest of poison problems it seems too impractical to be useful.
Food Poisoning?
Just Googled, the CDC estimates that each year roughly 1 out of 6 Americans (or 48 million people) gets it.
So it is a story driven / Man vs Nature remedy.

Black Widow Spider Bite?
-Black widow spider bites can be dangerous, but fatal bites are rare. Small children, seniors, and those with health problems before the bite are most susptible.

-Most scorpion stings are mild and not life-threatening.

The most practical use I could think for this spell was eating food that is poisonous because it is the ONLY food to eat or you'll starve.
The second is the complicated one off situation of drinking a drink you know is poison, which you (Soldier of Od) point out is easy to deal with Immunity to poison.

I guess I didn't know how it worked.
If you are poisoned, and you get someone to cast immunity to poison on you, after you have been poisoned, and you failed your save, does that save you?

Snake Bite?
Snake bites can be fatal if not treated quickly. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), around 81,410 to 137,880 people die each year

darthauthor wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:13 am Typically the round a guy is poisoned is the one he has to make the save in or he's dead or something.

That's one way to treat poison in an RPG. However, there's no reason you can't have even a fatal poison work over a longer period of time (e.g. - minutes, hours, or even days). That's how most poisons in the real world work. There are very few things that will actually kill you within 15 seconds (i.e. - 1 round) of consumption that are also subtle enough to be concealed in something like food or wine. If I recall correctly, it takes about half an hour for a lethal dose of arsenic to kill you.

Play it that way, and this spell has a lot of utility. Yes, I would rule that it could be used after a Saving Throw has been failed. I would rule that it could also be used to negate deleterious effects from even a successful save. For example, some poison that does XDX damage on a failed save could potentially be reduced.

darthauthor wrote:Poison rarely makes it into my games but when it does it feels like an ALL or NOTHING saving throw

That's not surprising really given how little attention it gets in Rifts, IINM its pretty much confined to a few Cyber/Bionic Systems and the rare creature. Off hand I know HU and PF2E main books have poison/toxin options that don't fall into those two categories (and HU has C&P modified versions of the Cyber/Bionics).

darthauthor wrote:Typically the round a guy is poisoned is the one he has to make the save in or he's dead or something.

I agree that is the easiest way to implement the Saving Throw (get it out of the way), but poisons/toxins can require a windup time. The Cybernetic Weapon "Wrist Needle & Drug Dispenser" (Bionics SB pg93) has Paralysis, generic Poison, and Tranquilizer/Sleep agents for the weapon require a wind-up time ("1d4 melees") before taking effect. PF2E's Witchbane contact poison (pg265) is damage per melee round for multiple melees, though this is the only example I could find off hand in PF2E (I don't have many books here), and pg264 has a list of Ingestion Poisons that would take "2-8 melees to take effect", and some poisons & toxins in PF2E (pg264-5) don't necessarily do a single hit of "damage" but instead inflict "penalties" for a given duration.

Also keep in mind that Alcohol (and other substances) could be considered a Poison/Toxin, allowing a character to temporarily ignore the effects of alcohol. Carbon Monoxide is another example (it does get into the blood stream), and it could also vary by species (humans might not find O2 poisonous normally, but another D-Bee might).

Bite/stinger attacks can also be a source of poison. Rifts WB14 pg161 has bite/stinger attacks from Scorpions & snakes, and each of them is damage per multiple melees. Off hand I don't know if these are the only examples or not (I suspect not, but likely rare) as these are the ones that came to mind readily and I don't feel reviewing my library to look for creatures and poison attacks (note to self I really need to add creatures to my database).

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:00 am Also keep in mind that Alcohol (and other substances) could be considered a Poison/Toxin, allowing a character to temporarily ignore the effects of alcohol. Carbon Monoxide is another example (it does get into the blood stream), and it could also vary by species (humans might not find O2 poisonous normally, but another D-Bee might).

This is a really good point. It also made me think of toxins primarily used for interrogation or mind control, and hallucinatory drugs. What kind of uber-LSD would the Splugorth manufacture for sale across the Megaverse?

Shadow Logon and kjd22c,

I like your creativity!

kjd22c wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:46 am

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:00 am Also keep in mind that Alcohol (and other substances) could be considered a Poison/Toxin, allowing a character to temporarily ignore the effects of alcohol. Carbon Monoxide is another example (it does get into the blood stream), and it could also vary by species (humans might not find O2 poisonous normally, but another D-Bee might).

This is a really good point. It also made me think of toxins primarily used for interrogation or mind control, and hallucinatory drugs. What kind of uber-LSD would the Splugorth manufacture for sale across the Megaverse?

I'm not sure the Splugorth would result to such "primitive" methods given WB2 and WB21's various bio-weapons and other magic/tech examples in the books. I'm not saying the Splugorth could not use such methods, just that it seems unlikely/unnecessary as standard operating procedure. They do have Zombitrons (WB2 pg116-7) or Mind Slug (WB2 pg116), never mind (Bio-wizard) variations they might have of them (GM creations). They also have the Psi-Interrogator (WB2 pg120). I wouldn't rule out magic potions for the same purposes instead of drugs given their heavy interest in magic.

That was more a rhetorical question. But, sure, the Splugorth probably wouldn't use biological/chemical toxins, and would rely on something supernatural/magical. That this spell would have reduced, if any, efficacy.

Keep in mind that many spells/powers for Rifts were originally created for other settings like Palladium Fantasy.
While I don't have offhand knowledge of many poisons in Rifts specifically that have delayed onsets or long durations, they're not uncommon in Palladium Fantasy and other settings.

PFRPG2 264-265

Ingestive Poisons
All are sold in single doses, and generally require 2-8 melees to take effect.


Contact Poison: Numbstrike A blend of toxins that does 1d4 damage and causes the victim to temporarily lose feeling in his hands or extremities where the poison touched bare flesh...

Contact Poison: Gutwrench: A toxin that usually doesn't cause serious damage, but causes a seirous headache and nausea for 4d6 minutes...

Contact Poison: Wart Callo
...The blotchy rash lasts for 1d4 days...

Stalsis
...takes effect in 3d4 melee rounds...
The effects last 1d4 hours.

Basilisk's Eye:
...Paralysis lasts 2d4 minutes.

And there's a whole section on Drugs as well, which the spell might apply to.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Keep in mind that many spells/powers for Rifts were originally created for other settings like Palladium Fantasy.

It isn't just spells/powers being created for PF or another line. Cybernetics/Bionics (and the Robot RCC) are largely cribbed from one or more SDC "modern" universes, toss in psionics, and (at least for RMB mainbook Rifts) generic SDC gear section is largely a C&P from 1E RT mainbook (and I would not be surprised if it went back before the Robotech licence).

Rifts has drugs primarily found in WB5 and WB10 (I want to say MercOps has some), and poison/toxin examples (aside from the cyber) can be found in WB21 (pg36 Midguard Serpent of Asgard) and WB26 (pg43-4) that have individual entries, plus there are bound to be creatures with them (sorry I don't have more examples here other than the one from NW in previous post). Herbology (WB3) might have something that can work (I forget off hand), though here a case might exist they fall under magic potions and not "cosplaying science" (PF2E has magic gear that could be this to).

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:11 am

Killer Cyborg wrote:Keep in mind that many spells/powers for Rifts were originally created for other settings like Palladium Fantasy.

It isn't just spells/powers being created for PF or another line. Cybernetics/Bionics (and the Robot RCC) are largely cribbed from one or more SDC "modern" universes, toss in psionics, and (at least for RMB mainbook Rifts) generic SDC gear section is largely a C&P from 1E RT mainbook (and I would not be surprised if it went back before the Robotech licence).

Rifts has drugs primarily found in WB5 and WB10 (I want to say MercOps has some), and poison/toxin examples (aside from the cyber) can be found in WB21 (pg36 Midguard Serpent of Asgard) and WB26 (pg43-4) that have individual entries, plus there are bound to be creatures with them (sorry I don't have more examples here other than the one from NW in previous post). Herbology (WB3) might have something that can work (I forget off hand), though here a case might exist they fall under magic potions and not "cosplaying science" (PF2E has magic gear that could be this to).

Good points!

Also, I'd allow the spell to work for tear gas (which is pretty common in the main book), and on the effects of alcohol or other recreational drugs.

Killer Cyborg,

Very Creative!