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Looking for some help finding information in PFRPG books. Are there any vampire intelligences on the Palladium world? Is there a region were they dominate or a book where they are mentioned?

I did a quick search through my books but couldn't find anything. Even just which book has it would help.

There's only one V.I. in PF, and that's the deity, Vald-Tegor. He actively works to make sure no other VI gets a hold anywhere. You can find more about him in the book Dragons & Gods.

For vampires in general, look in the Western Empire. That book details them (although not as well as a lot of us would like), and that's also the location they seem to have the biggest population (although, if memory serves, there's a few in Timiro).

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GS
Hrmm.. now I'm eyeballing finishing my updated Gersidi...

In Dragons & Gods, it does state: "Vampire Note: Erick and I plan on releasing a sourcebook specifically dedicated to the vampires of the Palladium World. That book will contain in-depth information about the undead and their activities. In the meanwhile, players may want to take a peek at Rifts® Vampire Kingdoms for some insights into these inhuman monsters."

I see they never have released said book, but I guess you could also check out Rifts Vampire Kingdoms for info...

GoliathReturns wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:20 pmThere's only one V.I. in PF, and that's the deity, Vald-Tegor. He actively works to make sure no other VI gets a hold anywhere. You can find more about him in the book Dragons & Gods.

For vampires in general, look in the Western Empire. That book details them (although not as well as a lot of us would like), and that's also the location they seem to have the biggest population (although, if memory serves, there's a few in Timiro).

--
GS
Hrmm.. now I'm eyeballing finishing my updated Gersidi...

Dragons and Gods, that's what I was looking for. I found some of the stuff in WE PDF but searching for the word "vampire" in a gaming book doesn't help much.

This god and his pantheon is what I was looking for I just couldn't remember which book it was in.

Eric42 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:59 pmIn Dragons & Gods, it does state: "Vampire Note: Erick and I plan on releasing a sourcebook specifically dedicated to the vampires of the Palladium World. That book will contain in-depth information about the undead and their activities. In the meanwhile, players may want to take a peek at Rifts® Vampire Kingdoms for some insights into these inhuman monsters."

I see they never have released said book, but I guess you could also check out Rifts Vampire Kingdoms for info...

RIfts I know almost backward and forward at this point so I was already pulling from that but I wanted some flavor text for the scenario I am writing, religious texts about a heroic vampire god that can sucker some hapless players. PB has always had a problem releasing promised books but I have to imagine that this is one of the ones that fell out due to Erick's death.

Thanks both of you for the help.

Land of the Damned #2 has Vampires (ancient 2ndary) and assortment of (additional) undead types (not sure about LotD#1). Not sure if that will help or if it might have included aspects of what KS and EW where planning.

I see Vald-Tegor as managing the population of vampires somewhat like a game warden... he wants to be sure that there are enough predators in the preserve to keep the prey at reasonable levels, but also wants to be sure that there are not too many. So he creates new master vampires only when necessary, and is willing to punish those that try to overpopulate. Like Kirgi, he draws a lot of power from the prayers of those seeking his protection.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:30 am I see Vald-Tegor as managing the population of vampires somewhat like a game warden... he wants to be sure that there are enough predators in the preserve to keep the prey at reasonable levels, but also wants to be sure that there are not too many. So he creates new master vampires only when necessary, and is willing to punish those that try to overpopulate. Like Kirgi, he draws a lot of power from the prayers of those seeking his protection.

I see the game warden analogy as spot on. Because he's making sure nobody else (no other V.I.) is adding extra predators in, too.

Meanwhile, he's got the chimpanzees (humans, elves, dwarves) bringing him bananas (worship) to thank him for keeping vampires in check, while the vampires bring him steaks (more worship), thanking him for letting them exist and feed.

All things considered, the Palladium World could have had a LOT worse situation with the vampires. They lucked out with a smart vampire intelligence

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GS
What makes the green grass grow?

GoliathReturns wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:25 pm

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 10:30 am I see Vald-Tegor as managing the population of vampires somewhat like a game warden... he wants to be sure that there are enough predators in the preserve to keep the prey at reasonable levels, but also wants to be sure that there are not too many. So he creates new master vampires only when necessary, and is willing to punish those that try to overpopulate. Like Kirgi, he draws a lot of power from the prayers of those seeking his protection.

I see the game warden analogy as spot on. Because he's making sure nobody else (no other V.I.) is adding extra predators in, too.

Meanwhile, he's got the chimpanzees (humans, elves, dwarves) bringing him bananas (worship) to thank him for keeping vampires in check, while the vampires bring him steaks (more worship), thanking him for letting them exist and feed.

All things considered, the Palladium World could have had a LOT worse situation with the vampires. They lucked out with a smart vampire intelligence.

I didn't have time to look but are all the vamps in the Western Empire his or are some of these incursions that he is stomping out.

Beyond mortals I think this philosophy really protects him from gods of light. I mean if you kill him and his vamps die who is coming in to replace him? Add to that he does keep other VI's out... On the idea of dealing with the worst first he ranks really low.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:16 amLand of the Damned #2 has Vampires (ancient 2ndary) and assortment of (additional) undead types (not sure about LotD#1). Not sure if that will help or if it might have included aspects of what KS and EW where planning.

Are those secondaries Vald-Tegor's? They have been there a long time so they can't be human so what species were they originally?

This really brings a question to my mind about How many dimensions can a Vampire Intelligence operate in? but I moved that to a new thread.

Warshield73 wrote:Are those secondaries Vald-Tegor's?

LotD#2 pg142 scattered about but:
-"Many a vampire freely served the Old Ones"
-"who once served the Old Ones or who were scooped up at the end of the Chaos War and dumped in the Land of Eternal Torment"

It isn't clear who the Secondaries are aligned with in terms of VIs, and the VIs might have been aligned with the Old Ones (or for all I know the Old Ones could create Vampires).

I should also clarify, "True Vampires" here "are all believed to be Secondary Vampires" giving a GM some wiggle room room for there to be Master and Wild types. Though which VI they serve isn't clear, and Vald-Tegor might be content to leave this region of the world alone as these beings can't leave (LotD#2 pg34: "so that no creature dwelling with it could ever leave"). There are also sources of Vampires not reliant on a a VI...

The Mortification Curse (LotD#2) can essentially create new vampires, which have no VI (but are trapped in the LotD). The Necromancy spell "Retrun from the Grave" (Rifts Book of Magic pg198-9, off hand I don't know if it's in PF titles) can also create a Vampire, equal to a Master Vampire. What is interesting about the Necromancy Spell is that "This magic is one of the only ways for someone to become a member of the undead (equal to a Master Vampire) without being reliant on some other source of power, such as a Vampire Intelligence." The Necromancy spell doesn't clarify if the subject can create a Secondary/Wild Vampire or not (not sure if this is due to editing in the BoM or not), but it seems to establish that Vampires aren't purely sourced from VIs.

Warshield73 wrote:They have been there a long time so they can't be human so what species were they originally?

There aren't any (vampire) NPCs in the book IINM. What the stat block writeup says though is "Size and Weight: Varies, generally human".

If we assume that the bulk of those vampires aren't Megaversal Immigrants (or just a bad Copy & Paste job), text does allow for Humans to have possibly participated in the Chaos War... If we look at PF2E main book on pg279 it talks about the "The Battle of Gods" Era, which the author reveals included humans in a meta-gaming format (in-game the race isn't known). That difference in time between TBoG and CW is 10,000years on the timeline on pg281, though humans don't reappear for another 70,000years (and 6,000years after this beginning to have a world presence). There is also talk of human civilizations being subject to cycles of cataclysm and rebirth (pg288), so it is possible that TBoG humans aren't the 1st "incarnation" on the Palladium World (though here TBoG humans are considered the first, though for LotD2 vampire stat block to work... and TBoG humans would need time to develop which could push them back into the CW-era given the timeline between TBoG and when humans began to have a world presence).

I was actually thinking along the lines that these vamps could just be created from the Old Ones. At the very least Netosa could probably create them. An alternative is that a VI that served the old ones created them and has been locked away like the Old Ones themselves.

As for non-aligned secondaries, I have seen a few in the books but they seem to be the exception not the rule.

The information in the stat block seems to be fairly generic so I think the secondaries in this location are likely to be at least elves maybe even some of the dying races.

non-aligned likely are rare when you get down to it, and its possible Palladium left it blank for the GM to "customize" which VI (if any) they are aligned with.

What I found interesting was that bit in Necromancy about that it doesn't have to be a VI that can transform one into a vampire and there might be other beings (or processes).

I reviewed Vald-Tegor in D&G (pg127-30) and found a few bits that might or might not be relevant here:
-Priest Power #3 "Control over Lesser Vampire" mentions the usual Secondary/Wild being types it can work on, but also mentions it can't work on VI (no surprise), Master, and something I don't think I've seen before "vampire lords" (who are they?) that doesn't seem to be addressed again (AFAIK).
-from his Minions info: "With the exception of a few that have slipped in from other worlds, all the vampires on the Palladium World are under his direct, or indirect control." Now few is relative and vague so in terms of hard numbers there could still be a sizeable population, plus how does the "indirect" control work?
-the Note following Doctrine for his Cult worshipers mentions: "there is a thriving sect in the Land of the Damned." So its possible the Vampires here could be related to him (when he was a pure VI?), or are under his "indirect" control (what ever that is supposed to mean), or qualify as the few to slip in from other worlds. This also forces a revision to the idea he just leaves the region alone.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 8:25 am -from his Minions info: "With the exception of a few that have slipped in from other worlds, all the vampires on the Palladium World are under his direct, or indirect control." Now few is relative and vague so in terms of hard numbers there could still be a sizeable population, plus how does the "indirect" control work?

At a guess? "Indirect control" is mostly wild and secondary vampires who were made by another VI, but give fealty to him.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 8:25 amnon-aligned likely are rare when you get down to it, and its possible Palladium left it blank for the GM to "customize" which VI (if any) they are aligned with.

I think you're right that PB kept in general so that the GM could decide how to use them, I just wish that they had given a few more details and maybe even some suggestions of which dying races might be represented.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 8:25 amWhat I found interesting was that bit in Necromancy about that it doesn't have to be a VI that can transform one into a vampire and there might be other beings (or processes).

I think it is mainly processes/rituals that can turn people in mainly secondary vamps but maybe even a master without a VI. I also remember that there is a master vamp serving a VI that is looking for a way to transform himself into a VI to gain more power. I think there are also like godling level beings that have some vamp in them. Again, I think these would be rare and I have a feeling that true VIs go after these fakes with a vengeance.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 8:25 amI reviewed Vald-Tegor in D&G (pg127-30) and found a few bits that might or might not be relevant here:
-Priest Power #3 "Control over Lesser Vampire" mentions the usual Secondary/Wild being types it can work on, but also mentions it can't work on VI (no surprise), Master, and something I don't think I've seen before "vampire lords" (who are they?) that doesn't seem to be addressed again (AFAIK).

Not sure what vampire lord is. Maybe they mean an old or high level secondary vamp or something like that. The ability of his priests to control lesser vamps is pretty impressive and no doubt drives a lot of his worship.

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 8:25 am-the Note following Doctrine for his Cult worshipers mentions: "there is a thriving sect in the Land of the Damned." So its possible the Vampires here could be related to him (when he was a pure VI?), or are under his "indirect" control (what ever that is supposed to mean), or qualify as the few to slip in from other worlds. This also forces a revision to the idea he just leaves the region alone.

I viewed this as just mortals in the area praying to him for protection from the hordes of undead and most of those ancient secondaries are probably from the service of the old ones or those created by those that served the old ones.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 12:46 pm

ShadowLogan wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 8:25 am -from his Minions info: "With the exception of a few that have slipped in from other worlds, all the vampires on the Palladium World are under his direct, or indirect control." Now few is relative and vague so in terms of hard numbers there could still be a sizeable population, plus how does the "indirect" control work?

At a guess? "Indirect control" is mostly wild and secondary vampires who were made by another VI, but give fealty to him.

I have a feeling that "indirect control" is just Vald saying to the very few vamps that are not his "do what I say or I will baste you in garlic, wrap you and silver and cook you in the morning sunlight". Either that or it refers to undead that are not traditional vampires.

Overall, between LotD books, D&G and WE the place of the undead, especially traditional vamps, is pretty interesting.

I found the vampires to be a hot mess and made the VI vamps out to be a different race of vamps to the demonic vamps, which has the lord/master vampire and secondaries, where they tougher as they get older but the VI vamps were used for more of a BTS feel, and made them more necroscope horror style.

<cough> kaash <cough>

Vampire Intelligences are great when your PCs definitely killed the bad guy you're not done with, yet.

There's room to import wampyrs from Nightbane. That would give you an independent bloodsucker if necessary.

I prefer the Wampyr to the Deluded and Heroic Vampires we got in the revised WB. I would also like to see a more traditional vampire, not connected to VIs for games like BTS and HU but Wampyr is close enough especially alongside the other options we have.

One thing I think is missing is something for those who survived slow kill (got only two bites) or those released from being a mind slave of a vamp. Something that makes these people real threats to vampires.

I'm of the opinion that the best way to manage vampires is two ways. One is the classic Vampire as seen in Western Empire and Vampire Kingdoms and Nightbane (fantastic source of vampire goodness), the other is Rifter 49. This way you can simulate multiple species of Vampires, and wit 49 you can create the Cursed Vampire variant as some gods have the ability to create Vampires.

I've entertained some ideas about vampires. Why do later generation vampires sometimes become more independent? My theory is that VIs reproduce by a sort of budding process. Independent vampires eventually consume so much life and PPE that they undergo a transformation, first into a super vampire (vampire lord maybe?) and later into a VI.

It may be that VIs were not the original source of vampires, but vampires are in fact demonic, and it is an evolved vampire that became the original VI.

There are just so many vampiric beings and so many types of vampirism that I don't think you can have just one source. Even if you don't use the ones in Rifter 49 there are just too many types of vamp. As for origins, in Palladium, not just in PFRPG but the entire megaverse, I tend to take everything back to the Old Ones. Go back to the Age of Chaos and who did they serve that's vampires, demons, deevils, all of them.

As for reproduction, I tend to think it is more like division. A master vamp discovers the necessary rituals or such to become a VI and if he succeeds he might take with him all he created. This is not a question unique to the VIs though, there is a discussion about Splugorth reproduction which is even more complicated.

In the book Garden of the Gods, there is a group of vampires pretending to be ghost knights. The vampire intelligence that spawned them is hiding beneath the Garden of the Gods. So, in canon there are two vampire intelligences you can have fun with, with daddy Vlad-T being the other.