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So I love Europe. Triax 1&2 are great, the three Russia book are also awesome. All that said while I love parts of Mindwerks (The Angles and Mindwerks itself primarily) it feels a little dated now. What I think we need is two more World Books.

The first book: Brodkin & Mindwerks with the sacking of Warsaw and Angel of death acquiring Triax tech and assembly lines on top of her plans to wipe out the Gargoyle Empire I feel it’s time to extensively revisit and expand on the weapons, cyborgs, crazies and other tech that the angel of Death has developed and produced for her minions. I love the concept of the Psinet Crazies but I think they need to be flushed out better (possibly with 3 or 4 formal Crazy Variants maybe a Burster or Zapper Crazy). I could see Angel having satellite bases for creating human crazies (picture crazies released throughout Europe and Russia that unknowingly transmit everything they see and hear to Mindwerks. What does she do with the Gargoyles that surrender to her? I think the possibilities are endless

The second book: Gargoyle Empire with the Empire being split and Warsaw being taken from them they are definitely on the losing side. But in one of the books it talks about Splugorth lending aid either openly or preferably secretly to keep their favorite war going. This would a great opportunity to both expand the tech that the Gargoyles are using and add in things like new Bioborgs and other Splugorth fun. I can easily see the Gargoyle Emperor handing over rebels and prisoners for the Splugorth to play with in exchange for Troop upgrades and slave troops. Again the possibilities are endless.

Like I said before I love Mindwerks but the supplement to me was scattered it had forty pages of Mindwerks itself (could have easily been 140) than a scattering of other things that felt like filler. This is why I think we need a new book that deals only with Mindwerks , the Brodkil (who I also think need expanding) and their minion’s.

On a side note I wish some game stores in the greater Detroit area carried Palladium Products

Greetings fellow fan of the European Rifts books. From a metastory perspective, it would be great to get to some sort of clarity on how the two Empires pan out. However, I'm not keen on books that keep moving the timeline since it just makes it a giant headache for GMs to figure out what they can allow for a campaign in any given time period. My view is that it's better to just give background material about the sub-demons, their Empires, and how they operate so GMs can select the material to use with a minimum of modification in their campaigns.

What is missing is how PC parties can pass through the Gargoyle and Brodkil territories and what they may encounter. At least with the Xiticix book, rules for humans passing through the hivelands are generally clear, as is the reaction if discovered. When PCs pass through Gargoyle or Brodkil territory, it is not clear if they are killed or enslaved on sight. It would be helpful to frame up the PCs' experience. However, given the nature of the two empires, it would be hard to see the bird-like Gargoyles and the anarchic / tribal Brodkil as having the sophistication of the Vampire Kingdoms, for example. So I wouldn't expect to see as detailed material as is presented in WB1 for vampires prepared for the Gargoyles and Brodkil.

I'd also argue that we need Source Books, not World Books. I admit there is no clear cut distinction and it is a bit of a quibble. However, my read of the books is that the intent is for the former to be about a specific topic giving greater detail, while the latter is for providing a broad summary of large geographic region.

As to more toys (gear, bionics, bio-wizardry, etc.), this is where I'm of two minds... first, I'm lazy and love it when more stuff is prebuilt to be used in a campaign, though second, the GM should be empowered to create their own stuff without limiting their creativity. I find that sometimes people point to the limited examples provided in books as definitive, when instead they should be archetypes GMs should build on or riff off of. Perhaps the books could approach this differently by giving a framework for GMs to design their own... similar to the the spell modification rules in Nightbane.

Just some ideas.

As far as timeline I really did not suggest moving forward necessarily since the time lines already been moved forward. I say world books because to me world book tackle broader subject like Vampire kingdoms and I believe that’s what we need for each. You definitely have a point about knowing what happens to other races in their territory. It would also make sense to include information on minions of each group as well as monster threats. Truthfully both need a vampire kingdoms style world book. As for a system for creating stuff I doubt you could even come up with a universal system so I think that’s a no go

the thing is that the story stuff from your suggestion would represent a huge shift in the dynamics of the european rifts setting, and require progressing the timeline forward by a fair bit to fit it all in.

i agree that the Brodkil & Mindwerks getting some more attention sourcebook wise would be good, and that the Gargoyle Empire might benefit from attention in a book focused on them, but it needs to be building on the existing metaplot and setting info, not making big changes to the existing balances of power

tytalan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 10:32 amI say world books because to me world book tackle broader subject like Vampire kingdoms and I believe that’s what we need for each.

Keep in mind WB1o was split into WB1r and the Vampire Sourcebook, so... it's complicated...? As I said, whether it is world books or source books, it's a quibble, but my vote would be for source books if I had pick one. Since gargoyles are described as not really better than lizard birds that flock and talk and use weapons, not sure what kind of detail a book could provide, though Brodkil are much more relatable, integrated with other sub-demons and mortals in various settings, and could be really given a more nuanced treatment - perhaps along the lines of the Shemarrian Nation sourcebook. As I said recently on a different thread, Rifter 49 is a good read for Brodkil (cue another quip from Library Ogre...)

tytalan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2024 10:32 amAs for a system for creating stuff I doubt you could even come up with a universal system so I think that’s a no go

I think it would take a bit of courage on the part of the writer and editing staff, but it could be done with lots of forgiveness and handwavium for what came before. As I said, they did it for spell modification in Nightbane and, as wonky as it is, they did it for techno-wizardry... though I think cybermagic construction rules in Nightbane are a bit if a scaling mess. So, from a bio-wizard perspective, there is precedent to enable creation of custom designs by a GM. Translating that to technology, they certainly attempted with regard to vehicles, robots, and spaceships in various games by allowing the purchase of features or components to create a design. Such rules could be extrapolated to custom bionics and gear. Though it would need to a proper think through of the model, rather than the usual PB cut and paste.

Scotland!!!

Zenviscaype wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:50 am Scotland!!!

+1000 XP for persistence...

Let's say Rifts Scotland was in the cards, what might come ahead of that?

Rifts France (and BeNeLux)... it is the new frontline with the Gargoyles and Blood Cults, lots of mystical sites, also is the overland gap between NGR and the kingdoms of England (and Scotland )

Scandinavian Alliance... who are these people, what's their backstory, why do they have a shipbuilding industry, and what is this about werewolf tribes?

Rifts Italy... so there's a wolfen / roman state? Sounds like a rehash of the PFRPG Wolfen Empire. They are located between the Gargoyles / Brodkil and the Phoenix Empire's navy. Is this only roman, or could it actually have an Carthaginian-esque offshoot to play protagonist to the Phoenix Empire antagonist for control of North Africa?

Rifts Romania... wherever there is a Vampire Intelligence, there is bad news...

Rifts Ireland... we know that Dublin is rebuilt and there is only ~30k beings on the island (if I recall correctly off the top of my head), but that leaves a lot to explore and discover since there are IRL lots of high tech headquarters in Ireland

Rifts Denmark - the walled off wasteland... well, now they have me curious...

And those are the more notable mentions that were called out in the Europe books. So lots to choose from.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm Scandinavian Alliance... who are these people, what's their backstory, why do they have a shipbuilding industry, and what is this about werewolf tribes?

working on it.

glitterboy2098 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:46 pm

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm Scandinavian Alliance... who are these people, what's their backstory, why do they have a shipbuilding industry, and what is this about werewolf tribes?

working on it.

Looking forward to it!

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm

Zenviscaype wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:50 am Scotland!!!

+1000 XP for persistence...

Let's say Rifts Scotland was in the cards, what might come ahead of that?

Rifts France (and BeNeLux)... it is the new frontline with the Gargoyles and Blood Cults, lots of mystical sites, also is the overland gap between NGR and the kingdoms of England (and Scotland )

Scandinavian Alliance... who are these people, what's their backstory, why do they have a shipbuilding industry, and what is this about werewolf tribes?

Rifts Italy... so there's a wolfen / roman state? Sounds like a rehash of the PFRPG Wolfen Empire. They are located between the Gargoyles / Brodkil and the Phoenix Empire's navy. Is this only roman, or could it actually have an Carthaginian-esque offshoot to play protagonist to the Phoenix Empire antagonist for control of North Africa?

Rifts Romania... wherever there is a Vampire Intelligence, there is bad news...

Rifts Ireland... we know that Dublin is rebuilt and there is only ~30k beings on the island (if I recall correctly off the top of my head), but that leaves a lot to explore and discover since there are IRL lots of high tech headquarters in Ireland

Rifts Denmark - the walled off wasteland... well, now they have me curious...

And those are the more notable mentions that were called out in the Europe books. So lots to choose from.

Oh all of that! I could see 10 European books. A deep dive on the Minion War or Gargoyle War.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm Rifts Italy... so there's a wolfen / roman state? Sounds like a rehash of the PFRPG Wolfen Empire. They are located between the Gargoyles / Brodkil and the Phoenix Empire's navy. Is this only roman, or could it actually have an Carthaginian-esque offshoot to play protagonist to the Phoenix Empire antagonist for control of North Africa?

the Rifter #1 article has been declared as a "not going to happen" by Kevin.. at one open house he responded to a question about them as "there are no wolfen in italy", and this was well before their decision to separate out the game lines more (which would pretty much force a rewrite of the article anyway, since it has a bunch of Palladium fantasy wolfen showing up to kick off the whole thing.

Rifts Denmark - the walled off wasteland... well, now they have me curious...

in triax 2 it's described as being the NGR's weapons testing range. which suggests that there isn't going to be much out there beyond the occasional military field outpost, and a lot of craters and other collateral damage from weaponry.

glitterboy2098 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:47 am

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm Rifts Denmark - the walled off wasteland... well, now they have me curious...

in triax 2 it's described as being the NGR's weapons testing range. which suggests that there isn't going to be much out there beyond the occasional military field outpost, and a lot of craters and other collateral damage from weaponry.

The description of Denmark in WB31 just goes to show how the paper thin rationales PB sometimes use to write off a place actually misses out on an opportunity for amazing storytelling. Let me elaborate...

Uninhabitable dead earth
In short, the soil is so dead/polluted it can't be inhabited for a number of reasons - it was undersea for 20 years (not a real issue), was used for weapons testing (no weapons range is 43000 sq km), and debased by the machinations of demons and the NGR effort that eradicated them (basically scorched earth). ... Seriously??? The pioneer spirit must be really low in the NGR as historically humans have colonized bare rock and found a way to survive. Sure, a small colony may be wiped out by a plague, but an intensive settlement strategy should build to a point where sustainability may be achieved. Heck, if the soil is dead, just drag seaweed onto the land to dry and decay and introduce fungi, worms and insects to break it down into soil. If the soil is contaminated with bad magic, find priests, psychics and good mages to counteract the bad mojo. The NGR isn't as paranoid as the Coalition when dealing with the supernatural. The dead earth aspect doesn't stand to reason.

Population
There are 700,000 NGR prisoners in Denmark!!! 700,000!!! That's 5-8x the population in Rifts Britain and Ireland depending on the estimates!!! Any yet, they just sit there doing nothing? Couldn't they be the equivalent of the convicts that were sent off to Australia to colonize in the interests of the British Empire? What kind of culture would emerge? Maybe a distinct sense of community or nationhood? Maybe even it could be a statement on whether hard work and the need to survive in the face of constant deadly adversity leads to personal reformation... our perhaps that's too deep of a concept for a pew pew RPG...

Overcompensation
If the NGR had wiped out all the demons as it says in the book, why maintain approx. 130 miles of MDC walls and fences to keep people out? Because of ghosts? There are ghosts everywhere in Europe... So there must be some other reason. Hadrian built his wall to mark the edge of the Roman civilized world, but settlers still went north and made a go of it with local Picts and tribes. The book doesn't describe the Denmark wall in the same sense - it is bluntly to keep people out and the only way in or out is guarded by a military base. Without a reason, this is completely irrational. Denmark has 1057 miles of coastline... anyone wanting into this "wasteland" would just need to get into a boat and bypass any wall. So, it must be something land borne that justifies the wall. This is where creative writing can be used, rather than weak justifications.

My idea that justifies how Denmark has been characterized - the land of an alien people-eating weed.
The demons at some point opened a Rift and a seed floated through from an alien dimension. The seed took and grew into a plant that eats people ("Feed me, Seymour, feed me!"). The demons thought this great fun and let it spread. The spirits of the eaten are the ghosts that haunt wherever the weed grows. The NGR killed all the demons, but couldn't kill the plant fast enough. They used nukes and pesticides and biological weapons to destroy the weed, but it persisted. This soured the earth for any other life. The NGR realized that the weed was spreading and built a wall to contain the plant, as the seeds couldn't get over the walls or through the fences. Traffic into the area is to prevent people from feeding the plant in the hopes of starving it. Prisoners are sent in to constantly cut it back... and if a few are lost to the plant, no real loss. The prisoners have to keep cutting as there is no way out except by air and they are too far inland to get to the coast. The weed keeps creeping closer to the prisons and they keep cutting it back. Recently, the bio-division of Triax has realized that the plant has some interesting properties that can be commercialized, so they have convinced the NGR to step up efforts to ship dbee POWs from the Gargoyle/Brodkil wars, other convicted undesirables, and unfortunate adventurers into the region to harvest plant components. This has led to designer drugs (new juicer/JAPE variants, even magical / psychic / entity-possessed juicer types), bio-bionics or bio-armor (maybe like the material from Splicers or the organitech from System Failure), or super medicine for curing disease or even preventing aging... like a scientific version of bio-wizardry. Who knows! However, perhaps there are a number of nasty side-effects that Triax has conveniently overlooked...

Anyway, those are just some ideas on how a completely dismissed region could have been better positioned for adventure.

glitterboy2098 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:47 am

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm Rifts Denmark - the walled off wasteland... well, now they have me curious...

in triax 2 it's described as being the NGR's weapons testing range. which suggests that there isn't going to be much out there beyond the occasional military field outpost, and a lot of craters and other collateral damage from weaponry.

I think that there would be a book of European kindgoms. Think of it, a French empire or Dutch empire and rumors of Rome. I'd buy it.

Zenviscaype wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 11:33 pm

glitterboy2098 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:47 am

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:26 pm Rifts Denmark - the walled off wasteland... well, now they have me curious...

in triax 2 it's described as being the NGR's weapons testing range. which suggests that there isn't going to be much out there beyond the occasional military field outpost, and a lot of craters and other collateral damage from weaponry.

I think that there would be a book of European kindgoms. Think of it, a French empire or Dutch empire and rumors of Rome. I'd buy it.

As per the books, France is overrun with Gargoyles, demons, and blood cults, so yeah, it would be very probable that there'd be monarchical parodies that could be fronts for blood cults... blood magic would be big (and should be expanded IMO) with the cultists using/abusing serfs for their blood, similar to the more organized VIs in Mexico. Rifts China can also serve as a template on which to build the concept since those are demon-run kingdoms. I would just hope any Rifts France would be unique in its own right and not a cut and paste job with a French flavor.

As per the books, Holland was ravaged by sea levels and war with gargoyles. Though, the idea of a marine/submariner enclave where the dikes failed and the land reclaimed by the sea, also based on a monarchy system, could be workable. Though it would most likely be very small, probably similar to communities in Rifts England or the the island based communities of the Amazon, and not a significant power.

Rome, and Italy generally, could be a very interesting place given its geographic location surrounded by many major regional powers.

I'd like to see a England 2 or a Scotland/Ireland/Wales/etc book that also gave us a plethora of Psychic tech. Sure we have a few things scattered around but no big catalog of cool psi-tech gear.

I have started to work (initial concepts) for my home campaign Rifts Catalonia: