Juicer Detox and Cloning technology

[MidnightNova]

Something occurred to me. If a Juicer wanted to go through Detox, and had access to cloning technology (Republic of Japan, Kittani/Atlantis, Phase World/Three Galaxies, etc). If he has a clone of himself made and his brain transplanted to it, could he avoid the detox penalties to his physical stats?

Note: I am not in any way saying he should keep any of his juicer bonuses, but rather go back to his original physical stats prior to getting juiced.

Or would he needed to have thought ahead and given a clone sample prior to his getting juiced, to avoid the various endocrine and other biochemical changes to the body that the Juicer process causes? And obviously any psychological effects would not be affected by cloning at all really.

I'm tending towards the idea of the Juicer would have to have left a clone sample of his un-juiced self, but want to know what other people think.

[Library Ogre]

I'd lean towards that they need a sample of their pre-Juiced system... but that it might be something you see in ninja juicers in Japan. I also wouldn't give them a complete skip on the detox problems, but I'd have to look into what the effects are in order to say what the results should be.

Unless you're mapping their old mind onto their new brain (getting rid of ALL of the flesh, including the brain), you're going to have some lingering issues.

[ShadowLogan]

With Brain Transplants being involved I would say they take the detox penalties with them. For simplicity I would leave it at the regular penalties, and if someone wanted to argue the point I'd explain they are partially psycho-somatic.

[Hotrod]

It seems that, if this was a solution, than full bionic conversion would also be a solution. It's not, so unless the juicer is doing some kind of non-physical mental transferrence, I think it wouldn't work.

[Aermas]

This sounds fun. I'd say they get a few small debuffs just because of the strain on their brain, as well as a roll for Derangements.

[taalismn]

I'd even reduce the original PHYSICAL stats, as the clone body isn't going to have the benefit of prior physical conditioning, unless there was one heckuva in-bottle exercise regimen applied.

[Curbludgeon]

How is full conversion bionics not a solution to Last Call?

[MidnightNova]

I'd even reduce the original PHYSICAL stats, as the clone body isn't going to have the benefit of prior physical conditioning, unless there was one heckuva in-bottle exercise regimen applied.

Hmmm... Take current stats, remove the Juicer bonuses, then remove any physical stat bonuses from skills. Reasoning is that though the brain may still know how to perform athletics, box, run etc, the clone body has not had the experience of using all of those physical skills.

Then as an option, say every level and/or a period of time (Months at least) the ex-Juicer practices, he can get the bonus back from one of the skills. Similar to dealing with muscle atrophy after a coma. The clone body is effectively "Out of tone/shape".

I do like the idea of rolls for some sort of psychological problem (I can also easily see psychological addiction leading to getting hooked on other drugs)

[Hotrod]

How is full conversion bionics not a solution to Last Call?

I don't think it is. The wording in RUE is pretty absolute about there being no exceptions, no savings throws, and no hope. Something as straightforward as a full bionic reconstruction would seem to contradict that. Conversion to a Combat Cyborg is given as a post-detox career option, but it's not given as an alternative to the risks of detox.

I haven't looked at Juicer Uprisings in a while, though; there might be something there.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

How is full conversion bionics not a solution to Last Call?

I don't think it is. The wording in RUE is pretty absolute about there being no exceptions, no savings throws, and no hope. Something as straightforward as a full bionic reconstruction would seem to contradict that. Conversion to a Combat Cyborg is given as a post-detox career option, but it's not given as an alternative to the risks of detox.

I haven't looked at Juicer Uprisings in a while, though; there might be something there.

Even though RUE explicitly states even magic Restoration won't work, I think Ley Line Restoration should. LLR replaces missing organs and limbs. It's essentially generating a new body. Which is probably why it also has a permanent PPE cost for both the mage performing it and the target being restored by it.

The way plain Restoration is written, it's just a deluxe healing spell; it heals trauma damage like wounds and broken bones. It doesn't regrow limbs or missing organs. So it makes sense that the gradual damage caused by years of Juicer chemicals wouldn't be repaired. But if a spell is powerful enough to replace missing organs, then it's growing them on a cellular level. To me, that implies even the most damaged organs can be salvaged; because they're not being repaired as much as replaced by new cells.

So then it's a matter as simple as finding a Ley Line Walker who owes you a favor. Losing 6d6 PPE permanently is not really that big a deal to a high-level LLW.

I realize KS himself would probably object to this interpretation, but I'm saying it'd be a fair house rule for a GM to make.

[Curbludgeon]

Most Coalition Juicers are very respectful toward the Combat Cyborgs in the Coalition Army, understanding better than most what these warriors have sacrificed to be mechanically augmented via bionic conversion. They are also fully aware that an increasing portion of these large, powerful brutes used to be Juicers who were either at Last Call or mortally wounded, and chose to stay in the war and keep fighting as full conversion Combat Cyborgs.

The class description for Cold-Blooded doesn't mention Juicers that I saw, but while it does necessitate a talk at the table about what if anything carries over it's been suggested as a possible path for Last Call Juicers.

[Grazzik]

First off - addiction is a terrible thing and, while Last Call can be an incredible source of drama at the table, it needs to be considered for the sensitive and complex matter that it is. Given the lack of info in the books, my ideas are...

From how I read RUE and WB10, after three years a Juicer is increasingly likely to remain a Juicer until Last Call. But more importantly, we should recognize that it isn't just a matter of the body breaking down and replacing it with a clone or a FC borg body. The Juicer condition affects the brain too and the mind within it... like any other form of addiction. So even if the body is fully replaced, the brain implanted into the cloned body or the FC chassis would still be dependent on the drugs and likely expire soon thereafter as Last Call proceeds with just the brain and any other meat parts kept. Perhaps it could mean a few extra painful months of the dark life of an addict with all the trauma and emotional pain but in a metal body, but like any other organ, the brain would eventually biologically fail due to the drug-induced damage.

The HOH reference is a good one, but it doesn't elaborate on the quality of life of the Last Call borg conversions or how long they last - imagine a 9ft tall robot hooked on some drug cocktail, living just to fight demons for another year or so. I can't see these veterans of the minion war living any sort of civilian life - they'd never rehabilitate and end up being some perverse overly-medicated killing machine. So, a short life extension is probably a blessing. Also, the chassis can be quickly refurbished for the next Juicer burnout. Injured juicers converted prior to Last Call may be drug free or still take something, but likely not at risk of catastrophic brain failure.

In the instance of LL resurrection, the cyber aspects of the juicer process would have to be removed prior to resurrection, as they'd probably just kick in to restart the Last Call once the body is alive. Since limbs lost prior to death are not replaced, I'd say any chronic damage from being a juicer remains, meaning the resurrected person would still be in Last Call - just the specific reason they died is corrected... i.e. died of a heart attack, the heart is restarted, but chronic muscle fatigue is not fixed leaving the Juicer at risk of another heart attack. I'd also say that the resurrected juicer's brain would be so fried by Last Call / drug dependency that, even though it has all its HP restored, functionally it is debilitated by drug addled psychosis. So, really a waste of PPE.

Two options I'd recommend though - 1) magical transference of the Juicer's mind and 2) the saving of the mind to a brain chip used for the Naruni Repo-bot or the Hartigal knock-offs. This would avoid the biological failure aspect of Last Call. However, either way, the former Juicer would still be with all the mental health and addiction issues intact since the Juicer's mind is still broken.

[Aermas]

First off - addiction is a terrible thing and, while Last Call can be an incredible source of drama at the table, it needs to be considered for the sensitive and complex matter that it is.

No it doesn't. We can have fun & not go into all of that. Tone is whatever the table wants. If the table treats it as something gonzo & chaotically comical then that's fine. Addiction, last call, & all the other things tied to it doesn't have enough to be a dramafest.

Like, if a jucier brain was plugged into a clone body one of the flaws might be that for some fluke the new body is left handed when the character was originally right handed, causing him to constantly flub small things like writing notes or as serious as firing a weapon with negatives. Or maybe the process leaves his brain in overdrive so the former Juicer is always "GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO! YEAH!" But he's going at a normal speed, he only thinks he's moving fast. Maybe he has an lingering addiction fixation & constantly sips cactus people juice out of a beerhat cause he feels like he still needs juice even if it's fake juice. Maybe the clone body has different taste buds so all of his old favorite meals taste like crop.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

In the instance of LL resurrection, the cyber aspects of the juicer process would have to be removed prior to resurrection, as they'd probably just kick in to restart the Last Call once the body is alive. Since limbs lost prior to death are not replaced, I'd say any chronic damage from being a juicer remains, meaning the resurrected person would still be in Last Call - just the specific reason they died is corrected... i.e. died of a heart attack, the heart is restarted, but chronic muscle fatigue is not fixed leaving the Juicer at risk of another heart attack. I'd also say that the resurrected juicer's brain would be so fried by Last Call / drug dependency that, even though it has all its HP restored, functionally it is debilitated by drug addled psychosis. So, really a waste of PPE.

Ley Line Restoration does replace limbs. It rebuilds anything missing from the body. From scratch. It harmlessly expels bionics.

It's basic Restoration that doesn't regrow limbs and lost organs. The differences between the two spells--that was the crux of my argument.

Also, it's not Resurrection. Basic Restoration/Resurrection are categorically inferior (to LL Restoration) level 14 spells.

LL Restoration is a level 15 spell, found in the Book of Magic, in the regular invocation section.

[Grazzik]

No it doesn't. We can have fun & not go into all of that. Tone is whatever the table wants. If the table treats it as something gonzo & chaotically comical then that's fine. Addiction, last call, & all the other things tied to it doesn't have enough to be a dramafest.

Yes, you could play a juicer that way if you wish. However, there are several other ways to play a Juicer facing last call, e.g.:

• A fatalistic Juicer constantly throwing themselves into the fight to gain redemption
• A distracted Juicer going off on side quests at inopportune times to find a snake oil cure to extend their life
• An increasingly anxious / angry Juicer lashing out at the world
• A worried Juicer that is driven to do as much as possible in the short time they have

All of these and more could cause friction with the rest of the PC group and result in wonderful drama that can counter groupthink that pops up from time to time. Plus look at it from the perspective of the other PCs who will soon be losing a friend / loved one and consider what emotions they need to deal with as they deal with the Juicer's behavior. Heck, even the team lead, putting emotion aside, should be wondering who to recruit to fill the Juicer's soon-to-be-open role on the team. All good opportunities for roleplay drama!

Ley Line Restoration does replace limbs. It rebuilds anything missing from the body. From scratch. It harmlessly expels bionics.
It's basic Restoration that doesn't regrow limbs and lost organs. The differences between the two spells--that was the crux of my argument.
Also, it's not Resurrection. Basic Restoration/Resurrection are categorically inferior (to LL Restoration) level 14 spells.
LL Restoration is a level 15 spell, found in the Book of Magic, in the regular invocation section.

I was referring specifically to LL Resurrection, the SOL spell, not LL Restoration as I had already dismissed LL Restoration in my view - my bad for not actually writing that. The problem with LL Restoration is that the only real differentiator between LL Restoration and Restoration is the addition to the spell description of the regrowing of lost limbs/organs. However, the language of both spell descriptions speak to physical damage/trauma (namely, restoring HP and SDC). There's no reference to addressing more intricate biological functions, such as metabolic misalignment resulting from extreme drug exposure, which means something isn't necessary damaged, just working at a level that is not a normal baseline. Also, LL Restoration would have little if any impact on the working of the brain, as the brain would be the least impacted from the physical trauma of being a Juicer and most exposed to the natural breakdown of neural links leading to harm/death. LL Restoration is a 'super heal' spell, but not a 'factory reset' for the body, particularly the brain. As such, as a GM, I wouldn't agree to LL Restoration curing or even delaying Last Call... while maybe buying the body a couple extra years by fixing any physical wear and tear, the brain would still catastrophically fail in line with the normal Last Call timeframe.

[Aermas]

Might be related but Lemurian Biomancy spells could maybe do some stuff here. I know Reconstruction is a guaranteed Juicer cure it the text itself, but I'm sure manipulating a clone body & amputated brain could do something

[Mersharr]

Since Reconstruction explicitly works to detox a Juicer, and works off DNA, one could reasonably infer that cloning would do the trick. Though I agree that if the clone body is utilized via brain transplant, all the damage to the brain (including addiction) is kept. Some sort of restoration would be required. A magical Transferral might work though...

[Grazzik]

Might be related but Lemurian Biomancy spells could maybe do some stuff here. I know Reconstruction is a guaranteed Juicer cure it the text itself, but I'm sure manipulating a clone body & amputated brain could do something

Since Reconstruction explicitly works to detox a Juicer, and works off DNA, one could reasonably infer that cloning would do the trick. Though I agree that if the clone body is utilized via brain transplant, all the damage to the brain (including addiction) is kept. Some sort of restoration would be required. A magical Transferral might work though...

Hmm, if still intent on using a clone, magical transferal from one to the other should work... perhaps using Soulmancy rituals - Transfer Soul and Permanency (WB35 pg 109). As per Lemurian Biomancy's Reconstruction, some of the mental health issues may remain even if there is no longer any chemical dependency given the soul has been swapped to a whole new "fresh" body.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I was referring specifically to LL Resurrection, the SOL spell, not LL Restoration as I had already dismissed LL Restoration in my view - my bad for not actually writing that. The problem with LL Restoration is that the only real differentiator between LL Restoration and Restoration is the addition to the spell description of the regrowing of lost limbs/organs. However, the language of both spell descriptions speak to physical damage/trauma (namely, restoring HP and SDC). There's no reference to addressing more intricate biological functions, such as metabolic misalignment resulting from extreme drug exposure, which means something isn't necessary damaged, just working at a level that is not a normal baseline. Also, LL Restoration would have little if any impact on the working of the brain, as the brain would be the least impacted from the physical trauma of being a Juicer and most exposed to the natural breakdown of neural links leading to harm/death. LL Restoration is a 'super heal' spell, but not a 'factory reset' for the body, particularly the brain. As such, as a GM, I wouldn't agree to LL Restoration curing or even delaying Last Call... while maybe buying the body a couple extra years by fixing any physical wear and tear, the brain would still catastrophically fail in line with the normal Last Call timeframe.

Hmm, I totally disagree. All the things you mention (metabolic issues, neurological problems) are structural in origin. All disease results from cellular degradation of an organ, be it brain, heart, kidney, lung, pancreas, intestinal lining, etc. There is no way a person has 'metabolic misalignment' without organ tissue damage. Compare fatty foods to Juicer drugs for an example: fatty foods increase cellular inflammation, which in turn narrows arteries, which then raises blood pressure, which causes the heart to work harder, which then thickens the lining of the heart muscles and eventually leads to total structural heart failure. Juicer drugs have the same long-term effects on various organs: a chemical interaction that results in cellular degradation.

Think about the ramifications of implants and bionics being expelled from the body. If you had bionic eyes, this spell will push the fake eyes out and generate new organic eyeballs. If half your brain was blown away, it's going to replace the missing brain tissue. It says it replaces organs, period. It doesn't say which ones are exempted.

If it can regenerate completely missing organ cells and bone, it makes no sense that it would leave damaged cells unchanged. It makes far more sense that it would replace damaged organs the same way it replaces lost organs. Otherwise you'd have to veer into the absurd scenario where it would actually be better to remove damaged organs just so the spell would replace them completely.

I also disagree that LL Restoration is merely a deluxe SDC/HP healing spell. That's an absolute overkill waste of PPE just for restoring SDC/HP, which any spell of a lower level and cost can do if cast multiple times (and still be cheaper). It's clearly meant to be much more powerful than average healing, or it wouldn't require permanent PPE loss for the caster, an animal sacrifice, being on a Ley Line, and huge PPE cost besides all that. And it wouldn't be level 15.

Even the weaker basic Restoration spell is more than just healing SDC/HP. It dissolves bullets and shrapnel in your body. That means somebody who has a bullet lodged in their spine, brain, or near their heart--areas usually too sensitive for conventional surgery--could be healed by basic Restoration and not require surgery. That goes above and beyond just restoring SDC/HP. Nobody needs to spend 750 PPE to replenish SDC/HP.