Forums of the Megaverse®

Well, here's a question about the circle. If you summon someone for a conversation, can they bring something with them and leave it? Can they take something back with them? If so, what would the limits be?

-Vek
"Making the old Star Trek tranporter bomb here."

The way you turn up would be the way you return (so no leaving stuff or getting stuff), and I think the magic would return you before an ill effect hit you so if someone cast lightning bolt on you, you would return before the bolt hit you for example.

This is easiest as it also stop things like having the circle really big but hidden under a carpet or something, then summoning your pawn, getting them to grab someone and returning with them (no save for the teleport)

For me the description would have to say you can return with things before i would allow it.

Interesting question. I'm not sure...

I would say that the summoned pawn cannot take anything back with them. If they are attacked, they will be automatically be sent back. I would extend this to any kind of "attack", including things like a psionic hypnotic suggestion, or a curse, or similar effects that may not be "attacks" in the strictest sense. And - although it does not specifically say it - I would also extend it to include any attempt to physically interact with the pawn: if you try to shake their hand, pass them something, or even place an object in their part of the circle, they will be sent back. This would prevent anything being taken back with them.

However, I am not so sure about the other way round... because: the description says that the summoner can defend themselves from attack by the pawn. As the pawn cannot leave their part of the circle, does that mean that, say, a pawn with a crossbow can fire at the summoner? If they can, then they will be leaving the crossbow bolt behind when they are sent back. If they can't, what happens when they try to fire at the summoner? Is the bolt stopped by a magical force (in which case, why would the summoner need to "defend himself")? Does the action automatically send the pawn back (in which case, a pawn can choose to send themselves back by attempting to attack their summoner or even just throwing an object out of the circle)? Or, is the crossbow bolt (or whatever) also transported back with them even though it is no longer within the confines of the circle (in which case, if desired, the pawn could lob an object for the summoner to handle and examine (or send away with a minion for up to an hour) before it is returned, even if it is by then miles away)?

It is easy (and I think probably correct) to say you can't leave objects behind - but then we need to establish what happens if you try!

OT for a second, but related: How does one keep a fresh sample of a "person's blood (dry blood won't work)" that is used in this particular circle?

If this was Rifts or another "modern" setting I could see how it could be done, but I'm not sure about the Fantasy/"past" setting.

Back on Topic.
I am assuming you are referencing ability #2 of the Circle in question. At the very least it does appear that one can leave objects behind given that the Pawn can attack the mage ("The Summoner may defend himself") per text, though nothing indicates any type of restrictions on what they'd be defending from, which would indicate physical attacks can leave stuff behind (a dagger/arrow/bolt for ex), which could indicate they could also take things with them.

As for limits I'd limit it to reasonable stuff they could carry on their person (ex. a handful of jewelry or handheld jewelry box, but not a jewelry box stand or wardrobe), but not another individual (not even an infant, though a pregnant female would take along the developing fetus).

Also, I just noticed that the description says that the summoner can try to influence the summoned pawn with "words, gold, and promises of power or wealth" - the inclusion of both the word "gold" and the phrase "promises of wealth" heavily implies that the gold is given at the time, as otherwise it is only the promise of gold, already covered under the latter part.

So maybe you can take and leave stuff?

As it doesn't give a weight limit for any extra items i would think it was more likely that it doesn't allow for it as all the other teleport types do, and i would be inclined to have the summoned appear and return with nothing. What it says about the payment tend to point towards it being paid later when the pawn actually arrives as gold is the only physical item in the list. The drop of blood is an optional component only mentioned in the description of the spell and isn't in the component list, but it would be like the othes that the blood is required when the circle is made but then only 5 ppe and the power words are required and the blood is kept magically fresh. The summoned pawn cannot enter the bottom part of the circle without making a save vs circles (16+) but can throw rocks, shoot arrows etc, cast spells etc at the summoner. One thing i have always thought odd is that summoning circles are not actual circles and they do not summon the creature into the circle, only into the open non sealing part.

Well, the impetus for this was a situation in a game. A PC had two family members kidnapped. The group had a friendly relationship with a pair of alchemists. The obvious solution to me was to use a summon pawn circle to simply summon the wife and child using power #1 of the circle. The alchemist simply loses the battle of wills and the mother and child are safe and sound. However, there was some concern that the kidnapper, who was also a summoner, could do the same thing. They also might have summoned a Succubus or Incubus who could have charmed the family members and ferreted out their true names. However, if you can send things back with the summoned pawn, you could give them a tablet with the worst possible ward sequence and their true names to protect them. That ward sequence could be tailored to the captors (Evil, demons, or just being close to the ward) and they would be summoning a bomb.

-Vek
"Also, why not use Summon Pawn for any kidnapped person or missing child?"

The summoning would work, but there is a chance that the evil summmoner has the bits required to resummon them, and most of the characters i played would never give a summoner anyones true name willingly, unless there was absolutely no other choice, as you are pretty much making them that summoners pawn for life. (Unless of course the summoner was to have an 'accident' directly afterwards)

Well, the alchemists involved are quite friendly to the group. However, in a pinch, the mind mage could erase that memory from their minds.

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

If thats second ed, If i remember correctly a mind mage can erase all of the summoners memory permanently for 4 ME, also unlikely to happen, way easier for the summoner to have an accident. He can add new memories, but they are temporary, also friendly still doesnt mean the alchemist wont sell the wizard in the parties tongue for 500gp as that is the alignment they very likely are.

Well, yeah but like I said. This is a friendly alchemist - an ally. We don't want to kill them. They are trusted. And they trust that the mind mage won't wipe any important memories.

-Vek
"Trust the alchemist."

That would have to be a very friendly mind mage to give up 4 ME permanently

Veknironth wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 3:57 pm Well, here's a question about the circle. If you summon someone for a conversation, can they bring something with them and leave it? Can they take something back with them? If so, what would the limits be?

"Can they carry it" would by my general limits.

So, let's say that the ogre summoner, Biblius, has a pathetic wretch of a pawn. We'll call him Vek.

So, Vek sneaks into a building and steals a magical necklace. Biblius summons him, and takes the necklace, and gives Vek a dagger and a vial of poison, and returns him to where he was.

How? Well, there is no limitation against summoning someone for a conversation and exchanging things; since the summoned wretch can attack the Summoner, he can clearly give things to the summoner (even if he's usually assumed to be giving an arrow at velocity, he could make the choice to give something less lethal). Presumably, if the summoner is not attacking the peon, the exchange can go the other way, as well.