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A sniper rifle is a weapon that is by definition designed to fire long ranges and kill it's target with one shot. So why doesnt' Rifts have one? Just one? I mean comeon, the rifles in Rifts that are designated as "sniper" weapons don't even have the range required, and are usually substandard compared to other rifles not designated as "Sniper" weapons. And the damage they do is laughable at best. 2D6 MD??? What the heck is that? The sniper tickler??
Well I've came up with an answer to the sniper rifle. Based off of a real life weapon and some imagination I don't think this would be a bad idea. Take the Mecham AMR rifle that fires a 20 mm round. It beats the heck out of a 50 cal. You can find it here: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn55-e.htm
This rifle fires amunition that was originally used in WW2 to shoot down planes!! And it's about twice the round the .50 cal rifle round is. With some pretty amazing range. Especially if you had match grade ammo to go with it. No upgrade the weapon to fire a 30 mm round. Substantially larger I know, but with the tech available in Rifts not a problem at all. (I'll adress the issue of recoil in a bit.) In the Mercenary's book there is a tank that fires 30 mm ramjet rounds. The damage per round is listed as 3D6. Also in Mercenary's it states that explosive rounds do three times more damage. So 3D6 times 3 would be 9 to 54.. I just round up to 1D6x10 per shot. It's a single shot weapon anyway. Palladium opened the door in the Aliens unlimited book by stating that Ramjet rounds doubled the normal range of the weapon, besides the fact this weapon is specifically designed for long range only, not a good point blank weapon. A efective range of 8000 ft is quite fesable, if not cutting it a bit short to be honest. Thats one and a half miles!! As most armors have helmets with between 30 and 60 MDC, only the CS helmets have more at 70 MDC. So at least when you snipe somone in the head you got a fair to good chance of a one shot kill. Imagine this in the hands of a gunslinger or someone with Sharpshooting Rifle and a high PP!! Pretty nasty!!
Now to address the recoil issues. Anyone shooting this from the shoulder while standing or even kneeling would be knocked on to their rump!!! So with the high tech of Rifts we have an easy answer. With the touch of a button as you lay down with this monster rifle the front bipod folds down and into position. Sensors on the bottom of the bipod automatically launch miniature versions of the Glitter Boy Pylons when in come into contact with the ground. Once locked into place, (Only taking one action) the shooter can fire at will. The bipod is conected to the rifle with a swivle "ball" style fitting that would allow full movement side to side and up and down. (Limited to about 30 degrees up, so it ain't no anti-aircraft weapon!!) When your done shooting you simply get up and grab the carrying handle, which senses the upward tug and automatically retracts the pylons and off ya go. Pretty slick huh??

Well let me know what ya think...at least it aint munchy!! Oh by the way it woud only hold at most 4 rounds.

I like it...I really like it. The whole MDC issue was always a problem with sniper weapons, so the ramjet explosive rounds seems the best route. I like the pylons and 4 shot capacity. The damage isn't even high enough to warrant such "checks", but it's all about character.

So would the ramjet round leave a vapor trail similar to the sniper rifle in Halo?

Sounds like a interesting idea. Not sure if you can combine a ramjet type round with a explosive round though.

At any rate a sniper rifle is only as good as the person using it. For some good ideas I suggest checking out John Stevens T.A.G. article in Rifter #23 for anyone interested.

EDIT: Changed Rifter numbers

I like it. So far I've just been using the Long Gun (1d6x10 md) from South America as a sniper weapon. Yours would be great against those pesky mages that have impervious to energy spells. They typically are in light armor, so this really could be a 1-shot-1-kill weapon.

So why doesnt' Rifts have one?

Cause Rifts(and PW) are more about semi-/automatic energy weapons, especially energy pistols. Better question is why does the effective range suck so bad for the sniper rifles.


I like your gun, but the combo of ramjet and expolive round is questionable but since it don't say you can't then sure. But my preferd choice has been a ATL(that one from SA2 that does 3D6X10+20) and with some house rules it does 1D6X10 at 3 times it's effective range(but still one shot per clip)

Esckey wrote:I like your gun, but the combo of ramjet and expolive round is questionable but since it don't say you can't then sure. But my preferd choice has been a ATL(that one from SA2 that does 3D6X10+20) and with some house rules it does 1D6X10 at 3 times it's effective range(but still one shot per clip)

Well I like the ATL also...but it's more of a question of availability...you really won't see many of em in anywhere else in the world besides South America..and even there they are uber-RARE.

Jaguar Wong wrote:So would the ramjet round leave a vapor trail similar to the sniper rifle in Halo?

Acording to Mercenary's it states that the ramjet rounds leave behind a plume that resembles a laser beam. An interesting twist when the enemy see's an energy beam and then notices that it explodes on contact! That would leave em geussing!! LOL!!

This is an interesting idea, but I can see a few problems.
1: Explosive rounds in mercs happen to be under SDC weapons, to boost the power of otherwise weak SDC weapons.
2: Ramjets use high velocity and superhard materials.
Using explosive ramjets just gives you a round that goes farther, faster, but lacks that hard hitting power of a ram jet. You would get 3 times the power of the basic round from the basic explosive round, not 3 times that of a ramjet round.

My solution might be to use a 30mm round using a shaped charge of NG 6 explosives using an impact detonator designed to set off the explosives.
About 225 grams (1/2 pound) of NG 6 should do 1D4x10+10 MD just from the explosive power alone.
Since it is a shaped charge, with the majority of the damage focused in one direction.. Well, I would have no problem with a shaped charge of that power doing 2D4x10 MD or even 2D6x10 MD to whatever got hit. 480 credits of explosive is more than worth the cost.

Here are a few related things I dug up.
A .50cal round is 12.7mm.
Just because a 20mm round is almost twice as round, doesn't mean it's just going to be twice as power.

I've found that a .50cal/12.7mm round weighs, on average, around 44-48 grams.
Weight for a 20mm round that I found was 134 grams (from a WWII 20mm aircraft gun)
Weight I came across for 30mm rounds are about 300-400 grams.

(Yes, I actually get bored and dig up this kind of info at times, and keep notes on what I find. Not sure how accurate it is, though)

Based on some shaky math, I estimated a 20mm would be 2-3 times more powerful than a 12.7mm round, while a 30mm round would be 2-3 times more powerful than a 20mm round, or even being 9-10 times as powerful as a 12.7mm round.
This estimate was done assuming all three had the same muzzle velocity.
(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or got info mixed up)

On a side note, I have no problem with the ATL-7 from SA2.
I've seen some laser rifles get 30D6/3D6x10 or even 40D6/4D6x10 MD worth of damage from a single e-clip. Some of the CS lasers and even the Wilk's Pulse Laser rifle from SB1 gets more damage capacity than that from a single e-clip. Overall, a laser that does 3D6x10+20 MD with an entire e-clip doesn't sound that bad. Sure, it's meant as an anti-tank weapon, but properly equipped and with a good escape/evasion plan, it would make a nice sniper weapon.

It's a pretty cool concept, but I agree with Ecksey on the questionable combination of explosive/ramjet rounds.
Another drawback you didn't address is that a firearm like this would have a horrendous report, which would make it impractical in many sniper situations.

It's a good idea, but I'll stick to my trusty ATA 20/50 VF sniper rifle for now.

The problem with the ATL is that it's rather expensive just to shoot. Can't remember the price for a e-clip or how much it costs to recharge, and I now have zero access to any PB book other then MiO, but I think it's over 5000 just to recarge

Quick explination as to why Rifts doesn't have any 'real' sniper weapons. Go sit down and make a Rifts character for a game. Try not to take anything that's M.D.C. but get some nice armor. Now imagine you've just started playing, your part of a Lazlo patrol (or CS patrol) and out of nowhere some bandits ambush you for your vehicle. You roll a nice initative, and are waiting your turn when the GM looks at you, rolls some dice, and says, "Ok Temporalmage, the bandit sniper in the trees about 1/2 back just shot you with his rifle... yup... looks like you're dead. Ok gang, Temporalmage is dead and the rest of the bandits are opening up fire."

How much fun is THAT going to be? That's one of the reasons why they didn't make sniper weapons that powerful, because as a role-playing game and not combat simulation you usually don't want to make it so that characters can die that easily/quickly.

As to the rifle itself, my one quick concern would be that swivel you have. If the force of the gun is enough to knock someone back, you're probably going to see the swivel joint start to deform and then the gun will be locked in place, or at least a lot harder to track.

Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:Ok gang, Temporalmage is dead and the rest of the bandits are opening up fire."
Daniel Stoker

One thing though, this is where the GM says, "O.k. I'll have the sniper aim at one of the NPCs first. The NPC's head will explode from the sniper shot and the rest of the PCs will take cover and figure out a way to take care of the sniper rather than standing out in the open like a bunch of dorks who want to get killed."

The next few actions involve the PCs going, "Holy crap! That guy just went down in one shot! What the hell is going on? We gotta move around under cover somehow, get behind the sniper, and take 'em out!"

This sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me; both for the GM and the characters who have to think their way out of this dire situation.

It has been my experience that (my) players love to think and come up with plans on how to get out of situations such as this.

Personally, I like the idea of a one-shot sniper rifle; I might have to use this gun in my campaign and put my players in a similar situation as I have described.

That's why I love these boards; ideas zip in from nowhere.

It may be a simple encounter, but the PCs might get an awesome gun out of it if they act fast and intelligently.

Daniel Stoker wrote:As to the rifle itself, my one quick concern would be that swivel you have. If the force of the gun is enough to knock someone back, you're probably going to see the swivel joint start to deform and then the gun will be locked in place, or at least a lot harder to track.

Daniel Stoker

This could be a cool defect of the gun that adds character to the weapon. Every so many shots you have to replace the bipod pylons because the get warped (as you said). Replacing the bipod pylons might be difficult because of the rarity of the gun and the possibility of finding a gunsmith that can do the repairs (if there isn't one already in the PC party). Hell, that is another adventure right there (or at least a mini-adventure as part of a background to a larger one).

That's it, I'm putting a sniper in my campaign who is after the PCs. Lord knows there are plenty of NPCs who have a reason to hate my PCs and send a sniper after them.

i ran a combat scenario recently where the PC group was being tagged by a sniper (with a gun converted from a video game) hiding in a ruined farmhouse. It was awesome because the whole thing was a trap. Not only was there a sniper in the roof, but he had grunts hiding on the first floor and land mines surrounding the house. When the group charged the house (which i knew they would do), they got hit HARD and had to come up with a different plan of attack.
Nothing gets everyone's attention like a sniper punk taking potshots at the group.

whether or not you can add explosives to a ramjet round...I still really like the gun. What you could do instead of the 20mm - 30mm rifle route, is to just go with the rail gun. A nice single shot discarding sabot projectile with an armor piercing/high explosive tip would fit the bill just the same. You could just as easily keep all the stats the same, and in fact since it's a single shot rail gun, like it's big brother, the Boom Gun, all the penalties and requirements for shooting would still be the same.

The replacement parts after so many shots would also be cool.

So to sum up, whether it's a rail gun, or a ramjet, I think 1D6x10 is more than fair, and it would make an awesome BFG style kinetic sniper rifle, more than capable of killing or incapacitating with a single shot (the shock of watching your arm get vaporized would be just as good as a kill shot against a large number of CS infantry). The range is more than adequate as well. I would put the payload at 5, only because I like that number (four in the clip, one in the pipe perhaps?).

Daniel Stoker wrote:As to the rifle itself, my one quick concern would be that swivel you have. If the force of the gun is enough to knock someone back, you're probably going to see the swivel joint start to deform and then the gun will be locked in place, or at least a lot harder to track.

I would question whether the gun itself would even generate that much kickback. Afterall, the ramjet rounds get their high velocity from the built in ramjet engine, not from the launch from the rifle.

Scyber wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:As to the rifle itself, my one quick concern would be that swivel you have. If the force of the gun is enough to knock someone back, you're probably going to see the swivel joint start to deform and then the gun will be locked in place, or at least a lot harder to track.

I would question whether the gun itself would even generate that much kickback. Afterall, the ramjet rounds get their high velocity from the built in ramjet engine, not from the launch from the rifle.

Well we were assuming the need for a pylon system to keep the gun from bucking as it was... so if it was applying that much force I thought it would be an issue.



Daniel Stoker

You know, a coffee can artillery piece would be so cool for the low tech nations to bring to bear on the droves of bandits. Sure most of the rounds would be things like home-made napalm, black powder bombs, and cans full of bees, but every once and a while there would be some loaded down with some MDC explosives.

Sort of like the cabbage cannon style weapons the A-Team used to build. Way too cool!

I think the weapon would still have a lot of recoil.
Even though the ramjet round gets a good speed boost from the rocket, it is still a big rifle that fires a big round at a fast speed, even before the ramjet kicks in.

If the weapon is made from MDC materials, wear and tear should be minimal. I would say that MDC materials, IMHO, are a good 50 times stronger than steel.

I had one unusual idea for recoil compensation. Having the weapon include not just the self anchoring bi-pod or even a tri-pod, but also have a mechanical/hydraulic style recoil compensation system, with the scope/targeting system being on the side of the weapon, while the barrel assembly/weapon housing (including mechanical/hydraulic recoil compensation) being on and behind the snipers shoulder, like a rocket launcher.

Add in a longer barrel and an increased propellant load to improve muzzle velocity more.
One other innovation would be a mechanism that effectively unlocks and "unscrews" the barrel and then "folds" it to the side of the weapon opposite of the scope, effectively halving the weapons length for storage purposes. It should take only 4-5 seconds to switch between storage and operational positions/modes.

R Ditto wrote:If the weapon is made from MDC materials, wear and tear should be minimal. I would say that MDC materials, IMHO, are a good 50 times stronger than steel.

I'm asusming the housing and such are MDC but you need ball bearings or some other small items inside the swivel portion of the base so that the gun can move smoothly, and a sudden jerking shock is going to cause those to deform still.



Daniel Stoker

I was thinking about this on my way home from work and figured that a good way to help solve the problem is to get some good rules regarding shooting stuff beyond the maximum effective range of energy weapons. If a energy weapon still does 1D6X10 beyond it's effective range then how big of a penalty would it be to hit something beyond the listed range?

In my games the plasma does half damage at 1.5 times it's listed range, while the PBs and Lasers do half damage at twice it's listed range

R Ditto wrote:I think the weapon would still have a lot of recoil.
Even though the ramjet round gets a good speed boost from the rocket, it is still a big rifle that fires a big round at a fast speed, even before the ramjet kicks in.

Yeah it probably would, I missed the part where it was upping the round size to 30mm, I thought it was still 20mm.

Pretty much sums it up there Matt

mindwyr wrote:

Daniel Stoker wrote:Ok gang, Temporalmage is dead and the rest of the bandits are opening up fire."
Daniel Stoker

One thing though, this is where the GM says, "O.k. I'll have the sniper aim at one of the NPCs first. The NPC's head will explode from the sniper shot and the rest of the PCs will take cover and figure out a way to take care of the sniper rather than standing out in the open like a bunch of dorks who want to get killed."

The next few actions involve the PCs going, "Holy crap! That guy just went down in one shot! What the hell is going on? We gotta move around under cover somehow, get behind the sniper, and take 'em out!"

This sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me; both for the GM and the characters who have to think their way out of this dire situation.

It has been my experience that (my) players love to think and come up with plans on how to get out of situations such as this.

Personally, I like the idea of a one-shot sniper rifle; I might have to use this gun in my campaign and put my players in a similar situation as I have described.

That's why I love these boards; ideas zip in from nowhere.

It may be a simple encounter, but the PCs might get an awesome gun out of it if they act fast and intelligently.

So basically, a 1-shot sniper rifle can work if...
-the GM takes it easy on the PCs by snuffing some NPC redshirts first.
-The PCs all have easily available cover to hide behind... cover that the sniper rifle won't just punch right on through
-The PCs are able to make their way to the sniper before he shoots again.
-The PCs are able to take him out in this first encounter before he slips off to attack again later, picking them off one-by-one.

The reason why Rifts doesn't have much in the way of Sniper rifles is because they are little use against people with MDC armor.
A person in EBA is the equivilant of a 20th century tank, and snipers aren't the tool of choice against tanks; Artillery is (or other tanks, or air support, etc.).

Unless you are using heavy artillery, or shooting at an unarmored foe, the days of one-shot-one-kill are over.

If you really want to have some sniper action in your games, I reccomend the following suggestions:

1. Have a vagabond sniper with a good SDC rifle. A WA-2000, A Weatherby, a 30-06 hunting rifle, etc.
Give them good prowl skills, tracking, hunting, and all the other skills a sniper would need.
Have him stalk the party and shoot them whenever they get out of their armor.
"Why not just stay in your armor all the time?"
Because you'll likely have to at least unzip to take a leak now or then... and then they have an opening in your armor to shoot at...
Being a sniper is, IMHO, about a heck of a lot more than having a big gun that can take out an enemy in a single shot. It's about stealth, accuracy, and patience... all of which can serve you as well in Rifts as in the real world.

2. Have a team of snipers with your basic decent Rifts Sniper rifle... like JA-11s. Once they get into position, they all aim at the same target.
4d6 MD may not kill a guy in a single shot, but 4d6x5 (or however many snipers you have) is some decent damage.

3. Give your sniper a JA-11 or other regular Rifts sniper rifle.
First, take out their vehicles by shooting at their wheels, jets, etc.
Then, once they are stuck in one place...
Don't shoot at the PCs, shoot at their weapons.
Most guns don't have much MDC and can be taken out in a shot or two.
Take your time and take out all of their weapons.
Then pick them off one by one, take your time.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The reason why Rifts doesn't have much in the way of Sniper rifles is because they are little use against people with MDC armor.
A person in EBA is the equivilant of a 20th century tank, and snipers aren't the tool of choice against tanks; Artillery is (or other tanks, or air support, etc.).

Unless you are using heavy artillery, or shooting at an unarmored foe, the days of one-shot-one-kill are over..

Sorry but your wrong. The US Military uses a .50 Cal sniper rifle that uses depleted uranium rounds to snipe tanks. A two man crew sneaks within range and then shoot at the tank where it's armor is weakest, (the rear). The depleted uranium can punch a hole through the tank and has a side effect of being an incendiary round too. Due to most tank layouts the ammunition stores are in the rear of the tank, so with one shot they have a substantial chance of hitting these stores and POOF. Smoke one tank.


I originally came up with this idea due to the severe rarity of some of the weapons that were mentioned. Such as the Shemarian rail gun which the book states is always self-destructed with the chicks. Or the ATL 7 from South America that is uber rare and super costly to operate to boot.
So instead I tried to think of a retro-weapon that could be used to snipe and actually have a decent chance of killing someone with a single shot. That is the goal of a sniper in the first place. Also this weapon is the brain child of my current character, so it's a one of a kind in the campaign and not gonna get mass produced or anything. Though feel free to use this idea in your campaigns with my blessings and have it made by Wellington. (Seems like something they would make.) The reason I wanted to build it is it's extreme range. 8000 feet!! Go ahead and take your Shemarian Rail gun, or ATL 7, or JA-12 if ya want. I'll hit ya at least 4 or 5 times before you are even close to your weapons effective range to shoot back. Not able to be silenced?? Who cares?? The target isn't even gonna hear it! He's gonna be flat on his back stunned if not KO'd by the one shot...that is if he ain't already dead. And any eye witnesses will see the first target get struck, fly about 10-15 feet, and lay still...THEN they will hear a boom that will echo around them. I don't know about you but in my opinion one of the values of a sniper is psycological warfare. And what better way to unnerve the enemy?? Heck at 8000 feet nobody is gonna even look for you. Their gonna be scouring the woods and surrounding area looking for a railgun or something that just isn't there. At most they would leave the search to 6000 feet as thats the extreme range of most weapons...including mini-missiles I might add. That still leaves you almost a half-mile away from the scouts and anti-snipers looking for you as you casually shoot them down from your very comfortable position!! Using light armor with the "spoofers" from the Juicer book along with judicious use of the camouflage skill and you can sit there all day long, order a pizza, and take out a mercenary group of 8-10 with almost total impunity. Most of all it utilizes no energy, so a zapper won't sense it and there's no worry of e-clip uses. The ammo can be made in the field with very little equipment if neccesary. And it's non-magical, so dogboy's and other's wont' be able to track it down or sense it either. It's a purpose built low tech anti-body armor weapon with extreme range capabilities that only missiles and the famous Boom Gun can rival!!

Mikica1986 wrote:About imposibility to break armor, what about neck. You cant have metal protecting neck becouse you could not move youre head. 'Bout arms if they are coated in metal you could not move 'em. Legs too. So every now and then could somone kill Dead Boy and steal his armour. Shot should be heavy penalized, but should be worth.

Sorry but no. "Environmental armor" just wouldn't be environmental if it didn't protect all the joints of the body including the neck. Basicly picture an armored space suit. It covers all the body, including the neck, while providing armored protection. Now this isn't true of all armors mind you, there are some like the juicer plate that isn't environmental...and I soppose you could "called shot" the unprotected parts with standard SDC weapons.....But dont' count on doing that to everyone...cause it just wont' work and you'll **** off sombody by scratching thier paint job and then find yourself in a gun fight with somone armed only with an SDC weapon when they have full MDC protection...OUCH!

Due to mention of MDC body armor being like a 20th century tank, I just had a sugar buzz induced alternate to a sniper rifle... a wire or laser guided anti-tank missile. Preferably with NG 6 explosives, say 5 pounds of the stuff in a shaped charge, in something like a modified version of the WI-40M in Mercs.
At least 1D4x100+100 MD worth of damage should be more than enough to eliminate the target.
Sure, it's overkill and probably costs almost 5k for the explosives, but it gets the job done. Also good for targets in PA.

Mikica1986 wrote:About imposibility to break armor, what about neck. You cant have metal protecting neck becouse you could not move youre head. 'Bout arms if they are coated in metal you could not move 'em. Legs too. So every now and then could somone kill Dead Boy and steal his armour. Shot should be heavy penalized, but should be worth.

You should check out King Henry the VIIIs field armor, it was what NASA based the design of the space suit on. It covers the body from head to toe in articulate steel and weighs less than a modern infantry soldiers equipment. I've seen people do cartwheels and backflips in similar armor.

Killer Cyborg wrote:So basically, a 1-shot sniper rifle can work if...
-the GM takes it easy on the PCs by snuffing some NPC redshirts first.
-The PCs all have easily available cover to hide behind... cover that the sniper rifle won't just punch right on through
-The PCs are able to make their way to the sniper before he shoots again.
-The PCs are able to take him out in this first encounter before he slips off to attack again later, picking them off one-by-one.

Yep, it's called pre planning on the part of the GM. Key circumstances are put into place for the encounter to make it difficult enough for the PCs but not impossible.

mindwyr wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So basically, a 1-shot sniper rifle can work if...
-the GM takes it easy on the PCs by snuffing some NPC redshirts first.
-The PCs all have easily available cover to hide behind... cover that the sniper rifle won't just punch right on through
-The PCs are able to make their way to the sniper before he shoots again.
-The PCs are able to take him out in this first encounter before he slips off to attack again later, picking them off one-by-one.

Yep, it's called pre planning on the part of the GM. Key circumstances are put into place for the encounter to make it difficult enough for the PCs but not impossible.

And the sniper usually needs some means in which he or she can actually see the targets that he or she is shooting at, whatever those various means may be.

Temporalmage wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:The reason why Rifts doesn't have much in the way of Sniper rifles is because they are little use against people with MDC armor.
A person in EBA is the equivilant of a 20th century tank, and snipers aren't the tool of choice against tanks; Artillery is (or other tanks, or air support, etc.).

Unless you are using heavy artillery, or shooting at an unarmored foe, the days of one-shot-one-kill are over..

Sorry but your wrong. The US Military uses a .50 Cal sniper rifle that uses depleted uranium rounds to snipe tanks. A two man crew sneaks within range and then shoot at the tank where it's armor is weakest, (the rear). The depleted uranium can punch a hole through the tank and has a side effect of being an incendiary round too. Due to most tank layouts the ammunition stores are in the rear of the tank, so with one shot they have a substantial chance of hitting these stores and POOF. Smoke one tank.

I don't think that it's quite as easy as you make it sound, but nothing ever is.
Your point stands.

Still, regardless of whether or not they CAN kill a tank, snipers are hardly the ideal or preferred method.
In a world full of walking tanks, ones without large stores of explosives in their rears, I don't think that snipers are meant to be that effective any more.

Also, there aren't any rules in Palladium to cover the situation that you describe; a .50 cal rifle with a DU round would do something like 1d6x10 SDC or more, but it wouldn't be enough to take out an SDC tank in one shot.

If you want to make some realistic sniping in Rifts, I'd suggest come up with a way for a powerful but not too powerful rifle to take out people in EBA... something like an "Armor knowledge" skill, a tough Intelligence skill check, some creative tables for critical hits, or calculate the exact MDC for the throat and other vulnerable parts of the armor.

I still think that sniping should be about precision shooting, not firepower.

I originally came up with this idea due to the severe rarity of some of the weapons that were mentioned. Such as the Shemarian rail gun which the book states is always self-destructed with the chicks. Or the ATL 7 from South America that is uber rare and super costly to operate to boot.
So instead I tried to think of a retro-weapon that could be used to snipe and actually have a decent chance of killing someone with a single shot. That is the goal of a sniper in the first place. Also this weapon is the brain child of my current character, so it's a one of a kind in the campaign and not gonna get mass produced or anything. Though feel free to use this idea in your campaigns with my blessings and have it made by Wellington. (Seems like something they would make.) The reason I wanted to build it is it's extreme range. 8000 feet!! Go ahead and take your Shemarian Rail gun, or ATL 7, or JA-12 if ya want. I'll hit ya at least 4 or 5 times before you are even close to your weapons effective range to shoot back. Not able to be silenced?? Who cares?? The target isn't even gonna hear it! He's gonna be flat on his back stunned if not KO'd by the one shot...that is if he ain't already dead. And any eye witnesses will see the first target get struck, fly about 10-15 feet, and lay still...THEN they will hear a boom that will echo around them. I don't know about you but in my opinion one of the values of a sniper is psycological warfare. And what better way to unnerve the enemy??

We can agree on this much, anyway, that one of the key effects of sniping is psychological warfare.
I just don't think you need an super powerful weapon to do that.
As I mentioned, a good sniper with an SDC weapon can leave people just as scarred.

In any case, don't think that I'm dissing your gun. I don't think it's necessary and I won't be using it, but it is well thought out and relatively well balanced.

Mikica1986 wrote:Well I have frend who is makeing chainmails and its not light at all. I can't even move my arms how it should be posible. And about my theory that S.D.C. weapons are for sniping : in Rifts: Chaos Earth is little title named S.D.C. weapons vs opponents in "partial" M.D.C. body armor on page 151
, is saying that bullet can hit gap in opponents armour so if victim is wearing M.D. Armour without helmet or have any part of their body exposed or coverd in soft material (every part that moves eg. knee (if I guessed the word)) It is enough to hit with salled shot and deal good damage.

Ummmm dude, look at my signature pic, I wear chainmail for a living and believe me you can move in it. No one would have ever worn it if you could not move in battle. A suit of chainmail with padded coat, coif(chainmail hood) and helmet is about 25-30 kgs, a modern infantryman's equipment weighs over 30kgs and armor is easier to move in as it is more evenly distributed over the body.

Chainmail doesn't have as good a weight distribution or articulation as Plate. The result is Chainmail is typically harder to move in than plate. Chain mail isn't impossible to move in, obviously, but there's reasons why chainmail was replaced by plate, and mobility is one of them.

You know I was thinking, and yes it hurt.

The reason one-shot one kill sniper's can't exist isn't because MDC body armor makes them useless. The problem is entirely related to game mechanics (surprise!) and a little lack of imagination.

1) Game Mechanics: Since armor is pretty much good until all MDC is depleted and because the MDC of helmets (for dead boys anyway) can be 50 or 80 MDC you just can't be a sniper against a target in body armor, because you only get one shot to deplete all MDC. And of course we all know if we try to increase the damage done by a sniper weapon we make that weapon unbalancing if it's used outside of a sniper's context.

Thus the paradox, because MDC is designed as depletion only the only way to defeat it is by increasing the amount of damage done in one shot. Whereas a system like armor rating, or something similar, allows sniper weapons to not do anymore damage, but do a different nature of damage, that can penetrate armor without depleting it fully.

An easier fix than more powerful weapons would be some sort of armor rating system for MD. Since the majority of energy weapons burn rather than penetrate the armor rating might not apply to them at all, but weapons like rail guns and armor piercing missiles would get a new lease on life and be worth the extra weight. Of course, this is blasphemy so I will stop there...

2) Lack of Imagination: I don't know anyone that can stay in EBA 24/7 a good sniper could probably stalk its prey until an opportunity opens up, then one shot with an MD rifle is more than enough. A good sniper adventure would involve lots of prowl rolls, sleep deprivation, close calls, and other things while waiting for an enemy to slip out of their armor for a bath, or a nap.

Also, very few of the armors as drawn (Juicer's Plate, Huntsman, DPM, some of the ones in New West) even have helmets as an option so if these are mass market armors a sniper has a very distinct advantage. So of course the only thing you can't snipe is full EBA, which could be possible with a slight mechanical adjustment to the game system. In fact I would argue many of the armors in parenthesis above should have an armor rating because many of them only cover parts of, not the entire, body.

All this of course would make combat much too quick and people who want to look cool would die fast, and we wouldn't want that.

--JohnS

foofoo wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Sorry but your wrong. The US Military uses a .50 Cal sniper rifle that uses depleted uranium rounds to snipe tanks. A two man crew sneaks within range and then shoot at the tank where it's armor is weakest, (the rear). The depleted uranium can punch a hole through the tank and has a side effect of being an incendiary round too. Due to most tank layouts the ammunition stores are in the rear of the tank, so with one shot they have a substantial chance of hitting these stores and POOF. Smoke one tank.

So long as by "tanks" you mean the WW1-era pieces of crap, or possibly some of the really shoddy Japanese WW2-era tanks, but that's about it. A .50 BMG round isn't going to do squat against a modern tank. The round can be used to disable armored vehicles, but not tanks. There is a very distinct difference between anti-tank and anti-materiel. The Barrett M82A1, the current .50 BMG sniper rifle used by the US military, is classified as an anti-materiel weapon.

Even in WW2, when they had (and we still have) the famed Browning M2 .50 caliber machinegun (this is the gun that the .50 Browning Machine Gun round was designed for) they weren't used against tanks. Any guesses why?

The standard ball round for the 50 cal tended to bounce off of the armor unless it was at a 90 degree angle to the armor. Ya ya.. but you must not have read what I wrote previously. They don't use the standard ammo at all. They use depleated uranium rounds in a specially designed bullet that will penetrate all but the toughest tanks. Thats right...TANKS. To date there are only two tanks that it won't penetrate. One of course is the M1A1 Abrams, the other I think is French...but don't remember. Remember that technology isnt' selective... When the come up with armor, sooner or later someone comes up with a better armor penetrator. So sniping in Rifts isn't just possible...it's enevitable.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, there aren't any rules in Palladium to cover the situation that you describe; a .50 cal rifle with a DU round would do something like 1d6x10 SDC or more, but it wouldn't be enough to take out an SDC tank in one shot.

Actually I think there is a rule for that. I read somewhere that you only have to do somthing like 10% of an items SDC to penetrate it. As in put a hole through the object. Don't remember where I read it though. It could be Hero's, or even Ninja's...but I know I've seen it. So if a tank has somthing like 300 SDC and you do over 30 points with a single round...you put a hole through it. Doing more damage can actually cause the round to keep moving and damage somthing inside, such as the amunitions stores. And if one gets hit and goes off..then there is a 75% chance the rest will too. This is also covered by Palladium.

Only thing is that I've never seen the "blow through" rule used in Rifts. It kinda makes sense but then how do you regulate things like body armor and such?? So I don't use it in that setting personally. But if you wanted to you could for such things as Armor Peircing rounds, depleated uranium rounds, and even some other high powered stuff out there. Of course it only applies to kenetic weapons and not energy stuff.

I saw stuff once on a military type show (History Channel or Discovery Channel, forget which one) that did describe the use of special .50 cal rounds designed to penetrate the weak spots of a tanks armor.

One other thing, I think only the US and British tanks have Chobam armor, and am not sure about German tanks (they're supposed to have good armor also, from what I heard once)

I also feel like bringing up The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons.
the basic .50 cal round does 1D6x10 or 1D6x10+10 SDC, and the highest velocity .50 cal weapon in the CoCW has a damage rating of 2D6x10+10.
I've seen mention elsewhere of .50 cal doing 2D4x10 SDC. (HU 2ed or N&SS, can't remember which)
The .50 cal weapons have a Penetration Value of 6-7.
6 is good enough to penetrate through 1/4 inch armor plate steel.
7 is good enough to go through brick and penetrate thin metal.

They have damage ratings of 9-10, both of which say can shoot through a car engine block. (the other two I assume would be roughly 11 and 13 if the chart went that high, with 12 being a plain 2D6x10.)

A Full Metal Jacket round with Teflon tip gets +2 PV and +1 damage rank.
Depleted Uranium is twice as dense/heavy as steel IIRC, which will effectively double the hitting power.
Also take into account the DU is likely to be used in an APFSDS style setup, which means a lot more hitting power focused in a smaller area. That means one heck of a lot more force focused into a per square millimeter area than a regular AP round and one heck of a lot more than a regular round.

CoCW terms, to me, is like taking that PV 7, 1D6x10/1D6x10+10/2D4x10/2D6x10+10 damage round, slapping on a good +2 PV and bumping up the effective hitting power by a damage rank (up to 2D4x10 or maybe even 2D6x10 maybe for the 2D4x10 one, or even 4D4x10 or 3D6x10 for the 2D6x10+10 one?), double the effective hitting power due to using DU, and you get perhaps even high enough to achieve 1-2 MD (or more?) worth of damage and perhaps even doubling the base PV of the round (7 to 14).
Similar could be achieved with Tungsten (minus the incendiary effect DU has)

Laymens terms...
To me, regular rounds are like hitting wood with a hammer, while AP rounds are like hitting the wood with a nail driven by a hammer, while a DU AP round is like taking a nail gun to the wood.

Zoderator wrote:So, while current sniper weapons are not accurate to the term of Today's sniper weapons, think first whether the game would be made boring or frustrating if sniper weapons were allowed.

Player: Yay, I made my character! It took a week to write the background, and another 3 days to do the stats and percentages, but it's done!
Sniper: Bang.
Player: **** this, I'm playing something more cinematic.

LOL That would indeed be pretty messed up!! But what about some of the other suggestions on this board that would be worse? Like other peaples belief that an SDC rifle used when peaple take off thier helmets or undo thier armor to take a leak??? (Who actually has thier character go to the bathroom on a regular basis anyway???) All that is gonna do is teach the players to never get out of thier armor for fear of being sniped. Not very good roleplaying in my opinion. Also ANYTHING the NPC's have or do the Player's can have or do also. This keeps game ballance and doesn't get a GM upset players. So if a sniper rifle is suddenly available you can bet the players are gonna get one too. In my opinion alowing a weapon like I described would make the players think more, and open new avenues of roleplay. Now when they are out there they need to pay attention to the terrain. Pick specific camp sites that wouldn't allow a sniper easy visual sighting of the camp. Set up decoy camp fires to distract and mess up any thermal sights that may be used. Even set up dummies in sleeping bags to give the appearance of "an easy target" to help warn if a sniper is out there or not. Counter sniper tactics would need to be used. ETC. I personally think this would be much better than suddenly having a party needing a cyberdoc to replace certain sexual organs that have been shot off. Besides wouldnt YOU rather be dead than have that happen to YOU????

Temporalmage,
I'm somewhat confused here...Are you saying that teaching the players that getting out of there armor is dangerous would be considered "bad role playing" or the fact that the characters just never get out of there armor is "bad role playing"? I think teaching the players that they have to be careful at all times is great for building tension and a great GM tool. Bad role playing would be if EVERY TIME they got out of there armor, someone was shot by a Shemarian that looked like Lorana Bobbit (however you spell her name).

Also, all of the things you suggest the players do when facing your suggested sniper weapon would work just as well against a sniper equiped with an SDC rifle, so I'm not really understanding why the SDC rifle is so much worse than the rifle that can kill a character in or out of their EBA.

I mean I love the idea of a single shot, large caliber railgun/rifle capable of killing most targets in EBA (perhaps making the sniper +2 apply to critical shots, but making the damage of the rifle something like 6D6, or 1D4x10). But the idea of an SDC sniper should already be in play by many GMs and PCs (the JA-11 has a single shot 7.62mm round for sniping "squishies" after all).

Jaguar Wong wrote:Temporalmage,
I'm somewhat confused here...Are you saying that teaching the players that getting out of there armor is dangerous would be considered "bad role playing" or the fact that the characters just never get out of there armor is "bad role playing"? I think teaching the players that they have to be careful at all times is great for building tension and a great GM tool. Bad role playing would be if EVERY TIME they got out of there armor, someone was shot by a Shemarian that looked like Lorana Bobbit (however you spell her name).

Your absolutly correct.
Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to explain my opinion better:
This is Rifts folks, danger is everywhere and often hidden and/or comes from unexpected places. Squishies that get out of thier armor are in danger of instant death. Every player should realize this. BUT... It's totally terrible role playing to keep your character in armor or even power armor and vehicles 27-7. That's just dumb. You can't sleep in it, eat or drink with the helmet on, or even take a smoke break. Yet time after time I've seen players that insist that thier character never takes off thier armor or even thier helmet. Bull hockypucks.
Now that we've adressed that it is indeed dangerous to do, there should be times when the characters take off thier armor for various reasons. Clauserphobia, to air the smell out of it, to relieve themselves, to eat, sleep, drink, smoke, have sex, etc, etc... Should a sniper be hiding behind every corner waiting for an opertunity?? No!! That would be terrible GMing. Should somthing happen everytime they get out of thier armor?? No!! That also would be terrible GMing. If the character are in obviously hostile territory, and adequate hints were given to the characters that something hostile is "out there", and they get out of thier armor anyway...then the GM should feel free to show them the error of thier ways. Remember the GOLDEN RULE: GM's don't kill characters, Players kill characters.

Also, all of the things you suggest the players do when facing your suggested sniper weapon would work just as well against a sniper equiped with an SDC rifle, so I'm not really understanding why the SDC rifle is so much worse than the rifle that can kill a character in or out of their EBA.

I mean I love the idea of a single shot, large caliber railgun/rifle capable of killing most targets in EBA (perhaps making the sniper +2 apply to critical shots, but making the damage of the rifle something like 6D6, or 1D4x10). But the idea of an SDC sniper should already be in play by many GMs and PCs (the JA-11 has a single shot 7.62mm round for sniping "squishies" after all).

As I stated in a previous post.....this idea is one I came up with for my current character to build and utilize for himself. This isn't intended as a production rifle or anything like that. (At least in my game.) Just a very unique weapon my charcter has built for taking out armored peaple at a distance. IMHO blasting the heads off of NPC's left and right shouldn't upset the game any, or cause any undue stress on the GM or even other player charcters. As a player there just isn't a sniper rifle in the books that is a real sniper rifle. So I made one. Also the damage I came up with of 1D6x10 has an average damage of 30-40 MD. The weakest helmet in the books is 30 MDC. The highest is 70 MDC for EBA. So on average even with this killer weapon you only have a 50% chance of a one-shot-kill. Powerfull? Yes. Munchie? Not a chance.

Don't get me wrong...I really dig your rifle, and agree that it's very cool to put in the game (I've been posting that since page one ). I just thought it was odd that you felt the use of SDC sniper tactics was a bad thing (or at least that's how it sounded).

The GM Guide has all the old armor redone with MDC by location

Nice little topic somewhat. Like someone broung up the I-11 Long Gun & ATL-7 from SA2. I came up with a player made sniper weapon and did quite well but I couldn't care to debate weapons to much except nort america has lack of decent M.D. sniper weapons. What did it have listed for CS taggers, a extended range C-12 ? Big Woop.

What really got me was the " waiting for someone to remove a piece of armor and releasing ones waste from their body". How many times does your bounty hunter strip down to take a #2 ingame? I expect NPCs to do such for a set-up from the GM. PCs are most likely to remove helmet or just get butt naked for some sex. Sure it's all about role play but who wants to micro play?

GM: Ok player 1, you feel a itch on your scrotum and have to scratch it or suffer -10 on skill rolls and -5 on combat rolls. All you have to do is take off armor to scratch it.

GM: Player 2, A eye lash falls into your eye. Remove your helmet, blah blah blah.

That's tedious. How many GMs keep track of a players food rations and water? Seems the only time people eat or drink in game is if a GM offers it or in a... BAR . I hate the forever pub. Funny though how our GM takes every chance he can when take our helmets off when out doors, that'll be one of his few chances. Pretty sure some wear depends under their armor anyway. Imagine your boots filling with urine running down the leg. Hell even some NFL players just pee on themselves while on the field heh.

No hate here though.

Of course, it also opens the door for people playing Coalition soldiers to perform the tried-and-true "sniper check"... that's right, saluting that dipstick Lt. in the field lol. Or the FNG who doesn't know anything... hehe.

if you guys like snipers, you'll love the PA i made for my rifter submission.

i can't show it, due to the newer palladium regs, but basically its a light/med PA, with passive visual camo (ghille suit, basically), and thermal and audio dampening systems to reduce the detection chances.

its rifle is a single shot projectile weapon, with targeting comp, and multiple ammo types. (sabot, HEAT, AP, ect. each with different damage and range profile making them suited for different tasks.)

glitterboy2098 wrote:if you guys like snipers, you'll love the PA i made for my rifter submission.

i can't show it, due to the newer palladium regs, but basically its a light/med PA, with passive visual camo (ghille suit, basically), and thermal and audio dampening systems to reduce the detection chances.

its rifle is a single shot projectile weapon, with targeting comp, and multiple ammo types. (sabot, HEAT, AP, ect. each with different damage and range profile making them suited for different tasks.)

That sounds very good. The sniper-based PBeM I'm in could use something like that.

it part of my TFNP project, but with all the posts on the old Thinktank gone, and the new problems with posting such stuff online, i can't show it off until its either printed in the rifter, or rejected.

Thought it sounded familiar. Actually we have that forum offline wondering what will be become of it...

well i assume you have a list of actual contributing members?

perhaps re-open it, with just those people allowed to enter, until the stuffs finished?

then once its all been sent in, delete it all, and start up a REAL netbook project.

one that stays a netbook.

(there has been a lot of talk on the Robotech boards here about an original anime setting, its unlikely that PB will make such a thing anytime soon, so a Netbook project to make one would do well.)

The way it was explained to us was that using a 20mm or .50 cal was illegal by the Geneva Convention {which we never actually signed btw}, but we could shoot their equipment... it's not OUR fault the enemy happened to be WEARING the LBE, ruck-sack, helmet, et cetera that the team sniper shot...

Actually, it is the Hague (Haag, SP?) convention, and we didn't sign it.

Interestingly in WW1 the Germans tried to get the American use of shotguns banned.

Tsh77769