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I agree the e-clips cannot be inter-changed. Just makes the game more interesting overall.

For the cost of a recharge, well thats why I like playing military campaigns...free ammo!
But when I've not done that: battlefield salvage is a why of life in Rifts Earth for me and my players. Helps greatly in costs.

Naruni Weapons only take Naruni E-clips

In one of the books it states presicly that. But you can get an adapter for Earth E-Clips.

CS weapons only use CS designed E-clips

This makes sense mainly because I'm the CS would do this to cut down on the black market. Can't use the gun if you ain't got the ammo.

But I imagine that all NG, Wilks, and everyone else in the NA(save Archie) have interchangable clips cause I don't see any of them being a big enough corpation to be pumping out e-clips like theres no tomorrow. Think about, with some of the guns low ammo capacity most of my characters carry at least 10 eclips, sometimes 20+, then they probably also suppy kingdom states with eclips, say a 1000 man army with probably upto 5000 eclips, then there's merc armies that might not have easy accesse to nuclear plant capable of recharging a clip so there's a bunch more. This'll all add up in the end and since it costs so much just to recharge one I imagine it's a costly procedure to make one. Mind you don't have any books and am going simply by memory here

E-clips are just batteries. If it wont fit in a PC's gun, the players just gunna fit jumper leads and duct tape the clip on to the gun. With a normal bullet firing gun it has to fit a complicated mechanism. A battery just has to be connected.

Now, if your trying this angle because you don't want them to get free clips, try having the enemy use non book standard shorter clips. These only have half the shots or less than a normal clip. Think about it, once the player gets it, he gets a clip with only two or three shots left. It's not a great thing to use.

As to recharging, assume that e-clips actually burn out in various spots when recharged and these need physical replacement, which takes parts and specialised knowledge.

Snippersly wrote:Now I imagine that in Rifts all WI guns only accept WI magazines, Naruni Weapons only take Naruni E-clips, and CS weapons only use CS designed E-clips. Its like in real life...I can't get my Glock mag into my Sig Sauer. The bullets are interchangeable, but the mags just dont line up so I figure thats how it is in Rifts. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Each manufacturer has a different style e-clip in my campaign. I might even go so far as saying that pistols and rifles have different e-clips. This is one way that the different power levels (damage levels) could be explained. A rifle that fires 12 shots at 1d4X10 MD will need a clip that can hold more energy (or a higher density of energy) than a pistol that fires 12 shots at 2d6 MD.

What about guns of different configuration from the same company that cause the same damage? In my mind it depends on how radically different the design of the gun is.

Other than the one reference to Naurani e-clips (previously mentioned) I can't think of any canon material about e-clip "brands." If you go by the illustrations, then is reasonable to say that there are different brands, even though there's no support text. In other words, GM's call. Do whatever fits your game.

As to the cost of a recharge, remember that while it is just a battery, that battery contains a massive amount of energy. I believe there's a reference that says one e-clip is the same as 10,000 car batteries, although I don't recall where I saw it.

Unless otherwise stated, they are iunterchanagble

that's what STANDARD E-Clip means.

each brand dosn't make their own E-Clips, why the heck would they? be reasonable people

I have always assumed that weapons that share a common ancestry share a common e-clip. North American weapons (CS or other) can all use the same e-clip. European weapons all use the same e-clip. Japanese weapons... South American.... Kittiani... However, unless otherwise noted, a South American weapon can NOT use a Japanese e-clip. In certain cases, it can happen (some European weapons can use American clips, 'cause Triax designed 'em to accept 'em so the'll see better in America) and generally that is specifically noted in the weapon description. (ie: the modified Naruni weapons.)

If this doesn't make sense, consider that NATO and Warsaw Pact 7.62mm ammo (from what I understand from Military personnel I have spoken with, and material I have read) cannot be used interchangeably - despite their diameter being identical.

Additionally, I typically restrict e-clip usage between weapon classes - a pistol cannot use the e-clip of a heavy weapon, since the clip generally would be to large for a pistol grip (which is where a pistol's clip is normally held). The major exception to this, is, naturally, the FSE-clip of Triax and the German military.

omnicrondelicious wrote:So to summarise: as published in the Rifts rules, a "Standard" e-clip fits all. Dunno why it is so expensive to recharge except yes - energy is a sellers' market in a post-apocalyptic world.

Various house rules:
E-clips can only be used interchangably by
- region (North America, Europe, Japan, etc.)
- manufacturer (CS, Triax, NG, etc.)
- macro groups (Phase World, Earth, etc.)
- weapon size (pistol, rifle, heavy)
- weapon type (PB, laser, ion, etc.)
- some combination of the above

what you all seem to be forgetting is that these companys did not create any E-Clips at all, with the exception of Triax and naruni who have spesific restrictions

even teh CS simply used pre-rifts technology from teh golden age. all the companies are all using designs based off of recovered blueprints. even japan will be the same sinse they are using direct golden age technology.

triax is the most developed company from the rifts and are the ONLY ones who developed a more advanced E-clip. the Naruni are advanced aliens.

all others have no plans for a diffreernt one so they are all teh same and are all interchanageble

I personally play that e-clips are weapon specific. We've always played that an e-clip is more than just a battery however. For an ion weapon, the e-clip also contains whatever raw material gets converted into an ion stream. The plasma rifle e-clip has the reactants used to make plasma. Etc. E-clips are an integral part of the overall weapon mechanism and are therefore specific to the weapon. That's just us though.

as far as weapon-spesific goes, that's why long e-clips don't fit into pistols

and as far as to why some guns get more damage out of the same clip? simple, they use the energy more efficiantly.

same reason why our home computer uses less electricilty than the origional one and are yet exponetially more powerful

even teh CS simply used pre-rifts technology from teh golden age. all the companies are all using designs based off of recovered blueprints. even japan will be the same sinse they are using direct golden age technology.

Wouldn't that increase the odds though that E-clips are not interchangeable? According to Chaos Earth there was only so many countries capable of producing MD energy weapons (12 countries?), I find it hard to beleive that these nations would allow their stockpiles to be used by other nations' weapons, given the world's current events at the time.
Closest thing in canon text is in Warlords, blurb about western style e-clips not working in Russian style weapons without a adaptor.

Personally I just find that not allowing e-clips interchangeable better flavor text overall.

as far as weapon-spesific goes, that's why long e-clips don't fit into pistols

Just a FYI, Wilk's makes several models of pistols that use long-clips, as does the CS. Prolly a few more but those come to mind first.

Snippersly wrote:I Now I imagine that in Rifts all WI guns only accept WI magazines, Naruni Weapons only take Naruni E-clips, and CS weapons only use CS designed E-clips. Its like in real life...I can't get my Glock mag into my Sig Sauer. The bullets are interchangeable, but the mags just dont line up so I figure thats how it is in Rifts. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

No where in the any of the 30+ books dose it say that all e-clips are standardized. The closeset thing I can find is on pg. 223 of the Core Book where it says that their costs are pretty standardized. So with the text not giving may more details, we can safely go by what is illustrated. There it's plain as day that every manufacturers has slightly different e-clips for their wepons.

With that said, e-clips are just glorified batteries that provide energy weapons with a quick dose of juice. This is evidenced by their recharge times on pg. 111 in the RGMG. To that end, one may be able to use a NG e-clip in a Wilk's rifle if a connectin can be made. Whether this is done with two high-capacity wires and a butt-load of electrical tape, or perhapse some after-market adaptor is up to the GM and how kiund he's feeling that day. But if the connection is done in this more precarious manner, not only should the whole works be more tempermantal and less reliable, but the improper connection should be given some chance of damaging the e-clip, the wepon or both!

Secondly, why is it so freakin expensive to get an E-clip recharged? Are E-clips like large batteries that you just recharge, or is it a more compliceted system? If its like a battery why cant you just plug it into the wall on a charger like your cell phone?

Why are diamons so damned expensive? Is it because they're rare? Don't make me laugh! If they're so rare then how is that there's one on the finger of 200 million people in America alone? Never mind that the mining consortiums have a non-stop flow of the things coming out of their mines every day 365 days a year by the ton.

Just like diamons, e-clip recharging servicers are kept artaficially high by those that keep a strangle hold on the market. In essence all it takes is a good sized nuclear power plant, some power regulators, and X number of slots to accomodate the X number of e-clips being recharged at any particular time. In all this rig would cost around a quarter million credits, tops, and have a service life of 5-10 years (and that's ENERGY LIFE, not continious time). So given that it takes an average of 17.25 minutes to charge an e-clip, and going with the 5 year energy life of one of these units, that means it actaully costs these merchants a whole 1.64 Credits per recharge. So by charging an average of 1,750 Cr. per recharge, they're only making a 106,707% profit on every customer's e-clip. Tht's not so unreasonable, is it?

..Phayd2black, welcome aboard.

..I find plenty of places in my game to add flavor without having to mix and match e-clips. They're universal by the book, so they're universal in my games. In the heat of a battle when the clips all run dry, picking up the clips from a fallen enemy to kill his buddies is good.

..My extra flavor comes from the MDC to SDC ratio mod and impact damage through armor rules I've added. Aside from that, the game is overflowing with flavor of it's own without having to do much mod-ing.

-Mike >8]

Phayd2black wrote:The energy isn't the problem (but concidering the difference in energy in take and power/damage out put, it should be), it's the connecters...another use for the 'Jery-Rig' Skill? I think so! lol!

I gotta agree, you do have a very good point with the 'Mad Max' out look, maybe I should spring it onto the Players...it would add to the feel of the game, don't you think?[/code]

honestly, I don't see how making ammor even harder to come by adds a feel to the game.

to me, adding feel is springing up a twist with an NPC my players labeled as "safe" without having the normal treason.

flavor to me is taking a one sentence blurb in their background and making it come back to haunt them.

flavor to me is breaking the sterotpyes people get about the FoM, CS, ect. and throwing wild cards in

making ammo more difficult to get where already only about 10% of the areas they can go to get ammo not have it anyway. that's not flavor, that's just making life tough

[rant]remeber the palladium rule of thumb

KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid

sorry, I really perfer spending my time working on my story, not pondering over the overpoweredness of MDC, how tanks are underpowerded, and precisly how the ammo works.

it's a fanatsy world, why try to apply every little real-world thing to it?

sorry, this is just my opinion, 2cents so to speak. I really prefer just going with the books rather than try to complicate everything with real-world mechanics.

another point, a lot of the time I notice here is spent going over how the books are just really weapons catalogs anymore and Big Kev&co. don't seem to be putting out all that much about the SETTING

can't you all see that he wants you all to come up with that yourselves? to take his idea and make it your own? he dosnt' discribe all that many towns and deatils, or the way everythig works because he wants you all to be free to come up with that stuff. he's trying to give yo a basic setting, some new things to put in it and let YOU come up with what people are like.

that's why this is an RPG, not a novel

my 2 cents worth on Rifts[/rant]

cheers[/i]

Another reason I think e-clips are expensive is a safety valve for the gm. If the e-clips were cheap whats to stop a player from stocking upon a lot of them. That being said I consider it way too pricey. A thousand credits maybe, five thousand is still reasonable but fifty thousand that's just insane. Thank god for the sub-particle accerlartion spell.

Here's the closest proof I could find, though for the record I always assumed that they E-clips in NA were all the same.

Rifts Merceneries: First Printing, page 124

NE-1000 "Modified' Plasma Rifle

A heavy energy rifle that looks a lot like the cartridge rifle, but works on energy clips. The "modified" version has been adjusted to operate on Earth type "E-clips"

Now since it doesn't say Coalition style E-Clips or NG Style E-clips or even any other's I'd tend to believe it's probably standardized E-clips. But it's all everyone elses games so do as you will.



Daniel Stoker

omnicrondelicious wrote: Ugh. I dunno why your post rubbed me the wrong way so much. I guess it just felt too much like "my way is the right way" to play. But after the above little cathartic rant, I feel better.

of course it was "my way is the right way". that's why I labeled it a 'rant'. don't take it personally man.

omnicrondelicious wrote: Wow dude. There are several ways I want to respond. So I'm going to do them all!

Insulted Omni:

You've crossed over from responding to the original poster's request "to get some ideas and feedback on how this whole thing works" to bashing how other people play their own games. You'd think we were forcing you to play it our way. We're not, so chill. I think everyone understands loud and clear that you don't like having separate ammo for weapons but I don't need someone telling me what 'feel' is in an RPG when I've been playing them for 14 years.

I was giving feedback as well. I never thought you were trying to tell me how to play, and it wouldn't have mattered even if you had. no offence Omni, but I'll burn my books before I play your way. as far as bashing it goes, you all were presenting your opinions on play style, why the hell shouldn't I?

omnicrondelicious wrote: Mocking Omni:

I totally know where you are coming from. Specific ammo is such a drag. Man, this one time my GM wouldn't let me use crossbow bolts for my bow and I said, no way! That's just making life tough! KISS and all. And then that Ninjas & Superspies game where my character used a .45 Colt and a 5.56mm M16 and all the bad guys used 7.62 AK-47s and stuff and I couldn't use their clips. That sucked. Last time I played with that GM. Yeah, that specific ammo thing just makes the setting lame...

No dude, making weapons have specific clips does not drag down the game. In fact, the vast majority of game systems do not allow willy-nilly swapping of ammo.

it does when ammo is as hard to come by as in Rifts. dispite how it seems in the books, only a very few places in the world have the ability to recharge E-Clips. remember, the books only outline the MAJOR players and places in Rifts, the rest is either deserted or mideval style, if not more primitive, remember, teh CS only has 5 million people total and they claim a lot of real estate comparitivly. settiling are few and far between, and on the road it can be WEEKS before you can re-supply. and who knows when you need to use your ammo to fight off random beasites. taking them off of downed enimies is the best and sometimes the ONLY way to get them in time.

omnicrondelicious wrote: Ranting Omni:

Since when was KISS the palladium rule of thumb? Palladium is not exactly known as the simplest or most elegant system in the world. In fact, it's known as clunky.

and I never could understand why. am I the ONLY person who thinks it's simple? I love Palladium Books because the system is beatuful in it's simplicity. no, I'm not being sarcastic, I took to it like a duck to water. naturally, there was one or two points that I disagree with, mostly for taking restrictions OFF the mechanics and making them even more simple. all you are doing is rolling a die and adding modifications, what's complicated about math?

omnicrondelicious wrote: As for the issue of interjecting real-life into an RPG, what you fail to grasp is there are a couple hundred people on this list and each person has different elements and degrees of reality they like to have reflected in the game setting. Some people really like snipers. And they want realistic sniper rules. Some people are military specialists and want a tank to behave like a tank and be able to kill an infantryman on a direct hit. Some people are history majors and like societies based on real-world principles. Some are economics graduates who find the credit system breaks their tolerance for suspension of disbelief. And some people own guns and know that you can't pop any ol' clip into any ol' gun and would like that in the game. People enjoy bringing what they know into games - what's wrong with that?

not a thing, not a blessed thing. he asked for advise, I gave him it, it was don't do it.

omnicrondelicious wrote: Nobody is forcing any of these into your games, much less all of them. I certainly only focus on a few elements of the real-world in my campaign. I just don't care enough about snipers to alter the rules. If you don't care about any of the above, that's completely totally fine. But don't come down on threads that are interested in those topics. In fact, if you don't care about real-world stuff in your games, I have to wonder why do you keep reading and posting on these threads then?

congrats on misinterpreting the topic. he sated teh issuse of if they are interchanable and asked"WHAT DO YOU THINK?" I told him what I thought and was quite in line with it. all I did was offor a dissenting opinion from the majority of the board. my opinion is still valid. this is an open forum for disscussion. they have the right to state what they think, and I have a right to disagree with them. these boards are NOT strictly for discussing how to apply real-wrold topics. they are for DISSUCSION, which includes mentioning the possibility that it might no be nessecarry.

omnicrondelicious wrote: re: lack of setting in the books... I can make an arms catalog a helluva lot easier than I can a setting book and I don't need to spend $20 for a bunch of weapons.

I guess this is just where you and i differ. i can sit down and in 2 hours, create a new city anywhere, in the New West, canada, japan, or anywhere in between. I can think of it's primary industry, technology level, general apperacne and fashions of people, it's general attitude twords D-bee/CS/rape/homosexuals/stranges/most anything else that will come up with my players, and what I can't think of, IF it comes up, I can easily make it up on the fly. I can think of it's arts, buildings and get a rough scetch of the town map. I can think of it's leaders, it's rebels, it's crime and who controls it. major players, famous people, how others think of it, and what the players can do there. it's a pice of cake. I know I can, because I have done so. repeadedly.

but damned if I can make a new rifle. I can sit there. I can't think of it's type, power, stats, anything. or a system. I'll leave that happy task up to big Kevin and company, as well as the bissest people/places. leave the small stuff to me.

omnicrondelicious wrote: Look at the plethora of fan-made weapons and vehicles for Rifts online.

why? theres plently in the core books, I have better things to do with my time.

omnicrondelicious wrote: Compare that to the amount of quality setting material...

my point is it's up to the GM to provide that, it's part and parcle with the job. I don't like pre-made games becuase everythings already made, all I need to do is read the book myself and suddenly i know where everything is and what the secret is. I enjoy the hook, line, and sinkers in palladium as reading material, but I don't use them.

omnicrondelicious wrote: Do there really need to be 100 different energy rifles? Really, do there?

sinse you seem to like real-world so much, why not sinse there are hundereds in real life (non-energy at leas) and too damn many handguns to count.

omnicrondelicious wrote:As for developing all the setting info for myself, Nekira - you aren't a full-time student, a volunteer at an archaeology lab, and don't have a fiance.

true, except for the full time student part. I just spend time in class on here too. I have other things that take my time up thank you very much. It dosn't require all that much time.

omnicrondelicious wrote: It is very, very handy to have published, detailed material. Too much detailed material is a bad thing. But there is a nice in-between which I don't feel Palladium has been achieving.

I disagree with you there. enough said.

Daniel Stoker wrote:Here's the closest proof I could find, though for the record I always assumed that they E-clips in NA were all the same.

Rifts Merceneries: First Printing, page 124

NE-1000 "Modified' Plasma Rifle

A heavy energy rifle that looks a lot like the cartridge rifle, but works on energy clips. The "modified" version has been adjusted to operate on Earth type "E-clips"

Now since it doesn't say Coalition style E-Clips or NG Style E-clips or even any other's I'd tend to believe it's probably standardized E-clips. But it's all everyone elses games so do as you will.

That might be because the rift they use brought them into North America when they did their initial "market research," they wouldn't have had much access to European or South American equipment.

It's still some evidence that maybe the NA E-clips are all the same though. And personally I have no problem with Europe and SA having different ones, I just always played NA having the same system of clips and that quote reinforced it for me.



Daniel Stoker

a rules lawyer would say im stupid because it is not written out anywhere, but....

LOOK AT THE PIC ART! The clips look different from gun to gun. Use logic from there.

I think the reason why we have not seen anything concrete on the subject is because it is only mentioned in the Main Book. Like everything else int he main book, its left extremely up to interpatation and the standard Palladium FAQ responce "its up to the GM". This was done on purpose so you can make what ever game you want. Now there are concrete rules that are Rifts specific

Think about how the Main Book was set up. "Magic Users" aka Ley Line Walkers, were the basic, all around magic user that could be molded into what ever "type" of magic user you wanted to make. For example: You want to make a Necromancer? Take the LLW and give him specific spells (Animate and Control Dead, Turn Dead, Create Zombie, Death Trance...). There was even a NPC in Vampire Kingdoms that did exactly that. Now there are specific rules for these specific classes, making the LLW almost obsolete. Same for Juicers, Headhunters, Borgs, and City Rats. All have been expanded on in later books.

Missiles: we have Mini, SRM, MRM, and LRM. No matter the manufactuer, no matter the model, each of the same type are exactly alike. In real life, the F-14 is the only jet that can use the Pheonix missile, yet Palladium would just say the F-14 fires a specificly ranged type missile. there are very few specific missiles in Rifts. I believe Eclips to be in the same boat.

Even SDC ordinance is ambigious in Rifts. a 7.62 is a 7.62 no matter the rifle shooting it. It does the same damage from each gun. heck, it even says that a 7.62 from an AK-47 is the same in a WWII style machine gun. Its just 7.62 (never mind the 7.62X39 vs 7.62X54R let alone frired from different weapons).

Perhaps in an upcoming book (ahem! Can we say Rifts: Black Market?), all of this stuff will be expanded on and we can use our main books for fire starting.

omnicrondelicious wrote:

I totally know where you are coming from. Specific ammo is such a drag. Man, this one time my GM wouldn't let me use crossbow bolts for my bow and I said, no way! That's just making life tough! KISS and all. And then that Ninjas & Superspies game where my character used a .45 Colt and a 5.56mm M16 and all the bad guys used 7.62 AK-47s and stuff and I couldn't use their clips. That sucked. Last time I played with that GM. Yeah, that specific ammo thing just makes the setting lame...

You make some of the worst examples. Like the crossbow bolts for a bow, kind of like using long range missiles in a WI-23 missile launcher.


I just go by the standard e-clip rules myself. Thought about the weapon art but came to the conclusion they just wanted it to look nice. Can't rule it out though if that's your thing. I really couldn't see a mass difference in e-clip design, in place like Rifts NA most weapon makers would conform to universal e-clip.

Lets say You have a Wilks rifle and 7 spare clips that only fits Wilks. Your weapon get destroyed and looking for a replacement ASAP but there's only NG weapons to be had in the area. You don't wanna buy a new set of e-clips and NG doesn't want to miss out on a sell. If they all conform to a standard clip design it's a win-win for every weapons maker. Only the CS can do whatever it wants because their pretty self-sufficient.

To each his own.