Questions about Bursters

[Slag]

#1 can a Burster Sense Plasma with Sense fire

I'd say no, but any fires started by a burst of Plasma (and there WILL be fires), I'd say yes.

#2 can a burster use Super Fuel Flame on Plasma

No...

#3 can a buster create 40ft 6d6 MD fire and then with his next action super fuel Flame it and if he cant could another burster Super Fuel it

#4 would this super 400ft fire do 6d6 x 10 or just 6d6

That's been debated here before and is usually up to the GM, though think about ambient temperature and oxygen levels when you play with fire like that.

[Dead Boy]

#1 can a Burster Sense Plasma with Sense fire

No. As plasma exists from projector weapons like the NG-E12, plasma is a super hot gas of sorts, not an actual flame. As it exists in explosives like plasma grenades or missiles, plasma is a chemical. A super napalm of sorts that is still in its intert state. However, when this super napalm ignites, then there are flames to detect.

#2 can a burster use Super Fuel Flame on Plasma

No & Maybe. Smallarm "plasma projectors" are not actually flame throwers, but super-heated gas expeller, so they have no flame to deal with. So "No" on that one.

Plasma explosives use a flash of chemically induced heat to produce combustion and thus are more subjective to this kind of enhancement. It may be possible to boost the chemical reaction with psychic energy, but there is a problem here. The explosion is so sudden it may be difficult, if not impossible, to time the Super Fuel Flame power at precisely the right time. IF this were possible it would have to be a joint effort between two characters given that the act of usuing one of these exposive devices is one melee action, and the use of the power requires another. So given that, there would have to be some kind of coordination skill roll to synch their actions.

#3 can a buster create 40ft 6d6 MD fire and then with his next action super fuel Flame it and if he cant could another burster Super Fuel it

No. The "Fire Eruption" power uses psychic energy to make and fuel a flame. The "Super Fuel Flame" power uses psychic energy to boost the strength of normal fires. Given that the Fire Eruption only has psychic energy in its makeup, the boosting power has no normal fire elements to work with and thus can't enhance the attack.

#4 would this super 400ft fire do 6d6 x 10 or just 6d6

Neither. The two powers can not work in conjunction for the reasons stated above, so it would just be a 40 ft. wide 6D6 flame.

[Dustin Fireblade]

No. The "Fire Eruption" power uses psychic energy to make and fuel a flame. The "Super Fuel Flame" power uses psychic energy to boost the strength of normal fires. Given that the Fire Eruption only has psychic energy in its makeup, the boosting power has no normal fire elements to work with and thus can't enhance the attack

No where dose it say Super Fuel Flame only affects Normal fires i would like to see where you got this information. because it would clear up much

I was asking for pg numbers and book refrance or even a rifter

First off read the penalties for using the "Fire Eruption" ability and see if your GM would allow another power to be used in the first place. That would be for your #3 question.

For the last one Dead Boy's explanation makes perfect sense. One the Burster is already using ISP and a great deal of concentration to create the fire. For Super Fuel Flame to affect the power seems rather redundant when the FE power already can create MD flames. The Super Fuel power could be used on any sub fires that started, though again your GM may have you make a concentration check to use additional powers. (I certainly would)

[Killer Cyborg]

before we get started i am looking for offical game ruleings not opinions

#1 can a Burster Sense Plasma with Sense fire

#2 can a burster use Super Fuel Flame on Plasma

#3 can a buster create 40ft 6d6 MD fire and then with his next action super fuel Flame it and if he cant could another burster Super Fuel it

#4 would this super 400ft fire do 6d6 x 10 or just 6d6

I realy need to know

1. No... But the burster could sense any fires caused by a plasma beam.
2. No.
3. Yes, he could. The only problem comes in with the fact that the area affected by the Super Fuel Flame is limited.
4. 6d6x10. Although I believe that the books now mention that GMs should use discretion. Personally, I let it stand as is.

[Killer Cyborg]

For the last one Dead Boy's explanation makes perfect sense. One the Burster is already using ISP and a great deal of concentration to create the fire. For Super Fuel Flame to affect the power seems rather redundant when the FE power already can create MD flames. The Super Fuel power could be used on any sub fires that started, though again your GM may have you make a concentration check to use additional powers. (I certainly would)

His explanation does make sense, but it is not supported (or refuted) by the actual text of the book... and I could make a number of contradictory explanations that also make sense.

It's GM's call.

[Killer Cyborg]

must have double posted. Weird.

[Nekira Sudacne]

it's right, it never says that the fire has to be natural to use super fuel flame on it.

I don't have a clue why so many of you are aginst it. it makes perfext sinse he could to me.

[Dead Boy]

No. The "Fire Eruption" power uses psychic energy to make and fuel a flame. The "Super Fuel Flame" power uses psychic energy to boost the strength of normal fires. Given that the Fire Eruption only has psychic energy in its makeup, the boosting power has no normal fire elements to work with and thus can't enhance the attack

No where dose it say Super Fuel Flame only affects Normal fires i would like to see where you got this information. because it would clear up much

I was asking for pg numbers and book refrance or even a rifter

Like FAR too may things in this game, the "common sense" rule has to be applied here.

Think of it this way. What IF it were possible to enhance psychic-generated flames? If it were possible, then what's to prevent two Bursters from combining their efforts where one make the flame and then the both use their Fuel Flame on it? If it's a 6D6 base thats multiplied by 10 and then multiplied by 10 again, that's a 6D6x100 MD! If that were possible, what's to prevent nine (9) Bursters from making a joint effort where one makes the flame and then the all psychically fuel it? That would be 6D6 x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, or 6D6x1,000,000,000 (a Billion!) over a huge stretch of land. That would mean that nine guys could vaporize all of Chi-Town in a blink of the eye.

It's an extreme example, but if you allow the first purely psychic, non-natural flame to be boosted, then that lays the ground-work for the abuse.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No. The "Fire Eruption" power uses psychic energy to make and fuel a flame. The "Super Fuel Flame" power uses psychic energy to boost the strength of normal fires. Given that the Fire Eruption only has psychic energy in its makeup, the boosting power has no normal fire elements to work with and thus can't enhance the attack

No where dose it say Super Fuel Flame only affects Normal fires i would like to see where you got this information. because it would clear up much

I was asking for pg numbers and book refrance or even a rifter

Like FAR too may things in this game, the "common sense" rule has to be applied here.

Think of it this way. What IF it were possible to enhance psychic-generated flames? If it were possible, then what's to prevent two Bursters from combining their efforts where one make the flame and then the both use their Fuel Flame on it? If it's a 6D6 base thats multiplied by 10 and then multiplied by 10 again, that's a 6D6x100 MD! If that were possible, what's to prevent nine (9) Bursters from making a joint effort where one makes the flame and then the all psychically fuel it? That would be 6D6 x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, x10, or 6D6x1,000,000,000 (a Billion!) over a huge stretch of land. That would mean that nine guys could vaporize all of Chi-Town in a blink of the eye.

It's an extreme example, but if you allow the first purely psychic, non-natural flame to be boosted, then that lays the ground-work for the abuse.

see my 32,000,000 foot wheel of fire thread for this discussion.

the point is, the RADIUS of the fire is limited to a certain square footage per level, so you can't vaporize all of chi-town. on the other hand, with 9 bursters joining effort you COULD incerate anything that's not impervous to flame or energy.

to me, common sense means you CAN affect magical fires.

and for more on this arguemnt, what's to stop 20 bursters with a campfire, started NORMALLY, and all fuling this normal fire to to insane MD preprotions, even using your theroy.

the fact is, it's a good thing bursters are generally too hot-headed to work togeather for co-ordinated efforts like this.

[Flick]

I think everyone missed the Psyscape reference to this ability being subject to GM approval. A burster packing a Crystal Fire Rod is a serious menace and super fuel flaming a 12th level 10 foot fire wheel is a very possible result. It sounds like many GMs decided to limit this ability, and rightly so since this would unbalance the majority of campaigns out there. If you are looking to play a cosimic munchkin campaign apply the 10x damage rule to all magic fire and give the burster a TW flame dagger or flame sword to start out with. Sit back and watch the fireworks or just limit its application as outlined in Psyscape.

[Killer Cyborg]

as a gm I'd say the original fire could only be made 10x bigger than it originally was via Super Fuel Flame. Once it's enhanced to the max, it won't matter how many other Bursters come along, or when.

it's quite conceivable that it could turn into a raging forest fire and burn down a city/woods/mountainside, but I wouldn't allow any more Super Fuel Flame boosts on it.

i agree completely, but i would also state that no matter what, it's damage would not increase, just the size of ground the MD fire covered.

What you do in your own game is fine, but according to the rules the damage is increased in proportion to the size of the fire.

[Killer Cyborg]

Another thought occurs to me...

Say a first level burster creates a 20' area of fire that does 4d6 MD.
Then he uses Super Fuel Flame to make that fire into a 200' area fire that does 4d6x10 MD.
Can he boost the fire again?
I'd say no.
He can only affect a 20' area of flame, and the fire is now way larger than 20'... it's too big for him to control any longer.
Also, this large area is too large for him to psychically feed through his Fire Eruption ability. He can only affect a 20' area at first level, so even though Super Fuel Flame can make that fire get a whole lot bigger, it will go out again right away (although it may combust other things before it goes out).

What about a 15th level burster?
He could make a 40' area Fire Eruption that does 6d6 MD.
Then he could Super Fuel Flame on it so that it does 6d6x10 MD and covers a 400' area.
But the maximum area he can keep going with Fire Eruption is 90', so any fire past that 90' area would go out again.
Would that 90' fire that he kept going do 6d6x10 MD still?
I'd say no.
The damage of the fire is directly proportional to that of the size, and the size of the fire is no longer 10x that of the original fire.
The damage would either be 2x the original (12d6), or it would fall back to the listed damage under Fire Eruption as "40' or bigger" and go back to doing 6d6 MD.

Pretty powerful, but compare it to some of the things that other classes can do at 15th level.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

okay, maybe this was refuted in Psyscape; i dont know. But check this out anyway.

lets say we have a 1st level burster. he creates a 20 ft (the maximum for his level) wall of fire that does 4D6 MD. Then he uses Super Fuel Flame to increase the size from 20 ft to 200 ft.
ok?
That's only going to be 6D6 MD
Why?
Here's why.
Under Super Fuel Flame, it says that "the character can feed a fire....increasing its SIZE as much as 10 times" And it says that the damage is proportional to its size. Now, under Fire Eruption power, it says that a fire "40 ft OR BIGGER does 6D6 MD"
This means the damage caps at 6D6. it never does any more. Whether it's 200 ft or 2,000,000. It doesn't matter.
There are no other indications as to the damage a fire might do. The only damage listed is under the fire eruption power. Since that is the only listing, it is the only logical source for damage, short of making it up yourself.
If there is another table someplace that says a fire over 40 ft does more than 6D6 MD, let me see it.

[gelidus]

This is kinda odd topic but could a burster put out the jet engins on a samus?

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

The explanation for 40ft or bigger was genius, Roadwarrior. Finally, a way to beat it!

Thank You.

[Killer Cyborg]

okay, maybe this was refuted in Psyscape; i dont know. But check this out anyway.

lets say we have a 1st level burster. he creates a 20 ft (the maximum for his level) wall of fire that does 4D6 MD. Then he uses Super Fuel Flame to increase the size from 20 ft to 200 ft.
ok?
That's only going to be 6D6 MD
Why?
Here's why.
Under Super Fuel Flame, it says that "the character can feed a fire....increasing its SIZE as much as 10 times" And it says that the damage is proportional to its size. Now, under Fire Eruption power, it says that a fire "40 ft OR BIGGER does 6D6 MD"
This means the damage caps at 6D6. it never does any more. Whether it's 200 ft or 2,000,000. It doesn't matter.
There are no other indications as to the damage a fire might do. The only damage listed is under the fire eruption power. Since that is the only listing, it is the only logical source for damage, short of making it up yourself.
If there is another table someplace that says a fire over 40 ft does more than 6D6 MD, let me see it.

I thought of that too, actually, but it's GM's call whether the "x10 damage" from Super Fuel Flame or the 6d6 MD cap from Fire Eruption takes priority.
I'd say that the Super Fuel Flame trumps the 6d6 limit.

[The Galactus Kid]

Road Warrior and I discussed this. I accept his explaination, but to argue for arguments sake, here is where the mixup comes from. They are two different powers. PERIOD. That is exactly what causes the confusion.

Lets take a Burster for example. The do FIRE ERRUPTION to a twenty foot area for 4D6 MD. That is how much damage he can do at first level, and the damage is based off of the chart for THAT PARTICULAR POWER.

Next, the Burster does SUPER FUEL FLAME, a completely different power. In the description of Super fuel flame, it states that the damage is relative to the size of the fire. This is interpretted by most to mean direct relativity (1 for 1) so if the fire is made to grow in size by ten times, then the damage will be multiplied by 10 times. 4D6x10. When you look at the situation from this angle, Road Warriors point is null and void because it is using a damage listing from another power, not the damage description in the power being used.

This is from where the confusion arises. I know that in our games Road warrior and I will use his way, and not the Munchkin way, though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even so, since it only increases the size of the flames, and not the intensity, you'd have to be scalably larger to take that huge amount of damage from it. The increased damage was likely meant to be used against vehicles and buildings, since they're the most likely targets of things like fire eruption, being immobile, and large enough for all of the increased fire to hit it, taking fully multiplied damage.

I disagree entirely.
The Fire Eruption power is an area effect power that is best used against massed ground troops.
The only times in any of my games that a burster has taken out a building, it has been incidental to trying to torch a bunch of enemies.
The power states that the damage is increased in proportion to the size, not that the damage is increased against larger targets.

[PigLickJF]

I disagree entirely.
The Fire Eruption power is an area effect power that is best used against massed ground troops.
The only times in any of my games that a burster has taken out a building, it has been incidental to trying to torch a bunch of enemies.
The power states that the damage is increased in proportion to the size, not that the damage is increased against larger targets.

But it doesn't really state how damage/area is handled. It makes sense that if a fire is 10 times larger then it will do 10 times as much damage. However, that does not mean that any individual point/object within the are will take ten times more damage. As he said, it doesn't say that it increases the intensity of the flames, just the size of the area.

For example, let's say you have a field of troops standing 20' apart. You invoke the power centered on one of the troops. He takes 4d6 damage. Now you increase the size of the area of flames to be ten times larger. 10 of the troops are now engulfed. Each takes 4d6 damage, for a total of (4d6)*10. That would still be a ten times increase in damage. The power's description really doesn't make it clear.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

I disagree entirely.
The Fire Eruption power is an area effect power that is best used against massed ground troops.
The only times in any of my games that a burster has taken out a building, it has been incidental to trying to torch a bunch of enemies.
The power states that the damage is increased in proportion to the size, not that the damage is increased against larger targets.

But it doesn't really state how damage/area is handled. It makes sense that if a fire is 10 times larger then it will do 10 times as much damage. However, that does not mean that any individual point/object within the are will take ten times more damage. As he said, it doesn't say that it increases the intensity of the flames, just the size of the area.

For example, let's say you have a field of troops standing 20' apart. You invoke the power centered on one of the troops. He takes 4d6 damage. Now you increase the size of the area of flames to be ten times larger. 10 of the troops are now engulfed. Each takes 4d6 damage, for a total of (4d6)*10. That would still be a ten times increase in damage. The power's description really doesn't make it clear.

PigLick

If the increase in size is the cause of the increase in damage,
they why does the magic spell of Fuel Flame increase only the size of the flames and not the damage?

[PigLickJF]

If the increase in size is the cause of the increase in damage,
they why doesn't the magic spell of Fuel Flame increase only the size of the flames and not the damage?

I'm not sure I understand the question...as far as I can tell from the spell description, it may only increase the size and not the damage. Damage is not mentioned in the spell description at all.

Did you mean why *does* the spell only increase size and not damage?

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

If the increase in size is the cause of the increase in damage,
they why doesn't the magic spell of Fuel Flame increase only the size of the flames and not the damage?

I'm not sure I understand the question...as far as I can tell from the spell description, it may only increase the size and not the damage. Damage is not mentioned in the spell description at all.

Did you mean why *does* the spell only increase size and not damage?

PigLick

Yeah, that's the one.
It's late.

[PigLickJF]

Did you mean why *does* the spell only increase size and not damage?

PigLick

Yeah, that's the one.
It's late.

Ah, heh, ok, that makes more sense to me.

In answer to that question, I would say simply "because that's how the spell works." Magic and psionics are not the same, and the spell Fuel Flame is not the same as the SUper Fuel Flame power of a Burster.

That being said, there is also a very valid argument that the spell does in fact increase damage. It doesn't say one way or another, but it seems pretty dang reasonable that a fire that has become twice as big will also have twice as much destructive force.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

In answer to that question, I would say simply "because that's how the spell works." Magic and psionics are not the same, and the spell Fuel Flame is not the same as the SUper Fuel Flame power of a Burster.

That being said, there is also a very valid argument that the spell does in fact increase damage. It doesn't say one way or another, but it seems pretty dang reasonable that a fire that has become twice as big will also have twice as much destructive force.

PigLick

1. The spell says that it increases size.
2. The burster specifically says that it increases size and damage.

To me this means just what it says; bursters can increase damage of fire, but mages can't.
Which means that the increase in damage, although propotional to the increase in size, is not caused by the increase in size.

Also, an increase in the size of the fire wouldn't necessarily increase the damage in of itself.
What's the difference between standing waste-deep in flames that extend 20' on either side of you and standing waste-deep in flames that extend 40' on either side of you?

[PigLickJF]

1. The spell says that it increases size.
2. The burster specifically says that it increases size and damage.

To me this means just what it says; bursters can increase damage of fire, but mages can't.
Which means that the increase in damage, although propotional to the increase in size, is not caused by the increase in size.

Considering the frequent inconsistencies in Palladium's writing, I try not to infer anything between rules. Just because the psionic power says it does increase damage and the spell does not doesn't automatically mean the spell doesn't do more damage. Like I said, it could just be sort of a given that if a fire is twice as large, it will do twice as much damage.

Also, even if the spell does increase the size and not the damage, that still doesn't necessarily mean anything for the psionic power. They are separate powers. Perhaps the spell makes a fire that is twice as large, but only half as "hot." Doesn't make much sense, but it is magic after all, it doesn't have to make sense.

Also, an increase in the size of the fire wouldn't necessarily increase the damage in of itself.
What's the difference between standing waste-deep in flames that extend 20' on either side of you and standing waste-deep in flames that extend 40' on either side of you?

None, that's exactly my point. A fire that is twice as large will do twice as much damage overall, but it won't necessarily be any more intense at any given point. So the burster powers says the damage is increased proportional to the size, does that mean at any given point in the fire it's doing more damage, or does it mean that the fire, as a whole, is doing more damage? It doesn't make that clear.

PigLick

[Killer Cyborg]

that's exactly my point. A fire that is twice as large will do twice as much damage overall, but it won't necessarily be any more intense at any given point. So the burster powers says the damage is increased proportional to the size, does that mean at any given point in the fire it's doing more damage, or does it mean that the fire, as a whole, is doing more damage? It doesn't make that clear.

PigLick

We agree that increasing the size shouldn't increase the damage.
The spell shows that increasing the size alone does NOT increase the damage.

Yet the burster power specifically states that Super Fueling the flames increases BOTH size and damage.
This indicates that the increase in damage is a seperate (though related) function of the Super Fuel Flame power from the increase in size.

(As a side note, I see what you are saying about the fact that a larger fire that does the same damage would do more damage to a larger object... that an object the size of one man might take 4d6 MD from a fire but that an object twice the size of a man might take 8d6 from the same fire.
This makes sense, but is never covered anywhere in palladium's rules, so I don't think they'd start here.
Explosives, flamethrowers, dragon's breath, etc. would all work the same way, no?
But they don't.

[The Galactus Kid]

Is the fire erruption a 40 square foot area, or a 40x40 ft area?

[The Galactus Kid]

that is lame.

[The Galactus Kid]

OH!!! I'm stupid. I never tought of using it like that. I just thought that it was created like the blast radius of a grenade. Yeah, the manipulation of that flame can be super bada$$.