Is KS out to get vampires?

[Enderthane]

A funny question, I dont understand the reasoning behind it, why are vampires so weak in Nighbane? It takes forever to go up a level, and you get nothing for it, EVER. ( I play one, a very fun PC.) What I mean is, anything can kill a vampire, most of the characters and NPCs ( villains and friends alike ) are supernatural critters, so the invulnerability is useless. They get nothing for gaining XP, not even skills or abilities, and they are weaker than all the rest of the OCC/RCC/PCCs in the megaverse.

I have no idea why this is, maybe a vampire kicked his ( Mr. Siembieda's ) dog, so he makes fun of them? I don't know, just a peeve I have.

[Daniel Stoker]

You do realize they're virtually immune to all normal weapons, have a fantastic rate of healing, and were meant to be bad guys for the most part?



Daniel Stoker

[Specter]

Vampires weak? I don't care if a nightbane has supernatural strength... you can kill a vamp and it will get back up. In my games I take away the water weakness, but holy water still does damage. Vampires aren't weak at all... either your GM is pulling one over on you or something. I've never played a vampire... I have played an abandoned vampire. Very fun to play with all the insanities.

[Mike Taylor]

I have to side with Daniel and Specter on this. Between their transformation abilities, their supernatural strength, and their immunity to most mortal forms of attack, vamps ARE tough to bring down. Then there's the matter of properly staking them, beheading them, and burning the remains. That's an awful lot of work to take out a "weak" monster. At least with Hunters and Hounds all you have to do is hit them until they stand no taller than dust.

[Shaved Monkey]

Enderthane, have you never used Super-hypnotic suggestion to tell the most powerful PC in the group to sit in and face the corner and to do nothing but to consider how much of a failure he is? Even a simple, "Don't hurt me, I'm really on your side" is just one ability a vamp possesses.

[Specter]

I almost forgot about that power... damn. I never used it against my PCs...

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

One of the best tricks with portraying vampires in Palladium is concealing the fact that they're vamps so that your players don't whip out a supersoaker. The farthest I ever took this was a villain vamp I ran in a game who maintained the illusion that he was a spellcaster. He faked spellcasting (spoke gibberish and made random arm movements) when using most of his natural abilities. For the longest time the players thought he was a high-level human spellcaster -- after all, he could do all this cool stuff like change into mist, command them to do things, and bullets didn't do anything to him. They were terrified. Then one day the characters realized that they never saw him during the day, only his henchmen, and everything clicked into place. Confusion and subterfuge will prolong the lives of your vamps if you find they're being soaked to death too often for your liking. Using them sparingly so you can catch your players unprepared (in other words, without the water pistols they haven't needed in ages) also helps.

[Reagren Wright]

Don't forget vampires can retain some of their knowledge. Which
means if a vampire was a mage in his previous life. He can still
be a mage in his after life. He won't have the huge pool of PPE
he once had, but the Astral Mage Vampire who doesn't allow
water or wood in his Astral Kingdom is not going to be a fun
guy to fight.

[Specter]

is everyone here forgetting mist transformation? if the vamp is loosing, poof! he's gone. then he comes back with a whole lot of friends. killing vampires is a royal pain!


a vampiric cat

Umm... did you read all of the posts?

[Specter]

Ok Rallan... granted a nightbane could whoop up on a vampire... you know a retarded vampire who doesn't think to use the power to transform into mist and float away. Do Hounds carry wooden weapons? They have supernatural strength so yeah, I guess they could do damage...

One on one vamps are weak... except if nobody has any wooden weapons, or silver, or holy water... and what you thought was one vamp turned out to be twenty! And, that ugly stray that you kicked earlier!?!? It was a ******* vampire! *runs away screaming*

[Cardiac]

That's because Palladium vampires are designed as VERMIN. Carriers of a supernatural DISEASE. These aren't your prissy frilly-shirt-or black leather-coat-wearing-gothy-whiny-anne-rice vamps.

Your PCs aren't afraid of a single vampire? What if they stumble into a nest of 50?

They're supernatural abilities are NOT supposed to be combat related. They are mainly used for stealth, control of others, and spreading their disease/increasing their numbers. If even one of a group of vamps gets away it can quickly create more - ESPECIALLY in an urban environment.

Quite frankly, with all of the vamps and other supernatural horrors running around - I'm surprised there are any homless people LEFT on the streets.

Hounds have Supernatural PS and Magical weapons? Nightbane have supernatural PS? Good for them - you can hurt a vampire - even put it down....for a short while. It will get back up in seconds. Unless you use the tried and true method of "stake'em-and-bake'em" or pin them down out in the sunlight - they're gonna return very quickly. It can be very easy for even two vamps to kill another creature - even if the creature puts one vamp down, the other vamp can keep the attacker busy while the injured one regenerates (unless you ignore or turn your back to the other vamp while you stake the first one - not a wise thing to do).

[Specter]

The only change I make is the watergun rule...
It's gotta be holy water or no dice.

This is true in my games as well. I've already stated my dislike for the death by sprinkler system... unless you have a very holy priest in your party. Rifters 1 by the way... would bode well for a party to have a human priest in my nightbane games. I use all of Trustrum's stuff, so blessing water, and blessing bullets makes a priest the most valuable asset around.

[Enderthane]

Hello again, my thread seems to have generated a few replies. Let me explain a bit. My biggest problem is that vamps get nothing for going up levels. I played my PC Jack for 4 years now, he is 3rd level, and I have had to play the smartest game I have ever seen. Critters are easily going to masacre me. I have had to run, abuse my powers ( he he ), and really try so much harder than the other players, and it all comes to very little. At 10, 000 xp for lvl 2, and so on, you can see my frustration.

The next thing is, vamps are not so hard to kill off. Stake and leave for a tan. No one ever travels with stakes? Ah, just uproot a tree, thats what Jack did. Wood is so easy to find, it is everywhere. The hypno powers do not work on nightbane, they are immune, so the other players are not going to be happy if he tries it. He is a lone critter, he does not travel in a pack, so there goes that idea. As it is, pc vampires get nothing for working harder than any three other characters combined. Arn't pc suposed to be extraordinary for their race? Yes, vampires are weak, but most dont actively go out adventuring. A pc does, and sucks while the rest of the party gets bigger.

As for fighting them, yes, they are a pain. My group has an old addage. If you are ready to fight vampires, they are screwed. If you are not, you are screwed. They do travel in packs, they are scary with their powers, and even though almost anything can beat them down, they can get back up.

See, my dillema comes from playing one. I have had many great ideas, blowing up a pipe bomb on Jacks chest to stop a night price from escaping in a sportscar, then pulling himself out of a concrete pillar to walk away unharmed. As I said, abusing powers, but there is no reward in character advancement, and it takes so damn long to do it!

By the way, at the end of para 2, the pun is intended.

[Specter]

Ah, is that all? I have a very Special Rifters for you dude... I'm not sure, but I think it might help. I'll post later.

[Specter]

Sorry I took so long... Rifter 4 page 20... if your a seconday vamp you can eventually go Master.

[Tinker Dragoon]

This particular Rifter article contained official HLS adventures and errata for vampires in PFRPG2e. No reason it can't be applied to vampires in other games though.

Basically, the rule is that a secondary vampire of sufficient age and experience effectively becomes a master vampire in terms of power and prestige, except that it remains a major psionic.

[Enderthane]

All in all, the vampire, as a villain, is a great menace. This I say as a player, and a GM. However, my idea is still there, as a pc, the vampire gets nothing for exp. They stay stationary, as the rest of the world gets more powerful. A 2000 year old vampire is just as strong as a first level vampire, they are just as easy to beat. Wealth is an arbitrary thing in nightbane, it means very little when a group of hounds is cutting you to shreds. other classes get more powerful with level, and increase faster than a vampire. A vampire gets almost nothing. They can summon more, thats it, really.

One argument against me could be the use of minions. I say to you, is that wise in a group of do-gooders who can tear you a new "A"? NO! As it has been said, the vamp is a vermin, and creating undead is not something a " good " pc does. Nor is enslaving mortals, good nightspawn tend to do away with that kind of critter.

That is why I have come up with a bonus chart for vampires as they increase in levels. It may look like a bit much to give, but I think the amount of time it takes, and the smart rping it takes to get anywhere in NB with a blood-sucker, deserves the rewards I give. That and the fact that most vamps never really will go higher than maybe second level unless they are pc, balances it out.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I have to side with Daniel and Specter on this. Between their transformation abilities, their supernatural strength, and their immunity to most mortal forms of attack, vamps ARE tough to bring down. Then there's the matter of properly staking them, beheading them, and burning the remains. That's an awful lot of work to take out a "weak" monster. At least with Hunters and Hounds all you have to do is hit them until they stand no taller than dust.

What he and they said.

Besides vamps are not meant as P.C.s.

Furthermore (as per Rifts World Book 1), vamps do get stuff as they go up in level. Not sure aboot Nightbane though...

[Mike Taylor]

They're the same vamps, Josh.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

They're the same vamps, Josh.

I know that, I was not sure if Nightbane had the table somewhere hidden in some obscure corner of the book.

[Zenvis]

A funny question, I dont understand the reasoning behind it, why are vampires so weak in Nighbane? It takes forever to go up a level, and you get nothing for it, EVER. ( I play one, a very fun PC.) What I mean is, anything can kill a vampire, most of the characters and NPCs ( villains and friends alike ) are supernatural critters, so the invulnerability is useless. They get nothing for gaining XP, not even skills or abilities, and they are weaker than all the rest of the OCC/RCC/PCCs in the megaverse.

I have no idea why this is, maybe a vampire kicked his ( Mr. Siembieda's ) dog, so he makes fun of them? I don't know, just a peeve I have.

You silly silly G.M.'s, you cannot have players go off of player knowledge. If they have no knowledge of how to kill a vampire via vampire lore then they can't kill vampires, and because they don't have that expicit knowledge, they will have a continously returning villian.

[Specter]

Staking a vamp immobolizing them would be common knowledge amongst any human special forces...

[AzathothXy]

I think allowing Master Vamps, who are mages, to keep their PPE is acceptable.The process is different.More like a witch's gift of union or something.And since even demigods(and maybe other unusual creatures) can become masters,it would help encourage these beings into service if they didn't lose their special qualities.Maybe even allowing the master to advance in ability.Secondarys and wilds can stay the same.

[Specter]

Also have you thought about making some underlings?

[Sir_Spirit]

. My biggest problem is that vamps get nothing for going up levels. I played my PC Jack for 4 years now, he is 3rd level, and I have had to play the smartest game I have ever seen. Critters are easily going to masacre me. I have had to run, abuse my powers ( he he ), and really try so much harder than the other players, and it all comes to very little. At 10, 000 xp for lvl 2, and so on, you can see my frustration., but there is no reward in character advancement, and it takes so damn long to do it!.

Rifts world book one: Vampire Kingdoms states that a 7th Lvl Secondary vampire automatically gets all the powers and ablilties of a Master vampire.(Sorry but I can't give you a pg # or I would)

[Specter]

I thought that was just in a Rifters... I never read it in Vampire kingdoms.

[Sir_Spirit]

Or you could use HU to make up a "creature of the night that sucks on blood " and just call it a vampire.

[Sentinel]

One more thing may help you here: Be sure to tell the players that their characters may not know everything there is to know about killing Vamps. Just having Demon/Monster Lore alone isn't enough(otherwise what would be the point of level increases, unless there was something lower levels didn't know?). I have for my own games, changed a couple of the weaknesses, just because it seemed everybody knew how to take them down, and was always prepared to do so.

[Sir_Spirit]

Oh my GOD!!! Enderthane figured it out! Palladium employees will be at your house to eliminate you within the hour.

Seriusly no he's not your just a vampire supremisist.

OD you knwo the boards other wookie LJ?

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, the vamps are the same as those in Rifts, and they're in an SDC world, and people are saying that they're not tough enough!?

1. What type of clothing do vampires stereotypically wear? Let's see... capes, trenchcoats, leather, rubber... Hmmm... it's all waterproof to some degree, isn't it?
I don't know about you, but an AR vs. water attacks certainly seems appropriate to me.

2. Armor. Sure, vamps don't LIKE armor, but secondary and master vamps are smart enough to use it if they have to. They like roman style chestplates (which would be unnoticable under certain clothing, and which would stop water or stake attacks to the chest pretty well). In Rifts, their armor is MDC, but an SDC kevlar vest with a knife-plate over the heart seems good for Nightbane. It does limit their transformation powers, but that's a small price to pay for living through a barrage of silver bullets and crossbow bolts...

3. Turn To Mist. Unfortunately, this takes a half-melee to do. Still, it's a nice escape and a great entrance (especially combined with the summon fog power).

4. Summon Vermin. Yeah, try to aim those squirtguns when you have hundreds of rats (100 per level of the vamp) crawling on you. Does minor damage 1d6+1 SDC (but likely bypasses any AR) and "are quite distracting" so good luck casting any spells if you're some sort of mage.
Remember that the horde causes people in it to lose suffer penalties: -1 attack, -4 init, -2 parry/dodge, lose enhanced hearing, and vision reduced by 75%.
The book never comments on it, but it seems sensible to me that the vamp can wade right through the swarm with no penalties other than the vision and hearing impairment.

5. Summon Canines. Not to tough, but a vampire can summon 6 per level.
The average wild vamp is level 1d4 (average of 2, and they work in packs of up to 24 members.
So at full strength they can ambust the party and augment their own numbers with up to 186 (check my math) wolves assisting them.
One good tactic is to have summoned wolves go after weapons such as guns, squirtguns, and crosses.
Another good tactic is to have vampires in wolf form mixed in with the actual wolves.

6. Summon Fog. Okay, they can't do this until 7th level, but it covers a 1 mile area and limits vision to 14'!
The books never say that vamps can see through the fog, but they certainly can use their sonar in bat form.
And their claws in Bat form do 1d6+PS (average of around +10 bonus), which isn't too bad considering you could swoop in, attack, and fly back out before taking too much damage or maybe before even getting hit at all. Or just fly overhead and chuck a grenade at the party from 20' up.
And, of course, Vampires In The Mists... vamps in mist form can perfectly blend with the fog. They can use it as cover for both attacks and retreats. They can use it to keep things in melee range, and to negate a lot of the effectiveness of crosses.

7. Kamakazi Attacks. 1 Vampire + 1 Dynamite Vest = 1 great kamakazi attack where there's no real risk of suicide. Just run into the middle of the party and BOOM. That should soften them up enough for melee.
Wild vamps are probably not smart enough to do this on their own, but there's no reason why a secondary or master vamp couldn't make them do it.
Don't got any dynamite?
No Problem!
Turn to bat form, fly really high up, and swoop down at 50 mph of full speed. Then turn to normal form in time to slam right into an enemy. Body Block/Tackle for 1d4 + whatever the damage for weight and speed would be.

8. In case your vamps run into nightbane who have big, chompy teeth or fangs of their own, vamps are all immune to poison and disease.
No reason not to douse yourself with poison before you take on that chompy guy.
Or at least roll around in some raw sewage for a bit (not in your good clothes).
Heck, you can also electrify yourself. You won't take damage, but anybody touching you will...

9. Weapons. Vamps aren't stupid. They generally don't feel like they need technology, but they'll use weapons with no problem. It gets the pray to lie still and bleed long enough to feed.

10. Don't EVER just say "You see a group of vampires sitting in the room. Roll for initiative." (Unless they aren't actual vampires... like if the party stumbled onto a LARP or something. Then it's good for a laugh...)

A better version would be:
"You see a couple dozen heavily armed thugs waiting in the room. They all have various weapons ranging from clubs and knives to guns and swords. They appear to be wearing gang colors of some sort, and they're NOT happy to see you...(Roll for initiative)"

That way the PCs will likely waste quite a bit of time and effort before they even realize what they're fighting.

Or, if you want them to know that they're up against vampires...

"Quite suddenly, a heavy fog rolls in. This is definitely not natural weather; it came right out of nowhere and covers everything in sight. You can no longer see much of anything any more than 4' in front of you... although you can make out vague shapes up to 10' beyond that.
Suddenly, you hear a wolf howl... Then another, then another, until they join together in a chorus that sounds like a pack of 100, all singing a dirge just for you. The howling cuts off, to be replaced by a skittering, scuttling sound....And it's coming towards you."

By this time, defensive positions will be taken.
Not that it will do much good against a swarm of thousands of roaches or rats. They will lose their next attack to the swarm, and that's when the wolves attack, along with the vampires in wolf form. A normal wolf dies rather easily and does only 1d6 SDC, but a vampire wolf will be tougher and do 5d6 SDC per bite. This will keep them guessing a bit.
As soon as a vampire is wounded, they can slink off into the fog to regenerate, then come back into the fray.
Worst case for the vamps, they should still be able to mess the party up royally and escape altogether if things get too rough.
And it can work without the fog, it's just cooler that way. If you don't want to toss in a 7th level vampire, just use swarms of flies to blind them instead.

[Sentinel]

KC is so dead on target with his presentation of a scenario with Vamps. Of course the players will be all ready for them, if the GM tells them what to expect. A little mystery goes a long way with the soulless undead legions of the night. Lousy blood-sucking vermin...

[Mike Taylor]

No I don't know the boards other wookie who is it?

LJavelle, a.k.a LJ. He's been our resident wookiee for the last four years. But there's always room for one more.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC: Doesn't fog and mist hamper sonar?

I don't see how it would... it doesn't really hamper sound, does it?

[Sir_Spirit]

No I don't know the boards other wookie who is it?

LJ, he's known as a wookie because of his fuzzy pants.

[Sentinel]

Tyciol wrote:
Don't you guys think that vampires would be so much more encouraging to play if they had good experience tables? I hate that limitatin, they
look like neat chars.


My vote is no: I never want to see Vampires as player characters. I much prefer that they be the bloodsucking soulless monsters they are for player characters to hunt and be hunted by, and to stake with no bad feelings. I do not go in for the Vampire chic culture, and I never have.

[Sentinel]

I don't allow the Undead as player characters.
Psi-Stalkers are a different story.
I definitely stay away from Wampyres is my story line.