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..Good topic.

..I think the CS is easily analogous to the United States of today, and the anti-CS rehtoric we see in these threads is both typical of the kind of response you could expect out of a CS citizen towards magic, and representative of a subconsious realization of how much like these hated characters the originators of said posts are.

..Our government is filled with egotistical people with no concern with the negative side-effects of their self-agrandizing actions, and the average citizen is oblivious to what really goes on, and blissfully so. They believe what they want to instead of the undeniable truth that surrounds them, and live ignorant of their own guilt.

..Insert the CS in the above and these same ignorant citizens will go "Yeah! They're evil!" without a moments hisitation, the spittle of rabid hatred flying from their lips. But read as posted above and they will get just as angry in reverse.

..People are sorely in need of a wake up call, both in our reality and the world of the CS in Rifts.

..I'm holding out for an Alien Invasion ala ID4, or Stargate SG-1's season finale.

-Mike >8]

Janissary wrote:....I also feel that the CS has very little in common with the modern day U.S.A. The CS was after all, by the books own words, modeled after WWII Germany. Both are totalitarian dictatorships,

..And the so called democratic republic we live in isn't?

very militant,

..You admit that one, so I'll leave it...

bent on world conquest,

..We have dominated the world. Economically instead of militarly doesn't make it less so...

believe in their racial superiority

..Social instead of racial, but the superiority belief is clearly there.

and believe in it so much they exterminate those who are not of their race. The U.S.A. is none of these things. Well I suppose you could make an argument for the militant part but still nothing on the level of WWII.
To summarize, yes some people have a hate of the CS bordering on irrational. By the same token their are those on the side of the CS who are the same way.
In case anyone was curious and hadn't either guessed it or seen my posts on the subject, I am a moderate. Yes the CS does some very evil things. Yes the CS leadership is composed of some very bad people. However the average citizen is NOT evil. Nor is the average soldier. It states this in the books.

..The same fits the USA.

-Mike >8]

well said Malignor.

Fact is a) I've never played a CS person myself, and the only cases where I saw CS OCCs as players were when the involved characters were renegades who had "seen the error of their ways" (like that half squad of psionically endowed soldiers : 1 major psionic military specialist, 1 minor psi tech officer, a psi stalker & 2 dog boys who slaughtered the rest of the squad and hijacked the Mk V APC to flee their life as 2nd class citizens)

b) I can hardly think of a real CS based campaign where the players would be 100% pure white heroes... I mean, it *is* CS policy to execute everyone who can read and acts like he's as little as 99% faithful to the coalition, anybody who advocates learning, anybody who even so much as dabbles with magic and any intelligent being that is not 100% earth human, non combattant, females, kids and other "innocent" ones included...

I guess you *could* set up a campaign that glossed over all this and where the CS was a truly heroic Champion of Humankind fighting for its survival agains the Demons from Beyond, power crazed sorcerers, invaders from the Rifts and other commie-subversive nasties trying to bring down order and society and make us vulnerable... but would it still truly a CS campaign?

I mean, as some other people said... it *is* in shades of grey. Millions of humans DO owe their survival to CS protection... only it is a shame that they push protectiveness to atrocity level.

Okay enough of the anti-US posts please... the US and the CS have so little in common, trying to draw parallels only exposes ignorance. In spite of what some leftists like to preach, the US government isn't modelled after Nazi Germany.

Now for the rest... I agree Selina, it's shades of grey... I think I've made that fairly clear in my posts about the CS. Ya the CS have in their world saved alot of humanity, but in doing so they have begun to destroy that which is human.

Personally, I see the Coalition States as nothing more than a storytelling element. As long as that in kept in mind by everyone, there should be no degenerating into arguments over whether the policies of a nonexistent organization are good or evil. The CS does not exist, so who cares beyond the context of the game that one may or may not be playing in? When one's own emotions get this involved over something from a game, I think it's time to put away the books and dice and go out for a walk-- and maybe even a beer or two.

I loves Rifts, cos it's full of middle grey area, and evrything is made up of personal perception and belief,my flatmate and have nice debates about the topic of the CS and Tolkeen, FoM, Dbee's, NGR, and soforth, it ends up saying you could not have peace without one or the other, so it is a essentral(spelling) part of the world.

the Cs makes it's own trouble from it's actions... just like today!


two thumbz up....

nicely said....*gives Rift Jumper a clap of the round kind*....

Rift Jumper wrote:Here's the way I see things. Mind you, this is my OPINION and I feel fully entitled to it, just as you are to yours.

The CS is one of, if not the biggest mixed blessing the world of Rifts has. The way it is developed, it's the greatest savior of humanity. They viciously defend a home in a world of continuing chaos. It's a dangerous place outside the walls of the safe cities, and they're trying to make it safer for the "original" owners of the world.

Problem is, it's got a very totalitarian government. They have a narrow view of who should be allowed on their planet and aren't taking the time to sort out who's there to find safety and who's there for a bite to eat(or other nefarious reason). They keep the population ignorant so they won't realize that the blinders have been placed on them to keep their view narrow.

So, in the end, you wind up with a giant shade of grey.

As for a CS campaign. The best thing is to have a group that realizes that this is going to be a game of dilemmas. You will face situations where everything you were taught was true and that the beasts of the Rifts are indeed out to get you. But then you recon an "evil" d-bee/magic-user community, and realize that all they want is a safe home to raise their children. What do you do then? What if others in the team are ready to go weapons hot on the place?

Again, grey area.

Very good post. The thing most people don't realize is that the CS is very mutli-faceted in its design (from an objective RPG standpoint). It can be both hero and villian depending upon which perspective you choose to look at it. The rank and file grunts are honestly doing what they feel is the 'right thing' and therefore are viewed as heroes from the civilians within the CS borders, yet we as readers on the outside looking in can clearly see the evil at the top of the CS hierarchy.

IMO the great thing about the CS is that you can spin a campaign off of both perceptions. But that's because I take a step back and look at the CS as a plot/story element in the game itself and not as a real organization (which I believe to be the problem with most of these arguments -- people treat the CS as if it really does exist).

Oh, and to quote Vrykolas2k:

Vrykolas2k wrote:enough of the anti-US posts please

*steps onto soapbox*
I'm in the USAF, and I don't appreciate people bad-mouthing my current boss. On November 11, if you're old enough to vote, please do so. It's the greatest part of our system. The ability to make changes. If you don't like my boss, affect change and vote. It's your privilege, so don't waste it. Many don't get that right, and many died to give it to you.

Some of them were my friends.

*steps down from the soapbox*

Hear, hear! Get back on that soapbox, Jumper -- you do a good job from there.

In the words of Swamp Thing, "do not bring your evil here."

This forum isn't the place for political mudslinging. If we want to subject ourselves to the far left's Michael Moore/MoveOn-type propaganda and malicious Bushthulu references, as well as the far right's equally irrational counter-muckracking, we'll go to Sound Off to get our fix (that's what it's there for, after all) and then make our decisions at the voting booth come November (and if you are of legal voting age and DON'T vote then IMO you have no right to gripe regardless of how things turn out).

I come to the Rifts forum because I want to discuss RIFTS and not Democrats or Republicans... and those who do decide to infect this forum with political crap only make themselves look like hatemongering idiots in my eyes and lose any/all credibility they might have once had.

..I stand by my analogy. I never said anything about Democrats or Republicans.

..The Coalition at it's core has a true and good ideal, the survival of the species and the return to better times when humanity was on top.

..The USA at it's core has true and good ideals, truth, liberty and justice.


..Yet to the world outside (in both the CS and the USA), these are evil emipires determined to do what they want at everyone elses expense. The people in the governments of both perpetrate this image by not countering it and in many (evil) cases furthering it through ego-centric self-agrandisement.

..The question presented was:

...What is the cause for the passionate and aggravated response, not toward just the CS itself as a concept, but toward any modern-day real person who might suggest the CS is less than 100% evil and unjustifiable in their actions? I mean, it's not as if the CS supporters can take down the names of the opposition and pass them to the gestapo for collection (or would, if they could).

..I answered it with the above analogy; the evil of the CS is too similar to the Evil of the US and people get violently angry when cornered on their fragile reality. So my conjecture was that anti-CS posters are rabidly pro-US for reasons they themselves don't understand. It's a simple bit of logic to go from that to "Pro-CS posters are not rabidly so because they can see the good in the imperfect CS, just as they can see the good in the imperfect USA".

..Don't they teach reading comprehension anymore? Half the responses on this thread don't even address the point of the main post....

-Mike >8]

MADMANMIKE wrote:..Don't they teach reading comprehension anymore?

having just come through our modern education system, I can tell you this:

yes, they teach it, but with the current polocy of pushing studnets though grades so they don't look bad, they arn't required to actually LEARN it to pass.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I stand by my analogy. I never said anything about Democrats or Republicans.

..The Coalition at it's core has a true and good ideal, the survival of the species and the return to better times when humanity was on top.

..The USA at it's core has true and good ideals, truth, liberty and justice.


..Yet to the world outside (in both the CS and the USA), these are evil emipires determined to do what they want at everyone elses expense. The people in the governments of both perpetrate this image by not countering it and in many (evil) cases furthering it through ego-centric self-agrandisement.

..The question presented was:

...What is the cause for the passionate and aggravated response, not toward just the CS itself as a concept, but toward any modern-day real person who might suggest the CS is less than 100% evil and unjustifiable in their actions? I mean, it's not as if the CS supporters can take down the names of the opposition and pass them to the gestapo for collection (or would, if they could).

..I answered it with the above analogy; the evil of the CS is too similar to the Evil of the US and people get violently angry when cornered on their fragile reality. So my conjecture was that anti-CS posters are rabidly pro-US for reasons they themselves don't understand. It's a simple bit of logic to go from that to "Pro-CS posters are not rabidly so because they can see the good in the imperfect CS, just as they can see the good in the imperfect USA".

..Don't they teach reading comprehension anymore? Half the responses on this thread don't even address the point of the main post....

No, you didn't specifically mention Democrats or Republicans by name... but your assertion that the US is corrupted by evil at the top of its hierarchy fits in a little too conveniently with the current anti-Bush hatemongering presented by the far left for me to believe it to be 'purely coincidental' and not yet another cheap shot at the current President.

But just for the sake of argument, and because I'm still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in light of previous level-headed discussions we've had in the past, let's go back and look at that original post:

From a logical standpoint, I find your analogy to be flawed because you start from the conceit that both the CS and US are more alike than they truly are. By far the biggest problem I have is your assertion that the citizens of the US are as 'in the dark' as the CS ones.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I think the CS is easily analogous to the United States of today, and the anti-CS rehtoric we see in these threads is both typical of the kind of response you could expect out of a CS citizen towards magic, and representative of a subconsious realization of how much like these hated characters the originators of said posts are.

..Our government is filled with egotistical people with no concern with the negative side-effects of their self-agrandizing actions, and the average citizen is oblivious to what really goes on, and blissfully so. They believe what they want to instead of the undeniable truth that surrounds them, and live ignorant of their own guilt.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that even with the plethora of news networks -- CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, Headline News, etc. -- as well as the multitude of newspapers and magazines out there that we are all ignorant of current events, even though every single media outlet seems to be 'blowing the whistle' on government wrongdoing almost once a week? Or are you suggesting that because most of us don't get our news from groups such as MoveOn we're ignorant of the 'truth?'

Of course we have self-serving individuals in our government. We always have, we always will. It's part of that whole 'political power' deal. There's no such thing as a perfect government -- but the great thing about democracies (and sorry to burst your bubble, but the USA IS STILL a democracy) is that these people can be voted out when their self-serving practices cancel out the good they're doing. If you want to take this current President as an example, he himself will be voted out if enough voting citizens want him out. Even if he isn't, he can only serve one more term before he is forced out by law.

By contrast, a true totalitarian government not only contains self-serving individuals but also prevents removal of said individuals by the absence of free elections. Nobody elected Karl Prosek as Emperor, and nobody can vote him out of office over the whole 'Siege of Tolkeen' scenario.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..Insert the CS in the above and these same ignorant citizens will go "Yeah! They're evil!" without a moments hisitation, the spittle of rabid hatred flying from their lips. But read as posted above and they will get just as angry in reverse.

..People are sorely in need of a wake up call, both in our reality and the world of the CS in Rifts.

Again, I find your assertion that people are 'blissfully oblivious' to current events flawed and downright ridiculous in the current age of information. The 'undeniable truth' is that people today have unprecedented access to information and news from both domestic and international sources -- and any news agency (particularly in America) that goes too far in skewing that information to the right or to the left will be revealed to the masses and their credibility (and ratings) will suffer. In short, it's not in the agencies' self-interests to obscure or hide 'the truth' from the public.

Granted, one has to actually read/watch the news for this available information to be useful... but that's individual's fault. You can only fault the government when it prevents the information from being distributed to the public.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I'm holding out for an Alien Invasion ala ID4, or Stargate SG-1's season finale.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume this is just you being facetious.

The point is simply whether or not you agree with the current government, trying to compare the US and the CS by saying they're both evil at the top is still comparing apples to oranges and intentionally or not comes across like you're bringing a tired political argument into a place where it's not appropriate.

..Okay, first things first.

..I have nothing but respect for you and the job that you have done for me and all the other people in this world with any margin of freedom. Thank you.

..Now, Clarification. I am not a liberal. I'm a moderate extremist. On the rare occassion that I do choose to enter a political discussion, I throw the arguements that are expected out and then tear apart the memorized rehearsed responses that are volleyed back. I'm aware of both sides of the 'issues' and only wish that both sides could get over themselves and look at the real issues that are being obscured by the ones they grab onto.

..From what I can tell, most votes for Democrats and Republicans are votes in fear. Fear that the guy that seems to think the least like the voter will win.

..Regardless, let me be abundantly clear. I'm not talking politics here, I'm addressing the question that was presented at the start of this thread, which I might add has yet to be addressed adequately by anyone else that has posted here.

..I agree that people have to vote to enact change. However, that system is easily subverted, so I don't have an optimistic belief that anyone will get voted out of office even if the "Majority" doesn't want them there.

..The essense of the above statement is summed up in my answer to your disbelief that most citizens are ill-informed. It's a simple fact. People don't care enough to pay attention. Even now that most people are suffering more for the economy and living in fear of terrorist attacks, they don't care enough to check all the news sources and form an educated opinion.

..In the last presidential election, a record voter turnout of 54% of registered voters impressed everyone. Yet the registered voters in the country only make up about 15% of the citizens who are eligible to register to vote. That makes a turn out of 8% of the Americans who could vote a record. Tell me that's not a lack of interest.

..And we do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Democratic Republic. We elect representatives to vote on the issues that affect our lives, we don't vote on the issues that affect our lives ourselves. There are no representatives in a Democracy.

..I've only a couple of weeks ago heard of MoveOn and wasn't impressed with the woman representing them who continuously plugged her new book.

..Dude, you fell right into the trap of my arguement. Taking an emotional stance, justified or not, is the failure in a debate. Rise above the rants of the other side and take the high ground. You are from the high ground, so just step back to it.

..I love my country and the freedoms that it's constitution provided. But I feel that all men and women are created equal whether they were born within this countries imaginary borders or not. I am a member of the human race. We are all equal, so it's time we started treating eachother and ourselves that way. This is the flaw in our system, and it's the flaw in the CS as well, us against them. It's easy for contemporary free people to condemn an imaginary government for the persecution of non-humans when these same people have never met a non-human, and haven't been raised to hate non-humans.

..And the Alien Invasion thing is a good solution to our worlds petty unimportant differences (replacing other humans on the "Them" side with non-humans). It wouldn't be hard to fake, and if someone tried, it'd be one conspiracy I'd stand behind whole-heartedly.

Okay, let's try and reach an accord here so we can move on with the thread...

MADMANMIKE wrote:..Okay, first things first.

..I have nothing but respect for you and the job that you have done for me and all the other people in this world with any margin of freedom. Thank you.

And thank you. There is still respect for you on my end, and I would like to apologize for any statements that may have indicated otherwise.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..Now, Clarification. I am not a liberal. I'm a moderate extremist. On the rare occassion that I do choose to enter a political discussion, I throw the arguements that are expected out and then tear apart the memorized rehearsed responses that are volleyed back. I'm aware of both sides of the 'issues' and only wish that both sides could get over themselves and look at the real issues that are being obscured by the ones they grab onto.

..From what I can tell, most votes for Democrats and Republicans are votes in fear. Fear that the guy that seems to think the least like the voter will win.

I recently got into a discussion with my cousin-in-law much like that. She was touting the virtues of Moore's lastest movie, but after she realized that I was poking holes in her (his) assertions she changed tactics and claimed that 'for Mac's sake (my 18-month-old) we need to get the Republicans out of office as they're going to reinstate the draft.'

I wholeheartedly agree with you though that too often people aren't voting FOR someone as much as they are AGAINST someone, and that is one of the worst things one can do. When you say "he/she can't be any worse than what we've got," all too often you wind up with exactly that.

And I consider myself a moderate as well, mainly because I find the extreme members of both major parties to be equally distasteful and out of touch with what the vast majority of Americans want.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..Regardless, let me be abundantly clear. I'm not talking politics here, I'm addressing the question that was presented at the start of this thread, which I might add has yet to be addressed adequately by anyone else that has posted here.

That kinda depends on your definition of 'adequately,' but to each his/her own and I've no argument there.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I agree that people have to vote to enact change. However, that system is easily subverted, so I don't have an optimistic belief that anyone will get voted out of office even if the "Majority" doesn't want them there.

I don't think I can agree with you over the 'easily subverted' part. Yes, it's possible but there are safeguards in place and at least most of the time the majority gets what the majority wants overall.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..The essense of the above statement is summed up in my answer to your disbelief that most citizens are ill-informed. It's a simple fact. People don't care enough to pay attention. Even now that most people are suffering more for the economy and living in fear of terrorist attacks, they don't care enough to check all the news sources and form an educated opinion.

I already conceded the point that someone has to utilize the information that's out there for it to be truly useful. However, there is a clear difference between people not paying attention and a government suppressing that information so the people never have a chance to see it. Citizens of the US fall into the first category, citizens of the CS fall into the second. That's the fundamental issue I had with your 'blissful oblivious population' statement, as it appeared that you weren't making that distinction or at least weren't being adequately clear on it.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..In the last presidential election, a record voter turnout of 54% of registered voters impressed everyone. Yet the registered voters in the country only make up about 15% of the citizens who are eligible to register to vote. That makes a turn out of 8% of the Americans who could vote a record. Tell me that's not a lack of interest.

I'm not going to argue that in the least. No, I pretty much agree that it's downright shameful that people would be impressed by only 54% turnout. I've always maintained that if you can vote and don't do so, you have no right what so ever to gripe about what's going on.

And I voted for Perot in '92 because neither Clinton nor the elder Bush impressed me, so you can see I don't believe in such a concept as 'wasted votes.'

MADMANMIKE wrote:..And we do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Democratic Republic. We elect representatives to vote on the issues that affect our lives, we don't vote on the issues that affect our lives ourselves. There are no representatives in a Democracy.

That to me is a mere technicality as the representatives are still elected in a democratic matter and therefore still falls under the umbrella term of 'democracy.' That's probably a failing on my part, but that's my take anyway.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I've only a couple of weeks ago heard of MoveOn and wasn't impressed with the woman representing them who continuously plugged her new book.

I haven't met too many people known for their intelligence who have been impressed by MoveOn. Amused, yes, but not impressed.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..Dude, you fell right into the trap of my arguement. Taking an emotional stance, justified or not, is the failure in a debate. Rise above the rants of the other side and take the high ground. You are from the high ground, so just step back to it.

I got emotional not due to the subject of the original question, but rather because I hate when people take a subject and twist it into a tasteless cheap shot at one group or another. We've all seen it happen here and elsewhere, and quite frankly I get deeply offended when someone 'infects this forum with their political crap.'

Your analogy -- intentional or not -- still does sound very similar to a lot of the far left's anti-Bush propaganda of late, and it sounded very much like you were trying to use the thread to take a cheap shot. That may not have been your intention, but that was the way in which it was perceived by myself and apparently by others.

But you're right in the fact that I did take an emotional stand regardless of where I took it. Point conceded there.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I love my country and the freedoms that it's constitution provided. But I feel that all men and women are created equal whether they were born within this countries imaginary borders or not. I am a member of the human race. We are all equal, so it's time we started treating eachother and ourselves that way. This is the flaw in our system, and it's the flaw in the CS as well, us against them. It's easy for contemporary free people to condemn an imaginary government for the persecution of non-humans when these same people have never met a non-human, and haven't been raised to hate non-humans.

Dude, you need to frame the first part of that paragraph. It's absolutely beautiful.

It's not a flaw in just our system, unfortunately. Man is by and large a social animal, and we as a species tend to group ourselves by perceived similarites -- be they racial, religious, geopolitical, economic, or social -- and villify/persecute those who don't fall within that grouping. It's happened for as long as we've recorded our history, and it'll probably continue in some form as long as humanity is still around. The most we can do is diminish it as much as possible.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..And the Alien Invasion thing is a good solution to our worlds petty unimportant differences (replacing other humans on the "Them" side with non-humans). It wouldn't be hard to fake, and if someone tried, it'd be one conspiracy I'd stand behind whole-heartedly.

It's strange of me to think this, but I think the discovery of sentient life on other planets (maybe even if it's non-sentient) would do wonders for the advancement of peace and cooperation here on Earth. Outside influences tend to cause bickering factions to forget their minor grievances and work together for the 'greater good,' and finding an extraterrestrial race just might make people think about more important things than their political stripe, their skin color, their ethnic background, or how much money they do/don't have.

So maybe that's not a bad idea after all...



Anyway, what say we put this behind us and move on with things shall we? There are too many good discussions out there for us to get bogged down too much with this one.

Uncle Servo wrote:...And thank you. There is still respect for you on my end, and I would like to apologize for any statements that may have indicated otherwise.

..Actually I saw no statement that would suggest that to me, so no apology necessary, but thank you anyway.

I recently got into a discussion with my cousin-in-law much like that. She was touting the virtues of Moore's lastest movie, but after she realized that I was poking holes in her (his) assertions she changed tactics and claimed that 'for Mac's sake (my 18-month-old) we need to get the Republicans out of office as they're going to reinstate the draft.'

I wholeheartedly agree with you though that too often people aren't voting FOR someone as much as they are AGAINST someone, and that is one of the worst things one can do. When you say "he/she can't be any worse than what we've got," all too often you wind up with exactly that.

And I consider myself a moderate as well, mainly because I find the extreme members of both major parties to be equally distasteful and out of touch with what the vast majority of Americans want.

..I think we're at about the same place in the political spectrum here; I'm sure you won't let it sway you, but for what it's worth, I wouldn't let the cousin-in-law's draft arguement sway me...

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I agree that people have to vote to enact change. However, that system is easily subverted, so I don't have an optimistic belief that anyone will get voted out of office even if the "Majority" doesn't want them there.

I don't think I can agree with you over the 'easily subverted' part. Yes, it's possible but there are safeguards in place and at least most of the time the majority gets what the majority wants overall.

..Having been denied the vote on the right to carry concealed issue, and having my parents denied their vote in the last presidential election, both for screw-ups in the local rolls, and the fact that the exit polls, our only unbiased measure of the actual vote count, had their computers mysteriously crash during the "landslide Republican victory" at the midterm elections all suggests to me that the vote is easily subverted. It's like Keno. You tell them what you want, and later they come back and tell you whether or not you won.

I already conceded the point that someone has to utilize the information that's out there for it to be truly useful. However, there is a clear difference between people not paying attention and a government suppressing that information so the people never have a chance to see it. Citizens of the US fall into the first category, citizens of the CS fall into the second. That's the fundamental issue I had with your 'blissful oblivious population' statement, as it appeared that you weren't making that distinction or at least weren't being adequately clear on it.

..I feel that although MoveOn is mostly whacko, they can't be too far off in their assertion that the press has become lazy. They run from big story to big story and gloss over whatever their owner doesn't want to pass on. Each news source will give you a different story about the same thing, so what can you believe? I don't see this as being much different than a state controled media only telling what they want you to hear, you just have more biased sources to sort through. In the end though, only reading between the lines is likely to garner the truth. I only listen to NPR, and watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart myself....

That to me is a mere technicality as the representatives are still elected in a democratic matter and therefore still falls under the umbrella term of 'democracy.' That's probably a failing on my part, but that's my take anyway.

..The thing is, we have the technology to enact a true democracy, but this state will never give up the power to let us use it. If there were publick net based voting booths on every block and every citizen was able to vote on two to four issues each week, we'd be able to accomplish more in a months time than this government has in decades. Then the lobbyists would have to convince us with a good arguement instead of some politician with a cash donation.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I love my country and the freedoms that it's constitution provided. But I feel that all men and women are created equal whether they were born within this countries imaginary borders or not. I am a member of the human race. We are all equal, so it's time we started treating eachother and ourselves that way..

..I'd sig that if my links weren't so long... It's the credo for my future party, (name borrowed from a GURPS supliment) The United Peoples Of Earth.

It's not a flaw in just our system, unfortunately. Man is by and large a social animal, and we as a species tend to group ourselves by perceived similarites -- be they racial, religious, geopolitical, economic, or social -- and villify/persecute those who don't fall within that grouping. It's happened for as long as we've recorded our history, and it'll probably continue in some form as long as humanity is still around. The most we can do is diminish it as much as possible.

..True, but isn't that what life is all about? Trying to rise above our nature and become something better?

It's strange of me to think this, but I think the discovery of sentient life on other planets (maybe even if it's non-sentient) would do wonders for the advancement of peace and cooperation here on Earth. Outside influences tend to cause bickering factions to forget their minor grievances and work together for the 'greater good,' and finding an extraterrestrial race just might make people think about more important things than their political stripe, their skin color, their ethnic background, or how much money they do/don't have.

So maybe that's not a bad idea after all...

..NASA has a new telescope going up in 2015(cross your fingers) that will be able to filter out 99% of a stars light, so that it can focus in on planets that orbit them. Hubble gave us the map, now the new one will give us the real estate listings. Anyone who can comprehend probability and has an inkling as to the size and age of our galaxy, and the fact that it is small in our local cluster of galaxies, knows that the notion that we are the only sentient life around is beyond absurd. The trick is for us to maintian a civilization long enough for the paradigm shift that would come with the majority accepting that fact to happen. The Alien invasion is a short cut...

Anyway, what say we put this behind us and move on with things shall we? There are too many good discussions out there for us to get bogged down too much with this one.

..Agreed. And I think that pretty much sews up this thread quite nicely myself.

-Mike >8]

Having just read this post and all of its replies I have to say I'm impressed. Not that too much was brought up that I was unawares of, but more that two people on a message board could come to an amicable understanding and agreement. I mean you both actually conceded points and moved on to other relavant issues. Wow. Throw in a dash of patriotism and higher human spirit and I almost want to save the whole thread!

Kudos.

NoJack wrote:Having just read this post and all of its replies I have to say I'm impressed. Not that too much was brought up that I was unawares of, but more that two people on a message board could come to an amicable understanding and agreement. I mean you both actually conceded points and moved on to other relavant issues. Wow. Throw in a dash of patriotism and higher human spirit and I almost want to save the whole thread!

Kudos.

What can I say? We're brilliant like that...

But thanks for the kind words.

MattBaby wrote:>> Can't we all just get along?
>No. That would suck.

ROFL... and once again... I have to agree with mattbaby.

..I think the answer to the question can be boiled down to age. Young people have more of a tendency to see things in black and white, good and evil, with no real in between.

..The older a person gets, and the more experience they gain in the real world, the deeper they are likely to look into the moitivations of what the younger generations more readily dismiss as evil.

..I'm over 30, so I'm more able to see the gray. The younger you are, the more difficult it is to see.

-Mike >8]

I agree with Janissary, it all boils down to, what we see as individuals as good, evil or grey area, I do see alot of grey areas in rifts, also see things as a greater evil oi the world of rifts than the coalition.


even ARCHIE thinks the Coalition has a savour of the human race...

ARCHIE was willing to help the CS during the SoT, if it wasn't for Hagan....

he is really likely to ally with the CS if anything attacked the CS...

first i must apologize to the writer of this topic for engaging in the anti vs pro cs topic i can't sit out ne longer. second as regards to what malignor said about the cat analogy a cat cannot be judged on right or wrong because it is an unintelligent creature. if it were intelligent its instincts of territory would be judged. and by the way for cats i still spank mine when it attacks other animals even if it is the nature of it. and the thing about the CS citizens being happy how can it be wrong is the same as a child whose father makes them act and think how he wants from the time they are children. just because they are happy doesn't mean the CS isn't oppressing them it just means they are ignorant. and the soldier thing the taliban who ran a plane into a building couple years ago thought what they were doing was for the greater good also. that is y i have said b4 the lower ranking officers may in fact be heroes, ignorant heroes but still heroes. but heres is the problem these heroes,however misguided they might be, are doing wrong and unless u have the time to show them the truth of it (which i wish was always possible but its not) when u meet them on a battlefield u kill them because even though they don't know it they are doing wrong. know that is all i have to say about mal's post. now in response to what salina said i tend to agree. the reason we get so over zealous about people like the CS is because we can see ourselves in this situation,which i might add was brilliant on the part of all those who created rifts, i tend to be anti CS bc in life i am against those of a similiar breed here. i once broke my hand on a mans skull because he thought that just because a girl was black he had the right to curse at her and do other things that i won't describe here. i admit my way of solving the problem was also not a good one but you get my point. as for myself in rifts i am not gonna sit here and lie. i would never stick my neck out for anyone except those i care for unless i had a huge backup because unlike in real life you might think your about to fight a normal person but in reality your about to break your hand or arm on the 1st punch bc that thing is mdc. and also i would place my family in the CS at least til i could get them to lazlo there are alot more CS cities. that does not mean however that i would not try to sabotage the CS in some way however small it might be. sorry for this long winded rant here but i needed to get that out.

EDIT: by the way mal i didn't mean for my arguements toward you to be so mean in nature sorry about that guy.

well mal it appears we have hit a stalemate. I understand your opinion and you seem to understand mine. By further arguing I will not change your opinion and you will not change mine. by the way those were some good points you made in your first arguement and this last one. A part of me wants to continue to show my opinions differences about your last post but mostly I don't. I don't see a point in argueing when both sides are not going to change. So I said earlier we have a stalemate. Well played my good man.

MADMANMIKE wrote:..I think the answer to the question can be boiled down to age. Young people have more of a tendency to see things in black and white, good and evil, with no real in between.

..The older a person gets, and the more experience they gain in the real world, the deeper they are likely to look into the moitivations of what the younger generations more readily dismiss as evil.

..I'm over 30, so I'm more able to see the gray. The younger you are, the more difficult it is to see.

-Mike >8]

That's a pretty good analogy. It takes age and maturity to build up multiple facets to one's perception (of course, even with those two it's no guarantee).

One of the things I've liked about the CS in terms of a literary/game element is that it can be viewed from both sides and used as such. However, that requires stepping back from the environment of the game and looking at it from an analytical viewpoint.

Another angle would be that most online debates do tend to be rather polarized. Would we take the same harsh, disdainful attitudes if we were discussing the subject face-to-face in real time? Not likely. It's been proven time and again that the online anonymity gives folks a sense of security and that emboldens them to be more radical in their statements.

However, I think Selina did bring one good point to light that we've all danced around or just missed in our own posts -- the people living in Rifts Earth are under different conditions than we are today. After all, it's easy to be a judgemental idealist when you don't have to worry about monsters ripping you apart.

a very good topic and my compliments.

i personally do not see the CS as an entirely evil federation, yet at the same time they are not wholly good. much like you say a grey more than a black and white. And for all those ANTI-CS "fanatics" all i have to say is put yourself in an average CS citizens shoes. Imagine being born into a world where your whole life non-humans are refered to as evil, monsters, baby killers and so on. You would probably turn out the same way as some of the games favorite NPC villains, and who could blame you.

On the flip side imagine growing up in an autonomous kingdom where humans and D-BEEs live in harmony and the stories your parents would tell you "Eat all your food or the deadboys will get you" stuff like that.

for the most part i think it may go back to the Nature vs Nurture argument. Would Prosek have been such an evil bastard if he were born in Lazlo? We will never know, But don't consider either side right or wrong, good or evil, put yourself in there shoes and think it through.

Even after you do so you may still think that the CS is a blight on the earth, just think.