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actually did have that come up once, belive it or not. most likely, most towns wouldn't really care, too busy worrying about survivng. this one took place in Kingsdale, and I premited it. though it was girl/girl rather than boy/boy.

though when you get right down to it, not only do most games not really get that far into character relationships (that I'm aware of at any rate) but the answer would reflect the veiws of the particular group and GM in particular.

on a government scale I think it would depend on the religions social, customs, and advancement of the government. On an individual basis misfit is right i see characters picking more bi or gay female characters than male. its probly just because of the type of people playing as misfit also said. but i find it funny sometimes to do with npcs because once it started a fued between two PCs. (one was against it one for rest of group didn't care) and another time a spy was trying to seduce a female office worker so he could learn how to bypass security systems when he crossed the line with her and he decked him one in the face. the rest of the group loved that

Misfit KotLD wrote:Online I have a character with a total of 4 wives now, and they take care of temselves happily. Of course two of them are designer sex slaves. But I see it as being a region to region issue. Some places won't care, some will break out the kindling.

*EDIT* I also have noticed the trend for the Lesbian and bi female characters yet almost no gay male characters. Probably something to do with the demographic of gamers.

dont look at me, theirs only 2-3 regular Gay men in my group including the GM, I still have a Lesbian and her Bi partner showing up, and a hetro couple. (yes both game)

This is indeed an interesting topic which I do have to point out a a thought process that seems to pop up alot around here when pertaining to Rifts:

The cataclysm happens in 94 years and after a "Golden Age of Man", looking in how far we have come as a society since 1910...I feel that alot of views come from the feeling that the human race as a whole goes into a rut from 2004-12/2098...if that is the case, stop the world...I wanna get off.

Now I know there is also another 289 (roughly) years between the Coming of the Rifts and 101 PA when Rifts starts and another 8 years to the current setting of the game...and ALOT of poo has hit the fan and some parts of society have reverted back to old habits, but in that reversion comes a horde of demons (generally speaking) to worry about.

What I am trying to get at (and I know alot of you wish I would): In a realistic (figuratively speaking) view of Rifts--life is too short to worry where someone else is living their own life, because you don't know when a Demon, Evil mage, Vampiric Menace, or a CS patrol will snuff it out.

My two cents...would like a receipt please?

P.S.: In a semi-related thought...what do you think the average age is for parents considering the possibly high mortality rate of Denizens of Earth (humans specifically) is? younger (early teens) or Older?

Pox wrote: P.S.: In a semi-related thought...what do you think the average age is for parents considering the possibly high mortality rate of Denizens of Earth (humans specifically) is? younger (early teens) or Older?

likely young like it was a fair while ago. proally 14-18. when you're worried about what might happen next and people being killed by reandom events isn't unusual, then you tend not to worry too much about age and go with what you want. live life while you still have it, you never know what might happen.

kathyacker wrote:given (if i remember correctly) that some girls start to have there period at age 10 now-a-days (which was pretty much unheard of over 50 years ago), i'd say that sexual maturation of a rifts girl would be about 14 plus, maybe sooner, but im sure society would view a coupling under 16 or 17 amoral since emotional maturity doesnt really start developing until then. as for males they probably could start around the same age, but of course would probably wait until they became a "man".

dubtful, that's todays veiw certaintly, but this is more like how it was back in teh middle ages, when around 23-24 was considered acceptable.

Actually, in the middle ages, women were often married as young as 12 or 14 yrs old, even those of the nobility, with the exception of those whose father kept them late in the hope of a politically superior match. In these times, the girl of 16 or 17 who was unwed was the exception, not the rule. Even in the more enlightened times of the XVII-XVIII centuries, girls marrying by age 15 or 16 were not uncommon. It was only with the neo puritanism and infantilization of teenagers that came with the Victorian times (1815-1914) that it came to be considered that a girl should not be treated as an adult before 18-20. so, given the new demographic and survival pressure, I'd not be surprised if in Rifts earth, Mommy was still in her teens... and not necessarily the late teens.

Also remember that as late as the 1830, a woman of 30 was regarded as *OLD*... like we now regard people in their 60s and 70s... of course this takes into account the fact that they had begun adult life earlier than nowadays, and that without access to modern medicine, they were likely much more worn and weary than contemporary counterparts... but that state of things might be prevalent in wide areas.

As a last remark... careful about statements like that Kathy: marriages where the groom was much older than the bride did happen, especially in cases when said groom was a rich widower, but the reason we know about them is because they were so much lampooned in comedies of manners and the like, which makes me think that, actually, most men married young (as young as they had the resources to set up a home, that is a breadwinning job), and to girls of their age.

Geronimo wrote:I'm pretty sure that is a secondary issue...
far below "GOOD GOD THAT THING RIPPED MOMMIES ARMS OFF!!!"

Thank you Geronimo, I'll be sigging that if you don't mind.

Geronimo wrote:I'm pretty sure that is a secondary issue...
far below "GOOD GOD THAT THING RIPPED MOMMIES ARMS OFF!!!"

I won't sig it, but I'll quote it!

That's my take on this as well, and quite frankly I'm surprised the thread has lasted this long. It just strikes me as a complete non-issue right up there with "do they have MDC dinner plates in Rifts?"

If you want it in your games, include it. If you don't, then leave it out.

svartalf wrote:Actually, in the middle ages, women were often married as young as 12 or 14 yrs old, even those of the nobility, with the exception of those whose father kept them late in the hope of a politically superior match. In these times, the girl of 16 or 17 who was unwed was the exception, not the rule. Even in the more enlightened times of the XVII-XVIII centuries, girls marrying by age 15 or 16 were not uncommon. It was only with the neo puritanism and infantilization of teenagers that came with the Victorian times (1815-1914) that it came to be considered that a girl should not be treated as an adult before 18-20. so, given the new demographic and survival pressure, I'd not be surprised if in Rifts earth, Mommy was still in her teens... and not necessarily the late teens.

Well put I totally agree. However I have a small problem with what you've said below:

svartalf wrote:Also remember that as late as the 1830, a woman of 30 was regarded as *OLD*... like we now regard people in their 60s and 70s... of course this takes into account the fact that they had begun adult life earlier than nowadays, and that without access to modern medicine, they were likely much more worn and weary than contemporary counterparts... but that state of things might be prevalent in wide areas.

I thought that idea came from the concept that the average life expectancy then was in the 30's. This dosen't mean that most prople lived until they were 30, it's simply a statistical thing because the infant mortality rate was so high that it pushed the average way down. If you made it past adolesence you had a pretty good chance of surviving till you were 40-60.
That was in medieval/pre-industrial times and the biggest killer by far was disease, which tends to kill the very young and very old. In comparison I think the biggest danger in the world of Rifts is being devoured by a nasty beast, which can happen anytime so the statistics are probably different.

z0b wrote:

svartalf wrote:Also remember that as late as the 1830, a woman of 30 was regarded as *OLD*... like we now regard people in their 60s and 70s... of course this takes into account the fact that they had begun adult life earlier than nowadays, and that without access to modern medicine, they were likely much more worn and weary than contemporary counterparts... but that state of things might be prevalent in wide areas.

I thought that idea came from the concept that the average life expectancy then was in the 30's. This dosen't mean that most prople lived until they were 30, it's simply a statistical thing because the infant mortality rate was so high that it pushed the average way down. If you made it past adolesence you had a pretty good chance of surviving till you were 40-60.
That was in medieval/pre-industrial times and the biggest killer by far was disease, which tends to kill the very young and very old. In comparison I think the biggest danger in the world of Rifts is being devoured by a nasty beast, which can happen anytime so the statistics are probably different.

Not quite... Actually, it was quite a surprise to me too... but when I look at trustworthy sources from these times, it *does* look like a 30 yr old was indeed considered as past his prime, or even close to elderly. When you read "La Femme de Trente ans" by Honoré de Balzac, which tells the sad story of a 30 yr old woman who thinks she still can have a love life, the thing is made more than plain. Nowadays, when I think of those comedies of manners from the XVII-XIX c. I wonder if the dirty old men who are after the young girl are not closer to 30 than the 50-60 generally attributed to them (especially when you think of which actors are cast into those roles)

svartalf wrote:

z0b wrote:

svartalf wrote:Also remember that as late as the 1830, a woman of 30 was regarded as *OLD*... like we now regard people in their 60s and 70s... of course this takes into account the fact that they had begun adult life earlier than nowadays, and that without access to modern medicine, they were likely much more worn and weary than contemporary counterparts... but that state of things might be prevalent in wide areas.

I thought that idea came from the concept that the average life expectancy then was in the 30's. This dosen't mean that most prople lived until they were 30, it's simply a statistical thing because the infant mortality rate was so high that it pushed the average way down. If you made it past adolesence you had a pretty good chance of surviving till you were 40-60.
That was in medieval/pre-industrial times and the biggest killer by far was disease, which tends to kill the very young and very old. In comparison I think the biggest danger in the world of Rifts is being devoured by a nasty beast, which can happen anytime so the statistics are probably different.

Not quite... Actually, it was quite a surprise to me too... but when I look at trustworthy sources from these times, it *does* look like a 30 yr old was indeed considered as past his prime, or even close to elderly. When you read "La Femme de Trente ans" by Honoré de Balzac, which tells the sad story of a 30 yr old woman who thinks she still can have a love life, the thing is made more than plain. Nowadays, when I think of those comedies of manners from the XVII-XIX c. I wonder if the dirty old men who are after the young girl are not closer to 30 than the 50-60 generally attributed to them (especially when you think of which actors are cast into those roles)

Hmmm, yeah I definatley think that a woman who wasn't married by the time they were 30 was considered an "old spinster" but that was pretty much true when my Mum was young too. Basically it just meant that if you hadn't been married by that stage you were never going to get a husband and that was very shameful. If people didn't survive past 30 there would be almost no grandparents, but clearly from the sources of the time there were, and some had many children and grandchildren.

Sorry for going a bit off subject but I found another piece of evidence; William Marshal was a famous English 12th Century knight who lived until he was about 94 and fought in all his armor until he was in his 80's. This seemed to be old for then, not 30.
Many of the sword/fencing masters are quite clearly in their 50s or more when they wrote their combat manuals. There are also reports of many old peasants, monks, nuns and merchants, so it wasn't just the rich kings and knights.
I think the same would basically be true of Rifts; if you made it to puberty without dying of some horrible disease or starvation then you had a good chance to live out most of your life.

Oh and on topic here's an ancient Greek quote:

Women for babies, Men for pleasure

Didn't you know most ancient Greeks were gay? Especially the Spartans, and Alexander the Great.

Sorry to rock you boat zob, but the greek were *not* gay.

the practice of homosexuality was widespread (quasi universal I'd guess), but highly codified : grownup warriors would take young teenagers under their tutelage and show them the ropes... just happens they were expected to be so close as to go to bed together. However, all those boy ****g men were also expected to be duly married and to sire kids on their wife. A good sample of this is Achilleus from the Iliad : he was erastes to Patroclos (hence his heaven ripping wrath at seeing Hector kill his lover), but he had good use for his female captives... hence the Briseis crisis which leads to the opening of Iliad, Canto I when he sulks in his tent while Apollo ravages the Achaean camp witha plague.

Actually, a grown man risked infamy if he showed exclusive interest in boys, and none in women ... and rather worse if he was found out to go to bed with other grown men, or to adopt a passive role in male lovemaking.