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and it's in excess o 5,000,000 old-style Death Head SAMAS.

why they don't give all the soldgiers one instead of NORMAL armor is beyond me. . .

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and it's in excess o 5,000,000 old-style Death Head SAMAS.

why they don't give all the soldgiers one instead of NORMAL armor is beyond me. . .

Would've sworn it's a paltry 3 million Sam's. Will have to go look it up.

Mack wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and it's in excess o 5,000,000 old-style Death Head SAMAS.

why they don't give all the soldgiers one instead of NORMAL armor is beyond me. . .

Would've sworn it's a paltry 3 million Sam's. Will have to go look it up.

bah, your right. my bad. I looked it up like I should have done to begin with

ok, let me restate this:

and it's in excess o 3,200,000 old-style Death Head SAMAS.

why they don't give all the soldgiers one instead of NORMAL armor is beyond me. . .

What a joke of a military force. Not even the Colorado Baronies will respect you unless you have at least 4 million Sam's in storage...

Well suposedly they got a lot of that army from the suckers in the Burbs who wanted a shot at themselves or their familys getting into Chitown.

hey... don't apply those standards to this kind of fighting. if Western losses were so low, it was because our troops benefited from an overwhelming technological and organisational superiority... The CS may have had advantage of numbers and raw technology, but Tolkeen made do with fighters that were individually worth their weight in power armor troops, and they had excellent organisation to complement their home ground advantage

TechnoMancer wrote:

Drakenred wrote:Well suposedly they got a lot of that army from the suckers in the Burbs who wanted a shot at themselves or their familys getting into Chitown.

Who's feeding these people? I mean does it make remotely since to have a population of 9 million and somewhat on the order of 3 million homeless squatters on your door step? Really....


Also these numbers make the CS look like the worlds most moronic generals in history.


They took close to 2 Million soliders to attack a city of roughly 350,000 PEOPLE, not soliders! and managed to lose 400,000 troops DEAD... 1.4 Million Injured, and then claimed a victory.

Death rates in the 20% + are insane, considering in Operation IF we took 100,000 or so troops, and lost.. like less then 300 due to enemy action.

Vietnam the total casualty rates were....

2.5 Million Serving over the course of the war, with 60,000 or so dead.

2.4 % Death rates.

Wounded = 150,000 or so.

So a rate ((Combined...)) 10% Wounded + killed.

Casualties... Death + injures of 66% are so out of order with every other combat in modern times as to leave somebody with no option but to go...



You know I don't really expect people to bother to follow history when writing a game, but numbers that are even remotely realistic would be nice.

Link:
http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/CASUALTY/vietnam.pdf

I love how people seem to neglect that Tolkeen was.....
A) Using a large amount of mercenaries from all over to supplement it's armed forces
B)In that population of Tolkeen's....how many were dragons? And just how much of a superior fighter would a dragon be to a single human?
C)the most common weapon in the hands of a CS soldier was a laser rifle, now what about that spell Absorb Energy....wonder what that does to a technological edge?
D)Let us not forget how many minor and major Elementals and Demons/Deevils were summoned to supplement these forces.

It looks like both sides ended up bringing about the same amount of firepower to bear with Tolkeen at an advantage with home ground the ability to nullify half of the incoming fire towards it. And they were more than willing to use the magical equivalent of a nuclear weapon on the forces of the CS. The casualty numbers don't surprise me much....

I don't know why anyone here really bothered to calcuate the exact force. . . the CS grunts fall under the "evil" catogory of minions. they're as many as is required for the plot, die in obceane numbers from the "good guys" no matter what the disparity, and fight like morons. . .


I mean really. . . I saw this kind of unrealism a mile away.

Kevin Siembieda couldn't care less about real-world ideas.

he's a friggin storyteller.

It's... it's... like reverse Thermopolae, where the Spartans are equal in numbers to their Persian enemies and lose, rather than being vastly outnumbered and... well, ya, they lost, but ALOT more Persians died than Spartans... {yes I know there were token forces from the other Greek city-states there}.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't know why anyone here really bothered to calcuate the exact force. . . the CS grunts fall under the "evil" catogory of minions. they're as many as is required for the plot, die in obceane numbers from the "good guys" no matter what the disparity, and fight like morons. . .


I mean really. . . I saw this kind of unrealism a mile away.

Kevin Siembieda couldn't care less about real-world ideas.

he's a friggin storyteller.

I can accept that but if you have a story where the Hero has to prevent an item from touching the ground and the villan drops it off a building.... going... "And just as the item is about to touch the ground the gravity on earth reverses itself because the sun is sucked into a black hole.... and the moon split in half. The Hero wins, the end."

You'd go.. um.. that's a stupid way to make the story end. Nothing kills a story as baddly as something so non-realistic as to jar you from the story itself with a moment.

I think that really comes down to the individual reading it. . .

it's wasn't too non-realisict for me. . .

North Korea probably isn't the best example considering they are so malnourished as a nation that they are several inches shorter on average then South Koreans.

TechnoMancer wrote:

RockJock wrote:North Korea probably isn't the best example considering they are so malnourished as a nation that they are several inches shorter on average then South Koreans.

I believe they are 1 in 10..... much much much less then the 1 in 3 ((Higher if you don't include the burbs in the CS total as I did.))

Cut out the burbs and the CS has a population of 5 million.... and an army of 2-3 million!!! My guess is that when the people talk about Baby legions of cs troops... they aren't talking about small numbers or guys just out of boot camp... but the just born being shoved into the front lines with guns instead of bottles and rattles.

After reading all the discussions here I still cannot see where it would be unthinkable that the army of the CS has 2-3 million troops. This is not a peaceful place to live. There are valid threats just steps from the doorway. The CS propoganda machine is running like a well oiled clock. I can see normal peace loving citizens joining the CS holy crusade against the hordes of evil. It was pointed out but alot of troops join to get citizenship for their families. Who would not join? "Sorry honey, I could join the CS, but then that would make the numbers that much more unbelievable. Nope no soup for you!" I could very easily see that kind of number and more. As for the lost troops. I really do not think an ends justifies the means kind of generals the CS has to be overly concerned.

Also let us not paint to horrific a picture of the CS. Yes the leader is terrible bad and all that, but obviously the people like it how it is. See things from their point of view. "Big bad monsters of nightmares out there who will save me?" "I will maam" "OOOHHH!!! Captain Deadboyman! My hero" See from there point of view these guys are heros and protectors. Illiteracy is just the cost of this protection. by todays standards these guys are the next Hitler and this was even used in the main book to get a feel of how they should be viewed. Take that viewpoint away and you have an army fighting for Humankind. Killing things we pay good money for in theaters to see happen. The human overcoming and destroying the monsters. There only a few movies where we make nice with the things.

Nope given the era and the state of things and the benefits that come with joining the CS I can see that it would have that many troops.

Yes, but you are applying todays standards to a time of chaos. Why should someone today join the military the few benefits they get the scorn fo masses because they have the freedom to do so (ok these are extreme, but I am feeling froggy). People in America today have freedoms and rights and priveledges that we really do not need to worry about except in rare cases (do not believe everything the media puts out). We do not have monsters (real monsters with claws and fangs and stuff) to worry about when we go to sleep. Vampires demons, and the like do not exist. Why should we have a surge in who joins the military today? Now then let us look at Rifts life. Hmmm, monsters abound, commerce as we know it today is all black market (not exactly McDonalds)and the one way to really pull yourself out of this muck is to join the only real game in town, the CS. "but why not be and adventurer or some other sort of thing?" Well we all cannot be cyberknights, not everyone knows how to survive in the wilderness, and quite frankly why should they adventure in an unsure environment (Louis and Clark are dead) when they can join the CS for experience and have someone along for the ride who has their backs (jerk soldiers aside who would only save their own bacon). It makes more sense in Rifts to join the CS than to not join. Also Rifts is not the first genre to have people by the millions join the service. Heinlan's Starship Troopers is a prime example (not the movie, my God read the book). Patriotism is at a new high in the North American continent. The CS are fighting for our existance. Someone somewhere knows someone who was eaten by some monster. It is time for payback. You are dealing with here the mentality paoiple had when Pearl Harbor was destroyed. Moral Objectionists be damned, did you see what they did to Larry? It is payback time! That is why these numbers are believable. Different times different menatlities. Look at how many soldiers where pulled in for the Civil War. Or the Revolutionary War. this the type of mentality you have in Rifts.

I'll go with the idea of Lone Star helping the food problem with enhanced grains and crops, but cattle would not be high on the list. Eathing mammals takes allot more food then eathing vegatable matter. Unless Lone Star designed mdc cows that roam all over North America, and come back to Misouri to be slaughtered at adulthood the CS won't be having much beef.

MattBaby wrote:The Coalition citizen body is closer to 16 million, not 9.

Yep, that's what it said in Source Book 1. And even after you factor in the exit of Free Quebec from the CS proper and the admission of el Dorado, the number probably only dropped to around 13-14 Million. However, it also it states in SB:1 that 10% of the population was measured in Dog Boys. That means that of that 16 million, 1.6 million were Psi-Hounds dropping that to 14.4 million. So take out the 4 Million in FQ and add in the Million or so from El Dorado and you have a rough population of 11.4 Million Humans plus around a Million more in Dog Boys that survived the war. Also there are several million more in the burbs and outlaying areas just dying to be admitted as CS citizens. So in a time of need, the numbers can swell in no time.

As for the size of the CS military, I recall reading that due to agressive recruiting the CS Army pretty much broke even with their numbers before and after the Tolkeen War, so they should have around 1.5 Million troops. Unfortunatly it doesn't break the Army down into neat percentages like it does in WB:5 (Triax/NGR). Even so, their numbers should be roughly this.

Human Soldiers: 1.5 Million

Dog Boy Soldiers: 1.2 Million

Skelebots: At least 1 Million and rapidly growing by the day.

In addition to that, there was a blurb in CWC about how about 75% of the CS citizenship served the military in some capacity. Well, frankly that makes sense. Going with the 11.4 million figure that would mean that the army of 2.7 Million Humans and mutant animals has a support network of about 7 Million non-combatants (8.5 less the 1.5 million soldiers) in the factories making their weapons and vehicles, in the shops making repairs and doing routien matenience on their bots and power armors, and in the hospitals patching up those that were wounded in the line of duty. And mayhaps this it the ture strength of the Coalition States. Their economey is directly tied in with their war efforts. The more they fight, the more they produce, and the more people they employ. Perhaps the best way to defeat the CS is by not giging they anyone to fight. Peace would crash their markets fast than any force could crash down the wall of their fortress cities.

But I do wonder where they get the food for all those soldiers {let alone people}, and the materials for armour, robots, weopons, et cetera... after all there is only a finite amount of metals in that area of North America, it isn't like they've inhabited the Rockies where such ores are far more common. As far as I know they don't even have mining operations there, since they consider it barbarian wilderness unfit for human habitation.
And moving such numbers of troop to fight in Tolkeen would have been a logistical nightmare, if not impossibility, considering the fact they also need to eat, drink, et cetera... I was in the army for 7 years, and I'd say at least 3/ 4ths of that was in the field one way or the other and I know it was often difficult to get food where my team was alot of times, and tho yes one can live off the land, such is only feasable with small fire-teams like mine... not armies of thousands. troops carry their own food, yes, and water, but you might be surprised at how quickly both go away when there's a raging battle nearby... adrenaline eats up alot of calories and water.

dwk WROTE :


"As for where they get the materials... I suspect the same place the A-team always got the plate armour..."



And

"And as for feeding the population... ever hear of the cs D=Bee "Processing centers"? "

Probably after all Soylent Green is made with D-bees!

In the First World War, Canada, with about 10 million people, had 1 million men in uniform without resorting to a draft. Considerig the War never came close to Canadian soil, that's a pretty hefty accomplishment.

Guys, take a deep breath and repeat after me:

It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.

There, doesn't that feel better?

SunRunner wrote:Within the context of Rifts Earth, yes, it does "have" to make sense. If it does not, it breaks suspension of disbelief ... and breaking suspension of disbelief is the fastest way to kill a campaign / game-world that I have ever found. Or did you miss that section on how to run a good game?

Go look up any book on writing science fiction/fantasy either online or at your local library and you will see what I am talking about.

Relax. My comment was a joke.

I see you're new to the boards, so I'll gently ask that you refrain from personal attacks. Our members, and our moderators, don't care for that sort of thing.

As for the topic at hand, that's one thing I always liked about having Erin Tarn describe the Rift's world. That way, it was OK if the numbers are off since it's just her observations. It really simplies any inconsistancies.

Saying Lone Star has a population of 300,000 is ignoring the book. Please refer to page 143 where it states...

"Despite efforts to bring settlers into the region, the Lone Star Coplex is little more then a top security military compound....."

How you get 300,000 people out of that is beyond me... However, if you add up all the real CITIES that have listed populations you get around 21,000.Page 144 Aftermath.

Few quick notes on Lone Star:

The Aftermath book just seems to re-print the stuff from the RMB, and ignores the info in the actual Lone Star book. Odessa for example increased from under 1000 to 1654. (page 15 WB13)
Also Aftermath left out a important city, Fort Pinnacle and its civilian population of 98,000.(CSN book page 20) Also Lone Star CITY has a civilian population of 33,000 (WB 13, page 16)
Adding that with the stats in Lone Star and I got 158,784 (using a average of 300 for the four minor towns listed in the north)

At any rate I generally use the stats listed in Source Book 1, which lists the CS as 14 million in 102 PA.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Saying Lone Star has a population of 300,000 is ignoring the book. Please refer to page 143 where it states...

"Despite efforts to bring settlers into the region, the Lone Star Coplex is little more then a top security military compound....."

How you get 300,000 people out of that is beyond me... However, if you add up all the real CITIES that have listed populations you get around 21,000.Page 144 Aftermath.

Few quick notes on Lone Star:

The Aftermath book just seems to re-print the stuff from the RMB, and ignores the info in the actual Lone Star book. Odessa for example increased from under 1000 to 1654. (page 15 WB13)
Also Aftermath left out a important city, Fort Pinnacle and its civilian population of 98,000.(CSN book page 20) Also Lone Star CITY has a civilian population of 33,000 (WB 13, page 16)
Adding that with the stats in Lone Star and I got 158,784 (using a average of 300 for the four minor towns listed in the north)

At any rate I generally use the stats listed in Source Book 1, which lists the CS as 14 million in 102 PA.

But that included Quebec doesn't it?

Yep. FQ has 4 million listed there, so minus them we get 10 million.

dukeofshadows wrote:Technomancer:

Remember, there are numerous small towns and outposts that aren't being listed, so our estimates could be off significantly (a significant part of the US still live outside major cities even today and much of the Rifts population is likely to be rural).

In northern Illinois there are "hundreds of small towns" and a dozen major cities outside of Chi-Town with 200-300,000 people (assuming Waukeegan isn't renovated to it's target population yet as per CWC).
12 x 250,000 = 3 million.

I don't have the SoT books and didn't even know about Iowa Bluff. Interesting...

Missouri has an additional military population of 48,000 at Chillicothe, and sisn't the CS draft lots of 'Burbs residents into their armies during SoT?

(And do any of these estimates even reflect the military population?)

Lone Star should have lots of small farms and towns that aren't listed and the population of said places would swell; does anyone have access to WB13? Given that northern Texas is huge even if sparsely populated, the farms and territories outside of those listed should be over 150,000 (I think).

Granted, Lone Star City only has a population of 35,000 or so, but the *state* as a whole (northern quarter) contains more people.

Again, there are *at least* 13 million people living in the areas under CS control not counting independent kingdoms on lands they claim. If the rural populations are taken into account it could be even higher.

Then again, the original Rifts book listed Germany as having far fewer people than WB5 did and the latter says nothing about the Scandinavian tech powers.

Hmmm...
Well, farms and ranches are different "out west than they are back east"; for instance, a hundred acres in more eastern states is fairly large, while in the west you could be looking at hundreds of acres. Even today it's not densely poulated, let alone after the Rifts.