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In WB #5, it lists the percentage breakdown of their 'bots and PAs in service - just wondering if anyone knows the actual numbers of troops and equipment, or where I can find out.

Cheers

It must be Much biger then the CS one!

If it were not for the Gargoyle Empire I think Europe wood be a Land of Peacefully coexist between Humans and D-Bees.

I think it still could happed, the NGR only wants Germany to be Humans ONLY outside they do not care.
That way they are tring to wokr out some thing with New Camwlot!

gaby wrote:It must be Much biger then the CS one!

If it were not for the Gargoyle Empire I think Europe wood be a Land of Peacefully coexist between Humans and D-Bees.

I think it still could happed, the NGR only wants Germany to be Humans ONLY outside they do not care.
That way they are tring to wokr out some thing with New Camwlot!

And don't forget they may ally with the Wolfen Republic in Italy as well...
Wonder what the CS and FQ would think about that lol...
Then again, the CS has opened up relations with Colubia, and they accept certain D-BEES... and magic...

The NGR used to have Dee Bee citazens if not
for the gargoils they would still be citazens.
maby after the wars over things will change.

Well, basic comparison with the CS:

Overall Numbers: NGR has 5 to 10 times the numebr of troops

Gear Quality: NGR has more 'borgs thant he CS has overall soldiers. NGR troops are well stocked with all sorts of gear made by the most advanced technological power on Rifts Earth (note that Naruni and Kitanni count as offworld). The CS borrowed NGR tech to upgrade their forces.

Logistical Support: The NGR's troops fight to defend a centralized position, instead of a drawn out line of states. Movement of supplies is faster and easier. While the CS does have the Deaths Head and similar vehicles, the NGR millitary is ultimately better supllied and cared for with fleets of specialty vehicles.

Troop Training: Illiterate burbites or Citizens of the msot advance Tech state on Earth

Troop Morale: The CS Army seems to be suffering from an amazing ammount of internal friction. Further, troops with high morale generally don't commit war crimes, even under orders.

Experience: The CS has only fought 1 major war in the last 40 years (The Juicer Uprising and Free Quebec conflicts were limited wars) while the NGR has been fighting daily to survive for the last 40 years. All NGR units have large numbers of combat hardened vetrans.

Shaka wrote:In WB #5, it lists the percentage breakdown of their 'bots and PAs in service - just wondering if anyone knows the actual numbers of troops and equipment, or where I can find out.

Cheers

where is that? I've gone through the book and haven't found that table... 'course I'm a bit distrait... but I'd like to be reminded. Likewise, if anybody remembers just where they give the numbers for NGR population, that would be welcome

MorganKeyes wrote:Keep in mind, by canon, maybe implied, that the NGR military is far more professional overall then that of the CS. Over the years Stalin has been disproved in that a well trained and professional army, and well equipped and supplied, can outdo a force who's sole claim is quantity. If the NGR's forces are professional troops with good supply then they can accomplish more then an 'equivilant' force composed of numbers.

Excuse me morgan... but where do you read that the CS army is not "professional"? The fact that most soldiers are illiterate does not mean they are stupid, untrained, or incompetent . From what I've seen, the soldiers are thoroughly trained to do their soldiering job, and the officers are career men who've gone through a Wzst Point type college... so where's the lack of professionalism? Actually, the CS grunt has a harder XP table than his NGR counterpart, and is more highly trained in a number of areas... though the NGR grunt also has a number of skills unknown to the CS soldier.

svartalf wrote:

Shaka wrote:In WB #5, it lists the percentage breakdown of their 'bots and PAs in service - just wondering if anyone knows the actual numbers of troops and equipment, or where I can find out.

Cheers

where is that? I've gone through the book and haven't found that table... 'course I'm a bit distrait... but I'd like to be reminded. Likewise, if anybody remembers just where they give the numbers for NGR population, that would be welcome

Its on the page, about half way, just before the PA/Robot section begins. There's a list of all the NGR PAs/bots, and below the percentages. Don't know page no. i'm afraid, i'm at work!

svartalf wrote:

MorganKeyes wrote:Keep in mind, by canon, maybe implied, that the NGR military is far more professional overall then that of the CS. Over the years Stalin has been disproved in that a well trained and professional army, and well equipped and supplied, can outdo a force who's sole claim is quantity. If the NGR's forces are professional troops with good supply then they can accomplish more then an 'equivilant' force composed of numbers.

Excuse me morgan... but where do you read that the CS army is not "professional"? The fact that most soldiers are illiterate does not mean they are stupid, untrained, or incompetent . From what I've seen, the soldiers are thoroughly trained to do their soldiering job, and the officers are career men who've gone through a Wzst Point type college... so where's the lack of professionalism? Actually, the CS grunt has a harder XP table than his NGR counterpart, and is more highly trained in a number of areas... though the NGR grunt also has a number of skills unknown to the CS soldier.

Lack of professionality is evidenced by the fact that CS troops engage in rape and torture... I haven't read anywhere that NGR troops do those inhuman things.

[quote="Shaka"

Its on the page, about half way, just before the PA/Robot section begins. There's a list of all the NGR PAs/bots, and below the percentages. Don't know page no. i'm afraid, i'm at work![/quote]

Thanks Shaka... I've found... I've also found that it gives percentage for the X series of robot and PA... but says nothing about the T series of armor (which still includes such worthies as the Terrain Hopper, Super Trooper and Glitzernjunge) ... did you find anything about those, and about the vehicles?

Vrykolas2k wrote:Lack of professionality is evidenced by the fact that CS troops engage in rape and torture... I haven't read anywhere that NGR troops do those inhuman things.

mmmmmhh? yeah... they do tend to do that to D bees and the like...

However, if history serves me right... this kind of behavior was what you expected from professional soldiers from the middle ages till the revolution.
Hence the reason why in French (and Breton) the word "soudard" (an older form of "soldat" : soldier) is quite derogatory... and the infamous dragonnades Louis XIV inflicted on the protestants (having dragoons billeted in their homes and letting them free rein to abuse their position, privileges, and access to weaponry)

So I'm not sure that such behavior is so "unprofessional" as that"

TechnoMancer wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

svartalf wrote:

MorganKeyes wrote:Keep in mind, by canon, maybe implied, that the NGR military is far more professional overall then that of the CS. Over the years Stalin has been disproved in that a well trained and professional army, and well equipped and supplied, can outdo a force who's sole claim is quantity. If the NGR's forces are professional troops with good supply then they can accomplish more then an 'equivilant' force composed of numbers.

Excuse me morgan... but where do you read that the CS army is not "professional"? The fact that most soldiers are illiterate does not mean they are stupid, untrained, or incompetent . From what I've seen, the soldiers are thoroughly trained to do their soldiering job, and the officers are career men who've gone through a Wzst Point type college... so where's the lack of professionalism? Actually, the CS grunt has a harder XP table than his NGR counterpart, and is more highly trained in a number of areas... though the NGR grunt also has a number of skills unknown to the CS soldier.

Lack of professionality is evidenced by the fact that CS troops engage in rape and torture... I haven't read anywhere that NGR troops do those inhuman things.

Except in maybe the sickest of "fan fic" locations online...

"The NGR solider stared at the 20' tall egg laying monster Gargoyle and suddenly he was filled with lust.........."

Torture part... no doubt.. but rape.. come on they are fighting brodkil and gargoyles... how does a human rape a gargoyle???

Gargoyels aren't the only D-Bees in Europe.

svartalf wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Lack of professionality is evidenced by the fact that CS troops engage in rape and torture... I haven't read anywhere that NGR troops do those inhuman things.

mmmmmhh? yeah... they do tend to do that to D bees and the like...

However, if history serves me right... this kind of behavior was what you expected from professional soldiers from the middle ages till the revolution.
Hence the reason why in French (and Breton) the word "soudard" (an older form of "soldat" : soldier) is quite derogatory... and the infamous dragonnades Louis XIV inflicted on the protestants (having dragoons billeted in their homes and letting them free rein to abuse their position, privileges, and access to weaponry)

So I'm not sure that such behavior is so "unprofessional" as that"

History serves you right, unfortunately... and it's also true that not all soldiers did such things, and many also stopped such things when able.

Why is it that when people compare technology they almost invariably compare it to Japan? Sure the book said they were more advanced, but then there were no miracles that showed this. We got 50' borgs that did sdc in hand to hand because they were "built onto sdc creatures" We get Ninjas who as soon as they are able to use basic electronics lose all of their nifty ninja abilities...

I'm not sure if any of the other books mentioned such things as sensory degradation (losing the sense of touch) for cyborgs, but Japan sure made an issue of it for their more advanced borgs...

Sorry to rant, but as a technophile it irks me. I would love to see an NGR update book, I would love to see a book on the Gargoyle empire. I just don't want to hear complaints about "it's just a bunch of new guns" when there aren't new types of wizards involved in a book about a technological powerhouse.

Fin.

SAMAS wrote: ZEBRA wrote

Actually the gargoyles and brodkil have a lot of beings other than brodkil and gargoyles in thier empires. There are a lot of evil mages and dragons and who knows what else mixed in there with those gargoyles and brodkil (in the comic in WB5 I think you can see a mindolar or something hanging out with the gargoyles). Not to mention that Gargoyle mages are basically fire warlocks, and we all know how dangerous warlocks are.

The CS would be royally stomped by the gargoyle empire in short order. They have neither the experience nor will power to defeat such an enemy.

What was the last major campagn that the NGR conducted at the scale of the CS/Tolkeen war. You really cant judge the CS and NGR until the NGR has a full scale war on the magnatude of the Tolkeen war. Until the Gargoyle empire/Brodkil do a full scale offensive, no one really knows if the NGR would get stomped in short order.
Dont get me wrong, Im a big fan of the NGR. But Im also a big fan of the CS. And the way I see it is that the CS have proven there might against a magically superior nation. And every one knows that magic is more than enough to tip the scale in any war.

Last major NGR campaign? They have been stalemated for decades with the goyles, and launched a major campaign in late 104 PA, and it is still going on as of 109 PA (Aftermath, page 175) and though they have reduced the goyles strength by 20% they war is still going strong.

Unlike the CS/Tolkeen war, there are a lot more helping hands in the NGR/Brodkil/Gargoyle scenario.

And note the way I made it a 3-way dance, because that's what it's becoming. Mindwerks is using the Brodkil for their own agenda, so technically it's Mindwerks/NGR/Gargoyles.

And then you have to take into account the Phoenix Empire and Splynn's hand into the Gargoyle Empire. Not much help coming in on the Triax/NGR side, except some trade with FQ (which Glitter Boys are a BIG help).

I don't see the European conflict going the way of the Tolkeen conflict, so it's probably safe to say what is done will stay as it is. Not much change on either end. Unless......... Nope, no Europe books due out on the Press Release. Things will stay the same for 2004.

Involves millions of more troops. The War against Tolkeen had the CS with around 1 - 2 Million troops against around 350,000 TOTAL. ((That's counting every single person in Tolkeen as a fighter, including children and elderly, as well as mercs, summoned monsters and the like.))

Not sure where you are getting your figures at, but Tolkeen had 161,000 normal infantry alone at the start of SoT Book 6. I didn't bother to count the Iron Juggernauts, magic-users, brodkil, daemonix...(pages 41-43, SoT 6).

The population stats for the city itself is on page 174 of SoT 6: 1.3 million.

CS numbers are listed on page 12 of SoT 6.