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The techno-wizard is one of my favorite OCC's in the game. Why? The ability to create. But what is missing from the books. Is a good definition of creation rules.

Yes ive seen the one in the rifter, they are too complex. Too many numbers and factors involved...

Why is there no real creation rules... There is nothing stating any limitations of it. Nor is there anythign stating how much it would potentially cost to put some spells in a device. (IE man hours, PPE costs, and gems required for spells)

I know palladiums got alot on thier plate as it is... but I think they need to sit down and make a book dedicated to Techno Wizards, or a book dedicated to creation of magical devices... putting down some rules and numbers for the players.

*cough*operator*cough*

you can add that the list of OCC books.
we have the demented Cyber Knight and a sort of juicer book.

though with PB doing smallish books of late a few more OCC books would be not to far out of the question.

still looking for a crazy book and a CS Field guide.

VvMagnusvV wrote:I dont know if it helps, but I always base the techno wizard creation on the level of the spell with a mulitplyer for everything by ten.

So for example, placing a level 1 spell into anything be it armour or vehicule, takes 10 hours of ritual, with a gem or series of gems worth 10,000. Certainly this gets expensive for the higher level spells, or placing multiple enchantments on a object, but lacking clear rules (I havent read that rifter mentioned) it is a good best fit.

But then your saying it takes 10 hours to make a Globe of daylight flashlight... that a bit much.

I think that the reason PB never did that is because the DON'T want regulations and set charts for TW's.

it varies, depends on who's doing it and who the GM is. they want the GM to have control over it.

I don't think that we'll ever see it. . .and honestly I hope we never do. it should remain up to the individuals playing it to use what works for them.

rifter 21 has some guide's for this, not rules per say, but guidlines for things like intent, synergy, ect.

not having actual construction rules gives the GM and players freedom to make what ever they like, with out much in the way of restraint.

SunRunner wrote:So, you are encouraging Palladium Books not to give us guidlines for a game system so the GM can retain their control? For handing us a game that is incomplete? How ... nice of you.

your welcome. anytime my friend.

Allow me to bring to the table a few counter-points, shall I?

please do, I do so love doing this.

On the subject of GM Control. This game is about a group of people getting together to have fun in a fictional universe, correct? And the role of the GM is to be the referee (making sure everyone has fun) and to provide the setting, events, and non-player actors in the game?

quite right.

Agreed so far? Good. Now, a question for you. Where in the above description of why we have a GM is "control" listed?
The GM is a referee. A referee has the ability to enforce the rules of the game and to assign rewards and punishments appropriate to your actions in the game. No where is it assigned that a referee can change the rules of the game we are playing ... with one notable exception in roleplaying games. And that exception is when everyone playing in that game agrees with the rule-change.

not everybody, a majority. if someone dosn't like a rule chage, they generally leave. and that's how it should be.

it's stated quite clearly in the rules of this and every other RPG out there that ALL rules are subject ENTIRELY to GM's whim. they can alter the rules at will for their game. if the players DON'T like it, they don't have to play, but that IS how it works FOR that GM's game.

Now to address a more on-topic objection. We pay Palladium Books -- by virtue of buying their books and products -- to provide us with rules for what our characters can do, setting information, and toys (guns, power-armor, robot vehicles, cyber/bionics, etc...). If we did not want to use Palladium's rules, we would not buy their books, correct?

quite true

And you are suggesting that Palladium should never sell us the rules for how to create techno-wizard items of our own ... yet I buy these books to use their rules, so I do not have to create my own.

I simply stated that I think that Palladium, and all RPG companies, should no over-rule their games. while clairification is always needed, I am of the opinion that SOME areas are best left unregulated and unruled upon. why? because it's more fun to let every individual group come up with their own rules so it's more fun for them.

I look at the rules as guidelines "here is the basic system, modify to your personal tastes" so that every person playing can play the way HE wants to play it.

this lets everyone enjoy it to the fullest.

otherwise it's impossible to find a great system as they all have flaws and it's impossible for the comapny to adress them all. but allowing the players to modify it (and I consider the GM a player) allows them to get the most out of it.

Can you guess that I object to your suggestion?

yes I can.

*grins*

sorry to wipe that grin off your face, but taking a statmetn and blowing it out of preportion like you did never works. I think that some areas are best left unregulated. I'm not saying that they never release new rules.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:


"t's stated quite clearly in the rules of this and every other RPG out there that ALL rules are subject ENTIRELY to GM's whim. they can alter the rules at will for their game. if the players DON'T like it, they don't have to play, but that IS how it works FOR that GM's game. "

I have to disagree. I no longer have the time or will to modify games. Plus it's not my game it' KS game. His game, his responability to fix what may be wrong. Don't get me wrong some people may like to tinker with the game system and i respect that. Just not myself.

Please spare me the whole "all rules are optional" arguement. I have heard it one too may times on this board and I don't consider it a counter argument more of an excuse. I apologize if I sound rude but I really really dislike hearing that.


And:

" simply stated that I think that Palladium, and all RPG companies, should no over-rule their games. while clairification is always needed, I am of the opinion that SOME areas are best left unregulated and unruled upon. why? because it's more fun to let every individual group come up with their own rules so it's more fun for them.

I look at the rules as guidelines "here is the basic system, modify to your personal tastes" so that every person playing can play the way HE wants to play it.

this lets everyone enjoy it to the fullest."

I repect that. Though Sunrunner does have a point. There are too many rules that should be included in the system. There are almost no rules to create OCC from scratch, almost no rules for spell creation. No rules for super power creation. The vehicle/power armor/robot construction rules need a major update. The Palladium system is pushed as the system that can do everything and in some ways it can but it does not give you all the neccesary tools needed. I know I can do it on my own but that's not the reason I spend my money on rpgs. I expect them to do it for me.

And:


"therwise it's impossible to find a great system as they all have flaws and it's impossible for the comapny to adress them all. but allowing the players to modify it (and I consider the GM a player) allows them to get the most out of it."

The closest system I have seen is the Hero System. Everything you need to run a game is in the core rulebook. Plus the company is rereleasing a revised core rulebook which is being redone to make it easier to use and to correct all the errata.

I have to disagree. I no longer have the time or will to modify games. Plus it's not my game it' KS game. His game, his responability to fix what may be wrong. Don't get me wrong some people may like to tinker with the game system and i respect that. Just not myself.

with all due respect, that sounds like a personal problem than a problem with the company.

Please spare me the whole "all rules are optional" arguement. I have heard it one too may times on this board and I don't consider it a counter argument more of an excuse. I apologize if I sound rude but I really really dislike hearing that.

suit yourself. of course if you dismiss the correct counterarguments you'll always see yourself as right.

I repect that. Though Sunrunner does have a point. There are too many rules that should be included in the system. There are almost no rules to create OCC from scratch, almost no rules for spell creation. No rules for super power creation. The vehicle/power armor/robot construction rules need a major update. The Palladium system is pushed as the system that can do everything and in some ways it can but it does not give you all the neccesary tools needed. I know I can do it on my own but that's not the reason I spend my money on rpgs. I expect them to do it for me.

again, that's more of a personal problem than a problem with the company. you want them to do it for you rather than do it yourself. I'd rather have everyone do it themselves than have the company rule that they all work this way. I'm not calling you lazy, just saying that I see that more as your problem than the companys problem.

The closest system I have seen is the Hero System. Everything you need to run a game is in the core rulebook. Plus the company is rereleasing a revised core rulebook which is being redone to make it easier to use and to correct all the errata.

maybe I'll check it out sometime.

again, I think that some, rather large, areas NEED to be left open to allow everyone to customize to their tastes.

while you say you don't have the time or the will to do so. . . well. . . it's not for everybody, that's for sure.

SunRunner wrote:Nekira,

I can understand your position, even if I do not agree with it. You appear to prefer a "do it yourself" approach to the rules of this game. To which I congratulate you for having the time, energy and creativity to do so.

I prefer to use the rules-set provided by the company, regardless of system, and customize from there if customization is required. I am married with 4 young boys, a full-time job and we home-school. My time, energy and creativity are taken up with things more important to me than home-brewing a game system when I can spend my money to pay someone else to do it for me ... and /that/ is why I purchase these books.

and I understand your position, I do. you just don't have the will to do so. and I understand. but while I understand, I don't think what you want is how they really should be played.

As for what a GM can/cannot do, well, think of it this way. You cannot be a GM without players. And if the majority of players do not agree with your changes ... they can always decide to no longer allow you to be the referee. This hobby is a group social activity done for the purpose of fun, enjoyment and entertainment. It is not the GM's game. It is the group's game. A game that the group allows the GM to referee for them.

oh I understand perfectly what your saying.

I'm just saying that the GM CAN change any rules he wants. if he finds himself without players, that's his problem, BUT he still has the right to make whatever rules he want's for his non-exsitant game.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

I have to disagree. I no longer have the time or will to modify games. Plus it's not my game it' KS game. His game, his responability to fix what may be wrong. Don't get me wrong some people may like to tinker with the game system and i respect that. Just not myself.

with all due respect, that sounds like a personal problem than a problem with the company.

Please spare me the whole "all rules are optional" arguement. I have heard it one too may times on this board and I don't consider it a counter argument more of an excuse. I apologize if I sound rude but I really really dislike hearing that.

suit yourself. of course if you dismiss the correct counterarguments you'll always see yourself as right.

I repect that. Though Sunrunner does have a point. There are too many rules that should be included in the system. There are almost no rules to create OCC from scratch, almost no rules for spell creation. No rules for super power creation. The vehicle/power armor/robot construction rules need a major update. The Palladium system is pushed as the system that can do everything and in some ways it can but it does not give you all the neccesary tools needed. I know I can do it on my own but that's not the reason I spend my money on rpgs. I expect them to do it for me.

again, that's more of a personal problem than a problem with the company. you want them to do it for you rather than do it yourself. I'd rather have everyone do it themselves than have the company rule that they all work this way. I'm not calling you lazy, just saying that I see that more as your problem than the companys problem.

The closest system I have seen is the Hero System. Everything you need to run a game is in the core rulebook. Plus the company is rereleasing a revised core rulebook which is being redone to make it easier to use and to correct all the errata.

maybe I'll check it out sometime.

again, I think that some, rather large, areas NEED to be left open to allow everyone to customize to their tastes.

while you say you don't have the time or the will to do so. . . well. . . it's not for everybody, that's for sure.

The thing is Nekeira if the company won't fill the holes in the system than who will? I don't think it's too much to ask that they do it. It's like paying someone to design an operating system for you. Finding it full of bugs and being told by the person you paid. "it's not my problem you deal with".
As it being a personal problem not really. I really don't have the time to rework the system to my needs. Maybe ten years ago not now.

memorax wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

I have to disagree. I no longer have the time or will to modify games. Plus it's not my game it' KS game. His game, his responability to fix what may be wrong. Don't get me wrong some people may like to tinker with the game system and i respect that. Just not myself.

with all due respect, that sounds like a personal problem than a problem with the company.

Please spare me the whole "all rules are optional" arguement. I have heard it one too may times on this board and I don't consider it a counter argument more of an excuse. I apologize if I sound rude but I really really dislike hearing that.

suit yourself. of course if you dismiss the correct counterarguments you'll always see yourself as right.

I repect that. Though Sunrunner does have a point. There are too many rules that should be included in the system. There are almost no rules to create OCC from scratch, almost no rules for spell creation. No rules for super power creation. The vehicle/power armor/robot construction rules need a major update. The Palladium system is pushed as the system that can do everything and in some ways it can but it does not give you all the neccesary tools needed. I know I can do it on my own but that's not the reason I spend my money on rpgs. I expect them to do it for me.

again, that's more of a personal problem than a problem with the company. you want them to do it for you rather than do it yourself. I'd rather have everyone do it themselves than have the company rule that they all work this way. I'm not calling you lazy, just saying that I see that more as your problem than the companys problem.

The closest system I have seen is the Hero System. Everything you need to run a game is in the core rulebook. Plus the company is rereleasing a revised core rulebook which is being redone to make it easier to use and to correct all the errata.

maybe I'll check it out sometime.

again, I think that some, rather large, areas NEED to be left open to allow everyone to customize to their tastes.

while you say you don't have the time or the will to do so. . . well. . . it's not for everybody, that's for sure.

The thing is Nekeira if the company won't fill the holes in the system than who will? I don't think it's too much to ask that they do it. It's like paying someone to design an operating system for you. Finding it full of bugs and being told by the person you paid. "it's not my problem you deal with".
As it being a personal problem not really. I really don't have the time to rework the system to my needs. Maybe ten years ago not now.

I know you don't have the time. I say it's a personal problem, because, well, bluntly, your trying to keep on playing even when, to my veiw, you no longer have the time to do it properly by my standards.

yes, that does sound harsh, but I think that it should be this way.

in the end I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree. I understand your position, you understand mine, and we still don't agree.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

"I know you don't have the time. I say it's a personal problem, because, well, bluntly, your trying to keep on playing even when, to my veiw, you no longer have the time to do it properly by my standards.

yes, that does sound harsh, but I think that it should be this way."

If I gave the impression that I no longer want to play a Palladium game it's a wrong impression. I like the system as a player but consider it too much work to run it. I don't see it as a personal problem. I see it more of choice. An easier choice for myself at this time. It does not interfere with my ability to enjoy a well run Palladium game nor does it interfere with what i like about the system.

And

"in the end I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree. I understand your position, you understand mine, and we still don't agree."

While we have and probably will always have differences of opinion. i have always respected your beliefs. On this though were are going to have to agree to disagree.