Forums of the Megaverse®

I'd say that they always have created their own enemies, though in the early years the great Dunscon was as guilty... still, they should have remembered that Tolkeen, among others, stayed out of the conflict entirely... though I wonder if things would have been different had Tolkeen helped the Coalition? Perhaps it would have been the CS State of Tolkeen... and magic and learning would have been embraced, rather than hunted...

TechnoMancer wrote:The CS has always adopted 2 fundamental policies....

1. You are like us... or you are against us. ((IE, human, non-magic using, kill DB's on site.))

2. You are with us... or you are against us. ((Non tolerant of people who think differently but still wish not to engage in hostilities.. and in fact may be open to trade and friendship.))

Is it any wonder that many people who would be fine with them if left alone, don't get that choice because the CS won't leave THEM alone.

This is beginning to change a little, as they have opened relations with Columbia... which has D-Bees, magic, and the Anti-Monster 'Borgs...

Actually V, that falls under the catagory of "lesser of two evils" for two reasons.
First - they are generally anti-DB and are beset by demonic forces.
Second - the Human countries further south are exceedingly difficult to reach, and (it's been a while since I read SA2) more "open" about DBs.

TechnoMancer wrote:I don't see it happening. But then I didn't see the following....

"Poof! Magic doesn't work!"

"Poof! Dragons run away without fighting!"

"Poof! You forget to guard you best defense in the entire war!"

"Poof! A defense that is fast enough to block cruise missiles is now so slow it can't block a buch of guys on speeder bikes!"

Well, I can see the arguement of POOF!, but in a couple of ways, they are justified and hinted at well before the SOT series.

The Flight of the Dragons should not have surprised anyone. Why would gods fight and die to protect a feeble land when they can continue to live the life of 10 Kingdoms? Dragons are known to fight, but not to the death.

As for the Magic not working or stopping speeder bikes/etc., we never seen a war along such a lines and never really thought about the PPE disruption to the Ley Lines that all that death would cause. A viable reason to cause the POOF! here, but I will agree that it is kind of a cheap one.

And as for not guarding the Northern Front, in a way, that was a little wise. I mean, if you saw an army march into Xiticix infested lands, would you really think there would be a chance of survival? Now, I would have sent a few scouts to confirm the deaths, but it is a reasonable (and yet fatal) decision to have made.

Now, as for the CS, they have the mighty war machine and the propaganda engine running it, they need to keep their image alive. In a way, think of it as 'Staying the Course' and 'Showing their resolve'. (Sorry, I couldn't resist. ) If anyone thought that the CS were getting tame after taking Tolkeen, then foes would pounce on the wounded enemy. The CS have to keep the illusion of superiority or suffer the backlash from their foes. (I mean Dunscon, Scard, Pecos Empire, all would love to be able to hit the CS good once at least.)

Nightshade wrote:

ApocalypseZero wrote:

TechnoMancer wrote:I don't see it happening. But then I didn't see the following....

"Poof! Magic doesn't work!"

"Poof! Dragons run away without fighting!"

"Poof! You forget to guard you best defense in the entire war!"

"Poof! A defense that is fast enough to block cruise missiles is now so slow it can't block a buch of guys on speeder bikes!"

Well, I can see the arguement of POOF!, but in a couple of ways, they are justified and hinted at well before the SOT series.

The Flight of the Dragons should not have surprised anyone. Why would gods fight and die to protect a feeble land when they can continue to live the life of 10 Kingdoms? Dragons are known to fight, but not to the death.

As for the Magic not working or stopping speeder bikes/etc., we never seen a war along such a lines and never really thought about the PPE disruption to the Ley Lines that all that death would cause. A viable reason to cause the POOF! here, but I will agree that it is kind of a cheap one.

And as for not guarding the Northern Front, in a way, that was a little wise. I mean, if you saw an army march into Xiticix infested lands, would you really think there would be a chance of survival? Now, I would have sent a few scouts to confirm the deaths, but it is a reasonable (and yet fatal) decision to have made.

Umm... has no one ever questioned the likelihood of that march into Xiticix territory by That CS general (can't remember his name). What I do remember, though, is that the CS troops made it through to the northern side of Tolkeen and only losing 10% of its force. And in doing that, soldiers were forbidden from shooting or being aggressive towards the Xiticix. Otherwise, they would swarm by the millions and wipe-out the CS troops. The general came through with approximately 100,000 troops. That means he lost 10,000 guys to the Xiticix?!?!?!!? And none of his troops fired a shot?!?!!? Does anyone believe that to be credible? I mean, if you see your buddies being made bug food, or if they come after you, you're going to fight.

One fight becomes two, two becomes ten, and ten becomes a swarm of a million bugs completely wiping out the CS troops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is zero possibility (ZERO!) of these troops coming through. This would never happen, particularly in trigger happy Rifts Earth!!!!! That's like sending the Rangers into Mogidishu, Somalia but telling them they can't fire a shot!!!!

I handled it differently. I said that, of the 100,000 guys that went in 9,800 came through to attack and disrupt the Ley Line Network, including the general guy. They used the commando tactic raids to make a mess of Tolkeen but there was no Northern front. Tolkeen was better able to rally its troops, lead refugees away, etc. Questions, comments, suggestions?

I agree entirely, and Tolkeen WOULD have had their defenses guarded... as for the dragons, their egos would have kept them in the fight at least for awhile... think about it, if an army of roaches were coming at you to invade your home, would you run away or would you go at them with a can of Raid in each hand, stomping away? Retreating only when your Raid runs out, to grab a couple more cans... and perhaps immolate your house with the roaches inside if you started to... lose.

TechnoMancer wrote:The SoT has the dragons run because they are afraid of dying... but wait..... the dragons are also vain and arrogant. I like the roaches term because that's how the Dragon Lords see humans.

When our homes get ants or roaches we don't run from the house and try to find another.. we bomb the house and get it fixed.

Remember the Ley Line Defense Network was fast enough to block flights of Nuke armed cruise missiles. ((Story in the first or second SoT book....))

Somehow, by the time the last book happened it become so slow that a buch of guys on windjammer bikes were able to out run it. ((Huh?!?!?))

Also when your city is sieged.. who doesn't guard all locations of attacks?

Another poof...

POOF! You Leaders are as stupid as we made out the other side for the entire war!

There is no doubt to the idea of Dragons and the Roach comparison. I find it very accurate to some point. But with all of the information on Dragons given to us throughout the books before the SOT, we have seen that A.) Dragons don't like to live near other Dragons and B.) Dragons are fiercely territorial. Freehold (and Lazlo) seem to break rule A. As for B, how many actually considered Freehold (or any other spot in Tolkeen) home? I only read of the Sleeper that really fought to keep Freehold, but in the end left due to the realization of CS victory. But I believe the biggest reason for the Dragon Kings to up and leave was King Creed's Speech at the end of the war, which caused the Dragon Kings (and other Summoned Creatures) to feel betrayed and they left the fight. A big hit to Morale will cause these sorts of actions all the time.

The Ley Line Defense did work properly during the beginning campaign. SOT couldn't be a simple tale of Nukes launched, city destroyed. But seriously, in the beginning, the Lines were not affected by the PPE Disruption caused by all the death. This explains what happened to the Defense, but granted it is a cheap shot in a way to take it out in the end.

Now I haven't read through the entire SOT in some time, so I can't quote numbers or positions, but exactly how did areas not get guarded? From what I seen (read), I don't remember anything about a Front not at least watched. The CS invaded Tolkeen and Tolkeen had to deal with the outnumbering CS force. You'd pull troops off a 'supposed' dead front to an active one to keep up the fight. (What I recall was done with the Northern Army.) The text for Warlord Umbra, general of the Northern Front, says he made the big mistake and fights (with possiblity of dying) to try and correct it (Holme's forces from out of Xiticix territory).

Yeah, there were some dumb things rampant on the Tolkeen side. Yes, lots of things seem to go 'POOF!'. Yes, it was all down to the whim of one man, who when you stop to think of it, everything in Rifts comes down to. It was a plot device and a good idea to write a set of books on. The beauty of the game is that YOU (if you're the GM) can change anything you want. Personally, I enjoy the way the things are written. I am probably the only one who feels this way. I haven't really had a problem with any Rifts books (Ok, England needs re-done).

Think about it reasonably. The Coalition couldn't have lost. There would have been more upsetting things then these 'POOF!'s if the CS did lose. Tolkeen really had no information or status except minor text before SOT. CS has many books that it is interlaced with. The CS will stay around. Lazlo will stay. Fed. of Magic will stay. Xiticix's will survive. At least until Kevin wants to shake up the whole planet (come on man, we know Prozak is an Old One!! )

Sleeper wasn't the only one who fought, in fact she only did so when woken up... and dragons do seem to get along, since there's Dragcona in Atlantis and the little mini-empire in South America... and the Atlantis book hints that they may have formed some sort of army to fight the splugorth in the distant past. My point is, dragons see people for the most part the way people see insects. When we find them infesting our home, area of control whatever what do we do? Exterminate them... we don't leave and find a new home. Only dragons are more arrogant, especially the Dragon Kings... I find their leaving to be implausable at best. Even acting as individuals, rather than a group, they'd have destroyed the CS invasion force... and then the most powerful and crafty would have taken whatever they wanted from the remains of Tolkeen.

Selina wrote:All you "how the Tolkeen thing should've gone" posters, tsk tsk tsk...there's a thread for that topic here.

To get back to the "CS and how its enemies are made" concept that I think was the main point of THIS thread...

TechnoMancer wrote:This is the CS we are talking about.. you know.. gun happy CS.. for the last 40 years has said that if you are a DB or not fully human or literate... or speak out against us we'll kill you.

Would YOU believe them if they said... "Uh... we changed our mind.. please.. come to the CS DB's...for uh... a new life...."

Well...actually, I might. Not at first, of course, but I'd believe them faster than if our own government made an abrubt 180, and here's why:

The CS is a dictatorship (benevolent or tyrranical depends on who you ask). The policies are made by the one guy at the top. Now, if that guy should change (say, for example, he croaks and his kid takes over), and the new guy said, "Okee-dokee, things used to be like ABC, but now that I'm running the show, they're gonna be like XYZ"...I would wait and see how it played out, of course, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. After all, one guy = policies, then different guy = different policies.

In a government of many, on the other hand, to have a complete 180 degree turn-around, you'd have to replace the majority of the people who made the previous policies. Much more difficult.

Democratic republics are more stable than dictatorships most of the time. The up side is less turmoil and chaos; the down side is that it takes a lot longer to change things than it would for the one guy at the top to say, "Hey, I don't like it that way, so we're not gonna do it that way anymore."

(Now I hope this really IS the main idea of this thread, or I'll feel really silly.)

The calming voice of reason speaks again...
At any rate, as i said, yes i think the Coalition does make its own enemies most of the time.

This love for another also clearly demonstrates that Karl does care for something/someone besides himself. I know I have read that he also cares for the citizens of the CS in a twisted sort of way but...sigh...I can't find the proper book right now. When I do I'll be sure to post the book and page number here.

I recall it too, where I'm not sure either.

However....
Page 175, Aftermath: Prosek is "struck hard" by the defeat of the CS Army regarding the events of Sorcerers' Revenge. Prosek falls into depression, during this time he realizes "how difficult and terrible" the NGR has it, how "alone and frightened they must feel." Prosek orders a full alliance with the NGR on 109 PA and triples their resources, as the human nations must work together.

Page 139, Aftermath: Prosek "really does feel bad for getting carried away and declaring war on Quebec." He wants them back in the CS, but "realizes that war and intimidation is not the way to accomplish that."
He goes on to call FQ brothers and must never lose sight of that again.

Page 97, Xiticix Invasion: "Emperor Prosek secretly harbors a grudging respect for the leaders of Lazlo."

Nightshade
This would never happen, particularly in trigger happy Rifts Earth!!!!! That's like sending the Rangers into Mogidishu, Somalia but telling them they can't fire a shot!!!!

uhm.... actually, the rangers orders in somalia essentually boiled down to don't fire unless fired apon, and the warlords were smart enough not to attack american troops unless they tried a ground sortee into mogadishu.

so basically, the rangers could not fire a shot.

TechnoMancer
POOF! You Leaders are as stupid as we made out the other side for the entire war!

hey, thats why the french lose every modern war. great soldiers, pathetic generals. [sarcasm] Vive La France!

Ach!!... It all boils down to the CS is a Fascist State which is defined as
a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

They use a common enemy to strengthen the bonds and loyalty of their citizens. Even if Prosek doesn't belive that all d-bees or magic users are evil monster to be killed he and his son use them that way so that all CS humans rally to their cause.

Elves, Dwarves, Sea Titans would be less than second rate if even accepted. They are smarter, stronger and live longer than humans. The CS citizens have Dog Boys who are dumber, live shorter lives and are still effectively pets. Now here comes someone where to them you are the equivalent of that pet, even if they don't think that way the CS population likely would. Remember they are caste based, there are "nobles" who are better than the commoner because they have money and now come the almost human who will out think you, out smart you and if all else fails crush your skull in their bare hands.

The CS is a dictatorship (benevolent or tyrranical depends on who you ask).

You do realize that malevolent would be the opposite of benevolent and that tyrany's closest opposite is of anarchy

The Ley Line Defense did work properly during the beginning campaign. SOT couldn't be a simple tale of Nukes launched, city destroyed. :D But seriously, in the beginning, the Lines were not affected by the PPE Disruption caused by all the death. This explains what happened to the Defense, but granted it is a cheap shot in a way to take it out in the end.

What the...yeah I'd call that cheap. If their sighting all the death as the reason the LLD failed that's uh...retarded. At the moment of death the PPE of a being is doubled and released as it did durring the apocolypse. If anything it should have become stronger.

Yes I know there's a topic for this but this was here not there.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

The Ley Line Defense did work properly during the beginning campaign. SOT couldn't be a simple tale of Nukes launched, city destroyed. But seriously, in the beginning, the Lines were not affected by the PPE Disruption caused by all the death. This explains what happened to the Defense, but granted it is a cheap shot in a way to take it out in the end.

What the...yeah I'd call that cheap. If their sighting all the death as the reason the LLD failed that's uh...retarded. At the moment of death the PPE of a being is doubled and released as it did durring the apocolypse. If anything it should have become stronger.

Yes I know there's a topic for this but this was here not there.

While that would have been stupid to suggest, that's not what the book says.. it simply says the System takes time to activate. So the question becomes.... why on earth did the CS launch a nuke strike against Lazlo with missiles that are SLOWER then the windjammer attack bikes.

Facts:

Cruise Missiles normally going several machs of speed are too slow to slip past the system.

Windjammers going under mach were too quick for the system to react to.

Yes.. it's a KS POOF!

My point behind the PPE Disruption of the Ley Line Defense was simply stated in the SOT 6 book. With all the death (and the release of the double PPE rate) caused a magical anomaly that made magic react differently. The rules for it are in SOT 6. If the Ley Line Defense is powered by PPE, then it would have became effected also.

As for other gripes, I'll save it and see if this new thread is a better place for it.

For the Topic at hand, the CS doesn't make anymore enemies than Lazlo, Atlantis, FoM, NGR, and any other nation. From the beginning, Tolkeen and CS had problems. Nothing changed. I really don't see how the CS creates new enemies. Enemies seem to spew forth from random rifts than anything else.

MorganKeyes wrote:

ApocalypseZero wrote:For the Topic at hand, the CS doesn't make anymore enemies than Lazlo, Atlantis, FoM, NGR, and any other nation. From the beginning, Tolkeen and CS had problems. Nothing changed. I really don't see how the CS creates new enemies. Enemies seem to spew forth from random rifts than anything else.

They create enemies by the simple fact of their stated world view. You have a whole civilization that finds itself dumped onto Rifts Earth. They are advanced in many ways and the society is on a whole Scrupulous in outlook, and they are quite willing to work with others since they know that they are (unwilling) intruders on someone else's home dimension. Then along comes the CS. For the Coalition it doesn't matter that this group is very accomadating, helpful, and even apolegetic for imposing themselves on humanity due to multi-dimensional craziness. Turns out the whole civilization are non-human D-Bees. That's all the excuse the Coalition needs to declare this group only good for extermination. So no matter how altruistic this civilization is, they have no choice but to consider the Coalition to be an enemy, by the sole fact that they happen to not be human.

And they'll even attack hoo-mahns who dodn't use magic but came from the rifts, IF they find out said hoo-mahns aren't "natives"... sounds like making your own enemies to me. For another example, look at the Kremin... they, according to there blurb in Coalition Wars, don't act overtly hostile, yet the CS has destroyed and even disected some of them.

But by the same right, who says that Tolkeen didn't make it's own enemies by taking to non-humans and such. It's all part of the policy. You have to have a foundation on which your nation will be set upon. Every Rifts nation seems to have a very unique foundation, yet so very similar. To single out the CS and say, 'You made your enemies' is not a correct way to put it. We have enemies by simply existing. Think along the lines of a Food Chain/Pyramid.

I understand the point that, by CS law and order 'Anyone Non-Human and/or Magic loving should be dead' or 'Earth for Humanity'. But simple focus upon the CS and not what drove the CS to these views also plays a factor. It's humanity, psychology, a baser instinct that calls for conflict. You can't put all the blame upon the CS, but on the other hand, you can't deny their policy causes problems for them. In it's own way, it's the price of existing. (You won't be liked by everyone.)

But I believe the point is failing to be seen.

It's not like the CS actually developed and grew into a nation of Human Supremecists, they were DESIGNED that way. I didn't want to drag in the reality/game world scenario, but I feel it is the only way to bring about my point.

For instance, if I decided to hate anything non-human, just by having that view causes the general association of non-humans hating me. So, yes, by the policy they set, the CS creates their own enemies. But in the same instance, just because I hate non-humans doesn't mean non-humans have to hate me. Confusing? It's meant to be.

It's a psychological thing. A way we think. And what's worse is there is a huge flaw inside this arguement that falls into every person's lap called OPINION. None of this is truely set in stone, has to be this way. The very nature of this is that the CS are not humans with emotions, but the emotional words from a human. Of course, now I'll have people saying 'Well no duh, we know it's a game!' or whatever.

Sorry, but when it comes to these games, I do try to get into them a bit and get lost inside the world, but then I do step back, see what it really is (a piece of fiction), and enjoy it. By this way of thought, I can't say that the CS makes their enemies because of CS policy. The views that are given to the CS calls for the status of enemy to be bestowed upon others.

[EDIT-After some small time to re-read some posts and gather a few more thoughts, I've decided to put in a Round 2, if you will.]

Now, I understand that because the CS hates Non-Humans/Magic, they tend to destroy it. Yes, this will cause conflicts just by having this view. So, yes, the CS does make it's own enemies. But, that doesn't mean that enemies don't make themselves. A group of D-Bee's freshly slapped into Rifts Earth could see the CS and instantly come to their own view of 'Kill them because they are different'. I don't see this being the CS's fault.

Now, you can't go and say past actions don't play upon the way the CS is now. At one point, the CS did not have an 'Anit-Magic' stance. It was purely 'Non-Human'. Yet no one wants to point at the Federation of Magic and blame them for making the CS that way? Damned Campaign of Blood by Popa Dunscon caused the CS 'Non-Magic View' that is in place within the game world now. No one wants to point to the Non-Humans coming out of a Rifts and killing CS citizens because they saw Humans as food? That wouldn't be at all an ideal acceptable just because everyone wants to say 'CS=Evil, They caused their own problems'. There's layers of reasoning that has played a factor in making the CS Doctrine become what it is, and some of it may still be locked inside the head of Kevin Siembieda still waiting to be written.

MorganKeyes wrote:

ApocalypseZero wrote:But I believe the point is failing to be seen.

It's not like the CS actually developed and grew into a nation of Human Supremecists, they were DESIGNED that way. I didn't want to drag in the reality/game world scenario, but I feel it is the only way to bring about my point.

For instance, if I decided to hate anything non-human, just by having that view causes the general association of non-humans hating me. So, yes, by the policy they set, the CS creates their own enemies. But in the same instance, just because I hate non-humans doesn't mean non-humans have to hate me. Confusing? It's meant to be.

Well that'd be fine and dandy, if the CS just said "I don't like you! Go away!" But they will actively hunt them down no matter what only for the fact they are D-Bees. This means for the sake of the poll and this argument, then yes they do create their own enemies. Their stated policy is hunt them down and consider anything non-Earth, non-human as only worthy for extermination. Their history and reasoning matters not a lick beyond background info as far as the question of this thread is concerned. The plain and simple fact is, if a brand new group suddenly dropped out of a rift and this race looked Twinkie the Kid (Hell, they come from a dimension of sentient snack foods) and more innocent and diabetically-sweet then Barney, Sesame Street, Tellytubbies, and The Muppets combined and only wanted to give all the help they could and cures to cancer, and how to close the rifts, and the secret formula to Coke....Karl and gang would still be falling over each other in trying to shoot, burn, crucify, fold, staple, mutilate, and vivsect the whole lot. Thus irrespective if the CS was a "abused child" in it's infancy, looking at it objectively they at the current time of the setting will go out of their way to make their own enemies.

Yes, in your 'Sugar filled, dream come true' race, the Coalition would destroy and burn and maim and incinerate. But that's part of the design, they'd just be another group of tech weilding humans if it was anyway else. The point of the CS is to be Human Only. It will cause conflict, yet it should also garner strength and unity from the other humans. They are simply a story element.

Janissary wrote:Does the CS create the majority of it's enemies?

That's a good question you post there Jan. And frankly its not one easily answered. Yes, the Coalition's beligerant policy does make itself a great deal of enemies. But more than that would normally against them? Hard to say.

Those of the FOM have been out to get Chi-Town and the CS later for some time now, well before the CS came into existence and started getting tough. The Xiticix are just a menace to everyone, and they're going to get blow off the map in the coming Coalition Wars 2 series if and when that ever comes out. And as for Tolkeen, though the CS kind of started up the hostilities by positioning a modest detachment of troops just beyond their boarder (for defensive purposes only ), it even says in the book that they two nations were two differen sides of the same coin. They were going to come to blows anyways. I just so happens that the CS was the one to make the first move. Those are the major enemies of the CS. Now, what about the rest?

The Pecos Empire is an enemy of the CS, but they are a glorified band of bandits and would rise to be the foe of any governing body in the area. Psyscape has made no hostile moves to the CS and has no intentions of doing so, ever! Atlantis, though powerful and the target of several CS assaults, none of these hits have been on their home soil. Lord Splyncryth sees these as nothing more than a Cost of Doing Business and writes it off in as much of a detached and impersonal way as these things get. And as for the Vampire Kingdoms, given that they can't go any further north anyways due to the Rio Grande, they and the CS are nothing more than mutual pests at best.

The only real enemy the CS has made for certain is Lazlo and it's sister city New Lazlo. New Lazlo, as it says in the books, is destined for termination in the most horrific and messy possible, and I doubt Lazlo will lift a finger to help them. However, despite all the talk of pacifism, when the CS and Lazlo come to blows, not only do I expect it to be one hell of a fight, but I also expect Lazlo to be the ones to make the first overtly hostile move to spark off the war! They've taken the preemptive actions against the Xiticix for the most part. I can see them whooping out that justification again and starting the inevitable war on their terms.

Note to self, when dealing with a CS question, first call upon our resident Dead Boy before posting.

I believe Dead Boy hit my point exactly. (Just my strange way of typing keeps me from being able to post it quite as well as he can.)

TechnoMancer wrote:I need to check my rifts books again.. but I think you are taking the view of the pecos empire right out of the CS belief... which is wrong. I think one of the "Warlords" has started to unite them together, and he has the power and skill to do it. ((He's like a fire Dragon or something.))

Yep. Sabre Lasar.
Another pecos leader, Macklin, has been practically wiped out according to Aftermath.