Using Magic Effectively: Tolkeen vs CS

[Vrykolas2k]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

more likely, they'd be fried. screw orginaising a resitance. every CS soldgier there would be empting his clip, even if they DO freze in terror for about 3 seconds. dragons can only take so much, and't don't heal THAT fast. you'd be fried or teleporting the hell OUT of chi-town in under 5 minutes. when something like that happenes, it's not so much "organise an attack" as "SHOOT THE ****** NOW"

[LunarYoma]

Using fire elementals to set fires to crops of the CS & burn the live stalk.

Sending major earth elementals underground to attack the Lone star complex & Chi Town.

Summoning a major amount of shadow creatures(like several hundred over a peroid of weeks) & have them attack(at night, hide during day) every single person with a CS logo on them & send them in the direction of Chi town.

Those are just off the top of my head.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Hmm...thought teleportaion only worked if the mage could see/know where he was teleporting too (or what he was teleporting to another place)


As for spells/tactics that I would use, attacking farms, power plants, roads/bridges, etc to cause as much disruption as possible. Heavy use of magically augmented special forces (perhaps fielding a variant Super-Spy)

Hire computer hackers to hack into CS bases/facilities to cause all kinds of problems.

Psi-ghosts/Auto-G's for high level assasinations (maybe not Prosek, but get some others)

For starters anyway.

[Subjugator]

1. Inflict magical diseases upon them.
2. Disseminate information to the populace...the ability to read is more magical than any spell. An informed populace will get sick of the lies pretty quickly.
3. Teleportation...you don't need to see where you're going with major. I figure a few nukes or biological weapons teleported in just before detonation should cause some nice problems.
4. Possession of major political and military figures out to make them wonder.
5. Ditto assassination of political and military figures.
6. Many others had it right with major elementals and elementals in general. Wells, bonfires, piles of dirt, and the very wind itself can be scary if you don't know if it'll attack you.
7. Teleport large amounts of poison into their water supply...after it's been processed.
8. Temporal wizards can be wicked scary infiltrators. Those puppies could cause strife by planting fake (and real) evidence where it could be found.
9. Auto-G into a big troop of Kittani and have 'em attack Chi-Town. Watch the fireworks fly.
10. Turn all captured prisoners into Tattooed Men. Make sure the tattoos cover parts of the body that cannot be removed. Let them go once that is complete.
11. Open rifts right outside Chi-Town to dimensions that are hostile to human life.
12. Get a few Dwarven Guildmaster space ships to help fight the good fight.
13. Get the UWW to help.
14. Hire Phase Adepts to help.

The lists are endless. The problem with trying to maintain bigotry through military means...especially on this scale...is that you'll eventually run out of stupid/ignorant people and be left with nothing but people that loathe you.

Subbie

[Vrykolas2k]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

more likely, they'd be fried. screw orginaising a resitance. every CS soldgier there would be empting his clip, even if they DO freze in terror for about 3 seconds. dragons can only take so much, and't don't heal THAT fast. you'd be fried or teleporting the hell OUT of chi-town in under 5 minutes. when something like that happenes, it's not so much "organise an attack" as "SHOOT THE ****** NOW"

And of COURSE every CS soldier in the army is RIGHT where the dragons teleport right?
I think not. Ya there'd be a FEW guards, but face it, they wouldn't be expecting this sort of thing. Like I said, it would take at least 15 minutes before the CS could mount a sizable resistance. And from the {admittedly few} pics in the main book, it seems as though the different levels can be seen from the others {and possibly from the sky}.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

more likely, they'd be fried. screw orginaising a resitance. every CS soldgier there would be empting his clip, even if they DO freze in terror for about 3 seconds. dragons can only take so much, and't don't heal THAT fast. you'd be fried or teleporting the hell OUT of chi-town in under 5 minutes. when something like that happenes, it's not so much "organise an attack" as "SHOOT THE ****** NOW"

And of COURSE every CS soldier in the army is RIGHT where the dragons teleport right?
I think not. Ya there'd be a FEW guards, but face it, they wouldn't be expecting this sort of thing. Like I said, it would take at least 15 minutes before the CS could mount a sizable resistance. And from the {admittedly few} pics in the main book, it seems as though the different levels can be seen from the others {and possibly from the sky}.

ok. let me put it this way:

dragons port in on some level. there is one squad of about 6 ISS guys patroling. each is using the CS old equipment and armor as seen in the main book as opposed to the new stuff.

lets just say they save HF. what do you think they are going to do? well, one, radio in what the hell is happening, then empty their clips. with the old 4d6 laser rifle, that's about 500 or so MDC in under 7 seconds, not enough time to cast much of any spell, or drop zombies, or such. that takes time, for them to reload and do it again. meanwhile, the CS civilianz are running in panic. ok, big deal.

they teleport above. same thing. they're loosing several hundred MDC every 7 seconds or so. that gets old really fast.

[glitterboy2098]

you should call this thread, how to think like a magical terrorist.


as a mage, you can't think as a military stragist, but terrorism, yep, thats the mages specialty.

[Vrykolas2k]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

more likely, they'd be fried. screw orginaising a resitance. every CS soldgier there would be empting his clip, even if they DO freze in terror for about 3 seconds. dragons can only take so much, and't don't heal THAT fast. you'd be fried or teleporting the hell OUT of chi-town in under 5 minutes. when something like that happenes, it's not so much "organise an attack" as "SHOOT THE ****** NOW"

And of COURSE every CS soldier in the army is RIGHT where the dragons teleport right?
I think not. Ya there'd be a FEW guards, but face it, they wouldn't be expecting this sort of thing. Like I said, it would take at least 15 minutes before the CS could mount a sizable resistance. And from the {admittedly few} pics in the main book, it seems as though the different levels can be seen from the others {and possibly from the sky}.

ok. let me put it this way:

dragons port in on some level. there is one squad of about 6 ISS guys patroling. each is using the CS old equipment and armor as seen in the main book as opposed to the new stuff.

lets just say they save HF. what do you think they are going to do? well, one, radio in what the hell is happening, then empty their clips. with the old 4d6 laser rifle, that's about 500 or so MDC in under 7 seconds, not enough time to cast much of any spell, or drop zombies, or such. that takes time, for them to reload and do it again. meanwhile, the CS civilianz are running in panic. ok, big deal.

they teleport above. same thing. they're loosing several hundred MDC every 7 seconds or so. that gets old really fast.

Providing they save vs that high of an HF, and their weopons all hit {doesn't emptying a whole clip incur penalties...?}, and all three dragons teleport in exactly the same place, and the ISS wins initiative... and they all manage to keep their cool and don't get knocked over or somesuch by panicking civilians, ya, they could do some damage.
I'd think the dragons would teleport in at different areas of each level. I also think it's improbable that all of the ISS would save. And they'd be trying not to get knocked over by all the screaming civilians... granted, there may not be a large press of them, but even one person bumping into a soldier would knock off his/ her aim. It would take time for reinforcements to get there, since they DON'T teleport, have to don armour, travel from other levels...
And then you have reinforcements showing up from the other levels in time for POOF the dragons teleport to the bottom level and start the whole thing over again. I did say adults or ancients, not hatchlings...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well...
I'd use adult to ancient dragons {three}to teleport into Chi-Town, destroy as much as they could in say 15 minutes on the high levels {it would probably take at LEAST that long for sufficient forces to mobilize to deal with them}, and have one of them drop off an iron golem and a dozen mummies/ zombies in some form of BA and vibro-swords with the words, "Slay all that ye see."
Repeat on the lower levels, then the middle levels. Then the dragons would teleport out. They would cause so much property and civilian damage the Coalition would have to pull alot of troops back just to deal with the destruction... not to mention the serious blow to morale. Might even take out a Prosek or two... it would also panic the Coalition civilians.

more likely, they'd be fried. screw orginaising a resitance. every CS soldgier there would be empting his clip, even if they DO freze in terror for about 3 seconds. dragons can only take so much, and't don't heal THAT fast. you'd be fried or teleporting the hell OUT of chi-town in under 5 minutes. when something like that happenes, it's not so much "organise an attack" as "SHOOT THE ****** NOW"

And of COURSE every CS soldier in the army is RIGHT where the dragons teleport right?
I think not. Ya there'd be a FEW guards, but face it, they wouldn't be expecting this sort of thing. Like I said, it would take at least 15 minutes before the CS could mount a sizable resistance. And from the {admittedly few} pics in the main book, it seems as though the different levels can be seen from the others {and possibly from the sky}.

ok. let me put it this way:

dragons port in on some level. there is one squad of about 6 ISS guys patroling. each is using the CS old equipment and armor as seen in the main book as opposed to the new stuff.

lets just say they save HF. what do you think they are going to do? well, one, radio in what the hell is happening, then empty their clips. with the old 4d6 laser rifle, that's about 500 or so MDC in under 7 seconds, not enough time to cast much of any spell, or drop zombies, or such. that takes time, for them to reload and do it again. meanwhile, the CS civilianz are running in panic. ok, big deal.

they teleport above. same thing. they're loosing several hundred MDC every 7 seconds or so. that gets old really fast.

Providing they save vs that high of an HF, and their weopons all hit {doesn't emptying a whole clip incur penalties...?}, and all three dragons teleport in exactly the same place, and the ISS wins initiative... and they all manage to keep their cool and don't get knocked over or somesuch by panicking civilians, ya, they could do some damage.
I'd think the dragons would teleport in at different areas of each level. I also think it's improbable that all of the ISS would save. And they'd be trying not to get knocked over by all the screaming civilians... granted, there may not be a large press of them, but even one person bumping into a soldier would knock off his/ her aim. It would take time for reinforcements to get there, since they DON'T teleport, have to don armour, travel from other levels...
And then you have reinforcements showing up from the other levels in time for POOF the dragons teleport to the bottom level and start the whole thing over again. I did say adults or ancients, not hatchlings...

ok. well, first of all, no, emptying a clip does not incure penalties if you have WP. in fact you get bonuses, so no.

and I don't really think that the paniking civialians would be much of a problem, they'll likly run AWAY from the dragons and AWAY from the guys with laser shots that can kill them flying everywhere. so no, that's not likely to occure, they'll run away from them both.

and even if they DO fail their save, it's only a single action they loose.

and if they don't have teh intitive, well. . . the dragon can start casting a spell (and take major damage while he's at it) or try to attack them phisically, leaving them likely to survive several hits in their armor AND letting them shoot back. . .

[Vrykolas2k]

Lol. At the risk of offending you, have you ever seen people in a panic? Especially when there are authority figures around for them to mob with "Save me!!!"? And I guess somehow my eyes are failing or my book is misprinted because it says that emptying an e-clip is not only a full-round action but it also incurs penalties... and if they ALL hit that's damned good shooting for the average ISS goon.
Anyway... have a doughnut...

[Vrykolas2k]

Depends on old rules vrs new rules. They dramatically changed the way rate of fire rules work in the GM Guide I believe. Besides,if I'm the dragon I teleport into chi-town in the shape of a gnat or roach.

Truth be told, hitting Chi-Town isn't needed... kill of people traveling from place to place.. blow several tiny villages..... kill people as they go to harvest their fields... and chi-town will be forced to divert hundreds of thousands of soliders from the front lines.

Then again I'm not blessed with a store which carries Palladium products and am waiting on a few books...

[glitterboy2098]

alright, how about applying Entropy based and Low intensity warfare? (Battletech fans will understand what i'm refering to.)


not only send elementals to burn the crops and spoil the very ground, but unleash hoards of gremlins on the CS bases to disable the PA and bots, and send low human intellegence demons in to attack farms and slaughter livestock.

in Lonestar, burn the oilfeilds, send gremlins and earth elementals into the lonestar facility itself, causing untold havoc.

in the war against the troops in michigan, hit them hard and don't relent, don't give them time to even breath until you've crushed their forces.

send human troops with captured CS and FQ equipment to the quebec front, and perform tactical strikes to escalate the war there.

teleporting dragons into chitown, even for less than 5 minutes, would be a crippling blow to morale. of course, dropping off zombies, gremlins, and golems would cause chaos even after the dragons are gone. of course, while the CS is battling the dragons, they'll miss the mages and Auto-g's that slip in in the other sections. these can stir up popular resentment of the emperor's actions, which while the "rebellion" would be no real threat, it would require harsh crackdowns and an expenditure of manpower.
at the same time, some of those mages could sabotage major sections of Chi-town, not only hurting the city, but causing the people to doubt the CS's ability to protect them.

on many of the terrorist actions, implicate nations that have so far remained neutral, such as Lazlo, the federation of magic, ect. this will cause the Cs to face a hard choice. do they strike at these nations, further reducing their manpower, or do they do nothing and let these nations attack them at whim. if the CS attacks the other nations, it will seem as if the CS struck first. if the CS merely annouces to them that they will not allow anymore attacks, it will seem as if the CS is rattleing the sabers and you will get popular support. if the CS does nothing, you have lost nothing.



the CS will be forced to bite off more than they can chew. if they call for help from oversea's, such as the NGR and Columbia (both of which have their own issues to deal with and cannot support the CS in any real way), the CS will be seen as weak, so even if it survives its formal potential allies will be reluctant to support them in the future.

[sHaka]

As many have now stated, pillaging the land is the essence of warfare 'provision oneself, whilst denying the foe, lay waste to his lands' as vegetius the Roman strategist once wrote. I'd send out as many supernatural and magical minions as possible to steal/gather consumables from CS lands before I did anything else.

[Subjugator]

Again.. why on earth is the Dragon teleporting into the city as a dragon form that has "shoot me" written on it. T-Port in as a tiny creature you expect to find in the city.. like say a rat... stay in the sewers summoning tons of monsters... then pop out only when guards aren't by.

Now THIS is a fantastic idea! Have a dragon in an out of the way place in the sewers (i.e. out of the range of the dogs) summoning gargoyles and the like, and then let loose the dogs of war. If things get tough, Mr. Dragon teleports away. You could do this dozens of times, including to civilian areas outside of Chi-Town.

One thing I've always wondered is why the magic users have never used magic to simply demolish an entire base? I mean, a stone master and/or earth/water elemental could eat away at the foundations of the base and completely demolish it in a very short period of time. Heck, enough of 'em could nail Chi-Town the same way (have you ever seen what happens to a house that loses support under half of its foundation? *CRACK*).

I still like the idea of summoning though.

Side note...a cosmo knight would also be able to wreak serious havok in Chi-Town, with energy weapons doing 1/100 damage (i.e. nothing) against him.

Subbie

[Nekira Sudacne]

the dragon summoning minions like gargolys while an incest for would be nice. . . except that you'd have the psi-stalkers picking up on you really quick. and they wouldn't be fooled by your form at all.

besides if you check dragons CAN'T trun into incets but that's somewhat irrelvant because they could still turn into a large rat. but that's still irrelvant to the psi-stalkers.

besides, I'd say a few CS psychics would DEFINATLY get claivoyant visions about it so the dragons would almost undoubtedly meet organised resistance upon teleproting in, elimiateing the advantage of surepise.

[Brian Manning]

I know this thread pops up a lot, and last time I started out as pro-CS, but then the pro-Tolkeen camp came up with their "Heaven and Earth" attack against Chi-Town.

I don't remember the specifics, but basically they sent out a bunch of earth and air elementals to attack high and low. The Air elementals got in through the ventilation systems, and just started setting off wind rushes, tornadoes and all kinds of chaos.

Then the Earth elementals hit them low (moving "through" the earth to get to the lower levels of Chi-Town) by casting earthquake after earth quake, and then unleasing rivers of lava when the foundations were breached.

There was a whole heated debate about an elemental being able to cast while "in" the earth (since they can naturally move through the earth without having to tunnel or anything like that). But even still, Chi-Town sits ON TOP of an old Pre-Rifts city (Is it Waukeegan?), so the elementals could just hang out in the old city and unleash their fury.

It was pointed out that the range for all spells cast by elementals was like 10 times the normal spell or something like that, so these earth quakes were just massive in size (there was also some debate about whether the range bonus included the area effect), covering the entire base of Chi-Town (and much of the burbs).

I mean I liked the SoT books (one of the minorities obviously), but man this plan made me really re-think how powerful Magic really is in Rifts.

But the point is, when thrown into a large scale conflict, Tolkeen choked, and resorted to their most basic skillset (using magic in direct conflict against tech). It's not a perfect explaination for the way SoT went, but that's just what happened, and I have no problem with that. You fight the way you train, and Tolkeen didn't train to work as one cohesive army of mages, using their combined magic talent to unleash some serious chaos.

[Nekira Sudacne]

the dragon summoning minions like gargolys while an incest for would be nice. . . except that you'd have the psi-stalkers picking up on you really quick. and they wouldn't be fooled by your form at all.

besides if you check dragons CAN'T trun into incets but that's somewhat irrelvant because they could still turn into a large rat. but that's still irrelvant to the psi-stalkers.

besides, I'd say a few CS psychics would DEFINATLY get claivoyant visions about it so the dragons would almost undoubtedly meet organised resistance upon teleproting in, elimiateing the advantage of surepise.

No way is clairvoyance so specific as to be able to pick out the exact spot where the dragon will Port into. Nor will Psi-stalkers and Dog Boys instantaneously be able to detect them. Chi-town is HUGE!! There are millions of people living there and large tracts of sewers and other areas that are overrun with crime and even monsters, particularly on the lower levels. The psi-stalkers and dog boys patrol but only regularly protect specific locations in the city. It is completely feasible that an adult dragon can teleport in, summon demons that will do damage to the city, and teleport out before anyone is the wiser.

they don't have to pick out the exsact spot. "dragon will teleport in the sewers and start summoning horrible demons from the rifts in the next day or so"

when the time comes, there's a battalion or three flooding the sewers, with heavy ordinence. sure, collateral damagage will be a ***** but it's better than the alternive.

chi-twon is big, but with 6 battaions permantly based to protect it it's not THAT big.

also, here's just a theroy I have. . .

if you look at the pic of Chi-town in the main book, it's compleatly enclosed. no way the dragon could even know WHERE to teleport into it.

[Vrykolas2k]

I think the proponents of the "Dragons as terrorists" plan are saying the dragons would have impervious to energy already up when they teleported in. Thus making any energy weapons useless. Thanks to the Coalition war campaign book we now know that the ISS does not pack heavy ordence(rail guns) with in the city.

Again.. why on earth is the Dragon teleporting into the city as a dragon form that has "shoot me" written on it. T-Port in as a tiny creature you expect to find in the city.. like say a rat... stay in the sewers summoning tons of monsters... then pop out only when guards aren't by.

So much for the dropping off of golems mummies and zombies with THAT plan... mine would be a bit more disruptive, since the CS would have to split up its forces in the city to deal with the golems and minor undead... and avoid hitting the civilians they're trying to save from the "hideous beasties"...

[Vrykolas2k]

I find the "Magic can kick CS butt" thinkers are, to me, anti-PB. Their theories and plots indirectly state that the PB staff made magic too powerful for tech (& some psionics) to handle, therefore the CS could not have possibly survived to now and should be erased or rewritten as they're too restricted.

- The CS have no defense for some magic tricks that could cause total devastation
- Therefore nothing is stopping a circle of powerful magic users & dragons from annihilating the CS with impunity
- Therefore the CS is weak
- Therefore the CS could not have lived this long, or won any wars against magic using peoples (like Tolkeen)
- Therefore the writers must make up BS excuses for why the CS is dominant, just to satisfty writer's fiat
- Therefore PB has bad writers and designers
- Since an RPG company is defined by their writers and designers, PB sucks.

============

That's about the sum of it, isn't it? This is why I have issues with notions like "Give me half a dozen greater elementals and the CS is toast"... "just teleport a nuke into the heart of Chi town... no problem" ... "A few castings of Drought on their bread basket and they're all but finished".

What are you trying to justify? That you're smarter than the PB staff? If so, please, go write an RPG that's better and go play it. I feel so bad that you wasted your money on books you like poking holes in, supporting a company that I like... honest.

As for me, I prefer to come up with some justification as to why things are as they are on Rifts Earth. I say that the PB writers have given you and me the chance to make up our own reasons as to why the CS has been able to thwart plots like those for decades. It's my job as a GM and as someone who actually likes PB's designs and ideas to put concepts between the lines, explaining that the CS is actually far more deceptive and dangerous than they let on.

I like complaining as much as the next guy, but that's what work is for (and school used to be for)... something to do and to complain about. I find complaining and poking holes in my recreation to be depressing.

==================

Here are some of my favorite things to add to make the CS more dangerous.

- Hit squads composed of specialists, psychics and juicers
- Superior tactics... best in North America
- Superior military methods (communication, discipline, etc.)... best in N. America
- Zealots (kamikaze units)
- Proper mixture of skelebots, borgs, power armor and psychics in their units
- Spies everywhere getting info and giving misinformation to the enemy
- Proper distribution of psychics and dog packs, forming an impenetrable security network
- Conspiracies to trap and kill powerful individuals with anti-CS sentiment (get them before they get you)

Here are some good conspiracies... they can lead to a kickarse adventure too.

- External propaganda: leaking misinformation... that the CS is weaker than it is, then crush them... then leak that the CS is like "Big Brother" and knows all, and points to the traps and assassinations mentioned above.
- Powerful information network... every year, a dozen captured mage are mind bonded with and all the data fed to a computer... the CS has a massive up-to-date database on magic & supernatural.
- Use of brainwashing to misinform the enemy: brainwash lies into a sacrificial squad and send them against the enemy where they'll get captured. When they are interrogated (and even mind bonded with) they give false CS information that they honestly believe to be true. Another deadly trap.

Chill... no-ones saying all the writers are a bunch of poopie-heads or anything, and I HAVE stated that the CS should win the war, I just think all the POOFS should have not happened and Tolkeen should have done some damage of their own. I think CS casualties at the front should have been twice what they were, and I think Tolkeen and/ or the Dragon Kings should have done some kind of offensive on Ch-Town to make them consider their own position. As it stands the CS lost virtually nothing, which very rarely happens in war...

[Vrykolas2k]

Teeheee that's 3 out of 3 people who responded, saying I should "chill". Y'all are obviously unfamiliar with my demeanor and temperment.

The fact is, I'm right. I'm always right (except when I'm mistaken). You guys really think you're better than the PB staff, but don't say it directly. But by my pointing that out and you reinforcing it...

("what the people on this thread is saying is that magic was underestimated in the SoT books.")
("CS casualties at the front should have been twice what they were, and I think Tolkeen and/ or the Dragon Kings should have done some kind of offensive on Ch-Town to make them consider their own position. As it stands the CS lost virtually nothing, which very rarely happens in war.")



... just makes me smile that arrogant grin of mine. And rightfully so... because I'm right. I love being me.

So in other words just ignore your posts and you can "always be right" by yourself...
Doable.

[glitterboy2098]

you're all making a classic military blunder.

the "home by christmas" syndrome.

all of your plans are intended to win the war quick, with minimal loss of your own resources.

such thinking has never worked.



the only real way to win a war is to make it impossible for your opponent to wage war, by demolishing his military, support structure, and command and control ability. this is entropy based warfare. you keep hitting them, giving them no time to rest, resupply, and repair until they have no ability to fight back.

normally this will take years, even with the small scale involved in the CS/Tolkeen war. (this method of warfare comes from battletech, where it was used to destroy a nation holding a hundred PLANETS.)


to accelerate the time table you add Low intensity warfare (also from the battletech universe.) this is basically localised terrorism intended to force a change of opinion in a population.

little "annoyance" strikes designed to erode the peoples faith in their leaders and make them pliable to a change of goverment.


combining these two techniques resulted in my plan as proposed.

the destruction of military forces not only reduces the ability for the CS to fight, it puts doubts into the minds of the people in regards to the militaries ability to defend them.

when the agricultural centers get torched, and food becomes scarce, that feeling intensifies, as the CS leaders cut shipments to the people in order to supply the military (of course, the ruling class still gets to eat well, fueling a class resentment.)

a military strike into the armored cities themselves will cause the people's confidance to erode further, since the "Mighty CS Military" was unable to prevent it. (even if the assualt gets repulsed, the very fact it happened will destroy the peoples confidance.) when the magical and Auto-G infiltratiors show that the CS military cannot maintain security the confidance will further erode.


cultivating rebellion amoung the people will get the CS leaders worried, and they will have to do something. increasing the number of troops on patrol in the cities will sap the militaries manpower, and if they do a civilian crackdown, the people will be upset over loossing their rights.

this becomes an escalating spiral, as the CS moves to counter the change in popular opinion, and creates more.

[Vrykolas2k]

Except you're wrong... it isn't that PB is moronic... it's that ALL fantasy suffers from logic gaps to make worlds that are "fun" to game in.

The CS is probably THE most known symbol of Rifts. Destroying them is a bad move financially. So they get saved. PB often has logic gaps to keep this promise. Saying that something is illogical or not done perfectly isn't the same as saying you could do better or that it sucks.

I can listen to a song... know I can't sing.. and still go.. hmmm.. that might have been better if it were abit slower.

With stories they all have logic failures... why didn't the Hero do this... why didn't they villan just do this.

Anyway.... your premise was wrong... you attempt to tie to me compounded on the flaw... and your patting yourself on the back for two mistakes is even more amusing.

And perhaps keeping posts that are from one thread in the thread you pulled them from would be a good idea because it keeps the flow of the posts intact.

Even better... poking holes in the universe is what fans do. It's fun, it passes the time, and it gives GM's ideas for their own game. Really saying that somebody is Anti-PB when they probably have several hundreds of dollars of PB material in their house in order to fully pick at the holes in the Rifts logic is moronic to say the least.

A sanely argued and non-egotistical post. I know I have quite a chunk of change in Rifts books... enough to pay rent and bills and groceries for a month at least lol. I love Rifts, it's my favourite game ever, but having said that I do think the Siege on Tolkeen should have been done a bit differently. I don't think the CS should have had such an easy time of it at the end, and in fact I think Tolkeen's side in the war was under-written. There were ALOT of powerful people there, and they should have been written as having done more than they did.

[Vrykolas2k]

No GM in their right mind would let you get away with that. They'll make it prohibitively expensive or unavailable or have you attacked at the pick up point or something.[/quote]


Really? Hey if my players were that clever and figure out something like that... but then, of course they'd need a way to fire the things since Phase World Missiles might not fit Rifts Earth vehicles {high-tech micronization or whatever...}.
Some GM plot devices are out-and-out unfair to enterprising players. I don't use them most of the time.

[Vrykolas2k]

No GM in their right mind would let you get away with that. They'll make it prohibitively expensive or unavailable or have you attacked at the pick up point or something.

Really? Hey if my players were that clever and figure out something like that... but then, of course they'd need a way to fire the things since Phase World Missiles might not fit Rifts Earth vehicles {high-tech micronization or whatever...}.
Some GM plot devices are out-and-out unfair to enterprising players. I don't use them most of the time.

You're telling me that as a GM, you'd let them nuke a major CS city? No way I would play in such a game. Cleverness points go to those who do more with less, not who can find the biggest bomb, gun, superpower.

Rule number 1 of being GM - make it fun. Rule number 2 - control the Munchkin-ness of the players before it no longer becomes fun. This game isn't like D20 games, here it's up to the GM to balance power. Once players become power-mad... it just loses all fun. Using magic in creative ways is one thing because there is tactical balance with tech but this is just munchkin.

Just my opinion and not really along the lines of this thread but o well...[/quote]

Firstly, they'd have to know Phase World existed or find it in character... secondly, the missiles cost money... thirdly, they need something to shoot them... and lastly, missiles can be shot down. If the defenders roll well enough, well, it would be some really pretty fire-works, and the PCs would have to haul ass out of there before the CS retaliation hit them lol.
But if the defenders didnt roll so well, a missile or two might get through... I'm certain the city would be damaged, though not destroyed... then there's the aforementioned retaliation strike.

[Vrykolas2k]

No GM in their right mind would let you get away with that. They'll make it prohibitively expensive or unavailable or have you attacked at the pick up point or something.

Really? Hey if my players were that clever and figure out something like that... but then, of course they'd need a way to fire the things since Phase World Missiles might not fit Rifts Earth vehicles {high-tech micronization or whatever...}.
Some GM plot devices are out-and-out unfair to enterprising players. I don't use them most of the time.

You're telling me that as a GM, you'd let them nuke a major CS city? No way I would play in such a game. Cleverness points go to those who do more with less, not who can find the biggest bomb, gun, superpower.

Rule number 1 of being GM - make it fun. Rule number 2 - control the Munchkin-ness of the players before it no longer becomes fun. This game isn't like D20 games, here it's up to the GM to balance power. Once players become power-mad... it just loses all fun. Using magic in creative ways is one thing because there is tactical balance with tech but this is just munchkin.

Just my opinion and not really along the lines of this thread but o well...[/quote]


As for D{umb}20, I have seen players abuse it through rules-tweaking to such an extent that five 8th level characters amassed huge fortunes, built a hideous fortress, and took down a god... so I'd say that that game isn't power-proof either.
Then again I have a peave with WotC right now because of crappy fan support.
So there you have it... ya the CS took out a kingdom of magic and got a bruised eye basically, yet I think it's vulnerable itself to a well-planned assault using magical means.

[dark brandon]

Wizards have the following advantages on the battlefield...

Preparation: While in an even exchange tech opponents usually rule the battlefield, wizards are almost unstoppable when given even a melee of prep-time before combat. With spells like Impervious to Energy, Chameleon, Invisibility, Shadow Meld, Armor of Ithan, Invincible Armor, Superhuman Speed, Fly as the Eagle and more, sorcerers can put themselves in a position that is far superior to many conventional military vehicles. Hit and run tactics will be the preferred method of combat by wizards, enter combat, retreat when your armor spells get low. Technological opponents will find themselves hampered in the field, unable to make proper repairs while their opponents just get a full night's sleep and are ready to fight again the next day.

A Mage has to time his spells just right. Alot of the spells have sorry durrations from low levels. If you cast it too soon, then the spell will be done with before combat, and during combat your not gonna be casting any spells. Chamelion for example makes you move very slowly to be effective. Armor of ithan has only 60 MDC (to a 6th level mage), the typical grunt has more MDC armor. Not only that he can attack from farther range. While superhuman speed is good (I forget how fast, but a juicer is pretty fast too), will get you there, if you lose track of time, your toast. Also, it's not much better than conventional because conventional has "continual" use, just short of blowing it up. It's far better to pack a samas than to have someone cast fly as an eagle. And during battle, if the CS does not let a mage get a full nights rest (and from what I hear about war, you usually don't), they become the one's who are in turmoil.

Home Turf: For wizards, Ley-Lines and Ley-Line nexuses are easy to defend. Most opponents will think twice when they know they can be attacked by nigh undodgeable Power Bolts that to 15d6+6 MD a level and have a range of 4800 feet plus 300 a level.

True. Unfortunatly this has a mage playing defencivly. You'd try to draw the mage away from the line, or wait him out. (Diffucult to do if he can crate bread and milk). Only if you have way way supirior numbers and total recon on the area will you even concider it. But yes, in this aspect they do hold more of the cards.

Terrorism & Black Ops: Want to open a safe/vault/door but you don't have the code or key? Escape will solve that problem. Need to assassinate someone from a distance? Power Bolt, Call Lightning and Mental Blast will solve that problem pretty quick. Need to teleport a nuclear bomb into the heart of Chi-Town? Teleport: Lesser can make that easy. Need to interrogate an unruly prisoner? Words of Truth, Trance and Dominate will change his tune pretty quickly. Sorcerers excell in the arts of cloak and dagger, and make incredible thieves, assassins, terrorists and interrogators. Not even master psychics can match a wizard for versatility however and mages are far more common in Tolkeen than master psychics are in teh Coalition.

As someone stated, teleport might not work. You have to know where your teleporting to in some way, and few I doubt have ever seen the inside of chi town. A mage does excel in those fields, but unless a mage is superbly trained and ready for what may come, something as simple as turning the wrong corner may be the end for our hero. A power bolt or mental blast would solve a problem quickly. That is, if they are given the 7 seconds needed to cast it. If they are distracted and continually so, they become fairly helpless. A master psychic can fire mental blasts at will.

Minions: While sorcerers themselves may not be physically impressive, their minions are. SHifters can bind demons to their control, and many demons are easily the match for power armor. A teleporting Shedim or shapechanging Devilkin can give a wizard a heady advantage, and with a 7th level Shifter capable of binding 4 permanent minions at any time, you can see how Tolkeen war parties, particularly in the Sorcerer's Revenge would have looked.

Agree with you there. Though, depending on how much the CS party knew, one of the first ones your gonna gun for is the mage. Why? because when he dies so does some of his minions. I say some because some might decide to stay anyways. Of course that's assuming the mage was with the party. Some might say "why would he be" and others "why not". But not all sorcerers are shifters.

Tech has an advantage in that to "upgrade" a weapon, he needs only about a day or so to get the weapon and try it out. FOr a mage to learn a new spell, I believe it takes a min. of 2 days, and more if it's a higher level spell

[dark brandon]

Wizards have the following advantages on the battlefield...

Preparation: While in an even exchange tech opponents usually rule the battlefield, wizards are almost unstoppable when given even a melee of prep-time before combat. With spells like Impervious to Energy, Chameleon, Invisibility, Shadow Meld, Armor of Ithan, Invincible Armor, Superhuman Speed, Fly as the Eagle and more, sorcerers can put themselves in a position that is far superior to many conventional military vehicles. Hit and run tactics will be the preferred method of combat by wizards, enter combat, retreat when your armor spells get low. Technological opponents will find themselves hampered in the field, unable to make proper repairs while their opponents just get a full night's sleep and are ready to fight again the next day.

A Mage has to time his spells just right. Alot of the spells have sorry durrations from low levels. If you cast it too soon, then the spell will be done with before combat, and during combat your not gonna be casting any spells. Chamelion for example makes you move very slowly to be effective. Armor of ithan has only 60 MDC (to a 6th level mage), the typical grunt has more MDC armor. Not only that he can attack from farther range. While superhuman speed is good (I forget how fast, but a juicer is pretty fast too), will get you there, if you lose track of time, your toast. Also, it's not much better than conventional because conventional has "continual" use, just short of blowing it up. It's far better to pack a samas than to have someone cast fly as an eagle. And during battle, if the CS does not let a mage get a full nights rest (and from what I hear about war, you usually don't), they become the one's who are in turmoil.

Well Brandon, I'm not going to disagree with you on this, wizards do have to time their spells, that's certainly a disadvantage, as is lower MDC rates and lower ranges on many common spells. However, most modern combant happens within a few hundred feet, that's been the historical precedent. Secondly, while a grunt DOES have more MDC on average than a wizard, this can be misleading. A CS grunt has ONE suit of 100 MDC armor, if it gets damaged he probably won't be able to fix it. In the meantime, most wizards will wear a light MDC armor and then be able to supplement it with magic force-fields that they can put back continually. One of the problems I've seen in the way people play Rifts is everyone assumes that combat goes until people die. If the wizard can retreat, any damage he causes is worthwhile, he'll be able to come back tomorrow fresh as a daisy and his opponents will have continually degenerating equipment.

Home Turf: For wizards, Ley-Lines and Ley-Line nexuses are easy to defend. Most opponents will think twice when they know they can be attacked by nigh undodgeable Power Bolts that to 15d6+6 MD a level and have a range of 4800 feet plus 300 a level.

True. Unfortunatly this has a mage playing defencivly. You'd try to draw the mage away from the line, or wait him out. (Diffucult to do if he can crate bread and milk). Only if you have way way supirior numbers and total recon on the area will you even concider it. But yes, in this aspect they do hold more of the cards.

I'm aware of a ley-line's limitations, but what it says to me that other than writer's fiat, there's no way in hell you could ever take a fortified ley-line.

Terrorism & Black Ops: Want to open a safe/vault/door but you don't have the code or key? Escape will solve that problem. Need to assassinate someone from a distance? Power Bolt, Call Lightning and Mental Blast will solve that problem pretty quick. Need to teleport a nuclear bomb into the heart of Chi-Town? Teleport: Lesser can make that easy. Need to interrogate an unruly prisoner? Words of Truth, Trance and Dominate will change his tune pretty quickly. Sorcerers excell in the arts of cloak and dagger, and make incredible thieves, assassins, terrorists and interrogators. Not even master psychics can match a wizard for versatility however and mages are far more common in Tolkeen than master psychics are in teh Coalition.

As someone stated, teleport might not work. You have to know where your teleporting to in some way, and few I doubt have ever seen the inside of chi town. A mage does excel in those fields, but unless a mage is superbly trained and ready for what may come, something as simple as turning the wrong corner may be the end for our hero. A power bolt or mental blast would solve a problem quickly. That is, if they are given the 7 seconds needed to cast it. If they are distracted and continually so, they become fairly helpless. A master psychic can fire mental blasts at will.

Okay, MILLIONS of people have been to Chi-Town, all a wizard has to do to enter the town unmolested is transfer his PPE to something else beforehand, scout out the town, call it a day. You don't even need to do that, you could go in in astral form or have your familar do it. And yes, I'm aware that casting a spell in 7 seconds is a disadvantage, but he works with those disadvantages. A wizard in a fortified position casting power bolt is far more dangerous than a conventional sniper.

Minions: While sorcerers themselves may not be physically impressive, their minions are. SHifters can bind demons to their control, and many demons are easily the match for power armor. A teleporting Shedim or shapechanging Devilkin can give a wizard a heady advantage, and with a 7th level Shifter capable of binding 4 permanent minions at any time, you can see how Tolkeen war parties, particularly in the Sorcerer's Revenge would have looked.

Agree with you there. Though, depending on how much the CS party knew, one of the first ones your gonna gun for is the mage. Why? because when he dies so does some of his minions. I say some because some might decide to stay anyways. Of course that's assuming the mage was with the party. Some might say "why would he be" and others "why not". But not all sorcerers are shifters.

Tech has an advantage in that to "upgrade" a weapon, he needs only about a day or so to get the weapon and try it out. FOr a mage to learn a new spell, I believe it takes a min. of 2 days, and more if it's a higher level spell

That is an advantage to technology, upgrades are a lot easier, but only if you have c-a-s-h, time, and resources. A wizard only needs time.

1) While most combat happens within a few hundred feet (which I was not aware of, but am now, thanks), it doesn't end in a few seconds. Combat can last for days on end. In such a battle, the CS will have the upper hand as their arsonal is not completely supplied from internal energy. They just have to pull the trigger. I'm sure most soldiers know that if mage tries to escape, they have to do everything they can to stop him, because he will be back and just as strong.

2) I wouldn't say that a mage in a fortified possition is more dangours than a sniper. A sniper can hit you from 1000 ft +. While a fortified mage will eventually run out of what fuels his fire at his limited range. Besides, psi-stalkers and dog boys can smell a mage just for being a mage, regardless if he has PPE or not (I think). Astral form may work, But there are plenty of dog boys who would be able to see them (Not that that matters, cause they would not be able to do anything about it)

3) Don't mess with mages on ley lines. especially if they are dug in ready for a fight. Best bet is to try and draw them out. If you can't, go around or back up or just be really really quick on your attack. If you can catch a mage by suprise, even in a fortified ley line, they are still easy pickings because of the time needed to cast a spell.

4) A wizard need not only time, but someone or something to learn from. Reading the SoT, minor low level spells were shared, but mages were still pretty stingy with their spells. Most spells that were taught to all mages fighting for Tolkeen were spells that say for example, most mages probably already knew.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Home Turf: For wizards, Ley-Lines and Ley-Line nexuses are easy to defend. Most opponents will think twice when they know they can be attacked by nigh undodgeable Power Bolts that to 15d6+6 MD a level and have a range of 4800 feet plus 300 a level.

True. Unfortunatly this has a mage playing defencivly. You'd try to draw the mage away from the line, or wait him out. (Diffucult to do if he can crate bread and milk). Only if you have way way supirior numbers and total recon on the area will you even concider it. But yes, in this aspect they do hold more of the cards.

I'm aware of a ley-line's limitations, but what it says to me that other than writer's fiat, there's no way in hell you could ever take a fortified ley-line.

ah, but you can.

1, power bolt. powerful, nigh undodgeable, but you can only cast one every 7.5 seconds. you can have talismens, true, but they are quickly used up with a mear 3 shots each.
2. as mentioned before (in another thread) socerors fury and blood and thunder. great offenisve power, also easy targets for massed fire. furthermore, you can cast any defensive spells.
3. missiles. I know, I know, swollowing rift. effective, but there are problems with it.

1. it only works at a nexus and within one mile of one. if you are just at a ley line, as it says, it dosn't help you none.
2. even at one, they still need to be ABLE to cast it if you are in the middle of casting annileate, call lightning, power bolt, or carpet of adhesion, you don't have the time to put it up. in fact, the missiles will hit before you can really start chanting. I'm not talking about heavy nukes, I mean that SAMAS'S missiles. a volley of 8 AP rounds (to get around the ever-popular impervious to energy) does 8d4*10 MDC and half to everything in range for mini-missiles, short and medium range from bots are even worse. even WITH convential armor underneath that Armor of Ithan, you're still likely fried. while others, like invinsiable armor, absorbe the whole thing before dissapating, but still, you still need another melee round to get it back up, in which that rail gun on the SAMAS sure comes in handy. . . not to mentioned the others around attacking.
3. they are not all-knowing and can't get it right all the time.
4. even on a ley line, if the battle is fearce they WILL run out of PPE.

but wait, they can retreat and recover PPE. well, yes. . . and loose the Ley Line when they run.

[dark brandon]

Home Turf: For wizards, Ley-Lines and Ley-Line nexuses are easy to defend. Most opponents will think twice when they know they can be attacked by nigh undodgeable Power Bolts that to 15d6+6 MD a level and have a range of 4800 feet plus 300 a level.

True. Unfortunatly this has a mage playing defencivly. You'd try to draw the mage away from the line, or wait him out. (Diffucult to do if he can crate bread and milk). Only if you have way way supirior numbers and total recon on the area will you even concider it. But yes, in this aspect they do hold more of the cards.

I'm aware of a ley-line's limitations, but what it says to me that other than writer's fiat, there's no way in hell you could ever take a fortified ley-line.

ah, but you can.

1, power bolt. powerful, nigh undodgeable, but you can only cast one every 7.5 seconds. you can have talismens, true, but they are quickly used up with a mear 3 shots each.
2. as mentioned before (in another thread) socerors fury and blood and thunder. great offenisve power, also easy targets for massed fire. furthermore, you can cast any defensive spells.
3. missiles. I know, I know, swollowing rift. effective, but there are problems with it.

1. it only works at a nexus and within one mile of one. if you are just at a ley line, as it says, it dosn't help you none.
2. even at one, they still need to be ABLE to cast it if you are in the middle of casting annileate, call lightning, power bolt, or carpet of adhesion, you don't have the time to put it up. in fact, the missiles will hit before you can really start chanting. I'm not talking about heavy nukes, I mean that SAMAS'S missiles. a volley of 8 AP rounds (to get around the ever-popular impervious to energy) does 8d4*10 MDC and half to everything in range for mini-missiles, short and medium range from bots are even worse. even WITH convential armor underneath that Armor of Ithan, you're still likely fried. while others, like invinsiable armor, absorbe the whole thing before dissapating, but still, you still need another melee round to get it back up, in which that rail gun on the SAMAS sure comes in handy. . . not to mentioned the others around attacking.
3. they are not all-knowing and can't get it right all the time.
4. even on a ley line, if the battle is fearce they WILL run out of PPE.

but wait, they can retreat and recover PPE. well, yes. . . and loose the Ley Line when they run.

The exception to this of course is ley line walkers and those that can ley line phaze. they just lose positioning. That's what makes ley lines all the more nasty and why CS has to be so much more brutal. I think it takes like 1 melee round of concentration to ley line phaze, and if CS can't duke out the damage, they are in for some trouble later.

[Sureshot]

That's why it's important to have support fire and power armor units on every frontline. They can charge in, taking some damage and lay down the smack on would-be escapees.

Skelebots are best of all, because they're expendable and feel neither pain nor fear.

I'm not saying it would definitely work all the time, but it certainly boosts the odds for the CS offensives.

I thought this thread was about using magic effectively not finding effective ways to counter magic.

[Sureshot]

That's why it's important to have support fire and power armor units on every frontline. They can charge in, taking some damage and lay down the smack on would-be escapees.

Skelebots are best of all, because they're expendable and feel neither pain nor fear.

I'm not saying it would definitely work all the time, but it certainly boosts the odds for the CS offensives.

I thought this thread was about using magic effectively not finding effective ways to counter magic.

Can't just sit idle and watch you guys pat each other on the back. It's the job of people like me to make sure that your "cunning plans" are only of good quality, and to show that you have to be able to counter the counters, too.

Um okay that's nice. Would it realy hurt you to stay on topic instead of trying to derail it?

Lynx8882 wrote:

"its uncivilized remarks like this that get threads shut down"

True but let's face it Malignor was really asking for it. I'm all for posting what you want but posting opposite of the topic presented because it's what you like to do is counter productive does not let anyone take your position seriously and is well bothersome to say the least.

[R Ditto]

I haven't had a chance to fully read the thread yet, but I've had some ideas rattling in my head.

One thing I think Tolkeen could have done was using their warlocks using tactics similar to Japanese soldiers dug in on an island with rocky terrain/mountains during WWII, and the VC in the Vietnam War. Tunnels.
All sorts of tunnels and even extensive underground living facilities could really have given Tolkeen some positive stuff.

In Vietnam, the tunnels were deep enough that even a B-52 strike might not have much effect.

In WWII, the Japanese on an island were well dug into a small mountain, and in the end, it took a whole lot of firepower and manpower to deal with them.

In an underground environment, earth warlocks would really shine. CS troops couldn't effectively deal with the tunnels by simply going in with sizeable numbers. A single earth elemental could cause havoc, closing off tunnels and opening up decoy tunnels or even collapsing tunnels on CS soldiers. Alternatively, Air, Fire and Water elementals could make tunnels dangerous also.

Since the VC did dig tunnels under friendly areas, Tolkeen could cause much trouble with similar tactics. Like having a bunch of Earth Warlocks tunnel deep underground, and then use a few river of lava spells to heat things up.

Combine with those summoning types. Have them summon a LOT of charcoal, sulfur and potassium nitrate. Quickly mix, set a timer, and run like mad...

Have an Earth Elemental/Warlock make the occasional trip near a CS base and use Earthquake or even just Earth Rumble. The purpose being to make sure CS soldiers don't get much sleep.

On a side note, Invis Sup has a major flaw... the caster can be easily spotted just by detecting magic... the spell says nothing about hiding itself, and it is most definitely 'active magic'.

Air Warlocks and Fire Warlocks (preferably with Greater Elementals) on a Ley Line or Nexus becomes a force to be reckoned with.
Major Air Elemental with Wind Blast. Does 2D4x10+30 MD, and has a range of 100,000 ft! That's NOT including effects from ley lines/nexus points.
An Air Warlock still has a good range of 1000+400/lvl.
Major Fire Elemental with Plasma Bolt, 6D6 MD per blast, 10,000ft range, can fire of 9 plasma bolts per melee, for a total of 10 melee rounds. That's without ley line/nexus effects.

Now, combine Elemental Magic with TW, and have Major Elementals do the actually 'charging' of the items.
How about a Wind Blast cannon? Or a Plasma Bolt cannon? Ones with the enhanced ranges the major elementals get?

Defensive stuff.
Major Air Elemental and Wind Cushion. Range of 100,000ft! Covers a nice area over 100ft. Nice for shaking up DHTs, formations of SAMAS, or otherwise tossing up airborne barriers in the paths of fliers.

Create clay, sculpt clay into desired (and thick) form, clay to stone. Instant annoyance to CS forces. Might not be MDC stone, but a simple stone wall can be of great use at times.

Create clay +clay/stone to iron. Instant raw material for the basic of making steel or for other things.

Encase object in stone + randomly shaped wireframe with cheap/simple 'coating' of something like clay, with a remote detonated explosive inside and a few thin wire antennae... at first, the CS probably won't expect harmless looking rocks to be concealed land mines. Use catapults to really freak them out as exploding rocks rain down on them.

Sculpt and Animate Clay animals +Clay to Stone + some sort of explosive charge... instant MDC kamikaze bomber.

Eternal Flame, expensive but long lasting light source. Take an open area and make sure it is well lit even at night in the middle of a driving storm.

A lot of earth warlocks make a deep hole, a lot of water warlocks make it a lake, and the next CS unit dropping by gets hit with a tidal wave inland...

[Sureshot]

Malignor wrote:

Well, Helios, I suggest you avoid a keyboard when you're suffering from ill temperment and headaches. My original responses, where I questioned the basis for this thread, was due to my annyoance at finding another thread filled with smug "lets obliterate the CS with a few low level spells" ideas. Ideas by people who, I think for some part, are just taking such an opportunity to delude themselves and others that they're better than the PB staff by finding loopholes and flaws in their designs and writing."

So your basically admitting if you don't like the topic you will do your best to derail it. Thank you for warning us the "deluded" masses. Funny how you consider Shaded_Helios out of line but you feel free to call him and any others who post on this thread deluded. It really is. Because of course calling someone deluded is not an insult. Heaven forbid we the "deluded" have a dissenting topic. Let me give you some adivice if you don't like a topic don't post. I don't post on all of them. I get the impression you are trying to get this thread shut down and/or are flamebaiting.

Do you even know what a high level mage can do? The so called "low level" spells can be deadly when cast properly especially by an army. Read the spell section in the main rulebook and the FOM of magic book. Then tell me that some of those spells are"low level" As far as I am concerned the only reason the CS won was because they are important to the overall story are popular with the fans.

[Sureshot]

Malingor wrote:

"Untrue.
Your reponses, which lure me into responding on this matter is only fuelling the "flames". If you really care about this topic, drop the subject and don't think (or shoud I say "delude yourself into thinking") that you have any hope of "teaching me" anything. Again, responses to my controvesial statements prove those statements.
The term I used, "people who, for some part", was there for a reason. I did not choose to say "for the most part" because that may be untrue. If you feel insulted by such a vague, sweeping, generic statement then that's self-conciousness in action. I don't point fingers at individuals except in defending my own credibility. I would rather avoid such distasteful activities, so try to avoid assaulting me directly"

Now I am too self-conciousness . Any other nouns,pronouns, adjectives you would like to attribute to me? Let me guess it was not directed at me personally but at the nature of my post. Whatever have it your way. I got better things to do then waste my time on you.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I got better things to do then waste my time on you.

Apparently not.

===================

I am curious. Does anyone know if there is any magic means of "cleaning up" an area damaged by nuclear weapons? I haven't delved into the Eco-magic of the Dinosaur Swamp, and I can't recall much about th bio-magic from South American elves. The only others I can think of that would be able to do anything are the Native American Shamans.

If someone could find a better answer, that would solve the "nuclear wasteland" idea, (in the case the CS doesn't plan to occupy the land).

to adress the last part: no, however, I DO have a home-made ritual that will clear up a nuclear waste, by aging the radioactive materials past their life into their stable element form (an offshoot of Time-warp: age)

affects a 1 mile radus per level of the spellcaster. however, it will stablize ALL radioactive material in the radius, this includes undergound, so you better leave your power armor or vehicle a good ways away, or else you'll be without power.

[Sureshot]

Malignor

wrote:"

I got better things to do then waste my time on you.[/quote]
Apparently not."

You just don't know when to quit do you? Keep trying to get a reaction and deny that you are doing it. I am sure you are going to deny what I just wrote. Feel free to write somemore. I will ignore you for the simple fact that it encourages you.

[Nekira Sudacne]

to adress the last part: no, however, I DO have a home-made ritual that will clear up a nuclear waste, by aging the radioactive materials past their life into their stable element form (an offshoot of Time-warp: age)

affects a 1 mile radus per level of the spellcaster. however, it will stablize ALL radioactive material in the radius, this includes undergound, so you better leave your power armor or vehicle a good ways away, or else you'll be without power.

What level and PPE cost is that? I'm guessing it stabilizes radioactive materials by accelerating their decay (the offshoot).

I guess another alternative would be to "turn the dirt over" with a lot of Earth Warlock magic, pushing the radioactive material very deep while bringing safe soil to the surface.

Intersting. That gives me something to think about.

==================

Memorax, where did I deny it? Besides, I'm having fun.

the ritual is an improved 14th level spell, and costs 450 PPE. expensive, but it's a major change in the nature of the spell with a huge radius. it takes 20 minutes to complete however. it involves drawing a circle in the ground (any material, or just dirt, needs to be there however) because while you are in the circle you are impervious to the effects of radiation. (you stand inside it to preform the ritual.

also note that it is theroetically possible to cast it without the circle, but sinse they might not have radiation protection available it's useful, and was designed for that reason.

[glitterboy2098]

while going to phase world for arms and equipment may be plausible (and a good idea), it kind of defeats the intent of this thread, to brainstorm how you would defeat the CS using Magic.

the only magic invoved in that plan was the demensional portal spell, and some minor TW modifications.

--------------------


and much of this discussion needs to be in another thread, since its not about the strategic use of magic (IE: how to defeat the whole CS with magic), but more tactical (IE: how to use magic to defeat a CS platoon)

please remember this.

---------------------------------

also (and i've mentioned this before), single strikes, be they nukes, magic, or involving military forces, have never won a war.

(except when the british empire took zanzibar, but the zanzibar army was out classed by the crew of the british merchant ship by 10 to 1. the crew who had gone to shore to watch a sports event stormed the zanzibar armies barracks and the ship shelled the palace until they surrendured. shortest war ever. all of 45 minutes.)

did the towers win the war on terror for the afgans? nope. did D-day win WW2 for the allies, nope.

all wars are a combination of multiple strikes and battles resulting in a final goal.

so dropping a nuke on chitown, even if it's destroyed, won't win the war. if anything, it will make the CS populace more solid in their support of whoever the new emperor is, and more willing to accept losses to defeat Tolkeen.

[glitterboy2098]

Actually that's wrong. Dropping a nuke on chi-town ((if it's destroyed)) would take out around 6+ million out of 13-14 Million total people in the CS.

Lose around 40% of your population and you will indeed quit the war.

drop a nuke on Chi town and you might destroy 40% of the population, but you also alienate yourself from every human nation in north america, and you'd merely elict a nuclear response from the CS (who posses 2 Ohio class Nuclear Missile subs, each with 18 Trident ballistic missiles, each of which contain 8 MIRV's each. each of these Independantly targeted Nukes are roughly 40 times the power of the Hiroshima bomb dropped on japan. by dropping a nuke on chitown, you are calling down 288 of these devices on your head. thats a combined total of 11520 times Hiroshima, an explosive force capable of vaporizing the entire state of minesota. i don't even think the Triangle defense sheild will hold against that.

Also.. what are you the thread police? Even then you're wrong. Using MAGIC to open up a portal to phase world, buying ships, and returning to use them to DEFEAT the CS... is indeed using magic to defeat the CS.

i'm just tired of threads turning into "oh, yeah, well i'd drop a nuclear bomb" "well I'll open a small black hole that will suck up only first born males."

Did nuking Japan end to the defeat of the Japanese in WWII... hmmm.. I think it did. ((Note that the total population loss for Japan from those two nukeswas FAR less then the loss of population that the CS would take with the loss of chi-twon.))

the dropping of the atomic bombs on nagasaki and hiroshima did cowe the japanese goverment into signing the peace agreement, but it was the US's navy and marines that allowed the bombs to be droppped. the Navy's submarine forces crippled the Japanese shipping, causing the japanese factories to want for vital supplies, and the marines and SeaBee's took islands from the japanese and built airstrips, so that the bombers could reach Japan in the first place. had the A-bombs not have been ready, a conventional bombing campaign like that done in europe would have been enacted, along with a build up of conventional troops for a highly opposed invasion of the Japanese mainland.

the bombs did end the war, but it was hardly a singular effort.

[glitterboy2098]

Besides... even if the CS nukes Tolkeen... ((Which would make their entire line of "we want the land" worthless....)) the barrier shield held up against the first wave of nukes launched by the CS at the start of the SoT campaign. ((Read the book, the CS launched a nuke strike on tolkeen and their wave of missiles did zip.))

the barrier sheild held up to a barrage of a few dozen one or two Kilo-ton nukes.

we are talking one multi-MEGATON nuke per MIRV. and 288 MIRV's.

so we are talking in the thousands if not tens of thousands of Megatons.

the explosion would create a hole in the atmosphere, extending into SPACE, exposing the surface to pure vacum for a fraction of a second, before the pressure wave from the returning mass of air shattered everything remaining after the initial explosion. the radiation would be enough to make the entire state unpassible for a few thousand years, and would likely posion the whole western hemisphere.

so even if the sheild holds (and i doubt it. that much devistation should be unstopable) once its down the city dies from radiation posioning. you could just keep the sheild up, but then their would be minimal energy for anything else. and you'd quickly run out of food. your water would become undrinkable, since it would be from wells and purification plants on the river, which extend past the sheild into the affected area. and purification plants can't remove all radiation from water.






so even if tolkeen survives the blast, its dead anyway due to ecological disruption.

[Nekira Sudacne]

<snip>
.

Reread the barrier shield... it's not a shield with X number of MDC.. missiles, radiation, damage and the like go into it... and never come out or come out someplace else. Which will protect Tolkeen itself form the explosion, the force, heck the nukes won't even go off they'll vanish into the shield.

Re-read SoT Book 1 where the shield is described. It's NOT a shield like a force field, it's a RIFT.. that swallows things up and rifts them away.. forever. It doesn't matter if it's a rock, or a 1 BIIIIIIIILLLION kiloton weapon, they don't hit the shield.. they go thru it vanish from our reality... forever.

Ok... so assume that the CS actually brackets Tolkeen in nukes.. without actually hitting the cities. From there the city itself will be safe behind the shield. ((Radiation will be rifted away.)) Then it's just up to mages leaving the city in environmental armor... or with invulnerability to energy on and effectively naked... to cast a series of clean up spells.

Sure the area around tolkeen is blitzed.. ((Assuming the Missiles aren't swallowed up by the rift shields))... but you can clean up waste with magic.

re-read it yourself. you're thinking of Swallowing Rift, not Rift Triangular Defence System.

and your wrong about how either work anyway. radiation is NOT sucked in, only winds and things that are suckied in by winds. furthermore, it is impossible to totally encircle Kingsdale with it, as the radius is not big enough and it can only be preformed at a nexus.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Re-read the report from the CS grunt watching his missiles strikes. The defense shield swallowed the missiles... they never went off.

and a CS grunt fresh from the burbs will know just what spell it is HOW?

[The Galactus Kid]

I'm really not going to waste my time with this. I do think it is a very interesting thread, but everything that I would have said has already been said. I agree that the magical terrorism is the way to go, and Tolkeen obviously did not do enough of what it was truly capable of.

Open up a Rift to hell next to chi-town.... leave note on it... "From your loving friends in Atlantis... the new show me state."

Sit back and watch as the Comedy begins.

I thought this was great, too.

[Mouser13]

Storms of Resistances

Use about 10 wizards with Summon and Control Storm. Attack chi-town with storms 24/7 for some 30+ days would cause the massive problems with imports as will as force a lock down of the fortess. Also the Nega Psychics would not affect this spell as they are not in the range (Affects the upper atmosphere). Also I would most likly do this in winter for the increase snow effect of to some 40 inches of snow per hour bearing the city under 100’s of feet of snow.

[Sentinel]

This would work in my campaign, but may not work for everyone.
In my campaign, there were mages in Tolkeen who were able to contact a Raksasha, and had had dealings with him in the past.
I would, perhaps, used this unholy alliance, coupled with friends and allies/catspaws to disrupt the inner circle of Chi Town and the CS government.
I should explain: This Raksasha had a long standing friendly...thing going with Loki. Two tricksters trying to outdo the other, but greatly respecting each other's degree of imaginative treachery. The two together focused subtly on the Prosek empire...before too long, no one in the higher echelon would be able to trust anyone else. Even your most humble lick-spittle toady could be a shape-changing god or demon...

No need for big Mega damage confrontations, just the right amount of deception, made possible by HUGE amounts of PPE and psionics.

[cornholioprime]

A]] Blight of Ages. Several dozen high-level mages, with PPE Batteries strapped to their backs if need be. Mass Damage of the Attrition kind that is virtually undetectable.

B]] Too bad the good folk of Chi-Town live in super-sized Walled Cities. I wonder what would happen if I were to recruit several score Warlocks each armed with PPE Talismans and/or Batteries (if needed), "Walk through Stone" Spells, Teleport: Superior Scroll (to make good their escape), and "Invisibility: Superior" and "Fly as the Eagle" Scrolls. Finally, once the Mages reach their destination, they activate TW delayed-action "Annihilate" Scrolls at various structural points.

What's that, Emperor? You jam about a zillion rezidents into each of those Buildings??? Perhaps you'll change your mind about attacking Tolkeen when you lose a few hundred thousand Civilians (or more) at a single time.

Of course, you wouldn't actually know that it was we Tolkeenites that did it. We'd probably ask our volunteers to undergo some sort of mystical brainwashing to make them believe that they are Federation of Magic sympathizers or some such, even if captured and probed.....

[dark brandon]

Just remember, terrorist acts may backfire.

1) Killing dozen of innocent folks as opposed to soldiers will earn you the ire of many nations. Open your portal to hell next to chi town and inevitably you may find Lazlo or even Archie backing up the CS. Lazlo may be pro-magic and not like CS one bit, but they would no doubt have a huge problem with the slaughter of innocents. As stated by Erin tarn, CS citizens arn't bad, just the government that leads them.

After CS won the war this turned out to be as big a mistake as any in the war. Archie want to eventually control CS. He probably wouldn't like the idea of having it wiped off the face of the earth.

I also believe only the most evil of Cyberknights would think hurting civilians is ok. That's one of the big reasons they joined Tolkeen in the first place to protect the innocent.

2) Terrorism against food supply you hurt the civillians more than you would the soldiers. To compensate for the loss of food, CS would offer less to civilians to keep their Soldiers fed.

Neither would really cause any type of insurection, actually the opposite, would probably rally and unify humans all the more. Scare a child and he'll run to safty behind his mothers leg.

Just look what happend when the terrist act of 9/11 took place.

3) Putting a large number of high level mages together to cast these high level spells presents it's own problem. If they were found out, they'd be far away from home. if these mages die in this attempt, you've lost a pretty good load of high level mages, which are not a dime a dozen. A CS grunt can be trained and outed in a few months.

Terrorism only works if those which you are commiting a terrorist act too, are unsure or against the situation. CS was pretty sure about this war. It had to be done (in their eyes).

[pblackcrow]

Nevermind that Tolkeen lost and the CS won.

Not in everyones game.

[Sir_Spirit]

The discussion of the triangular defense system or swallowing Rift is irrelevant. The Mirvs do not have to be aimed at the city to completely annihilate it. The missile can strike north, south, east, or west, of the city and envelope all three cities of tolkeen in its blast radius. Only one missile would be needed. Tolkeen is dust if they launch a nuclear attack. Period. This is why Tolkeen never did it.

So a mirv would get past the defenses just because it's not aimed at them?
What kind of reasoning is that?
Sorry, but Tolkeen didnt' try to nuke them because they were written as being idiots.
Note:And The LLTDS would indeed protect them from a Mirv that wasn't aimed at the cities.