How does the CS survive?

[Vrykolas2k]

I think it goes a little deeper than that, at the same time more shallow...
Sure the CS is admittedly weak magically, but tech shouldn't be underestimated. The Federation was for a very long time peopled by squabbling factions, all too afraid to strike at their hated enemy for fear that a rival would destroy them in a moment of weakness. To an extent, it still is that way, though Alistair has untited most of it, he'd still be in a position of weakness if he launched an attack and say The Three decided they'd be next... being intelligent, they'd most likely intervene. Not necessarily on the behalf of the CS but rather for themselves and what they've built. Tolkeen didn't actually want a war, and were content to just have their own kingdom... they were of little real threat to the CS and hadn't supported terrorist action against the CS {individuals might have sure, but it was far from national policy...}.
In the end though the CS is there and won a relativley bloodless victory over Tolkeen because that's what a writer wants.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Experience levels. It seems to me that a lot of people think that every mage has survived being staked to that magical tree in Asgard that grants all magic. Looking at SoT 6 and we see that the average magic-user has a level range of 3rd to 7th, while the "masters of magic" are 6th to 10th level.
Thats not bad at all, but that does not mean they will know every spell, or every good spell, have maximum PPE or magical devices that augment their PPE, and last I checked PPE Channeling is not official.

Also I think another is misconceptions about what spells can do.
Take for example the Earth Elemental spells, only Earthquake, River of Lava and Firequake are capable of affecting MD structures (I'm sure I'll get a argument from some on this). Air and Fire Elemental spells look to make better duelers than anything else, and the Water Elemental spells are real good on/in water, with a select few being usefull on land.

On Teleport: Lesser the mage must actually KNOW the area to teleport something to, not described, not seen in a picture; he has to have been there before. Teleport: Superior allows that, but thats a powerfull spell plus requires obtaining the knowledge, you can't teleport that nuclear warhead to Prosek's bedroom with a very high chance of success.

I've always thought that the direct transplanting of the Palladium Fantasy spells was not really appropriate for a number of reasons. There are a number of other spells that, IMHO, should have been modified to fit Rifts Earth, and much clearer definitions on what those spells can do.

And yeah I'll say it. The CS has the ultimate anti-magic terrorist unit, the Vanguard. They've been around as a well-organized group for over 100 years. A lot of people don't like it, but its there.

At any rate just some quick thoughts that have always bugged me.

[Vrykolas2k]

Experience levels. It seems to me that a lot of people think that every mage has survived being staked to that magical tree in Asgard that grants all magic. Looking at SoT 6 and we see that the average magic-user has a level range of 3rd to 7th, while the "masters of magic" are 6th to 10th level.
Thats not bad at all, but that does not mean they will know every spell, or every good spell, have maximum PPE or magical devices that augment their PPE, and last I checked PPE Channeling is not official.

Also I think another is misconceptions about what spells can do.
Take for example the Earth Elemental spells, only Earthquake, River of Lava and Firequake are capable of affecting MD structures (I'm sure I'll get a argument from some on this). Air and Fire Elemental spells look to make better duelers than anything else, and the Water Elemental spells are real good on/in water, with a select few being usefull on land.

On Teleport: Lesser the mage must actually KNOW the area to teleport something to, not described, not seen in a picture; he has to have been there before. Teleport: Superior allows that, but thats a powerfull spell plus requires obtaining the knowledge, you can't teleport that nuclear warhead to Prosek's bedroom with a very high chance of success.

I've always thought that the direct transplanting of the Palladium Fantasy spells was not really appropriate for a number of reasons. There are a number of other spells that, IMHO, should have been modified to fit Rifts Earth, and much clearer definitions on what those spells can do.

And yeah I'll say it. The CS has the ultimate anti-magic terrorist unit, the Vanguard. They've been around as a well-organized group for over 100 years. A lot of people don't like it, but its there.

At any rate just some quick thoughts that have always bugged me.

I agree about levels, o yes I do... where are the Vanguard described? They seem intriguing.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm curious... how about a specific scenario.

A level 9 Shifter (call him "Guido") has eight followers (all literate). He has the spells of Create Magic Scroll and Summon and Control Entity in his list of powers. One of his students is also a very skilled interrogator and brainwasher who knows how to break a human's will, given time.

One day Guido sees a patrol of normal CS infantry. They're part of a platoon and are scouting the area to make sure it's secure. Guido summons a possessing entity and tells it to possess one of the squad members as soon there are 1 or 2 alone. The entity waits for its chance and possesses one of a pair that are refilling waterskins. The possessed CS soldier does a sneak-attack on his buddy, kills him and runs off to meet with Guido before the rest of the squad finds out what happened. Guido and all his entourage are gone before the CS has a chance to find them.

Guido ties up the soldier and frees the entity, and his interrogator takes his time with his craft, eventually (a few months later) turns he CS soldier into Guido's willing pawn. This pawn we'll name "Jim"

Now Guido is on good terms with a wizard's circle who "own" a Ley Line Nexus. He gives them the down payment of Jim's laser rifle in exchange for a month's rent of a room in the "mage's inn" on the nexus. Every day at noon, dinnertime and midnight, Guido has access to more than enough PPE to make a scroll of Summon and Control Entity. In total, he spends at most 3 hours a day, and the rest teaching his students and reinforcing the bond between himself and Jim, and learning as much about the Coalition as Jim knows. Over the month, Guido makes (3 scrolls/day x 30 days) 90 scrolls of Summon and Control Entity, each of which can call & control an entity for 9 full days. He gives each follower 10 scrolls for the main event.

On the chosen day, Guido has prepared Jim for his mission and give him a horse (which he bought or stole). The group is 1 day's travel by horse from a CS city. Guido and his 8 disciples each use up all their ten scrolls, right after each other and summon 45 Tectonic Entities and 45 Possessing Entities. The 90 entities are given the following instructions:

- Follow Jim into CS territory (a military base which Jim knows has less psychic security)
- When he has reached a place and says so, you must possess robots, power armor and people and begin killing everyone in sight. Keep chanting a prearranged chant while you kill everyone, so you know who not to attack. The chant is something random but confusing like "Backup! Call for backup!" or "Help me! Please don't kill me!" or "I love you!"
- Until 8 days are up, stay together, team up and keep doing as much damage as possible. So long as Jim is alive and not controlled by another, he should be kept safe and his instructions followed. If he dies, stay close and help each other to survive and destroy and kill.
- Never be in the same place with psychics for more than 5 minutes. They may destroy you.
- Tectonic Entities: We are fully aware that once your body is destroyed you can not inhabit another for 12 hours. This is acceptable, but try to be in an active physical body as much as possible, preferrably a Coalition robot, power armor or vehicle.
- If you are probed by a psychic, my name is Girtrude and I am about to head into the magic zone (implant lies).
- On the last day, grab all equipment you can, scatter and stash them (at this rock) (under that tree) and go free.

Meanwhile, Guido and his buddies move to a hidden location safely outside CS borders, tap into a CS news & propaganda station and wait for the havoc to hit their screen. Popcorn all around. When the havoc is over, they do their circuit of all the stash points, moving carefully and using sensory abilities and covering their tracks. If there's nothing there or there is a CS presence, then they'll just skip that stash. No stash location is ever used twice, and each stash is miles away from the next. Just to be safe, a few entities (a couple extra scrolls... a few days work at most) will always be around them and scouting from high altitude in energy form.

=======================

How can the Coalition stop this from happening again & again? Guido can do this 1-3 times a year. This is just one 9th level Shifter and his buddies, doing their "semi-annual CS terrorism" for kicks and profit. There is no real pattern that can be traced back to Guido's group, and as long as they're smart about picking up the stashes, it can be very profitable and safe for them as well. Meanwhile the CS is likely to lose a few hundred lives per attack (at the very least) as well as hundreds of millions of credits worth of equipment and materials.

What can the CS do?

Sounds like a good plan... though every CS base I know of has psi-hounds and psi-stalkers... would prolly do better against Free Quebec...

[Dustin Fireblade]

the vangaurd though, is not controlled by the CS, they are a secret underground illegal organization

Very true, but they do everything they can to help and protect the CS.

where are the Vanguard described? They seem intriguing.

They now have their own book.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Breaking down Malignor's scenario:

Everything up to the nexus point seems feasible.

1. Jim was MIA, likely presumed KIA. There may be some question on if he will even be allowed into the base right away, especially if it was not his base that he was stationed at. Heck he may even get shot before he gets a chance to explain anything.
Really this is the key thing here, a guy rides up on a horse and says he's a CS soldier and wants in? He is NOT going to be given free access right away, and lucky to get past the gates.

2. Where are my CS patrols in the area? Jim's not likely to know that (and it should be constantly changing anyway) What if Jim gets captured before he gets there?

Two big thing there that are not accounted for, and are constantly changing. Security procedures will be evolving all the time, especially with nutty mages running around thinking up crazy plans.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm curious... how about a specific scenario.

A level 9 Shifter (call him "Guido") has eight followers (all literate). He has the spells of Create Magic Scroll and Summon and Control Entity in his list of powers. One of his students is also a very skilled interrogator and brainwasher who knows how to break a human's will, given time.

that's never a garentee. but for the sake of argument let's say you manage to brainwash him.

One day Guido sees a patrol of normal CS infantry. They're part of a platoon and are scouting the area to make sure it's secure. Guido summons a possessing entity and tells it to possess one of the squad members as soon there are 1 or 2 alone. The entity waits for its chance and possesses one of a pair that are refilling waterskins. The possessed CS soldier does a sneak-attack on his buddy, kills him and runs off to meet with Guido before the rest of the squad finds out what happened. Guido and all his entourage are gone before the CS has a chance to find them.

first of all: in my game, a CS patrol never stops to refill anything. they return to base before it's needed. it's rarely more than a few hours they run and any further than that is run by SAMAS or Windjammers. this is done to prevent exsactly this senario. they've had something similar happen (I thought of this senario before as well) and now run patrols like this to prevent it.

but for the sake of argument let's just say they break polocy and do so.

Guido ties up the soldier and frees the entity, and his interrogator takes his time with his craft, eventually (a few months later) turns he CS soldier into Guido's willing pawn. This pawn we'll name "Jim"

again, we'll just say he manages sinse it's possible he escapes, suicices, or just proves unbreakable (hey, this is a game about the extrodanary).

Now Guido is on good terms with a wizard's circle who "own" a Ley Line Nexus. He gives them the down payment of Jim's laser rifle in exchange for a month's rent of a room in the "mage's inn" on the nexus. Every day at noon, dinnertime and midnight, Guido has access to more than enough PPE to make a scroll of Summon and Control Entity. In total, he spends at most 3 hours a day, and the rest teaching his students and reinforcing the bond between himself and Jim, and learning as much about the Coalition as Jim knows. Over the month, Guido makes (3 scrolls/day x 30 days) 90 scrolls of Summon and Control Entity, each of which can call & control an entity for 9 full days. He gives each follower 10 scrolls for the main event.

this get costly after a while, and that alone makes it hard to do. though a 9th level shifter is well a master and would likely own one in his own right, so let's just say he has access.

On the chosen day, Guido has prepared Jim for his mission and give him a horse (which he bought or stole). The group is 1 day's travel by horse from a CS city. Guido and his 8 disciples each use up all their ten scrolls, right after each other and summon 45 Tectonic Entities and 45 Possessing Entities. The 90 entities are given the following instructions:

ok. one days ride by horse isn't that far. i'd give you about a 65% chance of being detected by SAMAS or windjammer partol at this point, but for the sake of argument, lets say you evade decetion.

- Follow Jim into CS territory (a military base which Jim knows has less psychic security)

dosn't exsit. while some will be more heavy by numbers, there will psy-stalkers at all and it's fairly standard at all bases within a DAYS RIDE BY HORSE TO A CITY. for that matter, it'd likely be heavy at that range for this reason. assume they are intelligent.

- When he has reached a place and says so, you must possess robots

cannot be done. says so specifically under tetonic entites.

power armor

arguable. only the old Death's Head SAMAS is small enough, literally the maximum. others are too big, and the old school is being phased out.
possessing people is another matter. they can save, but they'd eventually fail.

and people and begin killing everyone in sight. Keep chanting a prearranged chant while you kill everyone, so you know who not to attack. The chant is something random but confusing like "Backup! Call for backup!" or "Help me! Please don't kill me!" or "I love you!"

only the possessing entites could, but that'd still cause confusion. good idea.

- Until 8 days are up,

they'd be gone long before this. Psi-battaion would show up and exorise the lot. and it wouldn't work well. the psi-stalkers, dog boys, and psi-battation would show up long before this. reinforcemtns.as soon as any SAMAS or construct would be formed by the tectonic entity it's be nailed by so many lasers, rail gun fire, and explosives it'd be annailted in short order. the psichics would find out the possessed instantly, restian them and exorcise the entity. in fact, using that along they'd proally be able to send them all back to their deminsion this way in about 3 days or less.

and now here is where Psi-battaion really shines though. the bodies are all destoryed. the master psycics, like zappers, bursters, and mind melters, use see the invisable to see them. then start a psychic assult that annilates them in short order. same for the possessing entites. unable to fight back, ordered to stay togeather, and fobbiden to leave by the same magic that summoned them there, they'd be destroyed in short order, likely less than a day. though they would cause some serious damage.

stay together, team up and keep doing as much damage as possible. So long as Jim is alive and not controlled by another, he should be kept safe and his instructions followed. If he dies, stay close and help each other to survive and destroy and kill.

- Never be in the same place with psychics for more than 5 minutes. They may destroy you.

dosn't matter. 15 seconds in a few thousand feet of a dog boy or psi-stalker and you'd be found out.

- Tectonic Entities: We are fully aware that once your body is destroyed you can not inhabit another for 12 hours. This is acceptable, but try to be in an active physical body as much as possible, preferrably a Coalition robot, power armor or vehicle.

as above, they can't possess stuff that big. sorry, dont' work.

- If you are probed by a psychic, my name is Girtrude and I am about to head into the magic zone (implant lies).

please. they wouldn't know if they suspeced. actually, after the fight started no one there would be heading into the magic zone so that's irrelevant. and that's only if they use telepathy. presense sense, sense evil, sense magic, and dog boys and psi-stalkers would pick them up ANYWAY. no chance.

- On the last day, grab all equipment you can, scatter and stash them (at this rock) (under that tree) and go free.

as above, they wouldn't last that long.

Meanwhile, Guido and his buddies move to a hidden location safely outside CS borders, tap into a CS news & propaganda station and wait for the havoc to hit their screen. Popcorn all around. When the havoc is over, they do their circuit of all the stash points, moving carefully and using sensory abilities and covering their tracks. If there's nothing there or there is a CS presence, then they'll just skip that stash. No stash location is ever used twice, and each stash is miles away from the next. Just to be safe, a few entities (a couple extra scrolls... a few days work at most) will always be around them and scouting from high altitude in energy form.

except it wouldn't work the first time, so no stashes to get.

besisdes, a full blown undercover investigation would be be done shortly afterwards. and don't think that one foolish apprentice won't tell the story to a friend, who tells the story to another. . .

edit: and an attack on that scale would surely tip of a clairvoyant a few DAYS in advance, so the patrols would be steped up, as would security. making it all that harder.

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm curious... how about a specific scenario.

A level 9 Shifter (call him "Guido") has eight followers (all literate). He has the spells of Create Magic Scroll and Summon and Control Entity in his list of powers. One of his students is also a very skilled interrogator and brainwasher who knows how to break a human's will, given time.

that's never a garentee. but for the sake of argument let's say you manage to brainwash him.

One day Guido sees a patrol of normal CS infantry. They're part of a platoon and are scouting the area to make sure it's secure. Guido summons a possessing entity and tells it to possess one of the squad members as soon there are 1 or 2 alone. The entity waits for its chance and possesses one of a pair that are refilling waterskins. The possessed CS soldier does a sneak-attack on his buddy, kills him and runs off to meet with Guido before the rest of the squad finds out what happened. Guido and all his entourage are gone before the CS has a chance to find them.

first of all: in my game, a CS patrol never stops to refill anything. they return to base before it's needed. it's rarely more than a few hours they run and any further than that is run by SAMAS or Windjammers. this is done to prevent exsactly this senario. they've had something similar happen (I thought of this senario before as well) and now run patrols like this to prevent it.

but for the sake of argument let's just say they break polocy and do so.

Guido ties up the soldier and frees the entity, and his interrogator takes his time with his craft, eventually (a few months later) turns he CS soldier into Guido's willing pawn. This pawn we'll name "Jim"

again, we'll just say he manages sinse it's possible he escapes, suicices, or just proves unbreakable (hey, this is a game about the extrodanary).

Now Guido is on good terms with a wizard's circle who "own" a Ley Line Nexus. He gives them the down payment of Jim's laser rifle in exchange for a month's rent of a room in the "mage's inn" on the nexus. Every day at noon, dinnertime and midnight, Guido has access to more than enough PPE to make a scroll of Summon and Control Entity. In total, he spends at most 3 hours a day, and the rest teaching his students and reinforcing the bond between himself and Jim, and learning as much about the Coalition as Jim knows. Over the month, Guido makes (3 scrolls/day x 30 days) 90 scrolls of Summon and Control Entity, each of which can call & control an entity for 9 full days. He gives each follower 10 scrolls for the main event.

this get costly after a while, and that alone makes it hard to do. though a 9th level shifter is well a master and would likely own one in his own right, so let's just say he has access.

On the chosen day, Guido has prepared Jim for his mission and give him a horse (which he bought or stole). The group is 1 day's travel by horse from a CS city. Guido and his 8 disciples each use up all their ten scrolls, right after each other and summon 45 Tectonic Entities and 45 Possessing Entities. The 90 entities are given the following instructions:

ok. one days ride by horse isn't that far. i'd give you about a 65% chance of being detected by SAMAS or windjammer partol at this point, but for the sake of argument, lets say you evade decetion.

- Follow Jim into CS territory (a military base which Jim knows has less psychic security)

dosn't exsit. while some will be more heavy by numbers, there will psy-stalkers at all and it's fairly standard at all bases within a DAYS RIDE BY HORSE TO A CITY. for that matter, it'd likely be heavy at that range for this reason. assume they are intelligent.

- When he has reached a place and says so, you must possess robots

cannot be done. says so specifically under tetonic entites.

power armor

arguable. only the old Death's Head SAMAS is small enough, literally the maximum. others are too big, and the old school is being phased out.
possessing people is another matter. they can save, but they'd eventually fail.

and people and begin killing everyone in sight. Keep chanting a prearranged chant while you kill everyone, so you know who not to attack. The chant is something random but confusing like "Backup! Call for backup!" or "Help me! Please don't kill me!" or "I love you!"

only the possessing entites could, but that'd still cause confusion. good idea.

- Until 8 days are up,

they'd be gone long before this. Psi-battaion would show up and exorise the lot. and it wouldn't work well. the psi-stalkers, dog boys, and psi-battation would show up long before this. reinforcemtns.as soon as any SAMAS or construct would be formed by the tectonic entity it's be nailed by so many lasers, rail gun fire, and explosives it'd be annailted in short order. the psichics would find out the possessed instantly, restian them and exorcise the entity. in fact, using that along they'd proally be able to send them all back to their deminsion this way in about 3 days or less.

and now here is where Psi-battaion really shines though. the bodies are all destoryed. the master psycics, like zappers, bursters, and mind melters, use see the invisable to see them. then start a psychic assult that annilates them in short order. same for the possessing entites. unable to fight back, ordered to stay togeather, and fobbiden to leave by the same magic that summoned them there, they'd be destroyed in short order, likely less than a day. though they would cause some serious damage.

stay together, team up and keep doing as much damage as possible. So long as Jim is alive and not controlled by another, he should be kept safe and his instructions followed. If he dies, stay close and help each other to survive and destroy and kill.

- Never be in the same place with psychics for more than 5 minutes. They may destroy you.

dosn't matter. 15 seconds in a few thousand feet of a dog boy or psi-stalker and you'd be found out.

- Tectonic Entities: We are fully aware that once your body is destroyed you can not inhabit another for 12 hours. This is acceptable, but try to be in an active physical body as much as possible, preferrably a Coalition robot, power armor or vehicle.

as above, they can't possess stuff that big. sorry, dont' work.

- If you are probed by a psychic, my name is Girtrude and I am about to head into the magic zone (implant lies).

please. they wouldn't know if they suspeced. actually, after the fight started no one there would be heading into the magic zone so that's irrelevant. and that's only if they use telepathy. presense sense, sense evil, sense magic, and dog boys and psi-stalkers would pick them up ANYWAY. no chance.

- On the last day, grab all equipment you can, scatter and stash them (at this rock) (under that tree) and go free.

as above, they wouldn't last that long.

Meanwhile, Guido and his buddies move to a hidden location safely outside CS borders, tap into a CS news & propaganda station and wait for the havoc to hit their screen. Popcorn all around. When the havoc is over, they do their circuit of all the stash points, moving carefully and using sensory abilities and covering their tracks. If there's nothing there or there is a CS presence, then they'll just skip that stash. No stash location is ever used twice, and each stash is miles away from the next. Just to be safe, a few entities (a couple extra scrolls... a few days work at most) will always be around them and scouting from high altitude in energy form.

except it wouldn't work the first time, so no stashes to get.

besisdes, a full blown undercover investigation would be be done shortly afterwards. and don't think that one foolish apprentice won't tell the story to a friend, who tells the story to another. . .

edit: and an attack on that scale would surely tip of a clairvoyant a few DAYS in advance, so the patrols would be steped up, as would security. making it all that harder.

As usual you make some pretty good arguements though as usual you also fall into the "the CS is all-knowing and all-powerful" GM plot device...
To a point the Shifter and his cronies would be successful, they'd just have to hit patrols, et cetera rather than a base. And what do you suppose it would do to the morale of the troops who had to vape their own buddies, possessed or not?
As for psi-hounds and psi-stalkers, that's why they wouldn't actually want to hit a base... but send the guy in to talk to a patrol, and he'd be more successful... and then you'd have a patrol to go back to the base with. Granted they'd likely be "sniffed out" fairly easily, but they'd still be close enough to do some damage. And the CS is hardly rife with master order psychics... read the Psyscape and Coalition War Campaign books and you'll see what I mean. They have a FEW, yes, but it's less than 1 out of a hundred minor and major psychics, something like that.
I'm sure that in your campaigns the CS and its troops are well-nigh invulnerable, judging by your posts, but in mine they're as likely to be successfully attacked as is feasable given the size of the group, surprise, armaments, et cetera on BOTH SIDES.

[Dustin Fireblade]

True, true... I never really thought the nuke thing made much sense and the Vanguard... well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think their numbers are that high. I don't think that the mages have to be of such high levels as you think.

Some useful items for low-mid level mages you need to keep in mind:
-Ley lines and nexuses to give them ppe and mess up the psi-stalkers and dog boy senses. (plentiful in Minnesota)
-PPE batteries (a dime a dozen in Tolkeen)
-TW gloves of teleport lesser (for grenades and fusion blocks)
-TW enhanced armor: typically - Impervious to energy, aura of death, invis: simple, armor of ithan
-TW frequency jammer
-Scrolls: numerous low to mid level scrolls were available and several high level scrolls were available
-Every TW weapon Stormspire could think of and a few they wish they had!

Players with a decent amount of cash could really do some damage to the CS!

Well thats another thing that bugs me, loading down with all kinds of magical stuff, no matter how powerful or minor.

Another thing is the ley lines. Why fight the enemy where they are strongest? (For that matter why divide your forces and attack another strong nation?) Honestly once I discovered my missiles cant get into the city proper of Tolkeen, then I'd turn the surrounding area into a massive crater.

[Vrykolas2k]

True, true... I never really thought the nuke thing made much sense and the Vanguard... well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think their numbers are that high. I don't think that the mages have to be of such high levels as you think.

Some useful items for low-mid level mages you need to keep in mind:
-Ley lines and nexuses to give them ppe and mess up the psi-stalkers and dog boy senses. (plentiful in Minnesota)
-PPE batteries (a dime a dozen in Tolkeen)
-TW gloves of teleport lesser (for grenades and fusion blocks)
-TW enhanced armor: typically - Impervious to energy, aura of death, invis: simple, armor of ithan
-TW frequency jammer
-Scrolls: numerous low to mid level scrolls were available and several high level scrolls were available
-Every TW weapon Stormspire could think of and a few they wish they had!

Players with a decent amount of cash could really do some damage to the CS!

Well thats another thing that bugs me, loading down with all kinds of magical stuff, no matter how powerful or minor.

Another thing is the ley lines. Why fight the enemy where they are strongest? (For that matter why divide your forces and attack another strong nation?) Honestly once I discovered my missiles cant get into the city proper of Tolkeen, then I'd turn the surrounding area into a massive crater.

And they'd use magic to send your missiles somewhere else... at least some of them. What I'd like to know is, if Tolkeen could create such powerful defense systems, why not make some sort of magical gate to Chi-Town when the CS launched its missiles?
Simple answer, because as far as I know there's no spell extant which could do such a thing... to CSs benefit of course lol.

[Ed]

=Malignor
I'm curious... how about a specific scenario.

A level 9 Shifter (call him "Guido") has eight followers (all literate). He has the spells of Create Magic Scroll and Summon and Control Entity in his list of powers. One of his students is also a very skilled interrogator and brainwasher who knows how to break a human's will, given time.

At this point you have described a mage that represents the top 1%, level wise in NA.

One day Guido sees a patrol of normal CS infantry. They're part of a platoon and are scouting the area to make sure it's secure.

A CS platoon securing an area with no counter magical support? No Dog-boy scouts, Psi-stalkers, psi-talents of any kind. Unlikely.

Guido summons a possessing entity and tells it to possess one of the squad members as soon there are 1 or 2 alone.

And that summoning took how long? Time Guido couldn't move, act ot otherwise evade detection.

The entity waits for its chance and possesses one of a pair that are refilling waterskins.

LMAO. I'm sure the CS fills up waterskins in unsecured areas all the time.

The possessed CS soldier does a sneak-attack on his buddy, kills him and runs off to meet with Guido before the rest of the squad finds out what happened. Guido and all his entourage are gone before the CS has a chance to find them.

WHat if the other guy wins the fight? In any event there's little likelihood one trooper taking his partner down quickily or silently enough to prevent the rest of the squad from intervening. Ever hear of radio?

Guido ties up the soldier and frees the entity, and his interrogator takes his time with his craft, eventually (a few months later) turns he CS soldier into Guido's willing pawn. This pawn we'll name "Jim"

Now Guido is on good terms with a wizard's circle who "own" a Ley Line Nexus. He gives them the down payment of Jim's laser rifle in exchange for a month's rent of a room in the "mage's inn" on the nexus. Every day at noon, dinnertime and midnight, Guido has access to more than enough PPE to make a scroll of Summon and Control Entity. In total, he spends at most 3 hours a day, and the rest teaching his students and reinforcing the bond between himself and Jim, and learning as much about the Coalition as Jim knows. Over the month, Guido makes (3 scrolls/day x 30 days) 90 scrolls of Summon and Control Entity, each of which can call & control an entity for 9 full days. He gives each follower 10 scrolls for the main event.

On the chosen day, Guido has prepared Jim for his mission and give him a horse (which he bought or stole). The group is 1 day's travel by horse from a CS city.

I thought the patrol was in an unsecured area? One days horse ride from CS terriotry there's a active wizard's circle on a nexus that's not under constant surveilance?

Guido and his 8 disciples each use up all their ten scrolls, right after each other and summon 45 Tectonic Entities and 45 Possessing Entities. The 90 entities are given the following instructions:

- Follow Jim into CS territory (a military base which Jim knows has less psychic security)

And some private is going to know the intimate details of base security?

[Nekira Sudacne]

As usual you make some pretty good arguements though as usual you also fall into the "the CS is all-knowing and all-powerful" GM plot device...

why not? everyone else thinks that these dragons are, porting in and out of chi-town, know just where to hit? if magic can be all-knowing, so can the CS

To a point the Shifter and his cronies would be successful, they'd just have to hit patrols, et cetera rather than a base.

not the senario in question. yes, 90 entities could ANNAILATE a patrol of 12, but when they stop reporting back, and get calls for backup, a full scale force will come to them.

And what do you suppose it would do to the morale of the troops who had to vape their own buddies, possessed or not?

wouldn't have to. restrain them, KO them, or just get rid of a limb or three (hey, can alwasy borg or bio-system them back, but more likely tackle) and imprision them. then the psi-healers can exorsie at will. (or have more try until they manage

As for psi-hounds and psi-stalkers, that's why they wouldn't actually want to hit a base... but send the guy in to talk to a patrol, and he'd be more successful... and then you'd have a patrol to go back to the base with. Granted they'd likely be "sniffed out" fairly easily, but they'd still be close enough to do some damage.

true. but that's not the order they were given, they were told to attack the base. they HAVE to attack the base. to the death!

And the CS is hardly rife with master order psychics... read the Psyscape and Coalition War Campaign books and you'll see what I mean. They have a FEW, yes, but it's less than 1 out of a hundred minor and major psychics, something like that.

why I say give them 1-3 DAYS to win. psi-battaion takes time to organise for a good assult, and they arn't going to risk what masters they have lightly or without preperation.

I'm sure that in your campaigns the CS and its troops are well-nigh invulnerable, judging by your posts, but in mine they're as likely to be successfully attacked as is feasable given the size of the group, surprise, armaments, et cetera on BOTH SIDES.

Same with me

they can do a lot, but in my game, they HAVE lost and players even managed to destroy one base themselves.

they just have to do it right, and think it though. (and hit HARD and FAST, but that's another story) and this was before the new war machine.

I play them logically, but when people here start talking about anchient dragons, top 1% spellcasters doing it single-handed or in a small group, making them essentailly clost to all powerful like they do here on these boards, I respond in kind. as GM, I'm NOT making it that easy. it all depend on the scale of the game.

level 1 party of humans generally run into green grunts who make stupid mistakes. (sometimes, hardly always)

level 10+ mages, dragons, and the like, for me, run into like forces.

[Vrykolas2k]

As usual you make some pretty good arguements though as usual you also fall into the "the CS is all-knowing and all-powerful" GM plot device...

why not? everyone else thinks that these dragons are, porting in and out of chi-town, know just where to hit? if magic can be all-knowing, so can the CS

To a point the Shifter and his cronies would be successful, they'd just have to hit patrols, et cetera rather than a base.

not the senario in question. yes, 90 entities could ANNAILATE a patrol of 12, but when they stop reporting back, and get calls for backup, a full scale force will come to them.

And what do you suppose it would do to the morale of the troops who had to vape their own buddies, possessed or not?

wouldn't have to. restrain them, KO them, or just get rid of a limb or three (hey, can alwasy borg or bio-system them back, but more likely tackle) and imprision them. then the psi-healers can exorsie at will. (or have more try until they manage

As for psi-hounds and psi-stalkers, that's why they wouldn't actually want to hit a base... but send the guy in to talk to a patrol, and he'd be more successful... and then you'd have a patrol to go back to the base with. Granted they'd likely be "sniffed out" fairly easily, but they'd still be close enough to do some damage.

true. but that's not the order they were given, they were told to attack the base. they HAVE to attack the base. to the death!

And the CS is hardly rife with master order psychics... read the Psyscape and Coalition War Campaign books and you'll see what I mean. They have a FEW, yes, but it's less than 1 out of a hundred minor and major psychics, something like that.

why I say give them 1-3 DAYS to win. psi-battaion takes time to organise for a good assult, and they arn't going to risk what masters they have lightly or without preperation.

I'm sure that in your campaigns the CS and its troops are well-nigh invulnerable, judging by your posts, but in mine they're as likely to be successfully attacked as is feasable given the size of the group, surprise, armaments, et cetera on BOTH SIDES.

Same with me

they can do a lot, but in my game, they HAVE lost and players even managed to destroy one base themselves.

they just have to do it right, and think it though. (and hit HARD and FAST, but that's another story) and this was before the new war machine.

I play them logically, but when people here start talking about anchient dragons, top 1% spellcasters doing it single-handed or in a small group, making them essentailly clost to all powerful like they do here on these boards, I respond in kind. as GM, I'm NOT making it that easy. it all depend on the scale of the game.

level 1 party of humans generally run into green grunts who make stupid mistakes. (sometimes, hardly always)

level 10+ mages, dragons, and the like, for me, run into like forces.

Never said the dragons would know just where to hit, but luck happens... you've got three dragons hauling say two iron golems and six armoured mummies or zombies apiece, teleporting into Chi-Town {go a step further then say they have photos supplied by normals or psychics who've gone through the permanent IC Bar Code for "extra trust", as tourist or whatever... ya they can 'port to a place in a photo if you must get entirely technical about how they get in}. Now think about 6 battalions to cover a city that size in shifts, and you've got a lot of dead civies in the time it takes for three adult to ancient dragons to have a bit of fun and drop off their "cargoes". Then they're gone. So the CS has to deal with these armoured undead "things" armed with vibro-swords. And figure out where the dragons came from for a reprisal. Not being hatchlings, they'd probably head into the magic Zone to stir up Alistair's pot a bit. {Why are three Death's head transports in my back-yard...?"}

[Dustin Fireblade]

Why fight along the ley lines? Because the CS has NO choice but to fight along the Ley Lines. They are invading a territory that is criss crossed with them. Every major town they need to destroy is built right next to the Ley Lines. All the major defenses are built along them. The only way for the CS to not fight along the ley lines would be to continually launch missiles from a distance. But without satellites they still need spotters on the ground or in the air. The spotters will be found and killed by magical means as soon as the missiles start hitting. Plus, Tolkeen has those neat ley line defense systems that eat up the missiles.

Well they are fighting to remove a enemy, but with that many ley lines and nexus points, there is no way that the CS can hold the land without being a constant battle. So my point is, drive the enemy away without exposing your own troops. Turn Wisconsin into a fortified war camp, lay waste to the land all around the cities, destroying as much as possible. Heck I'd even consider using a strategic nuke west of Tolkeen. Thats what I'm talking about, ruin Tolkeen's farmland and trade routes (that are left from normal blockade). Tolkeen either moves north to the bugs or south and attempts to counter the constant barrage, which brings them away from the ley lines and its protection. Keep infantry pressure up by throwing away the Skelebots at Tolkeen
Might even get lucky...forcing the Tolkeen defenders into close quarters with all their monsters and what not they brought up might be beneficial for the CS when tempers begin flaring.
Actually the CS kinda did this, using a scorched earth policy as they advanced during Final Siege, in the event they were pushed back.

[Capt. Meschievitz]

I agree with Technomancer and Malignor, well I find Technomancers comment true and very funny...."the CS knows everything" - yeah right.


Malignor, I believe yeah it could work, but it would be difficult @ best, but still do-able.


In my campaign we drew up alot of stat's to make a table top combat game to work out the the Sot that way it came down to player tactics, we had 7 tolkeen generals vs 5 CS generals (which translated into 3 Chi-town and 2 Free Quebec Generals), and it kinda fell apon the skelebots doing most of the fighting and alot of summoned forces fighting...but in the end the CS tactic's and overall strategy and some modification of unit to suit the comabt after a few battles(ie one was the dropping of the GL on the forearms of the Super SAMAS, and replacing them with either C-30 or C-40R rail-guns for close support work), basically overcame the forces of tolkeen.

[Capt. Meschievitz]

As usual you make some pretty good arguements though as usual you also fall into the "the CS is all-knowing and all-powerful" GM plot device...

Never said the dragons would know just where to hit, but luck happens... you've got three dragons hauling say two iron golems and six armoured mummies or zombies apiece, teleporting into Chi-Town {go a step further then say they have photos supplied by normals or psychics who've gone through the permanent IC Bar Code for "extra trust", as tourist or whatever... ya they can 'port to a place in a photo if you must get entirely technical about how they get in}. Now think about 6 battalions to cover a city that size in shifts, and you've got a lot of dead civies in the time it takes for three adult to ancient dragons to have a bit of fun and drop off their "cargoes". Then they're gone. So the CS has to deal with these armoured undead "things" armed with vibro-swords. And figure out where the dragons came from for a reprisal. Not being hatchlings, they'd probably head into the magic Zone to stir up Alistair's pot a bit. {Why are three Death's head transports in my back-yard...?"}

So basically your either as bad or worse than the CS....setting out to kill Civallians....yeah but that would work.....this proves that the CS is not the only force that has questionable morals, and I though the CS was the one who had one eyed supporters.....

[Capt. Meschievitz]

Exactly, all in all after seeing the a battlefield and what it's like to see people in a genosidal war...I still pick the CS...


no one is ever good or bad in a war, it's the way we are we need something to believe in and with the way Rifts is....you can never be totally ture and pure to the word good....You wouldn't find my character killing Civilains unless they armed themself, but being a Scrupulous character choice you would think hang on thats not very CS, even with the situation the Civies pick up arms, I have chosen not to attack first but try talking, unless i find out they are not playing by my rules ie sneak attacks(6th sence, a good ability to have), then i may been force to take drastic messures...weapons of mass destruction are not my fortay in combat unless in open conflict(uninhabited areas or openly hostile enviroments)....I have another player who is also Scrupulous but they believe diffently towards combat...thats the way we are......is it not...

[dark brandon]

Reasons like the one malignor stated are the reasons all mages are misted on sight.

A 9th level shifter being a days ride away from any CS base is begging to be mist.

I think that's what it's about. I'm sure one of the first things taught in boot camp is to keep pressure up on a mage. If you give them enough time to take a breath, you've given them enough time to kill you. The attack on Tolkeen is another one of those "keep the pressure on them" and was probably a relentless attack. Which is also why CS ended up going toe to toe with them. Hiding behind a rock will gain the mage time. But if there's a juicer on top of that rock it's pretty much over. In short, the CS HAD to get up close an personal with them, which is why juicers became a part of the army.

I really think what makes these type of plots difficult has to do with a mages own power supply (PPE), the pychics in CS who can view the future (Clar or Sixth sense) and their policy to kill everything.

[dark brandon]

I really think what makes these type of plots difficult has to do with a mages own power supply (PPE), the pychics in CS who can view the future (Clar or Sixth sense) and their policy to kill everything.

Again Clar and 6th sense don't work like a bad episode of true calling, or the one where the guy got tomorrow's paper today.

Clar and 6th sense was so "accurate" that the 4 horsemen.. you know.. DESTROY THE ENTIRE WORLD!!!!! couldn't be located any better then... "Well you know.. somewhere in africa...." and that was after a huge number of psi people got together to try to hammer out the dreams and visions they were having.

6th sense worked so well that the CS army got spanked in Quebec with nobody going... "Uh.. you know... I just checked into the future.. and we get our butts kicked... lets not do this."

It worked so well that the surprise attack called the Sorcs Revenge humilated the CS army in the field of battle.

Oh yeah, and lets not forget the 6th sense and Clar were so accurate that they forgot to inform the CS that it was going to get stomped baddly in the opening attacks against Tolkeen.

Or the time it failed to warn the CS about that tiny little raid known as the first attack from the Federation of Magic Circa 10 or so PA.

The Mechanoids were mistagged as the devouring swarm, and later the Bugs were tagged as the devouring swarm... and nobody knows who's right....

I always liked a series of books by Brian Humley where the hero had the power to discover bits about the future but he always said...

"Reading the Future is a devious thing, and one should never rely on it as the future has it's own plans."

I don't like Clar all that much. But I can't think of any other reason "Why" none of that could happen. Clar reminds me of things like nostredamas. He has all these visions, but they are quite useless because its only good after it happens.

To me, there really is no reason why this stuff shouldn't have happend. I think on a battle field I'd take tech over magic, but in times of peace and 'cease fire' magic has the upper hand (and a large hand at that). Since the only thing CS has is psychics and supirior intellegence (But it's far from perfect intell), it's a combination of these both that would help them out. Perhaps they did have sixth sense go off, but they wern't expecting such a huge attack. Perhaps they did see using clar. the events of the revenge, but didn't properly meld it with their intell.

[Capt. Meschievitz]

yeah true....Technomancer

What i said was from my own perception of being an ex-military.

I agree that nobody ever comes out of a war unscathed, but saying nobody comes back as "Good-guys", see this is where my personal beliefs kicks in, someone who starts a war is evil, if someone ended the war they would be good, which is a lose/win situation,but to the faction that stopped the war they would be the "good guys" in their own minds, which is kinda sicking to me persoanlly. I find you question your actions after a while, and it can take awhile to consolidate everything, and see the world as grey yes or grey no as you explain with ok that was morderate good,and that was very evil....

it really pepend on the conviction you have for the cause...

[Nekira Sudacne]

well first, going into 4D does NOT remove you from Clairvoyance. what may happen may happen. they extend into another dimension, they still have exsit in the other three, and can be dected.

malignor pointed out some others. again, only one point of damage from a pi-stalker and they're out.

then, it says quite plainly that they are arrogant, and that temprol raiders don't work togeather very well. besides, they'd hardly be fool enough to attack directly.

4. you CAN use all psionic powers though EBA. says so plainly in the GM's giude. also power armor. robots you can't, and vehicles you need to know EXSACTLY where they are to use them.

[dark brandon]

"To feed without killing, the predator must hunt down a psychic, practioner of magic, or supernatural creature, physically capture the prey, cut it, and psionically drain all it's available ppe."

Page 158 Rifts Lone Star.

If the psi-stalker has already "Captured" the temporal raider, then the mage has more problems then the sdc cut.

Sounds like a rule question. We've played it that if a mage is cut and a psi-stalker is nearby can see the mage getting cut and bleeds (Basically seeing the buffet is open for buisness), can drain him of all his PPE. No save, no roll. Your drained. It's what makes psi-stalkers so deadly to mages.

[GaredBattlespike]

I thought this too, until I looked at the CS Navy book again. The rules on the unrestrained-blast nukes is something like 1-3D4(X100) MD ! This is a nightmare for anything not immune to energy (at the moment of attack, and for a few days as the radiation slowly fades) ! Saturating a target area with just 4 of these bad boys would do about 4-12D4(X100) MDC=an average of 2000 MDC to every cubic meter in the area of about 1-4 miles! This should speak for itself. Yes, I know that the CS doesn't want to use these things unless it really has to, but my WORD! Then remember that missiles out range almost anything that magic/psi ever puts out. Power Bolt spell is good, but a Boom Gun or a mini-missile is better (and an armor piercing warhead isn't stopped by "Impervious to Energy" spell!)

[Lucas]

Just to throw in my own two cents on a couple of the examples under discussion:

1. Dragon Hatchling / other mage teleporting a nuke inti Chi-town (or whereever).

Rifts: Underseas makes it pretty clear that even the villanous Chi-Town sees nuclear weapons as a doomsday-type weapon of last resort. Only the nastiest of nasty mages would consider a plot like this, and they would likely be exposed by their collaborators or anyone else who found out about the scheme. (Not like there are piles of active nukes out there waiting for some nutty mage to find.)

2. Temporal Raiders busting into a CS base

I don't really have many problems with this example. I doubt a gas attack would be so successful taking out the garrison. (It would probably only get a few before the rest of the guards threw on their gas masks. Ever notice how basically every OCC carries a gas mask/air filter as part of its standard equipment?) However, as people have noted, Temporal Raiders are quite powerful. Even Splynn Dimensional Market mentions that the Splugorth have their problems with them. On the upside, they don't really have any politics or agenda besides enriching themselves, so they have no reason to launch a concerted attack against the CS. The fact that the CS is anti-magic/anti-D-bee shouldn't concern them in the least. After all, even if the CS takes over the whole planet, they've got a limitless number of other dimensions to live in.

[Vrykolas2k]

Just to throw in my own two cents on a couple of the examples under discussion:

1. Dragon Hatchling / other mage teleporting a nuke inti Chi-town (or whereever).

Rifts: Underseas makes it pretty clear that even the villanous Chi-Town sees nuclear weapons as a doomsday-type weapon of last resort. Only the nastiest of nasty mages would consider a plot like this, and they would likely be exposed by their collaborators or anyone else who found out about the scheme. (Not like there are piles of active nukes out there waiting for some nutty mage to find.)

2. Temporal Raiders busting into a CS base

I don't really have many problems with this example. I doubt a gas attack would be so successful taking out the garrison. (It would probably only get a few before the rest of the guards threw on their gas masks. Ever notice how basically every OCC carries a gas mask/air filter as part of its standard equipment?) However, as people have noted, Temporal Raiders are quite powerful. Even Splynn Dimensional Market mentions that the Splugorth have their problems with them. On the upside, they don't really have any politics or agenda besides enriching themselves, so they have no reason to launch a concerted attack against the CS. The fact that the CS is anti-magic/anti-D-bee shouldn't concern them in the least. After all, even if the CS takes over the whole planet, they've got a limitless number of other dimensions to live in.

Nukes... bleh... not as much fun as dropping unliving minions in to commit a massacre...

[dark brandon]

That's fine to play it that way but in the main book, and in every description of the Psi-Stalker I've read it always has the "Capture the Prey".

Choosing not to include that part of the rule would indeed make psi-stalkers much more dangerous... just like choosing to ignore the rules about saves vrs magic would make mages much more dangerous.

So, what does "capture the prey" mean? Does it mean that a psi-stalker just has to be touching the mage (so a simple brush could do it) or that he has to be touching 50% or more of his prey by lying on top of it?

I've always taken capture the prey as part of the "Cutting" meaning the mage has to be bleeding. A mage isn't gonna stand around and let you cut him.

[J. Lionheart]

So why hasn't it been done?
How did the CS survive?
Theories?

Having read none of this thread except the first post, I'll jump in with my theory, then vanish as fast as I came.

The CS survives because it is the central figure in Palladium's original concept of RIFT's earth. If they eliminated the CS, they would have to totally rethink their most successful product line, and that's just not something smart companies do. There is no justifiable RP aspect to the continued survival of the CS; it exists because Palladium can't afford to eliminate it.

[dark brandon]

So why hasn't it been done?
How did the CS survive?
Theories?

Having read none of this thread except the first post, I'll jump in with my theory, then vanish as fast as I came.

The CS survives because it is the central figure in Palladium's original concept of RIFT's earth. If they eliminated the CS, they would have to totally rethink their most successful product line, and that's just not something smart companies do. There is no justifiable RP aspect to the continued survival of the CS; it exists because Palladium can't afford to eliminate it.

That's a good reason OOC. I think like EVERYONE knows this. He's asking people to be creative and figure out why CS has survived in game with an IG reason.

[Vrykolas2k]

So why hasn't it been done?
How did the CS survive?
Theories?

Having read none of this thread except the first post, I'll jump in with my theory, then vanish as fast as I came.

The CS survives because it is the central figure in Palladium's original concept of RIFT's earth. If they eliminated the CS, they would have to totally rethink their most successful product line, and that's just not something smart companies do. There is no justifiable RP aspect to the continued survival of the CS; it exists because Palladium can't afford to eliminate it.

Because there are more CS grunts that there are magi... comparing Tolkeen to the Alamo; however, that doesn't always work, comparing Roerke's Drift in South Africa in the 1800's to Tolkeen if Tolkeen had survived...

That's a good reason OOC. I think like EVERYONE knows this. He's asking people to be creative and figure out why CS has survived in game with an IG reason.

[J. Lionheart]

That's a good reason OOC. I think like EVERYONE knows this. He's asking people to be creative and figure out why CS has survived in game with an IG reason.

Ooooohhh, my apologies. That's what I get for not reading carefully I guess. Sorry 'bout that, back to the debate!

[Hystrix]

When it comes down to it, magic is so much more powerful than technology it's not even funny. Why do you think all the gods, alien intelligences, etc rely on magic more than technology? The only truly Megaversal power I can think of that relies on technology would be the Mechanoids. Whereas Megaversal powers that use magic would include the Splugorth, all the pantheons, the old ones, etc etc.

OK, this kind of an answer needs to stop. If you wanna go this direction Matt, I could point out that the Death Star and the SDF -1's main gun are WAYYYY more powerful than any magic.

BTW, how powerful is the average mage? I don't beileve they have god-like power. If you wanna go to the upper limit for magic, then I'll go with the upper limit of technology (if there is one)...

The CS may not have the highest tech level in the Megaverse, but they have the highest and most wide spread tech in North Amarica. And they are certainly tougher then the other so-called magic kingdoms around them...

[Sureshot]

When it comes down to it, magic is so much more powerful than technology it's not even funny. Why do you think all the gods, alien intelligences, etc rely on magic more than technology? The only truly Megaversal power I can think of that relies on technology would be the Mechanoids. Whereas Megaversal powers that use magic would include the Splugorth, all the pantheons, the old ones, etc etc.

OK, this kind of an answer needs to stop. If you wanna go this direction Matt, I could point out that the Death Star and the SDF -1's main gun are WAYYYY more powerful than any magic.

BTW, how powerful is the average mage? I don't beileve they have god-like power. If you wanna go to the upper limit for magic, then I'll go with the upper limit of technology (if there is one)...

The CS may not have the highest tech level in the Megaverse, but they have the highest and most wide spread tech in North Amarica. And they are certainly tougher then the other so-called magic kingdoms around them...

I would say both of you are correct. Both magic and technology can be powerful. It also depends where you are. On Rifts earth magic is stronger. in the ropbotech universe technology is stronger. As for the CS being tougher than the magic kingdom around them it due to writers grace. There is no way the CS is going to get taken out because there are too popular with the fans. Finally to my knowledge there have been no offically sitings of either the Death Star no the SDF-1 on Rifts earth. And there probably won't be because both have been destroyed. If you play magic with the current rules it's easy to take out the CS. Other threads on this topic have made it very clear on how. It won't be too easy but it can be done.

[Sureshot]

TechnoMancer wrote:

"I'm telling you... God is on their side...."

There is a god and his name is Kevin Seimbeda

Malignor does bring up a good point. I had forgotten about how propaganda filled the CS is.

[Sureshot]

TechnoMancer wrote:

"I'm telling you... God is on their side...."

There is a god and his name is Kevin Seimbeda

Malignor does bring up a good point. I had forgotten about how propaganda filled the CS is.

No that's the Dweller Beneath.

Bah no matter Kevin could crush the dweller beneath with a mighty swing of his pen. No creature in the Palladium universe has a defence against that.

[Braden Campbell]

Q: How does the Coalition survive?

A: Very well, thank you.

And Technomancer:"if God be for us, who then dare stand against us?"

[Hystrix]

Q: How does the Coalition survive?

A: Very well, thank you.

And Technomancer:"if God be for us, who then dare stand against us?"

Demons and Devils!

"The devils also believe... and tremble."

[Hystrix]

When it comes down to it, magic is so much more powerful than technology it's not even funny. Why do you think all the gods, alien intelligences, etc rely on magic more than technology? The only truly Megaversal power I can think of that relies on technology would be the Mechanoids. Whereas Megaversal powers that use magic would include the Splugorth, all the pantheons, the old ones, etc etc.

OK, this kind of an answer needs to stop. If you wanna go this direction Matt, I could point out that the Death Star and the SDF -1's main gun are WAYYYY more powerful than any magic.

BTW, how powerful is the average mage? I don't beileve they have god-like power. If you wanna go to the upper limit for magic, then I'll go with the upper limit of technology (if there is one)...

The CS may not have the highest tech level in the Megaverse, but they have the highest and most wide spread tech in North Amarica. And they are certainly tougher then the other so-called magic kingdoms around them...

I would say both of you are correct. Both magic and technology can be powerful. It also depends where you are. On Rifts earth magic is stronger. in the ropbotech universe technology is stronger. As for the CS being tougher than the magic kingdom around them it due to writers grace. There is no way the CS is going to get taken out because there are too popular with the fans. Finally to my knowledge there have been no offically sitings of either the Death Star no the SDF-1 on Rifts earth. And there probably won't be because both have been destroyed. If you play magic with the current rules it's easy to take out the CS. Other threads on this topic have made it very clear on how. It won't be too easy but it can be done.

Actually Matt was talking about the powers of the Megaverse, not just Rifts Earth. The SDF-1 could be considered a power (it is out there). Just because there are gods out there dosn't mean they take any interest in Tolkeen, Lazlo, or the Federation.

And I would say that the two big powerhouses in NA are the Coalition States and Free Quebec with maybe Lazlo, and FoM next in line. Also there are tech nations like the Northern Gun, Mantesque Imperium, and Whykin. The Tech powers rule NA. They may be challenged on some levels, but they still rule...

[Svartalf]

TechnoMancer wrote:

"I'm telling you... God is on their side...."

There is a god and his name is Kevin Seimbeda

Malignor does bring up a good point. I had forgotten about how propaganda filled the CS is.

You misquot, the exact formula is, "There is no God but Prosek and kevin is His prophet"

[AbberantParticlesInAction]

It is my understanding that due to the CS paranoia about magic and psionics that security in the fortress cities is AT PEEK all day every day.

IT is also my understanding that travel through a CS fortress city is like traveling in communist Russia. Checkpoints at major intersections random checkpoints at secondary intersections etc. Also that the fortress cities are internally divided between the poor, middle class, and wealthy sections. That alone would prevent the teleportation. The CS paranoia and its resources have probably made both the middle class and wealthy sections sealed environments.

Also from my understanding the fortress cities are also hardened and sealed environments as a whole from the outside. Yes traffic does pass through main and secondary entrances, but not much. That mostly it is restricted to commercial and military traffic with few exceptions.

So with the there being no way to teleport through a sealed environment as magic can not penetrate it, and with the high security status of the frotress cities (with ISS roaming all over the place) the whole idea is nearly impossible. I liken it to trying to get away from the cops in LA. It is possible to do but the possibility drops dramaticly when you add helicopters, hoards of patrol cars, and police radio. Now just imagine adding psionics to that mix.....

[cornholioprime]

I think it goes a little deeper than that, at the same time more shallow...
Sure the CS is admittedly weak magically, but tech shouldn't be underestimated. The Federation was for a very long time peopled by squabbling factions, all too afraid to strike at their hated enemy for fear that a rival would destroy them in a moment of weakness. To an extent, it still is that way, though Alistair has untited most of it, he'd still be in a position of weakness if he launched an attack and say The Three decided they'd be next... being intelligent, they'd most likely intervene. Not necessarily on the behalf of the CS but rather for themselves and what they've built. Tolkeen didn't actually want a war, and were content to just have their own kingdom... they were of little real threat to the CS and hadn't supported terrorist action against the CS {individuals might have sure, but it was far from national policy...}.
In the end though the CS is there and won a relativley bloodless victory over Tolkeen because that's what a writer wants.

Agreed. Kevin will give the CS the occasional black eye, and in future Books he may slow or stop its expansion Plans, but he will NEVER destroy it. That would've been like Gary Gygax getting rid of, say.....all Dungeons. And Dragons.

[cornholioprime]

A weapon of mass destruction teleported into Chi-Town?! First, Chi-Town has a barrier that will preclude any attempt to teleport anything into the most important zones. Secondly, if you nuke Chi-Town, you nuke every reactor, in every sector, in every factory, in every power armor or robot. That would cause a nuclear catastrophe the likes of which the world has never seen. It would be a chain reaction that would not only engulf the CS in nuclear fire, but Tolkeen, Lazlo, part of the Pecos empire, it might even nuke everything in the central U.S. And once the CS is gone, and Lazlo with it, who is going to defend the human race from the myriad demons, monsters, and those mage types who are irresponsible with their magic use?

Ooookayyy, Krytykyll. Nuclear explosions don't really work like that (one Nuke blasty won't necessarily cause separate, unrelated Critical Reactions in other nearby, Radioactive Materials). And even assuming for the sake of argument that such a thing did happen, the vast majority of 'true' SN creatures and Creatures of Magic are IMMUNE to (external, not internal via U-Round) Radiation. One suspects that if a Super-Nuclear Detonation of the type that you speak of could be engineered, then someone such as Alistair would have done such long ago.

(Good thing that neither Alistair nor the 4 Horsemen know that the proper Bomb type, at the proper Megatonnage, would cause a Chain Reaction with ALL of the Nitrogen in the Atmosphere, and kill EVERY carbon-based Lifeform on or near the Earth's Surface....)

[cornholioprime]

Like most bullies, the CS picks fights that it knows it can win.

Agreed.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Any military worht its salt is only going to pick fights that it thinks that they can win.

[cornholioprime]

So why hasn't it been done?
How did the CS survive?
Theories?

Having read none of this thread except the first post, I'll jump in with my theory, then vanish as fast as I came.

The CS survives because it is the central figure in Palladium's original concept of RIFT's earth. If they eliminated the CS, they would have to totally rethink their most successful product line, and that's just not something smart companies do. There is no justifiable RP aspect to the continued survival of the CS; it exists because Palladium can't afford to eliminate it.

That's a good reason OOC. I think like EVERYONE knows this. He's asking people to be creative and figure out why CS has survived in game with an IG reason.

And THAT's the Problem. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for the CS to not only survive, but thrive, within the mechanics of the Game. Absolutely EVERYONE Magical should be committing a never-ending, DAILY Terrorist Attack here and there, agianst the CS, because of past History and current behaviour. The Coalition's Food-Producing States are still ABSOLUTELY unscathed, you say, even though they cover Thousands of Square Miles and should be impossible to completely defend??

Pffft!!

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

So why hasn't it been done?
How did the CS survive?
Theories?

Having read none of this thread except the first post, I'll jump in with my theory, then vanish as fast as I came.

The CS survives because it is the central figure in Palladium's original concept of RIFT's earth. If they eliminated the CS, they would have to totally rethink their most successful product line, and that's just not something smart companies do. There is no justifiable RP aspect to the continued survival of the CS; it exists because Palladium can't afford to eliminate it.

That's a good reason OOC. I think like EVERYONE knows this. He's asking people to be creative and figure out why CS has survived in game with an IG reason.

And THAT's the Problem. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for the CS to not only survive, but thrive, within the mechanics of the Game. Absolutely EVERYONE Magical should be committing a never-ending, DAILY Terrorist Attack here and there, agianst the CS, because of past History and current behaviour. The Coalition's Food-Producing States are still ABSOLUTELY unscathed, you say, even though they cover Thousands of Square Miles and should be impossible to completely defend??

Pffft!!

Everybody magical should be committing a terrorist attack?

So I should kill anyone that hates Italians, Irish and gamers?

I should be out killing atheist who attack me and the Jehovah's witnesses that show up at my door?

[Killer Cyborg]

Seems that there are an overwhelming number of tactics and theories about how the CS can be defeated using magic and supernatural means. Some examples...

- "Teleport: Lesser" a weapon of mass destruction into Chi-Town
- Assault from Greater elementals... Air above, Earth below
- Casting Drought on the CS bread basket
- Dragon teleport - hit & run tactics

========================

All of these ideas are very easy to come up with. Just looking at a couple of mage or dragon character sheets for a few minutes, I'm sure alot of us could come up with ingenious methods to make an "unbeatable attack" against someone like the CS.

Imagine how it must have been for the Federation of Magic. In the Conversion Book, there's a blurb about how the attacking FoM summoned a bunch of tectonic entities and used CS robotics against themselves. This is another "perfect attack" in that there is no way to stop it from happening again and again, each time causing more CS losses of equipment and lives, and all it costs the mages are a couple hundred PPE. The entities don't die, and can come back a few days later and try again until the control expires (1 day per level, if I'm not mistaken). That caster, if he could make scrolls, can spend a month making scrolls for his colleagues and they can all do a continuous onslaught from a place of safety. The FoM has secured a few ley lines so the PPE is no problem.

==================

So why hasn't it been done?

Anyone who has half a brain can come up with this stuff... all you need are some guys who are evil enough (and I think the FoM fit the bill) or desperate enough (Tolkeen, and likely dozens of small magic settlements who got in the CS's way) to do these sorts of things and suddenly the CS is rendered a helpless victim.

So why hasn't it been done?
How did the CS survive?
Theories?

The only real reason it hasn't been done is because KS either hasn't thought of it or because he doesn't care enough about consistancy to attempt to patch things up.

But we can (and usually have to) make up our own patches for the gaping holes in the game and the gameworld of Rifts.

So, let's see what we can pull out of our... hats... to spackle things up a bit.

- "Teleport: Lesser" a weapon of mass destruction into Chi-Town

1. What weapons of mass destruction?
-Nukes aren't very good in Rifts.
-Biological agents and chemical agents would likely be really tough to get ahold of, at least it would be tough to get ahold of anything that can compete with the medical technology of the CS... Remember, standard med packs have Nanites!

2. Teleport: Lesser has a range of 5 miles. How big is Chi-Town? How wide are the Burbs?

3. An unsuccessful roll to teleport something means that it could be anywhere within 5 miles of the caster. Including right next to him...
unlikely, but maybe a lot of mages don't like teleporting weapons of mass destruction for this reason.

4. Location familiarity, as other people have mentioned.

5. Force Fields prevent teleportation. Possibly the important parts of Chi-Town are protected by force fields.

- Assault from Greater elementals... Air above, Earth below

This is tough, because Greater Elementals are so powerful. The main problem being that they are "Impervious to normal weapons".

Here's what I got:
1. Greater Earth Elementals are "Impervious to normal weapons". Is that the same as "Impervious to all non-magic/non-psionic weapons"? Maybe... a lot of people seem to take it that way. But many creatures (like werewolves) who are definitely immune to MD weapons say things like "invulnerable to virtually all weapons, including megadamage energy weapons, explosives, bullets, fire, wood, and poison/drugs" (CB1ur, p. 191). The fact that they specifically list MD weapons may well indicate that MD weapons are not considered "normal". In which case Earth Elementals are subject to damage from standard CS weaponry.
Since the Air Elementals specifically include immunity from MD attacks as a seperate invulnerability from "normal weapons", I'd say that it's pretty clear that MD weapons aren't Normal.

2. Particle Beams. HU style Invulnerable characters are supposed to be immune to any physical attack or energy attack... but they DO take partial damage from Particle Beams. Even if elementals are immune to most MD weapons, Particle Beams might still do partial damage to them.

3. Air Elementals are definitely vulnerable to MD Energy weapons. The CS has a lot of energy weapons. If Chi-Town has some good Energy Cannons as part of the built in defense, which isn't unlikely, then they could likely destroy attacking Air Elementals.
Air Elementals may be invisible, but See Invisible is a minor psionic power that would be pretty popular among CS psychics (dog boys, psi-stalkers, Psi-Bat, and just random people/soldiers with minor psionics).

4. Psychics. Empathic Transmission, Hypnotic Transmission (along with Telepathy), Mind Wipe, Psychosomatic Disease, Radiate Horror Factor, and other psychic powers would likely be useful against Elementals, if only to slow them down.

5. The Vanguard. Not much help, but they could do a number of things to dissuade elementals and other magical attacks.
I don't know enough about them to argue exactly what they could or could not do, though.

- Casting Drought on the CS bread basket

1. If I were in charge of the CS, I'd have have a zillion dog boys and psi-stalkers protecting the food sources. Not to mention Negapsychics...
Since we don't know how the CS farms are set up, we don't know that they are not adequately protected.

2. A 10th level warlock could raise temperatures by 100 degrees in a 4000' area. That's pretty harsh!
But maybe the CS has particularly hardy crops. Maybe they picked up some DB strains from dimensions with wildly changing temperatures that can survive intense changes in temp (heat or cold).
Maybe they use advanced Genetically engineered crops to the same effect.
The spell also prevents rainfall within the radius, but that alone wouldn't do much to affect the overall water table of the area. Besides, the CS likely waters their own crops.

- Dragon teleport - hit & run tactics

Hatchlings would be easily killed or stopped and they can't do much damage.
Adult Dragons would be a threat, but they aren't that common.

1. Adult Dragons don't take petty threats like human empires as serious threats that often. Why try to take on an empire when you can just go someplace quieter and sit on your horde?
Of course, if the CS has killed or hurt an Adult Dragon's friend or loved one, this doesn't apply. And the CS is likely to do that periodically.

2. Again with the Psychics. Psi-stalkers and dog boys could detect dragons no matter what form they are in. Many psychic attacks can deter, pacify, or even capture Adult Dragons if they fail a save or two. Bursters can put out fires started by dragonbreath, Zappers can dish out damage, etc.

3. If any Adult Dragon, or group of dragons, presented a large enough threat, the CS would likely reconsider their ban on Uranium Rounds long enough to take the dragons out.

4. Bounties. Dragons have enemies, especially considering the value of their blood, bones, teeth, etc. This, along with a good enough bounty, can lead other people to do the Coalition's work for them.
It might make a good adventure...

5. Unless you manages to wipe out ALL the crops, the only people you're really hurt are the poor people and the civilian population.

[AbberantParticlesInAction]

There are a lot of good points being thrown out here about why this can and can't happen (though that should be might and might not happen). One of the other big reasons I think it doesn't happen is this. If, lets say, the FoM did do something like that, then Lazlo and all the other magic/psionic groups near the CS would go to war with the FoM I believe.

Why do I believe that?

Well I see it like this. Yes the CS hierarchy is evil, but it's people are not. The people have just been duped into believing that Debees are all evil, bloodsucking, demon worshiping, human hating monsters, bent on world domination/destruction. And I think that most of the other nations around the CS know this as well.

Most of the CS civilians think that they are safe because of the military and the Emperor and they allow things like the Tolkeen war to happen. What would happen if one of these groups (most likely the FoM) set off a nuke that killed 10,000 to 200,000 people? There would be a holy war! A jihad of sorts! The CS Military would see it's ranks reach epic numbers as it was filled with fanatics as well as regular people desperate enough to put their lives on the line to save their families and their homes and their civilization.

The CS is already seeing zealots as it is, and it would only get worse if such a thing happened. Say what you may about the other groups and nations around the CS but NONE of them are as big or have the resources that the CS does. And they know it!! So if a true CS jihad broke out in NAmerica the death toll would be horrific for everyone (the CS included). No one wants to see that.

An action like a nuke, bio-plague, magical drought, etc., only goes to prove the CS leaderships point about Debees and magic/pionics being tools of evil. And everyone is trying to disprove that point so there can be peace one day in RIFTS NAmerica.

In the end much of the reason a nuke (or other WMD) has not been set off in the CS is because of the leaderships paranoia. But also at the same time part of it is because Lazlo and others have probably worked against that situation as well.

[Larsen]

The CS survives in game because of the fact that they are very good at manipulating situations to benefit them. They don't just fight everyone, they also have spies everywhere sabotaging their enemies. But mainly they are still around because the creators want them to be.

Also Josh your comparison isn't accurate. If the italian haters or the jehovah witnessor the atheist suddenly started killing mass groups of people that you fit into that category with no help from a central government, others, maybe you or maybe not you would start attacking back and it would be perfectly justifiable.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i see alot of other stuff that people overlook just because its the Coalition

1. vanguard
2 human mutants( second class citzens, but most are loyal,just because they arent hunted and are cut some slack, by the cs)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

and remember larsen and his group still have family and friends in the cs, so if they get word about something bad is going to happened, they not going to sit back and watch, they might pass the word around along that something is up or be active in stopping it for happening