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Dead Boy wrote:Given that I had only played a little TMNTand Other Strangeness before coing on board for Rifts in 1990, I had very little exposure to the SDC system. As such I had no problems with playing with, and accepting the rules of, the MDC system of Palladium. Those that do gripe about MDC tend to have backgrounds in SDC game settings and there fore are disgruntal about the change.

If I were going to change the MDC system, it would be in such a way that would surely make those that hate the current system hate my idea even more if implemented. I would go from a two tier system, (SDC and MDC) to a three tired one, (SDC, KDC and MDC). MDC and SDC would still interact as they do now, but with the middle strata of damage capacity there would be a middle ground. KDC (or Kilo Damage Capacity) would be reserved for body armors, light to medium power armors, and small and civilian vehicles. Also on this scale would be their corisponding weapons that deal their damage in KD icrements and not MD. Mega Damage weapons and MDC protection would be reseved for the big bots, tanks and ships. The stuff that should be harder to kill and hit hard.

The way the third tier of damage woudl work is this
1 MD inflicts 10 points of KDC or 100 SDC
10 KD inflicts 100 SDC, but needs no less than 10 KD to do 1 MD or the attack will bounce (all attacks are rounded down too so 19 KD becomes 1 MD)
No less than 10 SDC inflicts only 1 KDC, and it too is rounded down. No amount of SDC can touch MDC with the exception of explosives, which can join 100 SDC to do 1 MD.

Other than that, I'd do nothing to change the MDC System.

Vrykolas2k wrote:Whiners... I'd flush 'em. Tell them to go away and play Dungeons and Dumbazzes and leave my fave game alone.

SunRunner wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:Whiners... I'd flush 'em. Tell them to go away and play Dungeons and Dumbazzes and leave my fave game alone.

I pretty much agree.

Dare I ask why? They are both role-playing games, each with their own set of assumptions and defaults ... neither is better, neither is worse.

MattBaby wrote:I would drop MDC entirely. If MDC had never been introduced in Robotech, way back when, RIFTS would be a far better game.

Mega-Damage contributes directly to power-creep in the game. While an all-SDC system could still suffer from power-creep, much of it is motivated by the desire to give normally SDC archetypes a chance in an MDC environment. For example, mega-damage Indians and ninja. It also changes the culture of the game in a way that is not fully explored. That is, the tremendous importance of Mega-Damage arms and armor. Why do people even wear regular clothing when you could be instantly slaughtered by a mega-damage weapon at any time without hope of survival? In short, MDC creates ramifications for SDC creatures that are never fully realized within the scope of the game.

MDC contributes nothing to the game. What is the purpose of MDC? Why does it exist? 'Cause it's from Robotech? Why did it exist there? So you can smash your way through buildings like Godzilla. Well that makes sense, but why do you need to create an entirely new game mechanic to model that? You don't need 2 scales of damage. Keep it simple, stupid.

I would also tighten up the rest of the system. Palladium's system, well, doesn't really make any sense in and of itself. Unlike other games, where things are clearly defined, Palladium's system is one where effects are modelled, but the interaction between effects is unclear. There are rules for individual things, but the way the rules interact is not consistent nor is it well-applied. It's just left up to individual gamers to figure everything out. And yea, that's one way to do things... but it's a pretty weak effort on Palladium's part.

Just wait till I finish my RIFTS: MattBaby Edition ruleset. Give them a chance, and you'll find you enjoy the game more-- I garuntee it.

MattBaby wrote:Just wait till I finish the alternate ruleset in a few months. You'll enjoy it more, I garuntee it.

MattBaby wrote:Just wait till I finish the alternate ruleset in a few months. You'll enjoy it more, I garuntee it.

Zylo wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MattBaby wrote:I would drop MDC entirely. If MDC had never been introduced in Robotech, way back when, RIFTS would be a far better game.

Mega-Damage contributes directly to power-creep in the game. While an all-SDC system could still suffer from power-creep, much of it is motivated by the desire to give normally SDC archetypes a chance in an MDC environment. For example, mega-damage Indians and ninja. It also changes the culture of the game in a way that is not fully explored. That is, the tremendous importance of Mega-Damage arms and armor. Why do people even wear regular clothing when you could be instantly slaughtered by a mega-damage weapon at any time without hope of survival? In short, MDC creates ramifications for SDC creatures that are never fully realized within the scope of the game.

MDC contributes nothing to the game. What is the purpose of MDC? Why does it exist? 'Cause it's from Robotech? Why did it exist there? So you can smash your way through buildings like Godzilla. Well that makes sense, but why do you need to create an entirely new game mechanic to model that? You don't need 2 scales of damage. Keep it simple, stupid.

I would also tighten up the rest of the system. Palladium's system, well, doesn't really make any sense in and of itself. Unlike other games, where things are clearly defined, Palladium's system is one where effects are modelled, but the interaction between effects is unclear. There are rules for individual things, but the way the rules interact is not consistent nor is it well-applied. It's just left up to individual gamers to figure everything out. And yea, that's one way to do things... but it's a pretty weak effort on Palladium's part.

Just wait till I finish my RIFTS: MattBaby Edition ruleset. Give them a chance, and you'll find you enjoy the game more-- I garuntee it.

mattbaby. . . why is it everything you see as Palladiums weaknesses I see as it's strengths.

making two different levels of damage IS keeping it simple, stupid. I grasped the concept in .00001 seconds.

Nekira, why is it that everything you see as Palladiums strengths I see as it's weaknesses?

Two levels of damage haven't kept things simple at all. Poke almost any human with a vibro weapon and they are dead, poke an SDC sedan and it explodes, shoot a gargoyle with a 16 inch cannon shell (SDC) and it's taken like 2% of it's damage capacity. Cannons that you could pack full of rifles that deal less damage that one of those rifles. Combat rules stating that any SDC weapon cannot combine lesser damages to equal MDC, but you can add a machine gun, not rail gun, to your hover bike that does minimal MDC (isn't it like 1 or 2D4?) with a 50 round burst. Having 30 foot robots that are not even twice as tough as a suit of human sized power armor. Having a bow that generates a 2D6 MD blast for being pulled back 2-3 feet while nuclear LRM does a pittance of damage. The damage scales and applications are all whacky and I don't see how you can say otherwise. Any evidence to explain away all of the complaints?

You can say you understand it instantly, but I don't thing your looking beyond the shell of this egg. MDC was great for giant robots, but it breaks down when applied ad-hoc to a smaller environment.

Shaded_Helios wrote:Zylo wrote:

Poke almost any human with a vibro weapon and they are dead,

Um...no. Just like getting shot with an MD laser isn't instant death. The vibro weapon will go through flesh and bone like a hot knife through butter. That doesn't mean that touching an MD vibro weapon to SDC flesh will liquify it.

poke an SDC sedan and it explodes,

...

No. I can't bring myself to explain why this is not so. I'm just going to assume that you were recently exposed to some rather potent fumes that have temporarily impaired your ability to think rationally.

Zylo wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:For the robots, here goes... don't know if you know much about metallurgy, but the more you spread something out, the weaker it gets... for instance, if you made a sedan with a body as thick as the armour plating of a tank, it would be tougher than said tank. Why? Because its mass is more "centralized" if you will... just a simple rationalization. So if you used the same amount of metal that you use to make a Glitter Boy, only you make say a Devastator instead, it won't be as tough for its size as said Glitter Boy.

So they make a 150 million cred robot and give it paper thin armor? Why wouldn't something that size have appropriate protection to help guard the investment? 50 guys with pulse rifles could take it out in a melee...that certainly does not make sense to me.

Besides, armor something relative to the job being performed. That's why APC's have light armor to defend against light weapons, and tanks have heavy armor to defend against other tanks and tank killing weapons. APC's do not charge tanks. There is no rational like this in the design, it's all cool factor and putting something in a range defined by the original book. I see the problem being you have flight capable things like SAMAS and aircraft that are nearly as tough or tougher than ground vehicles. Does that make sense? Why not use whatever super-light armor is on the flyers, on the tanks? It was calculated before, years ago, that a UAR-1 Enforcer was as tough as a cardboard box, pound for pound.

So the bigger the weaker is your rational? So power armor that holds a person, the exoskeleton itself,a power source, a computer, a flight system, and whatever else can be tougher cause it's smaller? Because the "mass is more centralized" even though displaced by a human body and on board systems? That I don't buy, sorry.

There isn't much science behind Palladium's rules, which if fine. I know they are going for "fun" at the expense of plausibility. I just wish they'd put some thought into things and maybe offer a bit of reasoning....like most sci-fi authors.

Zylo wrote:

Shaded_Helios wrote:Um...no. Just like getting shot with an MD laser isn't instant death. The vibro weapon will go through flesh and bone like a hot knife through butter. That doesn't mean that touching an MD vibro weapon to SDC flesh will liquify it.

Yes, it is. A character with 100 SDC and 50 HP (one tough hombre) is stabbed with a vibro knife from a one-eyed kobold. The guy takes 3 MD, which is 300 SDC/HP, which reduces him way, way below his PE, which means death. I didn't say liquify, I said poke someone with it and they die. Where exactly in the books does it say you will magically live?