Forums of the Megaverse®

TechnoMancer wrote:In every book I've read where the psi-Stalker race is listed, the ability to drain a mage without killing always has the line "Capture the prey" in it.

However many many many people on this board seem to ignore that part of the description. Is there a reason for it?

I've seen one person suggest that a psi-stalker can drain any mage of all of their ppe if they see the mage in question get cut even at range where the psi-stalker had nothing to do with the damage.

So the question is this....

well, it's gennerally hard to cut a mage if he's kicking, but I'd hardly see how it's a requirement.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
well, it's gennerally hard to cut a mage if he's kicking, but I'd hardly see how it's a requirement.

Page 158 of Lone Star adds "Physically Capture the Prey" while the main rule book says "Capture the prey".

As to how it's a requirement... cause um.. the rules say so? Much like they say you have to roll to hit, and that certain powers require X number of PPE, or that some powers get a save.

Other then the rules saying it's a requirement... um.. nothing I guess.

well, now you have the tricky job of defining "capture".

is a wresting hold enough, or do you need handcuffs? or arms tied. or hogtied. or is he just phisically restrained in movment. would a jail cell work? or a bag? or do you need to hog tie the mage?

good point Technomancer. I never really put much stock in it, but your right, I guess having them phisically under control is needed for the Psi-stalker to drain it's PPE (without killing him)

personally though, I think that just having a hand on them and holding on to them so they can't phisically get away is enough

i just sort of assumed you had to capture a mage in order to cut one. They don't just stand around and let people cut them. naturally you have to chase them and CUT THEIR FACES.

but why would it make a difference in the actual draining/eating if a mage was restrained? PPE doesn't change when a mage is restrained. maybe they need to be knocked unconcious first?

I always just figured they needed to concentrate a scoche to feed, and you can't do that if you're running around chasing someone... they need to be at least partially static.

I believe the best middle ground for this would be Touch-5ft away (within arms reach). That would also mean the Psi-Stalker inflicts the damage that makes the Mage bleed.

This seems to support all the facts of Psi-Stalkers. They love bladed weapons (especially in the pictures), are feared by Mages (more so at close range), and follows the given rules enough to balance them out.

The capturing idea seems, to me, to be the 'humane' way to feed.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just sort of assumed you had to capture a mage in order to cut one. They don't just stand around and let people cut them. naturally you have to chase them and CUT THEIR FACES.

but why would it make a difference in the actual draining/eating if a mage was restrained? PPE doesn't change when a mage is restrained. maybe they need to be knocked unconcious first?

Yeah. I mean the actual physically capture part was part of the cutting process.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just sort of assumed you had to capture a mage in order to cut one. They don't just stand around and let people cut them. naturally you have to chase them and CUT THEIR FACES.

but why would it make a difference in the actual draining/eating if a mage was restrained? PPE doesn't change when a mage is restrained. maybe they need to be knocked unconcious first?

cut their FACES? why the face? the neck is much better, or the arm... plenty blood to be found there.

and remember, the idea in capturing the mage and cutting it is to make is so sure it's about to die that it "releases" his PPE for the stalker to drain ... so you don't need to restrain the victim, but it can make for a nice preparation l

I've always found that a bit contradictory. They can absorb a dying mage's PPE in its totality times two from up to 200 feet away, but they have to be right on top of one who's bleeding, gagged and thoroughly hog-tied just to get it out of the caster otherwise? The two extremes in these two conditions seem a bit excessive and inconsistant to me. What's needed here is a middle ground... a third option. Something like if the caster is bleeding, the Psi-Stalker can absorb 2D6 times the stalkers level in PPE up to 100 feet way per melee action of effort. I'd be satisfied with that.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:I've always found that a bit contradictory. They can absorb a dying mage's PPE in its totality times two from up to 200 feet away, but they have to be right on top of one who's bleeding, gagged and thoroughly hog-tied just to get it out of the caster otherwise? The two extremes in these two conditions seem a bit excessive and inconsistant to me. What's needed here is a middle ground... a third option. Something like if the caster is bleeding, the Psi-Stalker can absorb 2D6 times the stalkers level in PPE up to 100 feet way per melee action of effort. I'd be satisfied with that.

The difference is that the mage is dead, he's not resisting in any shape or form.

That's a fine house rule, but it's not supported by any rule in the books that I've seen. ((I'm really looking for book rules that I have missed that seemed to have given people the idea that psi-stalkers can drain mages just because they happen to be bleeding.))

THe part where it says he must be cut (but only needing to do 1d6 damage) and a psi can absorb it.

TechnoMancer wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:

TechnoMancer wrote:

Dead Boy wrote:I've always found that a bit contradictory. They can absorb a dying mage's PPE in its totality times two from up to 200 feet away, but they have to be right on top of one who's bleeding, gagged and thoroughly hog-tied just to get it out of the caster otherwise? The two extremes in these two conditions seem a bit excessive and inconsistant to me. What's needed here is a middle ground... a third option. Something like if the caster is bleeding, the Psi-Stalker can absorb 2D6 times the stalkers level in PPE up to 100 feet way per melee action of effort. I'd be satisfied with that.

The difference is that the mage is dead, he's not resisting in any shape or form.

That's a fine house rule, but it's not supported by any rule in the books that I've seen. ((I'm really looking for book rules that I have missed that seemed to have given people the idea that psi-stalkers can drain mages just because they happen to be bleeding.))

THe part where it says he must be cut (but only needing to do 1d6 damage) and a psi can absorb it.

It never says that.... "Capture the Prey" is always in description as well.

I could see your ruling if somewhere the psi-stalkers fully described power was stated like...

"A psi-stalker can cut a mage and drain them of all PPE."

But every place the power is fully described, ((Not a short chopped down listing in a char description)) I've always seen "Capture the Prey" sometimes even the more descriptive... "PHYSICALLY capture the prey".

Whatever man i'm done. I've said why I think they do. You can call it a house rule if you like. I believe i'm playing by the rules with psi-stalkers. the "physically" capture the prey, in my opinion, is just an add on to the "must cut" which means they must be bleeding from a wound that does 1d6 damage (Gunshot cuts so that works too, blunt weapons may not work, which is why all psi-stalkers carry knives)

TechnoMancer wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:
Whatever man i'm done. I've said why I think they do. You can call it a house rule if you like. I believe i'm playing by the rules with psi-stalkers. the "physically" capture the prey, in my opinion, is just an add on to the "must cut" which means they must be bleeding from a wound that does 1d6 damage (Gunshot cuts so that works too, blunt weapons may not work, which is why all psi-stalkers carry knives)

Ok... that's fine.. I'm still confused how you go from a power that is described as requiring a capture.... to "they just need to be cut".

Seeing as you are done... can anybody find a page number that changes or clarifies the psi-Stalker power in such a way that "Capture" = "Just needs to be bleeding"?

it's just hard to imagine how the power needs to have them captured in order to work. I don't see how i'd be a requirement for PPE drain. I think that it was more discription on how they usually do it than it needs to be done. hard to cut them if they arn't under your power in rifts, what with MDC armor and all.

the power opening a rift at an elcipse for 100 souls is a rediculous exsample, and you know it.

in one of our games, i threw a knife at a mage (cuz she had me stuck on a carpet of adhesion) and sucked all her PPE away. we spent a half hour going through the books to make sure it was possible, and we found no logical reason why it was not. even the dood playing the mage said it was totally legal.
so there. i win again. im the best at rifts.

shaded helios wrote:The Rifts Main Book states that an unwilling mage's PPE cannot be stolen from him. At the moment of death...that's another story altogether. The books makes it clear that the mage spends years building his PPE and reinforces it with numerous mental defenses.

There is no simple 'capturing, cutting, draining' of mages in my games.

which is too bad, since that's obviously the intent of the system, an exception to the rule that you can't steal PPE from a trained mage ... since, normally, the only way is to kill him, put it in a situation where he *could* be killed, where he believes he *will* be killed... and that special power of the psi stalker comes into play that rips his PPE from him at a time he can no longer defend it properly. .. I guess that technique could be used by most PPE vampires, only most prefer the rush from freshly killed prey

BTW, a psychic NEVER gives up his ISP to a stalker. Losing half one's ISP is a side effect of having one's PPE taken by the stalker

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
it's just hard to imagine how the power needs to have them captured in order to work. I don't see how i'd be a requirement for PPE drain. I think that it was more discription on how they usually do it than it needs to be done. hard to cut them if they arn't under your power in rifts, what with MDC armor and all.

the power opening a rift at an elcipse for 100 souls is a rediculous exsample, and you know it.

It's easy for me to imagine, I read it in the books. What you are saying really is that you ignore any rule that you don't "see how it would work".... which is fine, but then that's sort of the way house rules are defined.

I'm not trying to argue peoples house rules, just the rules as stated in the rule books. The Rule clearly states "Capture".

there are many rules that I enforce that I see no reason why or see how they would work. a rather lot in fact. I just also define some things in teh discritions of powers as "flavor text" and are irrelevant in the actual mechanics of the power. so I do not consider this a house rule.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:there are many rules that I enforce that I see no reason why or see how they would work. a rather lot in fact. I just also define some things in teh discritions of powers as "flavor text" and are irrelevant in the actual mechanics of the power. so I do not consider this a house rule.

So you aren't argueing the fact that you don't believe it's in the rule....

You aren't argueing that it is explained another way elsewhere.....

You do admit to running the power differently then the way the book describes it....


But yet you claim that isn't a house rule?

no, because I belive the way I interpret it as "flavor text" was the way it was intened to be used.

the spirt of the law, as opposed to the letter of it.

Technomancer... have you folllowed the paired firearms thread ?

It seems that miss Nekira is utterly convinced that whatever her fantasy tells her the rules should be is the one true and official rule of the game.

while she has a solid knowledge of most of the corpus and canon and is usually right... well, she refuses to acknowledge that she can err and houserule as well as any of us.

svartalf wrote:Technomancer... have you folllowed the paired firearms thread ?

It seems that miss Nekira is utterly convinced that whatever her fantasy tells her the rules should be is the one true and official rule of the game.

while she has a solid knowledge of most of the corpus and canon and is usually right... well, she refuses to acknowledge that she can err and houserule as well as any of us.

I know I CAN errr, but obviously if I use a decsion I don't think it's wrong or I wouldn't use it.

I'll take KS's personally ruling, or whoever the author of a particular book that is in question in, over my own anyday. or if not admit it's a houserule.

but the thing is that Palladium Books can err in their wording as surely as anyone else. sometimes I think the author didn't say what he ment, or rather let something slip and put something in there that may have been flavor as a rule, as surely as anyone else. they are human too.

my interpretation on both counts are what I belive the authors MENT, if they erred in saying it. if they say otherwise at a later date I will accept it, but until then, I'll keep with my own.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
I know I CAN errr, but obviously if I use a decsion I don't think it's wrong or I wouldn't use it.

I'll take KS's personally ruling, or whoever the author of a particular book that is in question in, over my own anyday. or if not admit it's a houserule.

but the thing is that Palladium Books can err in their wording as surely as anyone else. sometimes I think the author didn't say what he ment, or rather let something slip and put something in there that may have been flavor as a rule, as surely as anyone else. they are human too.

my interpretation on both counts are what I belive the authors MENT, if they erred in saying it. if they say otherwise at a later date I will accept it, but until then, I'll keep with my own.

Last Try....

KS writes Rifts.... in the main rule book Psi-Stalkers are listed along with their powers.

Included in this description is the "Capture the Prey" Rule.

Later on... KS writes Lone Star... in the Lone Star Book Psi-Stalkers are listed along with their powers.

Included in this description is the "Physically Capture the Prey" Rule. Note the subtle change. He doesn't just keep with the Capture the Prey rule... he expands it to PHYSICALLY capture the prey. Why the change? I have no clue but it makes things even tougher on Psi-Stalkers.

ummm. . . no, it says PHISICALLY capture the prey in the main book. it was all copy/paste.

and yes I did get it out and re-read it for this discussion.

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
ummm. . . no, it says PHISICALLY capture the prey in the main book. it was all copy/paste.

and yes I did get it out and re-read it for this discussion.

Hmm.. I re-read and the Physically was indeed always in the rule, that's cool.. for some reason I didn't think it was at the start. However it's still not a cut and paste ((even though the wording is the same)) because of the Paragraphs change. Notice in the XI book, he's changed the paragraphing of the statement.

So again... KS has published this rule 3 times. You said....

"if they say otherwise at a later date I will accept it, but until then, I'll keep with my own."

So now you are in a rock and a hard place... KS has said *3* times that the physically capture the prey rule is in place in *3* different books.

So it will be interesting for me to see if you follow what you say or continue argueing.....

rearagning order dosn't not mean content was reviewed.

I'd say what the 'Stalker absorbs is lost.

If the 'Stalker is down some P.P.E., he'll gain up to max, then "eat" the rest. The 'Stalker's doubled P.P.E. for dying will be his own maximum P.P.E. x2.

Borast wrote:I'd say what the 'Stalker absorbs is lost.

If the 'Stalker is down some P.P.E., he'll gain up to max, then "eat" the rest. The 'Stalker's doubled P.P.E. for dying will be his own maximum P.P.E. x2.

corecct. unlike the mage, who stores PPE for future use, the PPE a psi-stalker absorbs is used for nouishment and to facilitate it's biological funtions. anything they eat is immidately absorbed and effectivally "digested"

TechnoMancer wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:in one of our games, i threw a knife at a mage (cuz she had me stuck on a carpet of adhesion) and sucked all her PPE away. we spent a half hour going through the books to make sure it was possible, and we found no logical reason why it was not. even the dood playing the mage said it was totally legal.
so there. i win again. im the best at rifts.

Err... because the mage in question and the GM don't follow the rules means you are right??? Err.... If it was a house ruling that's fine... but the rules do state you have to Capture the person you are trying to drain... ((or kill them)).

she was 'captured' when i threw a knife at her face. captured with FEAR. of KNIVES.
oh no, did i just win again? i love this game.

Shaded_Helios wrote:

in one of our games, i threw a knife at a mage (cuz she had me stuck on a carpet of adhesion) and sucked all her PPE away. we spent a half hour going through the books to make sure it was possible, and we found no logical reason why it was not. even the dood playing the mage said it was totally legal. so there. i win again. im the best at rifts.

You have just contributed to my theory that a growing number of people are being exposed to some sort of stupidity inducing agent. I don't know if its in gaseous, liquid, or cosmic radiation form, but you show all the signs of exposure.

Check out page 162 of the Rifts Main Book. Bottom of the right hand collumn. Read carefully. Repeatedly. Then go see a doctor immediately before permanent brain damage occurs.

whatever. i'll throw a knife at you too. then i'll eat your PPE without 'capturing' you. then you'll be like "Oh this sucks. I can't cast spells! I lose! I need more Stupid Water!"

TechnoMancer wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
rearagning order dosn't not mean content was reviewed.

You did say that if the Writer said at a later date that the rule was correct you'd follow it. KS has stated the rule 3 times now..... and you still don't agree?

You just argue cause you like to... right?

you misunderstood. he copyed the rule, not said it was correct.

I ment saying at a later date adressing specifically adressing that one particular aspect of they psi-stalker, just reprinting the class don't count. I was also thinking of was meeting Kevin at a Convention sometime and asking him in the flesh also.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:she was 'captured' when i threw a knife at her face. captured with FEAR. of KNIVES.
oh no, did i just win again? i love this game.

whatever. i'll throw a knife at you too. then i'll eat your PPE without 'capturing' you. then you'll be like "Oh this sucks. I can't cast spells! I lose! I need more Stupid Water!"

GG! n0 rE tHx!

I just find it amusing that Nekira (who is always defending PB rules and can't seem to understand why anyone wouldn't use the rules as they stand) can't admit to using a house rule when it is so obvious.
"Flavour Text" is just a nice way of saying "I'm going to ignore that bit because I don't like it.".

I think the only way to settle it is to ask the big man himself, I would be very suprised if he agreed with Nekira.

Or maybe he would but introduce a -10 to absorb rule.

The problem with assuming that the line "Physically Captured" means that the Psi Stalker can't use his PPE Suck power at any time other than the moment of death is deeply flawed. The Psi Stalker is described as being a PPE Vampire, more than implying that they can forcefully extract the life-giving energies that nurture them. Yes, the prefer to kill while performing their PPE Drain, but that's because the PPE of the victim is doubled at the time of death. But either way it shouldn't matter whether the mage is tied up or shot from a 100 meters away. The forceful extraction of PPE from a life mage is against his consent in either case. Just because you have someone "Captured" doesn't mean they will allow themselves to be violated in such a manner. Even if only on a subconscious level they will resist. The book makes no reference to having to threaten to kill the magic user or break his will before the PPE drain. Only some extremely vague reference to being captured and that 1D6 of bloodletting SDC damage be done. No matter how you cut it, the drain will be against his will.

The reason why I point this out is because the it is clearly stated in the books that mo mage can have his PPE willingly taken by another mage. And yet in the case of the Psi Stalker we have a creature that can do just that. He can steel the PPE of another against his will. How? By the spilling of blood via the 1D6 SDC cut. Blood is the key to the mage's power. Spill his blood and his life energies are vulnerable, (I'll address more on this later). But there's still the issue of this "Physically Capture" line.

Much has been made of the "...physically capture the prey..." line, and is in fact the whole of Techno Mancer's case, (restated in 20+ posts! He's tenacious, I'll give him that). But the thing he and others are either glossing over to make the case, or just overlooking, is that the line is in the middle of a larger sentience, making a larger point. The point the book is trying to make is that this is the world of Rifts Earth... a Mega Damage environment! The act of killing is all to easy and common with the advent of MD weapons and attack spells. The procedure described is one designed to drain a mage of his PPE while at the same time not injuring him too badly... without killing him, (which is against CS standing orders and why they may want to do that at all). So how do you draw blood in a Mega Damage environment without the risk of killing someone? Get up close, physically hold him down, and cut him with a knife in a non-vital spot. Then the PPE can be accessed and there is no risk of killing the prisoner. It's not about a limitation of their power, it's about military protocol and not recklessly jeopardizing the life of a prisoner who may have vital information.

So let's explore this a bit more, one step at a time. Can a Psi Stalker perform his PPE drain on a mage who is captured and cut with a knife? Sure, that's the textbook procedure. But after he cuts him, does he have to make physical contact to draw out the PPE? The book makes no mention about the power having a range of "Touch" in this aspect. In fact the ONLY mention of range regarding this power is that it is effective out to 300 meters/yards. Ok, given that he should be able to cut the mage and then take a few steps back before doing the energy suck. So, if it is possible to feast on the PPE from afar, instead of cutting him with a knife, what if he shot him in the arm or leg with a .22 pistol or maybe a 9mm? Either way the 1D6 SDC (or more) will be inflicted and the blood will flow. Would it be possible to drain him them? The damage is done and the mage is in range, so it should be possible. So if that's possible all from ten feet away, why is it so much of a stretch for it to be done at 50 feet, or 100, or even out to the full range of the power? The only real criteria that must be met are that 1D6 SDC be done to get the blood flowing and that the target be in the Psi Stalker's power's range. If the Stalker doesn't care about not killing the prey or otherwise, then the "...Physically Capture..." part need not apply, because all that pertains to is the taking of the PPE while ensuring that the supernatural individual is not mortally harmed.

TechnoMancer wrote:This may sound a tad insulting... but don't take it the wrong way...

Just how many times does Palladium have to publish a rule before you go... "Uh.. after seeing it in print X times I have to imagine that they you know.. meant to have the rule like it is."

3 is obviously too low for you....

4? 5? 6?

Just curious....

You know, I used the same argument to justify that, prior to the deliberate nerfing in the Bionic Source Book, that the PB Forearm Blaster was capable of firing bursts of any size because its ROF of "Aim Burst or Wild" was reprinted in 12+ printings of the Main Book, in addition to being listed as "Equal the Number of Hand to Hand Attacks", which according to this website's official errata also means burst-capable. But despite the multiple reprintings, very few believed me. They blew it off as a type-o in the first place and a "Cut & Paste" screw-up there after.

So given that this has gone unchanged since its first appearance in the Main Book, and IF your interpretation of the line is the correct one, why should I consider this anything more than a possible "Cut & Paste" screw-up like others regarded my bursting particle beam?

sorry Dead boy, but I must express some kind of disagreement with what you just said ... Indeed the "capture and cut" procedure has to do with some kind of a protocol ... only it's not military : as you yourself pointed out, the CS army would much prefer that any mages or rogue psychics the stalker feeds upon be killed at once (well, of course, maybe they do let some leave and use them as walking fridges... Given the number of psi stalkers they have in the army, and their err... peculiar food requirements, I just wonder how they keep them fed). the protocal is about stalkers wishing to feed and, for whatever reason, not wishing to kill their food source... I do believe it has to do withmaking the victim go through a near death situation (believing they are about to be killed or the like), which, for some reason, would make their PPE vulnerable at that point, contrary to the normal case. In a way, having to capture and subdue the victim physically is metaphorical to bringing down his mental resistance and overcoming the normal immunity to PPE drain... part of the idea being that, since normally only death releases the coveted PPE, the victim must be put in a situation where he is close to death, or believes to be so.

The question of range, so far as I'm concerned is moot : the 300m range is given for the distance at which the stalker can absorb *death released* PPE. the draining from a live and resistant victim must be up, close, and personal. sure, the "cutting" could be effected by shooting the victim with a bullet, but it would still have to be at point blank range, within arm's length. Just shooting the , still free and able to resist, target, even from as close as 5-10 ft away does not do it.

One thing I have noticed is that at no point is there any mention of a creature being able to voluntarily let himself be drained by the stalker... which would agree with their nature as PPE *vampires* . Being drained of PPE by one is totally different from giving PPE to a mage and would be a necessarily traumatic experience, like being drained by a temporal raider, or bitten by a vampire..

OOT Dead Boy ... I don't have the bionyc book... so what's the point of your example with the particle beam? did they confirm its burst capacity (the ruling I've always used) or rule that it's single shot only?

You guys keep going back to the idea that the Stalker has to be standing right on top of his victim and beat him into submission in order to get the mage to submit to the PPE extraction. And yet in the posts before there were numerous challenges to find book canon text to back up any claims to the contary. But on the flip-side I see no such lines that say anything having to go throgh this song and dance. Nothing about beating down the mage's mental defenses, nor a word that says the the non-killing form of the PPE Suck requires physical contat to work. Not a darn word. All I see is a line that spells out a procedure (and not neccessarily the only procedure) to do it while ensuring that the victim is at no time at risk of death.

You want to prove me and my interpetation wrong? Then dig up some text (list book and page number) that directly says that the non-lethal form of th drain MUST, 1) be at point blank, arms' reach range, and 2) that the victim's mental defenses must be overcome somehow before the PPE Suck can be preformed. However, given that no such lines of text exist anywhere in canon material, I still contend that the power is much more utilitarian than you guys are giveing it credit for.

svartalf wrote:OOT Dead Boy ... I don't have the bionyc book... so what's the point of your example with the particle beam? did they confirm its burst capacity (the ruling I've always used) or rule that it's single shot only?

To be honest, they completely did a 180 and listed it and all bionic weapons as "Each single shot counts as one melee action". But they've been messing with the Rates of Fire on a lot of weapons that were previously burst capable, so I don't see that as a strike agsainst my earlier contention regarding the Forearm PB's ROF.

Even so, the point I was tring to make for the purposes of this debate is that just because something is repeated in a later book doesn't reinforce its strength as a rule given Palladium's overuse of the Cut & Paste function which has lead to numerous type-o's and screw-ups.

VvMagnusvV wrote:... if the psi-stalker had only to nick a dragon or god and could then feed at will it seems wrong.

That's why I suggested the House Rule idea of introducing a middle ground approach that allows them to forcefully extract a limited amount as a thrid option to the "Bound and Gaged" interpetation and the "Moment of Death" drain. A ranged drain that would enable them to suck out 2D6 times the level of the Stalker in PPE per melee action. It was just a thought.

TechnoMancer wrote: Every time the Psi-Stalker appears the rule includes Physically Capture the Prey. You are saying that the rule is wrong.... come up with a book quote to prove the rule is wrong. Or else accept it as written.

If I said it was -40 to dodge energy blasts and you go.. uh no.. the rule is -10 in Rifts... from the following quotes....

I would look foolish if I then said... "Uh.. no.. that's just your way of looking at it... prove book wise that my -40 view isn't correct...."

I see it, but apparently I see it differently than you. Unlike the god-awful -10/No Bonus dodge rule, there are no set numbers for the non-lethal version of the PPE drain. There is nothing about the Psi Stalker having to defeat the mage's mentla defenses, (you guys made that crap up all an your own). Nothing about how it has to be a touch attack of sorts with no range. All I see is a technique that ensures the victim doesn't die during the PPE extraction, period. And instead of giving me hard numbers backed up by book canon, you give me speculation and suposition based on two generalized words and nothing more. If you want to win me over, it's going to take more than a something that's a typical Palladium Cut & Paste job of text that was written some 14 years ago and hasn't been updated since. Only the numbers will convince me of possibly being wrong, not "becasue I say so" based arguments.

Shaded, don't throw rules out of context.

a) that rule is a general one, and is superseded by material specifically dictating the contrary.

b) it applies to the ability of a mage to tap power (PPE) from unwitting bystanders, not the special powers of PPE vampires.

BTW psionics do not have the same protection, but you don't see any mention of stalkers being able to drain their PPE without recourse to the capture and cut protocol.

Begging pardon... but even if it's less environmental than Invincible Armor, AoI is till an all encompassing, full body forcefield... I'd say it would still insulate the wearer from a stun mace

both are fragging force fields. even if IA also hadds protection from poison gas and background radiation... it's not the same as environmental armor.
Far as I'm concerned, either both provide effective protection from a neural mace, or neither does ... I mean, where do you see the seal breaks in AoI

Has anyone given any thought to CS psi-stalkers yet? How do you soppose the CS feeds the thousands of stalkers that have either joined or were born into the CS???

Here's my two cents on the subject of psi-stalker feeding habits:

The CS, through propaganda, holds "PPE Drives", much like the Red Cross does Blood Drives today. Peaple, especially minor psycics, volunteer to have thier PPE drained by psi-stalkers. After all it comes back naturally, and "only hurts for a bit". A sterile needle doing a single point of SDC would be injected into the person sitting in a chair and a psi-stalker, possibly sitting on the opposite side of a wall, would then drain the volunteer of thier PPE. The captured part of the rule wouldn't apply as this person has volunteered to have thier PPE drained so capture would be irrelivant. Also I imagine that more than one psi-stalker could drain a victim...or volunteer at the same time, splitting up the PPE among those psi-stalkers within the 300 yard range. That would probably be how tribes of wild psi-stalkers all share in the hunt. Otherwise they would only hunt by themselves. For fear that if their buddy got the kill first they would starve.

As for wild psi-stalkers, or CS stalkers outside of the cities, they would probably kill thier victom most of the time. After all it states that they do tend to be a bit bloodthirsty, and it does double the ammount of PPE they would get.
But if for whatever reason they only wanted to feed, and not kill, then they would simply use the natural abilities of all psi-stalkers. Sneak through the forest, not disturbing any of the woodland creatures or even making the birds startle at thier presence. And when close enough to the unsuspecting mage, simply jump out and tackle him. One swift stab with a knife while holding the mage down, and drain away. This same stunt could be used on many supernatural creatures, with the possible exception of dragons and exceptionaly large creatures. I'd say simply overpowering someone would qualify as a capture. I agree that the book says capture, and use that rule in my games. But capture doesnt' mean forever either. If a mage is attacked this way then there should be an initiative roll also, to see if the mage could possibly get a spell off before his PPE was drained. Thats how I personally run Psi-stalkers.

Also as a side note to all of you that enjoy arguing about this topic I will now throw gasoine on the fire simply because I'm an evil bastard.
If psi-stalkers are sopposed to be able to drain magic users of thier PPE, and not all magic users ar psychic, then why does the main book say, on page 105 at the bottom of the page, "NOTE: The psi-stalker can not feed on the PPE of non-psychics."?????

Argue at will.

Shaded_Helios wrote:Look at page 162 of the Rifts Main Book, near the bottom of the right hand column. It specifically says that a mage's PPE is protected by mental defenses that they've spent years building. It also says that it's impossible for a mage's PPE to be drained from him if he's unwilling.

There isn't an exception made for the Psi-Stalker. The book says it's impossible. So, you don't need numbers or specific rules for stealing a mage's PPE. The Psi-Stalker cannot do it unless he kills the mage, in which case he can absorb the dying mage's PPE from 300 meters.

There you go. Specifically from the book.

Dude, this is exactly my point. This highly relivent page makes no mentiuon about how a mage can have his PPE stolen (by another mage) if he is beaten down or foced to submit. No, it says that it is "impossible" to take it by force. The same goes for non-magic casters as well; that they can completely shut out a mage that is attempting to syphon off his PPE. But yet this is exactly what the Psi Stalker does. Be it by the method Techno Mancer endorses or my interpetation of the same lines, the Psi Stalker rips these energies from his victim with NO save and NO means of stopping him. The PPE is rended from the target and no amout of protest or mental blocking can stop the viloation.

Another thing that counters that claim is that the same page in the RMB says that no more than HALF of a person's PPE can be stolen. And yet, that is not what happens with the Psi Stalker's drainning atack. The Stalker will take ALL, 100%, the totality of, a mage's PPE. According to that page that is impossible, and yet that's exaxtly what happens. So it is painfully obvious that the Psi Stalkers PPE drain is completely exmept from the mage v mage rules on pg. 162.

And as to my argumet that the power can be used at range if the victim has sustained 1D6 SDC that results in blood loss... frankly I have made my case. At this point either you side with my contention or you don't, and no further amount of argument will change your mind one way or the other.

Malignor wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:If psi-stalkers are sopposed to be able to drain magic users of thier PPE, and not all magic users ar psychic, then why does the main book say, on page 105 at the bottom of the page, "NOTE: The psi-stalker can not feed on the PPE of non-psychics."?????

Argue at will.

That's a mistake in the RMB. I know it was corrected in Lone Star, on p. 158 under 6. Nourishment. I'm too lazy to pull out my Xiticix Invasion book, but I'm guessing the correction was there as well.

Says that they need to feed on a psychic, supernatural being or practitioner of magic. Not just psychic.

Yep, there it is. RMB, pg. 105, "...can not feed on the PPE of non-psychics.". But in the newer and more updated WB:13, Lone Star, pg. 158, it's been changed to, "... can not feed on the PPE of beings who are not psychic, parcticioners of magic, or supernatural in nature." Problem fixed. [/crisis of faith]

Oops! Double post.

Sorry about the triple post, guys. System was getting weird on me.

what does it mean to have a mage 'captured' anyway? does it mean you have to be sitting on top of him in a wrist lock? Whoops, he teleported away. guess he wasn't "captured" after all.
does he have to be handcuffed and ankle-cuffed? whoops, he flew away, guess he wasn't "captured" after all.
maybe he has to be tied to a tree. whoops, he cast carpet of adhesion on me, then Escape on himself. Guess he wasn't "captured" after all.

and then all the psi-stalkers starved to death because only idiot mages with no magic ever get "captured".

so come on, define for me exactly what it means for a mage to be "captured".

unless he already had the spell ready to be cast or you use PPE channeling rules. whoops the psi-stalkers just starved again.

Malignor wrote:Also, you can't cast Escape when you're gagged. Says so in the description.

As for PPE Chanelling rules, they're not official. If they were, then the rules revolving around psi-stalkers would also have to change accordingly.

change into what?

Geeze guys...look at it this way.

Someone attacks you while walking to your front door.
They tackle you and land on top.
Before you can even realize what's going on, they stick a needle in your throat.
Now your angry and push them off and get to your feet, ready to punch kick and scream.

The same could happen to any mage at any time. Taken by surprise, for even that breif moment they are vulnerable to attack and before they can do anything thier PPE has been drained. If a moment latter they regain thier senses and get themselves "Un-captured", makes no differance. The book states that the prey must be captured, it doesn't say captured permenantly. Just captured for as long as it takes to suck out thier PPE. Whatever happens after that is irrelevant, the PPE vampire has fed, and the Mage better hope his E-clip is fully charged.

TechnoMancer wrote:Well... they also list the time to feed as 2 actions, about 5 seconds.

So you have to stay captured long enough for the feeding to take place.

No problem really. First action is to tackle and attempt to feed. Then it's up to an initiative roll to determine if the psi-stalker manages to finish his din-din in time or not. Regardless of who wins the initiative the mage is going to have to use an action to try to do somthing. Either a strength vs strength roll to push the stalker off, pulling a weapon, or starting a spell. The stalker simply chooses to go simultainiously with the mage and finishes chow. It's a simple use of existing rules. Stalker wins, mage loses.
If you want to get technical about it both the RMB and Lone Star states QUOTE:" The absorption process is instantaneous (about 5 seconds)." It says nothing about it taking 2 actions. So if you rule that the stalkers first action is only to tackle, fine. Simply go back to rolling initiative, stalker either wins and drains, or loses initiative and chooses to go simultaniously and drains. Either way stalker WILL win and the mage WILL lose. By the book!

If the the way Techno Mancer interpets the rules is the correct one (and I'm making no concessions here), it's even worse for the Psi Stalker. Not only is the feeding time five seconds in length, but remember, by the book he also has to inflict a 1D6 SDC knife cut as well after the mage has been captured. So by the book it would go something like his.

Melee Action 1: Psi Stalker tackles the Mage with knife in hand. Mage, obvioulsy knowing what the Stalker has in mind begins to cast a Time Slip. Since Time Slip is a 6th leve spell so it will go off at the end of the second melee action (another level 1-6 spell would go off at the end of the melee round).

Melee Action 2: The Psi Stalker now needs to cut the mage with his SDC knife. But the mage, like most of his OCC type, is wearing non-environmental, non-metal armor wiht some exopsed parts to allow his body access to the rich PPE-filled environment. This means that, though not totally screwed, the Stalker must make a Called Shot to strike wihth the knife to hit one of the vulnerable openings in the armor. That means that he only has a 45% chance of success to get the cut in, otherwise it may as well be game over. But for the sake of argument, let's say a 15 was rolled and the cut found its mark. Meanwhile the mage is finishing his spell. *BLAMO!* The Time Slip went off there is now a 60 foot sphere of frozen time.

Melee Action 3: The Psi Stalker was going to start the two melee action process of his PPE drain (based on the melee round's 15 second duration being devided by his 6 melee actions, making each action last exactly 2.5 seconds), but with the spell in effect, he has no actions for the imedate future. The caster can not slip out from underneith the PPE vampire and get to a safe distance. Maybe he'll use the rest of his time to cast a nice spell of Invincible Armor to prevent the Stalker form just jumping him again and starting the process all over again.

Result: The Psi Stalker goes hungry and the caster can cast with impunity.

OK, I know what you're thinking cause I'm thinking it too. If this is the obvious result of the Psi Stalker making his move on the first melee action, what would happen if he held back a bit and let the caster get his first spell out of the way? Let's explore:

Melee Action 3: The Caster just got finished launching a Power Bolt at one of the Stalker's partners, meaning that the PPE Lunch Box can't get another spell off till the end of the round, which we'll call action 6. With his mac-daddy Speed attribue the Stalker rushes the mage and tackles him, knife in hand. The mage, having fallen prey to Stalkers in the past starts to cast another Time Slip Spell (best escape spell ever).

Melee Action 4: Just like before the Stalker has to make a Called Shot (12 or better) roll to hit to draw blod with the SDC Knife. Again he gets lucky and beats the odds by rolling a 17. The mage can't do anything but continue with his spell and pray it gets off in time to save his precious PPE reserve.

Melee Action 5: Now the Stalker gets to begin his feast and can start the PPE Drain. He'll be done by by the end of his next melee action on 6, just before the Mage's escape spell can go off. Today, he gets his fill of PPE.

So in scenario two the Stalker gets his meal, but it was far from guaranted. First he had to make his To Hit with the tacklel move, which some GM's may called Wild becasue he ran to do it, imposing a -6 to hit. Secondly he had to make the Called Shot with the knife. If he failed to get the cut in with the very first attempt, the mage would have time to finish his spell and the jig would be up. Thirdly, the Stalker needed to win the initiative roll before any of this, otherwise even if all the other rolls went his way, he'd still come up short on time and the mage would get away. And let's not forget one more thing. What if the Mage had less melee attacks per round than the Stalker. Wouldn't that mean that the second spell gets to go off on the Caster's last action, before the Stalker's 6th? If that's the case, Mr. Whitey Clean is even more so screwed, making this even more so of a Kobyashimaru than ever before!

As someone pointd out, the best way would be to use a Neural Mace on the mage since he is unlikely to have the apporopriate defenses. This is even more so true given the examples above. But not all Stalkers have such weapons. Ture, all CS Psi Stalkers have access to the the stun weapons, but Neural Maces are not listed in the Equipment section for Wild Psi Stalkers. So if they absolutely need the stunners to even have a decent chance of making a non-letahal PPE drain, then how on Earth could a Wild Stalker ever pull it off? The answer is, under the interpetation of the rules as Techno Mancer sees them, they can't. And if a character has an ability that can neve be successfully used then that is a useless power. But there should be no shuch thing as a useless power. However, if my interpetation of the non-lethal PPE drain is correct, ah! ... suddenly it is usable and a viable tool to combat the supernatural.

So which way do you guys prefer things? TM's way, where the power will rarely work, even for the most experienced Stalkers, or under Dead Boy's read on the power, where the thing is actually useful and will work as advertised?

To TechnoMancer and Dead Boy....um..NO.

In my previous example the psi-stalkers atack is a surprise attack. Therfore it happens before initiative is even rolled, therfore is a free attack that does not count towards the psi-stalkers total for the round. Also please quote from the book where it states that the psi-stalkers feeding takes two actions?? The book states it takes "about 5 seconds", and "is instantaneous".

This is what would actually happen.

Pre-initiative:
Stalker paired strikes the mage. (They have paired as a natural ability. And you can do various combat manouvers, IE a disarm and a strike. See PG: 80 of RGMG "Warriors skilled in paired weapons can often perform two actions for every one mellee action/attack.") The stalker tackles and stabs the mage at the same time. Now the mage realizes he is in danger.

Roll initiative, high roll goes first:
As I stated it's irrelevant as to who wins initiative. Stalker simply chooses to go simultaniously with the mage unless he wins initiative of course. See PG: 31 of RGMG about simultanious attacks. The Stalker then begins to feed. As per PG: 105 of the Main Book, and PG: 158 of Lone Star: "Once the psi-stalker begins to feed, he cannot stop until all the PPE has been absorbed. The absorption process is instantaneous (about 5 seconds)."
Poof, one well fed psi-stalker and a very frightened mage.

Now if you disbeleive this, or want to argue somemore then I have two favors to ask. First off where in the books does it state that the feeding process takes more than a single action? As I've quoted several times the book states its Instantanious! My second favor is to ask you to quote some pages for your blatently wrong information so some of us could look it up for ourselves.
(Remember that while a Melee round IS 15 seconds, many of the original book archtypes only started with 3 or 4 actions at most. So 5 seconds out of 15 was equal to a single action.) Just FYI.

Dead Boy wrote:If the the way Techno Mancer interpets the rules is the correct one (and I'm making no concessions here), it's even worse for the Psi Stalker. Not only is the feeding time five seconds in length, but remember, by the book he also has to inflict a 1D6 SDC knife cut as well after the mage has been captured. So by the book it would go something like his.

Melee Action 1: Psi Stalker tackles the Mage with knife in hand. Mage, obvioulsy knowing what the Stalker has in mind begins to cast a Time Slip. Since Time Slip is a 6th leve spell so it will go off at the end of the second melee action (another level 1-6 spell would go off at the end of the melee round).

Melee Action 2: The Psi Stalker now needs to cut the mage with his SDC knife. But the mage, like most of his OCC type, is wearing non-environmental, non-metal armor wiht some exopsed parts to allow his body access to the rich PPE-filled environment. This means that, though not totally screwed, the Stalker must make a Called Shot to strike wihth the knife to hit one of the vulnerable openings in the armor. That means that he only has a 45% chance of success to get the cut in, otherwise it may as well be game over. But for the sake of argument, let's say a 15 was rolled and the cut found its mark. Meanwhile the mage is finishing his spell. *BLAMO!* The Time Slip went off there is now a 60 foot sphere of frozen time.

Melee Action 3: The Psi Stalker was going to start the two melee action process of his PPE drain (based on the melee round's 15 second duration being devided by his 6 melee actions, making each action last exactly 2.5 seconds), but with the spell in effect, he has no actions for the imedate future. The caster can not slip out from underneith the PPE vampire and get to a safe distance. Maybe he'll use the rest of his time to cast a nice spell of Invincible Armor to prevent the Stalker form just jumping him again and starting the process all over again.

Result: The Psi Stalker goes hungry and the caster can cast with impunity.

OK, I know what you're thinking cause I'm thinking it too. If this is the obvious result of the Psi Stalker making his move on the first melee action, what would happen if he held back a bit and let the caster get his first spell out of the way? Let's explore:

Melee Action 3: The Caster just got finished launching a Power Bolt at one of the Stalker's partners, meaning that the PPE Lunch Box can't get another spell off till the end of the round, which we'll call action 6. With his mac-daddy Speed attribue the Stalker rushes the mage and tackles him, knife in hand. The mage, having fallen prey to Stalkers in the past starts to cast another Time Slip Spell (best escape spell ever).

Melee Action 4: Just like before the Stalker has to make a Called Shot (12 or better) roll to hit to draw blod with the SDC Knife. Again he gets lucky and beats the odds by rolling a 17. The mage can't do anything but continue with his spell and pray it gets off in time to save his precious PPE reserve.

Melee Action 5: Now the Stalker gets to begin his feast and can start the PPE Drain. He'll be done by by the end of his next melee action on 6, just before the Mage's escape spell can go off. Today, he gets his fill of PPE.

So in scenario two the Stalker gets his meal, but it was far from guaranted. First he had to make his To Hit with the tacklel move, which some GM's may called Wild becasue he ran to do it, imposing a -6 to hit. Secondly he had to make the Called Shot with the knife. If he failed to get the cut in with the very first attempt, the mage would have time to finish his spell and the jig would be up. Thirdly, the Stalker needed to win the initiative roll before any of this, otherwise even if all the other rolls went his way, he'd still come up short on time and the mage would get away. And let's not forget one more thing. What if the Mage had less melee attacks per round than the Stalker. Wouldn't that mean that the second spell gets to go off on the Caster's last action, before the Stalker's 6th? If that's the case, Mr. Whitey Clean is even more so screwed, making this even more so of a Kobyashimaru than ever before!

As someone pointd out, the best way would be to use a Neural Mace on the mage since he is unlikely to have the apporopriate defenses. This is even more so true given the examples above. But not all Stalkers have such weapons. Ture, all CS Psi Stalkers have access to the the stun weapons, but Neural Maces are not listed in the Equipment section for Wild Psi Stalkers. So if they absolutely need the stunners to even have a decent chance of making a non-letahal PPE drain, then how on Earth could a Wild Stalker ever pull it off? The answer is, under the interpetation of the rules as Techno Mancer sees them, they can't. And if a character has an ability that can neve be successfully used then that is a useless power. But there should be no shuch thing as a useless power. However, if my interpetation of the non-lethal PPE drain is correct, ah! ... suddenly it is usable and a viable tool to combat the supernatural.

So which way do you guys prefer things? TM's way, where the power will rarely work, even for the most experienced Stalkers, or under Dead Boy's read on the power, where the thing is actually useful and will work as advertised?

umm. . . one problem with your senario Dead Boy.

The mage can't cast OR finish spells with the psi-stalker on top of him like that. he can't consentrat, or do the words, or gestures.

remember, tackling them mean they loose intitive and one attack. that also means any multi-round actions they are doing are disruped (AKA spellcasting)

you can take punches, kicks, laser and particle beam fire (with armor) and keep casting, but anything that makes you loose and action disrupts it.

ok....so how about this.

How do you guys who use mages PPE channeling rules handle the psi-stalker draining ability?

TechnoMancer wrote:Just curious... do you normally allow people to make called shots to hit the SDC parts of people in non environmental armor?

Wouldn't that lead to 45% of all MDC attacks being fatal?

I mean why not aim ALWAYS at the SDC parts if you have a 45% to hit them.... and inflict insta-death with any MDC weapon?

Even if you miss that 45% chance you STILL hit the MDC of the armor like normal so it's just a blanket 45% chance to kill your foe without any real loss of anything for you.

depends on the coverage of the Armor.

Jucier assassin plate only covers the chest (main body) the legs, arms and head make him horribly exposed, the only logic being the juicers enhanced speed and reflexes allow them to avoid such called shots.

other kinds that arn't full enviromental BUT have full body coverage. after all, full enviromental has to have minimum life support and radiation sheilding, and such. you can have full body coverage without it.

the Mystic Knight armor, if you look at it, isn't full enviromental with no artifical systems, but covers their entire body makeing called shots to exposed parts immpossibe as their arn't any (the semes overlap)

TechnoMancer wrote:It depends on everybodies attacks.

6 attacks = 1 attack every 2.5 second.

If the Mage has 6+ attacks... ((Fairly easy as the mage will have at least 4 at level 1!)) then it's 2 attacks.

Mages with less then 6 attacks are pretty much in trouble with 1 action to defend themselves.

I would suggest also that you reread the paired weapons ability.

It does not give you the ability to perform any two actions....

Otherwise you'd be able to...


"Ok.. I have paired weapons... so I'll... use my first action to hack this computer, and my second to make a repair roll on my friends car."

In your example I would have to say no, while trying hard not to laugh at the player who stated that! But your example is a far cry from ramming into someone while stabing them with a knife, and you know it.

As a side side note... Tackle doesn't = Captured.

If you tackle someone, and land on top of them, do you not have them at the very least temporarily captured? Not permenantly of course. Just for a moment or two until they come to thier senses and get you off of them. That is all that should be required. Other wise you may argue that sense prisoners that have been "Captured" for 19 years, and then make an escape, where never truly captured in the first place. See my point? You have to make the distinction between capturing someone at that percise moment versus capturing someone forever.

Tripple side note: The mage in your example is pretty foolish for wandering around towns with Psi-Stalkers roaming the streets with no MDC armor on... which had he had on would have made the psi-stalker unable to do squat with his sdc weapon.

Well that makes every mage that lives or visits places like Hope, from New West, or Lazlo, or New Lazlo, or any number of places that don't allow MDC armor to be worn in town, "Pretty Foolish". Hence in my previous example the psi-stalker ambushes the mage, obviously when the mage is at it's most vulnerable. DUH. That's the point of a surprise attack and an ambush.

Ok, Temporalmage, you have some interesting points, but they are pretty flawed, and here's why...

Temporalmage wrote:To TechnoMancer and Dead Boy....um..NO.

In my previous example the psi-stalkers attack is a surprise attack. Therfore it happens before initiative is even rolled, therfore is a free attack that does not count towards the psi-stalkers total for the round.

The move Sneak Attack doesn't work that way. According to the RGMG the only real benifits the Stalker will get out of it is that, assuming the Psi Stalker can use his Prowl skill successfully to get on top if his intended victim in the first place, he automatically gets the initiative and the mage can not parry or dodge the attack. It says nothing about the suprise attack being denied an attack in return.

Also please quote from the book where it states that the psi-stalkers feeding takes two actions?? The book states it takes "about 5 seconds", and "is instantaneous".

What we have here is a conflict in terms. "Instantaneous" means virtually without any time passing, and yet in the very same line the PPE Suck is quantified as an action requiring "about 5 seconds" of time. Five seconds is not instantaneous, nor can an action that happens instantaneously take five seconds to happen. So given the conflict we have to go with the more conservative estimate of 5 seconds to finish the PPE drain.

Pre-initiative:
Stalker paired strikes the mage. (They have paired as a natural ability. And you can do various combat manouvers, IE a disarm and a strike. See PG: 80 of RGMG "Warriors skilled in paired weapons can often perform two actions for every one mellee action/attack.") The stalker tackles and stabs the mage at the same time. Now the mage realizes he is in danger.

And people accuse me of being liberal with the rules. Dude, page 80 details the W.P. Paired Weapons skill, and its description damns your argument far more than it helps it. It outright says that the skill is limited to the use of one-handed melee weapons and has a short listing of the possible combination of moves it permits. And even if expanding this to hand to hand moves were allowed, (which I actually have no problem with), the limitation of each dual move being handicapped to a single hand still applies. The Body Block/Tackle move, (as described on pg. 28 of the RGMG) uses more than just one hand. It requires the total commitment of one's whole body, not a single hand! I think that omits it as an option of actions for use with the Paired Weapons skill.

Roll initiative, high roll goes first:
As I stated it's irrelevant as to who wins initiative. Stalker simply chooses to go simultaniously with the mage unless he wins initiative of course. See PG: 31 of RGMG about simultanious attacks. The Stalker then begins to feed.

You can't be serious. Let's just overlook the fact that the Tackle maneuver alone gets the Psi Stalker automatic initiative for now and focus on the flagrant abuse of this Simultaneous Attack issue. IF the Mage still had initiative and opted to cast a spell, there is no way in hell the Stalker could Simultaneous Attack that with his PPE Drain power. In fact there's no way he could simultaneous that in the first place. The SA move is a defensive maneuver against hand to hand attacks, period. It doesn't work against ranged weapons, it doesn't work against psychic attacks, and it most certainly doesn't work against a mage casting a spell that won't go off for another two melee actions. And even if it did, you can't counter with a special power like the drain, (nor a shot from ranged weapon neither). SA is all about forfeiting a defensive maneuver in Hand to Hand to deliver an Hand to Hand attack in return. All other powers and abilities are not permissible.

(Remember that while a Melee round IS 15 seconds, many of the original book archtypes only started with 3 or 4 actions at most. So 5 seconds out of 15 was equal to a single action.) Just FYI.

That's true. In the early days of Rifts characters did have only 3 to 4 melee attacks.... for first level lame-o OCCs! But what about others? Psi Stalkers get an extra attack from the get go. They can also take the Boxing skill and go up in level. That means at only 4th level Stalker would have had 5 attacks per melee. That's pushing the Melee round down into to 3 seconds per action. And for a maneuver that requires 5 seconds, that equates to 2 melee attacks. Now days they get that extra 2 melee attacks just for breathing, which is now built right into the Hand to Hand skills. That means your typical 1st level Psi Stalker will start with 5 to 6 melee actions and only get nastier from there.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:umm. . . one problem with your senario Dead Boy.

The mage can't cast OR finish spells with the psi-stalker on top of him like that. he can't concentrate, or do the words, or gestures.

remember, tackling them mean they loose intitive and one attack. that also means any multi-round actions they are doing are disruped (AKA spellcasting)

you can take punches, kicks, laser and particle beam fire (with armor) and keep casting, but anything that makes you loose and action disrupts it.

Good point. One I failed to consider. But there is another side to that. Though the Tackle will cost him a melee attack, 1) if the caster doesn't have any skills to counter this, there's still a 1 in 5 chance the mage won’t be knocked to the ground, and it only gets harder to get him down and incapable of spell casting if he takes any defensive skills like Acrobatics. That alone at 1st level given him a 1 in 3 odds of staying on his own two feet. And 2) the Body Block/Tackle maneuver uses two (2) melee actions to perform. So when you get down to it there's no guarantee the caster will be knocked to the ground, and regardless if it does or doesn't, the single attack the caster is dogged is negated by the fact that the Psi Stalker has to take his next melee attack to recover form the two-attack action he just made.

TechnoMancer wrote:Just curious... do you normally allow people to make called shots to hit the SDC parts of people in non environmental armor?

Wouldn't that lead to 45% of all MDC attacks being fatal?

I mean why not aim ALWAYS at the SDC parts if you have a 45% to hit them.... and inflict insta-death with any MDC weapon?

Even if you miss that 45% chance you STILL hit the MDC of the armor like normal so it's just a blanket 45% chance to kill your foe without any real loss of anything for you.

Check out pg. 31 in the RGMG. Kev da Man answers this question in one of his Q&A sections. In it he actually offers TWO different sets of rules for targeting exposed areas of partial armor. I just picked the one that was the better defined of the two and went with it. And in many ways, from a game mechanic and balance point of view, it does make sense by requiring exposed parts on partial armor to only be hit on a called shot. Other wise, if it could be hit just because the area is exposed, easiest way to kill Dog Boys and Practitioners of Magic would be to just lob a frag grenade at them and watch the body parts fly. Now as cool as that may be, it doesn't make for a fair and fun game.