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Interesting, of course, such a venture would virtually re-write the impliment of skills and effectively, create a new game, in it's own sense.

However, your thoughts on advancing skills beyond the % is good. Maybe something like a skill tree of sorts. I'll use your Math for example.

Normally, you have Math and the % it comes in at. Say (somehow), when you advance, you can choose to make Math become Math: Advanced instead of gaining +%/lvl?

I don't think there is a way to really make the skills more 'level rewarding' without tearing into the system as is. Some sort of happy medium would have to be obtained.

Of course, you're always going to have those favorite skills that are always picked (pick locks, intelligence, physical skills...). This may also be effected when those 'Stremlined' versions of Rifts, HU, and PFRPG are released.

Ok...I will admit right now I have not read all of the replies, I'm responding blind to them...

Mattbaby...that is (partly) where GM penaties come into play. If you are playing in my game and you try to use your Advanced Math to solve Tensor Calculus, you'll be doing it at a -50% (if not more).

MattBaby wrote:

Borast wrote:Ok...I will admit right now I have not read all of the replies, I'm responding blind to them...

Mattbaby...that is (partly) where GM penaties come into play. If you are playing in my game and you try to use your Advanced Math to solve Tensor Calculus, you'll be doing it at a -50% (if not more).

That's true, but it's still very slipshod. I think it can be improved upon.

I always used some of the skills like math as, the higher the skill, the more quickly you can do things in your head, resist stress, whatever... no system is perfect, but if you think about it, the percentile score is pretty plausable.

it's fine as it is. sure, it's impossible to list every little distinc skill there is. if you want something that isn't anywhere talk to your GM. there shouldnt' be any problen taking breeding horses and putting it to breeding anything. sure, breeding horses dont' let you, but the precentage should be roughly the same.

what I don't get is why everyone tries to make Palladium so complicated. it's a symple system, you all try to make it so much more complicated than things have to be.

and yes, palladium isn't the simplist system out there, but you're taking a fairly complex game and making it worse, and unecessarily so.

true, with advanced math, you don't learn new concepts, just become better at everything?

so?

you start off knowing all the concepts IN THEORY, but become better at implimeting them.

what in blazes is wrong with that?

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Yeah, just say that "Domestic" is a skill. Average out all the %'s then use that as the base skill. For simple tasks, no roll. If you want to do more (like at a prefessional level) roll.

This will limit you in some ways, but also, it stream lines it and if you have many people in your group to cover most areas, then it should do fine.

I think it's a very bad idea. just because you can cook dosn't mean you can dance, ect, that dosn't make a lick of sense

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think it's a very bad idea. just because you can cook dosn't mean you can dance, ect, that dosn't make a lick of sense

It's streamlined. That's all the sense that needs to be made.

DarkBrandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think it's a very bad idea. just because you can cook dosn't mean you can dance, ect, that dosn't make a lick of sense

It's streamlined. That's all the sense that needs to be made.

I think streamlining it is a very bad idea, and I'm accused me of making things too general without anything to back it up.

Matty, you say that MDC and SDC is bad because it's arbitrary and never explained, care to tell me how knowing how to dance means I can play the flute?

MattBaby wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think it's a very bad idea. just because you can cook dosn't mean you can dance, ect, that dosn't make a lick of sense

It's streamlined. That's all the sense that needs to be made.

I think streamlining it is a very bad idea, and I'm accused me of making things too general without anything to back it up.

Matty, you say that MDC and SDC is bad because it's arbitrary and never explained, care to tell me how knowing how to dance means I can play the flute?

Look, I haven't figured it out yet. Obviously "Domestic" couldn't be a skill set in and of itself. Congratulations. Now can we think of ways to make the skill system make more sense, and "it's fine as is" doesn't count.

it sounds like your leaning twords the good old Heros unlimted/ N&SS skill programs and specialties then. but more clear, like the in-depth definitions like what the hardware type characters got.

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Commo as a single skill...? Lol, NO!! Just because you can use a basic radio doesn't mean you can use one of the more advanced military ones, or act which is also a commo skill, or use surveillance equipment...

I like the curent system, for the most part. there are some good skills that are just right for broadness of skill vs skill point value.

I too advocate having skills that go above 98% for the purpose of book keeping but max out at 98% for the actual roll. with penalties applied to the skill for difficulty.

but I also find 2 things wrong with it, some skills are over priced and some are just plane silly.

another gripe is some skills progress and some are one offs. the one offs cost the same as a skill that grows with the character but it is as if the player developed up till to point where the skill manifest and then stopped.

I see 3 levels of skill, the skills we have now, specailisation and packages.
this works just about the same as established skills. packages are a group of skils that are closely related so they cost a bit less than if bought seperately. Specialisations are for skills that are the basis of a tree and add a bonus to that skill in a given field. an example: Medical doctor is the basic skill while field surgery, pathology and Juicer Tech' are but 3 specialties that give a bonus when dealing with that specific branch of Med' Tech'. this would serve to offset the penalty the MD normaly has for dealing with highly specialised areas out side of the GP view of the MD skill. the same can be done for the Mechanics and Electrics categroies as well as the domestic.

in this way, instead of some skills being skills in their own right, they are plug ins to a base skill. things like Robot electronics would be a plug in to electrical engineer, same as robot mechanics or Weapons Engineer should be a plug in to Mechanical engineer. also, if the plug in is taken after level 1, it is til a bonus not a skill in itself that is x umber of levels behind the PC current level.

physical skills drive me nuts, most of them are not skils, so many of them are one shot bonus festivals and soem should actualy be technical skills.
We all know which physical skils are good for bonuses, but one once only? did the player sudenly stop? I would ditch some like boxing and strech some out over the 15 levels like athletcs.
A note on boxing: boxing should be it's own HtH style and all HtH types shoud delivering combat AND attribute bonusright through the levels.

We could also throw in some more concepts, to take 40 and to take 70. a skill will take a basic amount of time to perform if the player takes more time he will get a bonus. take 10 times the base time and get a +40% bonus, take 20times and get +70. obviously you can not take your time in some situaltion so you must roll but if the GM decidesthen you could take it.

So in summng up. the basics of the PB % skill system are the same, we just fancy up the skill progression and expand on the difficulty penalties.

ok here is what I do

1) all skill start at 35%
(language and basic math excluded)

2) only skills that are used go up in level

3) use dictates skill bonus per level

4) Skills can go over 100%

5) Basic math of 101%= Advanced Math of 1%

6) Basic Math allows you to + - / x

7) advanced math involves anything more difficult

Advanced math of 101%=Mathematical Theory of 1%

9) a 25% penalty to Mathematical Theory = -50 to Advanced Math and -100 to basic math

TechnoMancer wrote:For example... using advanced math to figure out a missile flight path on paper, in 20 seconds... would be a VERY difficult task and would have a penalty of around 20-50% ((GM call)).

Hmmm...
This is a true story...a few years ago (back in the 70's or 80's), survivors of a WWI artillery crew were walking on a "battlefield." They completely stunned a modern artie crew that was accompanying them by pin pointing where the artillery piece that had fired the rounds that caused assorted impact craters fired from, roughed in windage, etc. They walked among something like 30-50+ craters, and did the calculations in about 10-20 seconds EACH! For the modern artie crew, they were stunned, because they were completely incapable of doing the same without computers - despite the fact that they knew ballistics, whereas the WWI boys knew ballistics without "knowing" ballsistics!

(Oh, additional note - some of the craters were days/weeks old!)

Borast wrote:

TechnoMancer wrote:For example... using advanced math to figure out a missile flight path on paper, in 20 seconds... would be a VERY difficult task and would have a penalty of around 20-50% ((GM call)).

Hmmm...
This is a true story...a few years ago (back in the 70's or 80's), survivors of a WWI artillery crew were walking on a "battlefield." They completely stunned a modern artie crew that was accompanying them by pin pointing where the artillery piece that had fired the rounds that caused assorted impact craters fired from, roughed in windage, etc. They walked among something like 30-50+ craters, and did the calculations in about 10-20 seconds EACH! For the modern artie crew, they were stunned, because they were completely incapable of doing the same without computers - despite the fact that they knew ballistics, whereas the WWI boys knew ballistics without "knowing" ballsistics!

(Oh, additional note - some of the craters were days/weeks old!)

all the science and computes in teh world can't beat human instint.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:all the science and computes in teh world can't beat human instint.

Actually, it wasn't instinct.

It was learning the hard way - if you couldn't do counter-battery fire in your head, you tended to die quick.

Borast wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:all the science and computes in teh world can't beat human instint.

Actually, it wasn't instinct.

It was learning the hard way - if you couldn't do counter-battery fire in your head, you tended to die quick.

what I said. they learn to do it so fast it's instiual.

Adam of the Old Kingdom wrote:I like the curent system, for the most part. there are some good skills that are just right for broadness of skill vs skill point value.

I too advocate having skills that go above 98% for the purpose of book keeping but max out at 98% for the actual roll. with penalties applied to the skill for difficulty.

but I also find 2 things wrong with it, some skills are over priced and some are just plane silly.

another gripe is some skills progress and some are one offs. the one offs cost the same as a skill that grows with the character but it is as if the player developed up till to point where the skill manifest and then stopped.

I see 3 levels of skill, the skills we have now, specailisation and packages.
this works just about the same as established skills. packages are a group of skils that are closely related so they cost a bit less than if bought seperately. Specialisations are for skills that are the basis of a tree and add a bonus to that skill in a given field. an example: Medical doctor is the basic skill while field surgery, pathology and Juicer Tech' are but 3 specialties that give a bonus when dealing with that specific branch of Med' Tech'. this would serve to offset the penalty the MD normaly has for dealing with highly specialised areas out side of the GP view of the MD skill. the same can be done for the Mechanics and Electrics categroies as well as the domestic.

in this way, instead of some skills being skills in their own right, they are plug ins to a base skill. things like Robot electronics would be a plug in to electrical engineer, same as robot mechanics or Weapons Engineer should be a plug in to Mechanical engineer. also, if the plug in is taken after level 1, it is til a bonus not a skill in itself that is x umber of levels behind the PC current level.

physical skills drive me nuts, most of them are not skils, so many of them are one shot bonus festivals and soem should actualy be technical skills.
We all know which physical skils are good for bonuses, but one once only? did the player sudenly stop? I would ditch some like boxing and strech some out over the 15 levels like athletcs.
A note on boxing: boxing should be it's own HtH style and all HtH types shoud delivering combat AND attribute bonusright through the levels.

We could also throw in some more concepts, to take 40 and to take 70. a skill will take a basic amount of time to perform if the player takes more time he will get a bonus. take 10 times the base time and get a +40% bonus, take 20times and get +70. obviously you can not take your time in some situaltion so you must roll but if the GM decidesthen you could take it.

So in summng up. the basics of the PB % skill system are the same, we just fancy up the skill progression and expand on the difficulty penalties.

No, no taking 40 or 70
That's one of my main gripes with d20, it takes away from the fail factor... even monkies sometimes fall out of trees.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Commo as a single skill...? Lol, NO!! Just because you can use a basic radio doesn't mean you can use one of the more advanced military ones, or act which is also a commo skill, or use surveillance equipment...

I was under the impression that they are looking for something to "streamline" skills, in a way that if one can say "Can someone with lockpick skill do xxx since its kinda like it, but not really" So, a person who has say the "rouge" skill can do it, since it includes everything in that skill set and everything in between it. True, someone who can dance, doesn't mean they can cook, but then if someone was working at one of those resteraunts and has to do that fancy knife work that is both cooking and a sort of 'dance', well then, you don't have to spend so much time pondering if you can do it. You have the 'domestic' skill, so yeah. If you want to do it at a professional level (for tips and such) then you'll have to roll.

So, my suggestion as you can see was to streamline the skills so that rather than spend time playing rather than debating on what skills to use.

DarkBrandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Commo as a single skill...? Lol, NO!! Just because you can use a basic radio doesn't mean you can use one of the more advanced military ones, or act which is also a commo skill, or use surveillance equipment...

I was under the impression that they are looking for something to "streamline" skills, in a way that if one can say "Can someone with lockpick skill do xxx since its kinda like it, but not really" So, a person who has say the "rouge" skill can do it, since it includes everything in that skill set and everything in between it. True, someone who can dance, doesn't mean they can cook, but then if someone was working at one of those resteraunts and has to do that fancy knife work that is both cooking and a sort of 'dance', well then, you don't have to spend so much time pondering if you can do it. You have the 'domestic' skill, so yeah. If you want to do it at a professional level (for tips and such) then you'll have to roll.

So, my suggestion as you can see was to streamline the skills so that rather than spend time playing rather than debating on what skills to use.

doing fancing things with a knife has nothing to do with dancing at all. that's either a juggling skill roll or personally just roll under your PP on a d20

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Commo as a single skill...? Lol, NO!! Just because you can use a basic radio doesn't mean you can use one of the more advanced military ones, or act which is also a commo skill, or use surveillance equipment...

I was under the impression that they are looking for something to "streamline" skills, in a way that if one can say "Can someone with lockpick skill do xxx since its kinda like it, but not really" So, a person who has say the "rouge" skill can do it, since it includes everything in that skill set and everything in between it. True, someone who can dance, doesn't mean they can cook, but then if someone was working at one of those resteraunts and has to do that fancy knife work that is both cooking and a sort of 'dance', well then, you don't have to spend so much time pondering if you can do it. You have the 'domestic' skill, so yeah. If you want to do it at a professional level (for tips and such) then you'll have to roll.

So, my suggestion as you can see was to streamline the skills so that rather than spend time playing rather than debating on what skills to use.

doing fancing things with a knife has nothing to do with dancing at all. that's either a juggling skill roll or personally just roll under your PP on a d20

Why do I even bother?

DarkBrandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Commo as a single skill...? Lol, NO!! Just because you can use a basic radio doesn't mean you can use one of the more advanced military ones, or act which is also a commo skill, or use surveillance equipment...

I was under the impression that they are looking for something to "streamline" skills, in a way that if one can say "Can someone with lockpick skill do xxx since its kinda like it, but not really" So, a person who has say the "rouge" skill can do it, since it includes everything in that skill set and everything in between it. True, someone who can dance, doesn't mean they can cook, but then if someone was working at one of those resteraunts and has to do that fancy knife work that is both cooking and a sort of 'dance', well then, you don't have to spend so much time pondering if you can do it. You have the 'domestic' skill, so yeah. If you want to do it at a professional level (for tips and such) then you'll have to roll.

So, my suggestion as you can see was to streamline the skills so that rather than spend time playing rather than debating on what skills to use.

doing fancing things with a knife has nothing to do with dancing at all. that's either a juggling skill roll or personally just roll under your PP on a d20

Why do I even bother?

the thing is, you point out all this little things and call them "rules conflicts" that you spend time arguing over.

I can't see anyone being silly enough to argue some of the things you and others have used as exsamples. the answer is painfully obvious.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

DarkBrandon wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

MattBaby wrote:I would do it the opposite way. Generalize the skill category. Make Communications a skill that you can specialize in and of itself. Engineering a skill you can specialize. Fieldcraft. Etc.

Commo as a single skill...? Lol, NO!! Just because you can use a basic radio doesn't mean you can use one of the more advanced military ones, or act which is also a commo skill, or use surveillance equipment...

I was under the impression that they are looking for something to "streamline" skills, in a way that if one can say "Can someone with lockpick skill do xxx since its kinda like it, but not really" So, a person who has say the "rouge" skill can do it, since it includes everything in that skill set and everything in between it. True, someone who can dance, doesn't mean they can cook, but then if someone was working at one of those resteraunts and has to do that fancy knife work that is both cooking and a sort of 'dance', well then, you don't have to spend so much time pondering if you can do it. You have the 'domestic' skill, so yeah. If you want to do it at a professional level (for tips and such) then you'll have to roll.

So, my suggestion as you can see was to streamline the skills so that rather than spend time playing rather than debating on what skills to use.

doing fancing things with a knife has nothing to do with dancing at all. that's either a juggling skill roll or personally just roll under your PP on a d20

Why do I even bother?

the thing is, you point out all this little things and call them "rules conflicts" that you spend time arguing over.

I can't see anyone being silly enough to argue some of the things you and others have used as exsamples. the answer is painfully obvious.

I point out examples at the moment that arn't real well because that's not the most important part of the suggestion. I tend to work and school and stuff so I don't put much effort into the actual 'examples'. The rule or suggestion I give is one I've probably used in the past at some time.

If the examples are what bother you so much, just forget them. They arn't what's important.

The person is a Domestic lord.

person 2 is a mechanical Genious.

The next is an espionge master.

They are the "masters" of that area. So, any skill that falls into that area is generally concidered to be an area that that person knows about.

but if you arn't a master, then your system dosn't work well. . .and you don't have to be a master in a feild to know something. . .

I'm with Matt; there need to be fewer skills. There are numerous redundant skills and skills that have negligible game impact. There doesn't need to be a dozen different mechanical skills each with it's own starting percentage and advancement rate. There doesn't even need to be separate listings for the entirety of the domestic category, I've been playing palladium games for twenty years and have yet to see any of them have any impact on the game. The setup of catch-all profession, performance, knowledge, and craft skills where players choose an appropriate specialization is a far better means of representig these skills.

There also needs to be a standardized set of situational modifiers to differentiate easy and difficult tasks.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Adam of the Old Kingdom wrote:We could also throw in some more concepts, to take 40 and to take 70. a skill will take a basic amount of time to perform if the player takes more time he will get a bonus. take 10 times the base time and get a +40% bonus, take 20times and get +70. obviously you can not take your time in some situaltion so you must roll but if the GM decidesthen you could take it.

So in summng up. the basics of the PB % skill system are the same, we just fancy up the skill progression and expand on the difficulty penalties.

No, no taking 40 or 70
That's one of my main gripes with d20, it takes away from the fail factor... even monkies sometimes fall out of trees.

it is not like take 10 or 20, it gives a bomus for taking time, but you have to be able to take time. the rules are specific. and it is not an auto success, it is a bonus, you still role and can still fail.
---------------

As for basic math and advance math, they should be seperate skills, by your reconing you could never get to astrophysics untill you got to 100% in advanced math.
they run concurrently, the stuff in advanced math does build on som eof the baic stuff but in some cases it does not.

also, because of rifts, how about a maths in practice skill under domestic. regular maths would need literacy, math in prctice also cover basic numerals, measures and currency. stuff even iliterates know.

MattBaby wrote:So I need to come up with some way to streamline the skill system and improve upon it. As you gain in level, your understanding of Basic Math should increase in such a way that you not only become better at simple things, but learn entirely new advanced concepts. As it is, levelling up has little effect on a character. Change the skill system, and suddenly gaining levels is truly important.

What I can't figure out, is how to implement it without a radical change in the Palladium game dynamic.

Hmmmm... Sounds to me like you need to go through each skill and detail it out so it's similar to the Hand to Hand skills. Where with each level of proficiency he gaines a new ability, level of understanding, or roll bonus in that skill set. It'd make for an interesting skill chapter, but it'd be a ton of work to implement. Even streamlined, we're talking about a minimum of 30 skills you'd have to write out in level progression format! My hat's off to you if you can pull it off.

MattBaby wrote:The other thing I'd like to see is more "Feat" style special abilities...

Feat style abilites! Heresy I say. How dare you even mention feats on this board. Just kidding I would not mind seeing something like that myself. Unfortunately to do that would require a new edition. As much as I would like to see that it probably won't happen.

MattBaby wrote:The other thing I'd like to see is more "Feat" style special abilities...

to avoid the stigma that over munchkin fans of d20 have done to feats, we'll go with something form another system.
edges and hinderences.

you can alot them at level 1 based on power level of campain and/or alow them any thime during PC development. but how to buy them. you could use Exp, or alocate them /X Levels and/or have them bought by balancing vs hinderences.
an edge works in some ways like many feats, giving conditional bonuses to emulate an extra special tallent.
Hinderences are the oposite, an extra special hinderance.

these edges and hinderancecs should be more than can be emulated from attributes or skills, they are something special outside the regular game mechanics.