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UncreativeNameMaker wrote:I wondering why the people of the Golden Age before the rifts made so many suits of power armor and robot vehicles, but few if any unmaned war machines. Why build a Glitter Boy with life support and space for a pilot, when you could just stick an A.I. computer in it? Robots don't need training, always obey the chain of command, and don't need to sleep or eat (power armor and robot vehicles have power sources already). Most importantly when one is destroyed no one dies.
Before anyone brings up the failer of the Skelabots, remember that they are only "simple intelligences" (using Soursebook 1 terminology). By contrast Cyberworks could already mass produce "robot intelligences" and was experimenting with "neural intelligences" by the time the rifts came.

one word: Cost

UncreativeNameMaker wrote:I wondering why the people of the Golden Age before the rifts made so many suits of power armor and robot vehicles, but few if any unmaned war machines. Why build a Glitter Boy with life support and space for a pilot, when you could just stick an A.I. computer in it? Robots don't need training, always obey the chain of command, and don't need to sleep or eat (power armor and robot vehicles have power sources already). Most importantly when one is destroyed no one dies.
Before anyone brings up the failer of the Skelabots, remember that they are only "simple intelligences" (using Soursebook 1 terminology). By contrast Cyberworks could already mass produce "robot intelligences" and was experimenting with "neural intelligences" by the time the rifts came.

Simple. That would suck to roleplay.

I tend to agree with the others on this one. I think the creators were smart enough to use forethought mixed with the general paranoia that accompanies AI and other advanced machinery. Who wants a legion of soldiers that the society they are defending doesn't trust? Or more paranoid thought What if the robots one day go terminator and wage war against all humanity? Well thats my thoughts on that anyway.

UncreativeNameMaker wrote:

Simple. That would suck to roleplay.

I know that's the real reason. I just like to see what kind of in-game explanations people come up with for these things. The fear that the machines would become self-willed and turn on them is pretty good. Except that only neural intelligences can do that. Of course a robot of any intelligence could malfunction and start shooting things at random.

OK, if you're looking for a backstory: 15 years prior to the coming of Rifts, a small scale war broke out between Country X and Country Y both of which used many robotic war machines. Something went horribly wrong, creating an international backlash against their use. By the time the cataclysm begain, all armies had ceased using them.

Another good reason is humans are better at altering plans and tactics on the fly than robots. Sure they can be programmed for all sorts of scenarios, but theres always gonna be details that don't fit in right. While a human can just decide "Alright, here's what we do", the robot would have to waste time contacting it's commanders and requesting clarifications or alternate orders.

Or as was stated earlier, they can decide on the wrong tacticle approach and gun down a convoy of nuns.

Why power armor? Because it kicks ass and looks cool at the same time! Duh!

el bobbio wrote:I think trying to come up with a plausible explanation for the lack of AI combat units in Rifts is a waste of time. The setting itself isn't particularly plausible, and any attempt at explaining logical inconsistencies after the fact is gonna look hokey and tacked on. Better to just roll with it and take it on face value.



Rallan

What do you mean? AI's cost to much to build into the robots and people didn't trust them. There you go.


Daniel Stoker

Zerebus wrote:If anything, the existance of ARCHIE and his ability to create robots means that the US had an extensive AI program at its disposal. Some of that can be seen in the CS Skelebot arsenal, but as was noted in Siege on Tolkeen, the Skelebots are dumb. Apparently, not enough technology survived the coming of Rifts for humans to figure out how to build truely smart and effective robots.

But Archie was only about 3 or 4 years old when the Cataclysm took place, and he was an experiment in advanced AI, and he's hardly a 'stable' example of that.



Daniel Stoker

It all started in WWII, whith the advent of modern tanks. These awesome weapons of war were a thousand times better armored than any G.I., with faster speed and a main gun that took out whole buildings! Why would any nation bother with infantry at all with this in mind? The answer is the same that I'll give the thread's question; Tanks and other huge machines were rendered almost helpless by being hemmed in by the cities they were fighting in! The German J-series of tank (WW II) could kill anything the allies could throw at it in the open! However, when cought in the narrow streets, these war machines could not:see their targets, manuever well,nor avoid effective allied infantry ambushes. Watch Saving Private Ryan! If Rifts Earth did not ever use Power Armor, the cities would be nightmare kill-zones of ambushes, even worse than anything seen before! The Power Armor suit allows one individual soldier the defense of near-tank grade armor, the fire-power of a tank and the all the mobility of regular infantry- Only more so (Jet-assisted leaps, 60+ MPH/90+KPH running speeds....)Why Power Armor? The Rifts tanks are good. Very well armored, but no agility to speak of. In a city fight, tanks are as good as dead. The power armor units allow ordinary G.I.'s to rule the modern battlefield with mobilty,agility (Not the same thing as mobility) defensive armor/staying power and truely lethal firepower all contained in machines! These machines also protect against radiation,bio and chemical weapons as well as being much, much easier to store and transport, due to the near man-size of the suits. In conclusion; If I were a Rift Earth soldier (any O.C.C.) I'd always opt for power armor over tanks every time, for all the reasons I've posted above!

As others have stated; No trust exists for an armed, mechanical thing that may or may not turn upon it's makers. Watch the original Robocop; The ED-209's are a prime example of why we should never trust machines to have decision-making capabilities and have the task of ever killing anyone.The day a mere A.I ,however advanced, is entrusted to attack only certain humans, but not all, is the day of a disaster in the making! The Power Armor of Rifts earth is the best way around the extremely expensive, extremely dangerous, and unreliable A.I. question/problem.

As to modern warfare/WW II and Rifts Earth; The real world American Coalition (Doh!) still has real problems with tanks in a city (or a forest for that matter) that the WW II forbears had to face. The near-immobility of a tank (or similar vehicle) in tight quarters was,is and always shall be a fatal liability of these machines. As to the Rifts Earth environment, the regular infantry is far from obsolete! The Rifts Earth infantry has unprecedented armor, firepower and overall survivability. How can I say that? 3 reasons;
1)The Rifts Earth infantry can survive a single anti-tank attack/hit! Also on the list of survivable attacks is radiation, biological, and chemical attacks because most infantry have EBA suits.
2)The Rifts Earth infantry now carries weapons which can inflict as much as 1D6(X 10)MDC per attack (Blast or Burst)!
3)The Rifts Earth infantry now includes infantry type not available in the real world:Juicers (even "mere" Base Book types are quite deadly), Borgs Power Armor pilots and Crazies. All these are much more likely to survive a conflict compared to real world (and SDC Game World) soldiers.

These are my reasons. I realize that in a world of ultra-tech, the near invicibility of near perfect hunter-killer drones is a given. It is actually a good reason not to make them. It would be just too dangerous should the drones ever go rogue, or are co-opted by an enemy. The Power Armor soldier is still imperfect; Still makes mistakes, still can turn traitor and miss more often than not:These are bad, but at least the turned soldier can be stopped by his own people. Near perfect rogue drones would cause far, far more damage/casualties than the soldier. Let's hear it for the good old G.I. !

To those who have risked/given their own lives for thier comrades, buddies or John Q. Public; Thank you! A million thanks are not enough for your sacrifices!

on that note, if we create "perfect" robotic drones to do all our fighting, whats to keep us from constantly fighting a war? no troops are lost, and drones can be replaced quickly, so its possible to fight a constant world wide war for as long as our resources last, and once those start to run out we'd just fight over those.


the main reason wars end is one side looses enough men and equipment to either be unable to hold off the enemy, or at least beleive themselves unable. this is when armies and countries surrender.

if you never loose men, wars have no brake. it would just keep escalating until neither side is able to manufacture warmachines.

and by then, you'd be back to the stone age, effectivly.

Mabey they watched "I Robot" one too many times?

You're all working on the assumption that funky combat drones would be packing some seriously brainy AI, capable of sentience and suchlike. All you really need is a fairly basic intelligence, just enough to recognise hostile targets, take 'em out, take whatever evasive action the vehicle is capable of, and coordinate tactical maneuvers with it's robot buddies. We're looking at a more sophisticated version of the Robot World Cup soccer bots, not a self-aware unit capable of questioning it's programming. Or hell, you could even run 'em remotely with human pilots sitting nice and comfy in an armored bunker a thousand miles from the combat front, just to give 'em the versatility and unpredictability of human cunning.



Rallan

UncreativeNameMaker wrote:

You're all working on the assumption that funky combat drones would be packing some seriously brainy AI, capable of sentience and suchlike. All you really need is a fairly basic intelligence, just enough to recognise hostile targets, take 'em out, take whatever evasive action the vehicle is capable of, and coordinate tactical maneuvers with it's robot buddies. We're looking at a more sophisticated version of the Robot World Cup soccer bots, not a self-aware unit capable of questioning it's programming.

That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. Archie and the like were brand new when the cataclysm hit, but the kind of robots Archie builds were not. Robots that are both capable warriors and incapable of "turning on their creator". Like the Shemarrian Warriors which are smart enough to make people think they're sentient, but still slavishly follow their programming.

That doesn't mean they were cost effective THEN though. It's a lot cheaper to make Body Armor out of that new MDC Ceramic then to design an AI that will be effective in Combat and be able to make those snap decisions and deal with situations that don't meet the 'standard' it was programmed with.



Daniel Stoker