Ships and time periods

[Veknironth]

Well, I think it would have been better if the authors had created entirely new naval technology based on magic and the knolwedge of the various cultures.

-Vek
"Naval technology is based around my belly button."

[The Immortal ME]

Crude. Vek just made me think of a word that I don't remember that means "to contimplate ones naval" ...

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

omphalic
adj.
Of or relating to the navel; umbilical.


it some times seems that historical research is not a key point in making RPGs.

When the books where writen, PF was a medievil world with magic, it has been in the more resent books that magic actively displaces technology. well it says that in Library of Betherad.

[The Immortal ME]

Nope, not that one. Starts with a K maybe ...

[Rayven]

Crude. Vek just made me think of a word that I don't remember that means "to contimplate ones naval" ...

Go to your local library/bookstore and flip through a book called The Reverse Dictionary. If they don't have that, go for one called The Descriptionary. Essentially the same book...just different title. Both books are quite usefull to people like you and I who have problems not with remembering definitions, but with remembering the word the definition belongs to. Basically, you look up the definition, and it tells you the word.

[Rayven]

Oh...TIM...

Main Entry: om·pha·lo·skep·sis
Pronunciation: "äm(p)-f&-lO-'skep-s&s
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek omphalos + skepsis examination -- more at SPY
: contemplation of one's navel as an aid to meditation; also : INERTIA 2

http://www.onelook.com/reverse-dictionary.shtml

That link is basically an online version of the book I posted about.

[Rpgpunk]

I know I tend to harp on the naval aspects of Palladium games (my long-winded criticism of CS Navy and some earlier comments about Adventures on the High Seas being harping), but has anyone noticed how many different time periods Palladium World ships come from?

Western Empire:

Dromon: as a bireme, ca. 800 BC. As the Roman dromon, ca. 100 AD
Carrack: ca. 1400 AD
Caravel: ca. 1400 AD
Galley: ca. 1200 BC
Trireme: ca. 600 BC
Ketch: ca. 1600? AD (don't recall an exact date)
Frigate: ca. 1800 AD (the drawing appears to be a slightly edited USS Constitution, missing the bow sp'rit sail)
Wolfen Dragon Ship: ca. 820 AD

So, in the Palladium World, there are ships spanning roughly 3000 years of history. Some, like the Byzantine ships, were devloped specifically because of gunpowder tactics (which don't exist on Palladium). Others, like the Trireme and Galley, were designed as ram-and-board ships. In fact, not counting the Demon Black Ships, the Western Empire has the most primitive navy other than the Land of the South Winds and the Eastern Territory, both of which are lesser powers. Timiro appears to be about a hundred years ahead of the Western Empire, given that the Ketch, Bark, and Destroyer are all more modern than the Carrack and Caravel. Byzantium is a good 200-300 years ahead of that.

In order of modernity (not power), it is as follows:
Byzantium
Timiro
Wolfen Empire (since the longships are more modern than the old vessels that seem to be a large part of the Western Navy)
Western Empire (though the Carrack and Caravel will eventually surpass the Wolfen Longship)
Eastern Territory
South Winds

Back to the topic...

Anyways, I always wondered about fire power on ships, but most had Warlocks and Wizards on board along with Catapults.

[Vidynn]

interesting point, The Dark, and something that occured to me too.

on the other hand...PB is not known for "historical" games, its just high fantasy, thats it.

cheers, Vid

[The Immortal ME]

Oh...TIM...

Main Entry: om·pha·lo·skep·sis
Pronunciation: "äm(p)-f&-lO-'skep-s&s
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek omphalos + skepsis examination -- more at SPY
: contemplation of one's navel as an aid to meditation; also : INERTIA 2

http://www.onelook.com/reverse-dictionary.shtml

That link is basically an online version of the book I posted about.

Hey good call.

I was thinking of "kakistocracy" when I said it might start with a k ... too many words of the day to keep track of ...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I know I tend to harp on the naval aspects of Palladium games (my long-winded criticism of CS Navy and some earlier comments about Adventures on the High Seas being harping), but has anyone noticed how many different time periods Palladium World ships come from?

Western Empire:

Dromon: as a bireme, ca. 800 BC. As the Roman dromon, ca. 100 AD
Carrack: ca. 1400 AD
Caravel: ca. 1400 AD
Galley: ca. 1200 BC
Trireme: ca. 600 BC
Ketch: ca. 1600? AD (don't recall an exact date)
Frigate: ca. 1800 AD (the drawing appears to be a slightly edited USS Constitution, missing the bow sp'rit sail)
Wolfen Dragon Ship: ca. 820 AD

So, in the Palladium World, there are ships spanning roughly 3000 years of history. Some, like the Byzantine ships, were devloped specifically because of gunpowder tactics (which don't exist on Palladium). Others, like the Trireme and Galley, were designed as ram-and-board ships. In fact, not counting the Demon Black Ships, the Western Empire has the most primitive navy other than the Land of the South Winds and the Eastern Territory, both of which are lesser powers. Timiro appears to be about a hundred years ahead of the Western Empire, given that the Ketch, Bark, and Destroyer are all more modern than the Carrack and Caravel. Byzantium is a good 200-300 years ahead of that.

In order of modernity (not power), it is as follows:
Byzantium
Timiro
Wolfen Empire (since the longships are more modern than the old vessels that seem to be a large part of the Western Navy)
Western Empire (though the Carrack and Caravel will eventually surpass the Wolfen Longship)
Eastern Territory
South Winds

ummmm. . . what's your point here?

so they have a wide range of ships. yea. . . got it.

they have weapon kinds from all over the place too. and different times as well.

[The Immortal ME]

He is saying that "the most power" navies in the world, use the worst ships.

[Nekira Sudacne]

He is saying that "the most power" navies in the world, use the worst ships.

do they actually give stats for these various ships?

[The Immortal ME]

Sort of.

But regardless, each successive ship design is based on better underlying technology and completely outclassed previous designes. It would be like trying to pit WW1 era tanks against modern tanks. No contest.

[Soldier of Od]

The list of modernity you presented looks fine. It's exactly the same as what I’d expect from the Palladium nations (with the possible exception of the Wolfen Empire). There are plenty of references in the books that state that Byzantium and Timiro have better ships than the Western Empire. So, I don’t see a problem with the order as it stands. Byzantium IS supposed to have the most advanced ships. It is a long established kingdom with a rich history of ship building. And Timiro also has a long seafaring history, and is supposed to have the 'most powerful' navy, only beating Byzantium because of its size.

The Western Empire has spent much of its history having to subdue a large land mass. Either from the original inhabitants or each other. Its Empire is entirely land based other than two short hops over some channels, both of which came late in its history. Naval technology simply wasn't high on the agenda; it was more important to train crack Janissary troops to quell the marauding orcs. The Triremes were good enough to transport soldiers and supplies along the coasts. This could be a reason why, when they did decide to expand their empire worldwide, they turned to magic to bolster their navy, in the form of the demon ships. And also maybe why it failed; because the black ships didn't have the back up they needed.

And the Wolfen tribes were also inward looking, with little or no interaction with the advanced human kingdoms for most of their history. Their ship building I guess would have been more based on tradition handed down through the generations than a planned and organised naval policy. The long boats, again, were good enough for their needs. They might have ‘more modern’ ships than some others, but I consider their ships to have mostly evolved separately, so they don’t represent anything the human nations may have used and superseded, or not discovered yet.

And the Land of the South Winds never really developed their navy because – well, I don’t know, but who cares? Perhaps they were just too poor.

Yeah, okay, it’s true that there might not be such a wide range of ships all in use at the same time, but it enables the writers and the GMs to use a variety of ship types that are all distinctive and easily recognisable to us laymen. If they were all from the same time, then to the uninitiated, all ships may appear to be more or less the same, with only slight differences in attributes, and would make it harder to develop an overall image for each nation’s navy, which is nice for role-playing.

Don’t get too hung up on the similarity to real Earth ships. Maybe that Byzantium Ship looks a lot like a Brigantine, and is called that in the book, but that’s just the closest translation in English from the original Northern Human Language. Perhaps those hatches on the side of the ship in the picture aren’t for cannon, but for something else. Same with the high sides. Use your imagination. I don’t imagine there are whole decks on ship with big, cannon shaped, dusty, unused spaces, with sailors standing around scratching their heads asking “Why’d they build this deck, then?” The inside of the ships could be quite different from their nearest Earth equivalents.

It doesn't really matter than a frigate loaded with cannon could beat any Western ship for two reasons: cannon don't exist on Palladium, so it never could be. And the Byzantium ships SHOULD be able to beat the Western ships; they're better. Why's that a problem?

Also, it does say in the book that the triremes are old hat, and falling out of favour, so there is at least a little reference to the primitive nature of the ships.

But, I agree, it would perhaps have been nicer if more effort had been made to design specific ships that worked with magic and Palladium in mind, rather than just dipping into Earth’s history for ideas. But then we’d still be waiting for the final edit to be approved!

[Lukterran]

I second Soldier of Od's statement.

In Palladium your dealing with magic and crude catapults/ballista--- not cannons.

The true power of a naval ship would really more on there speed, manuebablity, how well they can endure an attack, and the ships magical arsenal/manpower.

It doesn't matter really I have a fishing boat with a 12th level warlock aboard vs. Your "advanced" frigate ship. If the warlock casts hurricane the frigate is in trouble.

Magic will determine victory in naval combat much more than an advanced ship design.

[Xynar]

The Western Empire's relatively primitive fleet shows that they focus more on the magic than the technology. Byzantium has a synergy with both magic and technology. They have advanced ships with warlocks but the Western Empire has warlocks (not as many, let's say), wizards, and summoners with magical weapons for the crew as well. The Western Empire does have more Alchemists than any other nation (supposedly) and a governmental force that goes out and collects magic as well. Even if they were magically equal, the sheer number of vessels that the Western Empire can muster is greater than a simple island nation. Luckily, the Western Empire has trouble within it's own borders and paranoia to prevent a world domination attempt.

[Yisterwald]

...and the kinds of treats posed by their neighbors.

Our neighbors make a streusel coffee cake that's unbelievable....