Supernatural Strength and Weapon Damage question

[Maeldur]

Ok, after doing multiple searches with different attempts at various descriptions and word alterations, I have yet to find a sufficent answer to an intersting question/dilemma i encouterd with the Bio Juicer from the Jucier worldbook. Given that the Bio-Juicer has Supernatural str High enough to receive a H2H punch attack of 8d6 MD and has 2 claws on his forearm armor which do 2d6 MD per claw, does the juicer do 12d6 MD on the punch? Also, similar question just in general about Supernatural Str and say Rune weapons. Assuming a High enough Supernatural Str to do 1d6x10 MD and a Rune weapon that does 5d6 MD, when the hit occurs, is the Damage 1d6x10, 1d6x10 + 5d6 or just 1d6x10 MD? Also, the Rifts GM book seems to infer that when a pc or npc with a sufficent str to do more damage than the weapon he is wielding, the damage is the higher of the two plus the bonus dmg from the ps of the character. Just a curious question I've been wrestling with. Perhaps I've missed something somewhere. Lol, im only Human

Maeldur et'Kavurik

[Mack]

I believe this is answered in the Game Master's Guide, which I don't have handy at the moment.

[Svartalf]

EDIT

MDC damage from supernatural, bionics or robotic strength DOES add to that from MD melee weaponry like claws or vibroblades

[Tinker Dragoon]

Ok, after doing multiple searches with different attempts at various descriptions and word alterations, I have yet to find a sufficent answer to an intersting question/dilemma i encouterd with the Bio Juicer from the Jucier worldbook. Given that the Bio-Juicer has Supernatural str High enough to receive a H2H punch attack of 8d6 MD and has 2 claws on his forearm armor which do 2d6 MD per claw, does the juicer do 12d6 MD on the punch? Also, similar question just in general about Supernatural Str and say Rune weapons. Assuming a High enough Supernatural Str to do 1d6x10 MD and a Rune weapon that does 5d6 MD, when the hit occurs, is the Damage 1d6x10, 1d6x10 + 5d6 or just 1d6x10 MD? Also, the Rifts GM book seems to infer that when a pc or npc with a sufficent str to do more damage than the weapon he is wielding, the damage is the higher of the two plus the bonus dmg from the ps of the character. Just a curious question I've been wrestling with. Perhaps I've missed something somewhere. Lol, im only Human

Maeldur et'Kavurik

You mean the Maxi-Killer Juicer right?

Depending on which book you go by, your damage will either be A) supernatural punch damage AND weapon damage added together (with no bonuses for high P.S. considered), or B) supernatural punch damage plus P.S. damage bonus OR weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus, whichever is higher.

Rule A example: a creature with supernatural P.S. 35 and a sword that inflicts 3D6 Mega Damage can inflict 7D6 Mega Damage with the sword.

Rule B example: same creature with supernatural P.S. 35 and the same weapon will inflict 4D6+20 with the weapon because his punch damage is superior to the weapon's damage. Another character with supernatural P.S. 24 and a 3D6 Mega Damage weapon will inflict 3D6+9 Mega Damage, because the weapon's damage is superior to his own punch damage.

Note that this is the only time that P.S. damage bonuses from a high P.S. score are applied to Mega Damage melee attacks. If the creature is unarmed, damage bonuses still only apply on S.D.C. attacks.

[Maeldur]

Appreciate the responses yall, Sorry for delay in responding, work has been killer lately. Im not acutaly looking to do a combo with it, it came up whjen one of my pc's rolled up the maxi killer, and i was trying to make sense of the multiple varitions of the rules. Personly, i think ill go with the PS dmg + bonus or weapon dmg + bonus rather than adding it both together

[Borast]

Simple Answer...Depends

Complex Answer...Depends...

Given the well thought-out rules, high quality of Palladium's editing, and never publishing contradicting or erroneous material, let alone typos or badly worded entries or continuity errors...

Oh, wait...I'm sorry, this is PALLADIUM we're taling about...

Originally, you could do either your strength damage, OR your weapon damage (unless the weapon write-up said different). Then they changed it to be additive, then they modified it.

So, a dragon with a SPS enough to allow it to do 1D4x10 MDC attacks with his claws, and does only 2D6 MDC... Feeding back to AD&D rulings, that is because the musculature of the dragon has few "fast twitch" muscles, so they have the power to destroy buildings, but can not do additional damage.

If you agree with that...great, and when playing AD&D, I do. But, given the more bipedal like stance of many Palladium dragons, I don't. House Rule: Claw damage/melee weapon damage is SPS AND weapon damage plus any bonuses from training. (My Palladium Chiang-ku hatchling was doing 6D6+2D4 damage in melee while in human form, which was still less than the wolfen's 8D6+PS bonus - in a low (5) level campaign!)

NOTE: There are certain melee weapons that do flat damage only - regardless of your strength. The Necromancer in our Palladium group has one, and has a spell that creates a sword that does base damage only, no bonuses from any source! As I recall, the sword is enchanted to be a variation on a "mono-filiment" sword, so the amount of muscular force behind the blow is irrelivant, it doesn't transfer the energy, just does it's own damage!

[Svartalf]

Claw/Weapon damage + Normal Punch Damage.

It's always been like this as far as there's been a MD table for those with supernatural strength.

It's always been like this in SDC systems as well.

The new book confuses things, the old ways are best.

The old ways (as in sourcebook 1, p5, 2nd column, next to last paragraph) were very clear : the MD bonus from Power armor, bionics or robotics IS added to the MD damage from melee weapons such as vibro blades and HtH combat.

I hereby apologize for my poorly thought out and worse documented post.

[Dr. Doom III]

Only Thor ges to use his SDC damage bonus as MDC because of his magic belt. All other just at the punch damage to the weapon damage.

[Svartalf]

utterly beside the point doom, the rule I quoted is quite explicit.
If I have supernatural or robotic strength that gives me a 1D6 punch, and a vibroblade that does 2D6, then when I strike the damage is 3D6.

the SDC damage bonus was never mentioned, nor, indeed, is it used by any but Thor

[Dr. Doom III]

Doom does not remember saying he was contradicting you.
Doom was merely adding more knowledge to the plate.

[Rimmer]

Ever since i started playing Rifts many moons ago, have always played that a 1D6 punch dmg adds to the 2D6 vibro blade for a total damage of 3D6, wasent even aware of any other way to play ?

[PigLickJF]

Ever since i started playing Rifts many moons ago, have always played that a 1D6 punch dmg adds to the 2D6 vibro blade for a total damage of 3D6, wasent even aware of any other way to play ?

I don't really get it...do you also add SDC punch damage to your SDC knife stabs?

I can understand the reasoning for the different rules, but I think adding the two damages together is the wrong way to go. MDC melee weapons, whether magical, vibro, or whatever else, don't seem to really rely on much physical force to do their damage.

PigLick

[Ice Dragon]

Ever since i started playing Rifts many moons ago, have always played that a 1D6 punch dmg adds to the 2D6 vibro blade for a total damage of 3D6, wasent even aware of any other way to play ?

IMHO, you used the rules correctly. I do the same, supoernatural strenght (punch damage 3D6) adds to the rune sword damage (4D6 + 3D6 = 7D6).

[Tinker Dragoon]

Not everybody likes the RGMG though, and some prefer to use the rules that appeared in various books before it.

[PigLickJF]

I've always seen weapons as levers to amplify the strength of the weilder, so stronger means potential for more damage. Since there isn't a "bonus" on robotic or supernatural strength, it's just easier to add the base punch damage.

Like I said, I can understand the argument behind the ruling, but it still doesn't sit completely well with me. Unless the weapon is a simple pieve of MD material being wielded with such massive strength that it's able to deal out MD, though, I'm not too convinced that adding extra strength would make a big difference.

I think of MD melee weapons as analogous to a chainsaw. The vast majoirty of the work is being done by the saw's motor and chain itself. Adding more pressure may speed your cutting to a point, but it's mostly insignificant. I feel that MD melee weapons work on a similar principle- the special property of the weapon which makes it MD capable is what is doing the damaging, not the amount of pressure with which it is being applied.

Like I said, both arguments make some sense to me, but the adding damages just doesn't quite feel right. I might compromise and say that they add together, but that punch damage can never add more damage than the weapon is capable of inflicting on it's own. In other words, if I have a 5d6 MD punch and I'm using a 1d6 MD knife, my damage is only 1d6 + 1d6, not 1d6 + 5d6. If I were instead using a 3d6 MD sword, it would go up to 3d6 + 3d6, etc.

PigLick

[PigLickJF]

Now I like that. A limiting factor is a great idea. I think there is a rule for that, for supernatural strength and normal weapons, where they can break if you do too much damage, but it's in Palladium Fantasy. It should very well apply to MDC weapons in Rifts. Did that rule make it into the GM's guide?

I dont' rmember seeing it in there, but I'm not all that familiar with the GMs guide, either. We enacted a similar rule a long time ago in D&D, and it just seems to make sense.

As for the weapons breaking, that's a whole other can of worms. I did think about that and it's certainly plausible, but I don't know that I personally would want to bother to set up actual mechanics for it. Would be something good to keep in mind for those 1 rolls or other dramatic moments though.

PigLick