Forums of the Megaverse®

It seems to be the thing most needed to play rifts, and also very lacking somewhere.

I've seen that a lot of people here have a hard time imagineing things working how they do.

well, I'm curious as to why? feel free to say anything you have any problems with and why that aspect of Rifts bugs you.

me, I have no problems as is.

I just belive that EVERYTHING is possible in rifts, so nothing is really unbelivable for me.

now, I may alter some rules out of preference, but really there isn't anything about the Core Main Book for rifts that I would have a problem playing.

Phalanx wrote:Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

that's the main question I'm asking: why limit yourself like that?

Phalanx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:that's the main question I'm asking: why limit yourself like that?

I don't see it as limiting myself.

you're refusing to play with them moving at the listed speeds. that's limiting.

Phalanx wrote:I'm an aerospace engineer. That's what I do. So, when Palladium does a book set in space and tries to tell me that a high-performance figher only does Mach 10 in space... that just shows me that they didn't even do their basic homework on the setting.

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

I agree. Plus naming one of the minions of light Ramen after a japanese noodle snack is another example. Ramen geez it still bothers me to this day.

MattBaby wrote:[moderated]

why should they try for realisem? why?

what's wrong with simple?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MattBaby wrote:moderated

why should they try for realisem? why?

what's wrong with simple?

Why not try for realism?

What's wrong with complex?

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MattBaby wrote:moderated

why should they try for realisem? why?

what's wrong with simple?

Why not try for realism?

What's wrong with complex?

interfears with gameplay.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

MattBaby wrote:moderated.

why should they try for realisem? why?

what's wrong with simple?

Why not try for realism?

What's wrong with complex?

interfears with gameplay.

Not in the last 14 years that I've played Rifts it hasn't.

Simple is nice.

Realism helps.

Playability is better.

Anything else is "cake"...

If you can't suspend disbelief that orbital velocity is "0," add 4 or 5 mach numbers...

The Fifth Business wrote:Sudacne,

For me, things that makes sense are just that much more cool. For example, a weapon that obeys the laws of physics is more interesting than one that does not. I don't think taking physics into account interferes with gameplay. What if a boom gun didn't go boom? The gun would be boring. I mean, if you could ignore the fact that the projectiles travelling twice the speed of sound create a sonic boom - that is, suspend your disbelief - then the game would be less complicated and the gun would be a lot more effective. But it wouldn't be cool.

I like the fact that in order to do that much damage, the gun creates issues that have to be worked around. And I like coming up with realistic ways in using it to my advantage or circumventing it. It was great fun when my players tried to cast Globe of Silence on their GB. They figured it was like a mystic silencer. But of course, the sound comes from the bullets travelling through the air, not the gun itself, so the plan was useless! Next time, the 'walker cast it on the target. He didn't know what hit him =)

So, I like to keep things realistic. It makes my players have to work and think harder.

I disagree with most of that, but I like your answer. you gave your personal prefereance rather than attack PB

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Phalanx wrote:Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

that's the main question I'm asking: why limit yourself like that?

For those of us who nitpick Rifts the question should be: why does Palladium limit us like that? Saying "Oh well you just need suspension of disbelief" is all well and good, but why should we be happy with second best? Palladium's games in general (and Rifts in particular) could've been a helluva lot better if the writers had just done that little bit of extra work to make the setting seem plausible enough for suspension of disbelief to come naturally. I mean hell, they don't even have to try and be realistic, they could've just done a bit more effort on the style and atmosphere side of things.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:It seems to be the thing most needed to play rifts, and also very lacking somewhere.

I've seen that a lot of people here have a hard time imagineing things working how they do.

well, I'm curious as to why? feel free to say anything you have any problems with and why that aspect of Rifts bugs you.

me, I have no problems as is.

I just belive that EVERYTHING is possible in rifts, so nothing is really unbelivable for me.

now, I may alter some rules out of preference, but really there isn't anything about the Core Main Book for rifts that I would have a problem playing.

I've seen more people having problems imagining things working the way they SHOULD. Many of the magic balance rules were set in place to keep magic balanced with technology. How is it balancing for magic to take so long to cast? You cast two spells your opponent has shot you four times (that's if he's 1st level) and your likely dead unless you were smart enough to put up armor of Ithan. Oh but wait you'd have to know you were going into battle because its durration is limited (at 1st level you can only have it up for an hour). God forbid you ever get ambushed

I'll use a music band analogy.

Imagine if your group of musicians were using bits of music from a book in a creation of their own.

It'd be best if the stuff in that book didn't sound like white noise to 99% of the population.

Then again, it doesn't need to satisfy everyones musical interests. Some people like metal, some techno, some rap, etc.

Suspension of disbelief/realism is like that in RPG's. It's best that you don't look like a loon who looks like he'll believe anything, based on your gaming. But also, who cares if a few people grind their teeth over your gaming?

Noon wrote:I'll use a music band analogy.

Imagine if your group of musicians were using bits of music from a book in a creation of their own.

It'd be best if the stuff in that book didn't sound like white noise to 99% of the population.

Then again, it doesn't need to satisfy everyones musical interests. Some people like metal, some techno, some rap, etc.

Suspension of disbelief/realism is like that in RPG's. It's best that you don't look like a loon who looks like he'll believe anything, based on your gaming. But also, who cares if a few people grind their teeth over your gaming?

Why would you look like a "loon" if you only Suspend your disbelief while playing. Besides, a heck of a lot of people do it every day with out looking like "loons" it's called religion. One must suspend their disbelief to belive in something that can not be proven.

I think everyone has differing degrees to which they're willing to suspend their disbelief, and it really depends on what they do for a living and how familiar they are with certain areas.

For instance, if I remember correctly Phalanx has a strong aerospace background. Therefore he's going to have a harder time suspending his disbelief concerning things like flight dynamics of hovercycles or speeds in the vacuum of space than I would because I'm not as familiar with that area.

On the other hand, I have a hard time suspending my disbelief when it comes to certain alien races and illustrations of armor/outfits/action poses -- I'll quickly point out that someone "can't possibly bring his/her arm around like that and still be attached to its socket," or "That weapon's far too bulky for someone to grip" (frequently muttered over Vince Martin's illustrations of Naruni weaponry).

I think just about the only area in which we all are willing to grant a good amount of suspension of disbelief is the area of magic -- but that's just because there aren't very many RL techno-wizards or ley line walkers out there to gripe about how one needs more spells to make a TK machinegun or summon a lesser demon, etc.

As for the powers that be 'doing their homework' -- well, it all depends on the individual and his/her area of expertise. What Phalanx might consider 'basic knowledge' to an aerospace engineer is probably stuff I wouldn't ever know in my lifetime.

I guess the answer, as always, relies on the individual GMs and their gaming groups. If you don't think a fighter can do Mach 10 in space, either raise it or lower it to a level you think is more acceptible. If you don't think a mage should have difficulty casting in environmental body armor, then let 'em do so. If it's plausible to you that a gunslinger can have HTH: Commando, then let 'em have it (and if you don't, then don't let 'em have it). That's the whole point behind 'house rules' -- so the individual groups can feel more comfortable with their own suspensions of disbelief.

Zylo wrote:

Phalanx wrote:I'm an aerospace engineer. That's what I do. So, when Palladium does a book set in space and tries to tell me that a high-performance figher only does Mach 10 in space... that just shows me that they didn't even do their basic homework on the setting.

Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

I would have to agree here. Using a measurement that only applies to something in our atmosphere always bothered me. Why is there a limited speed in space? What's holding this craft back? Is it a governing device that has a reverse-thrust system to keep speeding to a minimum?

I think my compliant can be summed up as follows: why do people care

Not to mention half the space faring vehicles couldn't even reach escape velocity from the gravity well of our planet Earth with those speeds. I know it's all done to keep it simple, it's obvious since there are no space battle rules that even worry about speeds and maneuverability, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

maybe the fact that I don't know what earths escape velocity is helps. . .

Servo is right, though, how you look at certain things does depend on your background. I am an artist as a hobby, so I also look at much of the work in many books and complain. Things like body positioning and dimensions that don't jive, armor and equipment that are not very feasible (as in paper thin armor or joints that can't move the way they are drawn), or dozens of aliens that have human bodies but have different animal/amphibian heads. Laughable, I think. That's also why I respect Perez the most, his art rarely disappoints and makes it easier to sink into the world of Rifts.

I guess it's just that I don't see how it matters if it makes sense or not.

I also study martial arts, so I look at the simple HTH rules and shake my head. At least N&S attempted to have some detail so you could pick a style out of a line up, but it's still silly that a person that has spent 8-16 years learning a style has a +1 to strike from their training. The level based system screws it up, IMHO.

I think they settled for giving everyone low bonuses than high ones.

it would be more realistic, say, to give one +10 and another +11, but sinse it's all on sacle (all uber) it makes sense to tone it down so we have lower numbers to keep track of.

Plus I studied computers and physics in college, so when things are based on real world applications but don't even come close to doing it justice, I have a problem suspending my disbelief.

and if you DIDN'T know all that, would you care?

I have yet to learn any magic, but you know when I do, I'll come back here and complain that the Palladium system isn't quite up to doing it justice.

except that you'll find that Palladium Books has it excatly right

When you have flawed super-science at the heart of the system you're going to have people that don't like it. If you (a general "you") are offended that some people don't like it, I suggest you get used to it. We're here to discuss the game, whether that be things we like, or things we dislike.

I am used to it. I want to UNDERSTAND it.

I really think you guys would enjoy the game more if you had never learned how things really work. then you wouldn't be all worked up on how it's innaccurate.

Phalanx wrote:Ignorance is not bliss, at least not for me. It's one thing to take liberties and fudge things a bit, that is to be expected. It's another thing entirely to write material that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

it would be if you don't even know it.

for instance, I do not know what Earth's escape velocity is. therefore, I have no problem at all with palladiums space planes speed.

Phalanx wrote:Well, I do. For Palladium to develop a space setting and not even do basic research on the fundamentals of that setting strains their credibility with me. I can't just forget what I know and pretend it doesn't exist.

why should they bother? does it matter how fast it really needs to be?

they're making a game, not a phisics book.

Phalanx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:why should they bother? does it matter how fast it really needs to be?

they're making a game, not a phisics book.

I prefer games that at least try to make sense with regards to a setting.

so it just _IS_ with no decerinable reason?

Perhaps the problem lies with unknown quantities.

How exactly did all the ley lines effect the planet? Perhaps escape velocity has changed subtelly over the centuries? Not to say the earths gravity has changed, but what about the atmosphere? Who's to say that all the space debris that's circleing the globe hasn't created some magnetic force that, inthe upper atmosphere's, actually "drags" vehicles into outer space? No offense but I think perhaps it's time to look outside the box. Find reasons for the printed material to work. Or at least realize that the writers are just that...writers. That's their profesion. If they were rocket scientists then we wouldnt' have the game we all know and love so much, now would we?

Phalanx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:so it just _IS_ with no decerinable reason?

What are you asking?

I'm just a little confused at how you and others have such a terrible time ignoring what you know to enjoy the game.

even what little I DO know, I throw away when I sit down to play.

Phalanx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I'm just a little confused at how you and others have such a terrible time ignoring what you know to enjoy the game.

even what little I DO know, I throw away when I sit down to play.

Like I said, fudging is one thing... displaying absolute ignorance about a topic is another issue entirely.

and like I said, I don't see how it matters either way.

oh well.

Phalanx wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:and like I said, I don't see how it matters either way.

oh well.

They got a China expert to write the books for China. I don't think it would be that hard for Palladium to find someone who knows what he/she is talking about to write their books set in space. Steve Jackson Games certainly did with their Transhuman Space setting.

I'm not saying having somone who knows what he's talking about dosn't add to the setting.

it does, a lot. Eric Wujick is my favorite palladium author period.

on the other hand, I don't understand how not doing your homework SUBTRACTS.

Phalanx wrote:Like I said, fudging is one thing... displaying absolute ignorance about a topic is another issue entirely.

I disagree. I'm an ex-Marine. I carry a gun every day. I shoot pistols, rifles, and shotguns just about every other weekend. Sometimes more often if I can. I have failed to score anything lower than expert for over a decade. I study weapons, and read up on any new weapon the military is playing with. I attend gun shows that only those in the firearms industry can attend. It's a beloved hobby of mine. (Fortunatly for me my wife understands ) If I didn't suspend my knowlage of firearms and other weapons while playing this game system I'd already have a coronary! The ranges on the weapons are pitiful. The rules for firearms are laughable at best. The damage is not near to what is realistic....and yes I'm talking about the SDC weapons based off of real life of course.

But this is a game. Fantasy. Kinda like a cartoon for the mind. And like a cartoon the game does not fit with reality. If you want reality then modify YOUR game to YOUR ideals of reality. It's just as simple as that.

Malignor wrote:So what's your solution, Phalanx?

Complain about it (in vain) and play by the rules?
Accept it and make your own rules (as I do)?
Boycott PB products and vent on the boards?
Something else I haven't mentioned yet?

I actually enjoy making up rules and play testing them in the middle of a campaign with my group. My players also enjoy it. If it works, I keep it. If not, I modify it and try again next game session. I get player feedback and we kinda brainstorm how things should work. Then we play test it some more and change it again. Everyon gets involved, debates, cracks jokes... just like alot of things you do when hanging out with friends.

Man I wish my group was like that!! I like to play a bit fast and loose with the rules, especially when in the middle of a game. I fudge sometimes and do what I think is appropriate to the situation at that time instead of stopping the game and looking some obscure rule up. But invariably one of my players will scream at me that "You said something else six months ago when this came up then!!" Like I'm sopposed to remember last week let alone six months ago!! We do have some house rules of course, but any new changes to the rules is like pulling teeth with a rusty and broken pipe wrench.

I have to admit...one thing that has ALWAYS bothered me about (almost) all game settings in space is the laughable rules on accelleration and thrust. PB is no different in this.

If I had one (loaded series) of questions to ask the writer and contributing writers of Mutants in Orbit, starts with "Why is it that a ship in orbit or free space needs continuous thrust applied to maintain a continuous speed?" After all, there is "no" friction and therefore "no" drag in space. Conservation of momentum applies. Until I use an engine to thrust along a different vector, I am going to continue going in the direction I am travelling, and at a continuous velocity, until something acts on me to change that.
Also, why is it that if I am thrusting with X force continuously, why is my speed not (slowly) increasing to rediculous levels?
Next, why is it that missiles in space have a rediculously limited range? Logically any missile designed for use in space would have a program that would cut the engine once it reached a certain speed, then coast for millions of miles before re-igniting a few kms from the target to try to ensure a hit?
Then next, why is it that the rules in PB have such short range for ballistic and energy weapons in space? After all, if you are charging at me at a steady 1G of thrust and I fire a weapon at you from 1 billion km, a simple calculation based on your rate of thrust and orbital dynamics and the speed I can fire at you will indicate whether or not I can hit you, not some ficticious range barrier.
(And that last leads to a loaded question of why a laser beam capable of buring a hole through armour plate suddenly can not do any damage to a flesh and blood target 1cm beyond the range of the weapon? Do weapons payloads [whether energy or physical] suddenly mysteriously vanish at 1000 feet [or whatever the weapon's range is]?)

House rule, adapted from GURPS, with extra umph: For every 5% increment in (maximim) range of a weapon, apply a cumulative -1 to hit, and reduce damage by half every 25% beyond. (Reduced beam attenuation/columation, round starts tumbling, etc...)

(I also would use modified rules from TRAVELLER and/or GURPS to deal with space travel/combat...after all, if your opponent is closer than one hour's travel time, he's TOO CLOSE! )

Borast wrote:I have to admit...one thing that has ALWAYS bothered me about (almost) all game settings in space is the laughable rules on accelleration and thrust. PB is no different in this.

If I had one (loaded series) of questions to ask the writer and contributing writers of Mutants in Orbit, starts with "Why is it that a ship in orbit or free space needs continuous thrust applied to maintain a continuous speed?" After all, there is "no" friction and therefore "no" drag in space. Conservation of momentum applies. Until I use an engine to thrust along a different vector, I am going to continue going in the direction I am travelling, and at a continuous velocity, until something acts on me to change that.
Also, why is it that if I am thrusting with X force continuously, why is my speed not (slowly) increasing to rediculous levels?
Next, why is it that missiles in space have a rediculously limited range? Logically any missile designed for use in space would have a program that would cut the engine once it reached a certain speed, then coast for millions of miles before re-igniting a few kms from the target to try to ensure a hit?
Then next, why is it that the rules in PB have such short range for ballistic and energy weapons in space? After all, if you are charging at me at a steady 1G of thrust and I fire a weapon at you from 1 billion km, a simple calculation based on your rate of thrust and orbital dynamics and the speed I can fire at you will indicate whether or not I can hit you, not some ficticious range barrier.
(And that last leads to a loaded question of why a laser beam capable of buring a hole through armour plate suddenly can not do any damage to a flesh and blood target 1cm beyond the range of the weapon? Do weapons payloads [whether energy or physical] suddenly mysteriously vanish at 1000 feet [or whatever the weapon's range is]?)

House rule, adapted from GURPS, with extra umph: For every 5% increment in (maximim) range of a weapon, apply a cumulative -1 to hit, and reduce damage by half every 25% beyond. (Reduced beam attenuation/columation, round starts tumbling, etc...)

(I also would use modified rules from TRAVELLER and/or GURPS to deal with space travel/combat...after all, if your opponent is closer than one hour's travel time, he's TOO CLOSE! )

simple you guys. . .

because palladium first delevoped it's space combat system for Robotech, an anime which follow the laws of anime phsics: namely: in space, constant thrust equals constant veloscity,

some anime's are a little closer to the real space physics.


take Macross: Do You Remember Love, for example.

the veritechs in that can pull moves right out of babylon 5 (which is rather good at portraying space manuvering, even if the rest of it's space combat is wildly inaccurate.)

and they can also pull stuff that appears to be athmospheric in nature.




personally, i never bothered with trying to figure out space manuvering rules.


if you were to write a book with real physics for space combat, the first 30 pages would be an explanation of the 6 degree's of freedom, the next 50 would be an explanation of how to use them, then you'd have 60 pages of heavy math for calculating speeds, ranges, and the like.

and thats simplified. their is a reason you have to go through almost a decade at college to get a job at NASA after all.

Malignor wrote:

Phalanx wrote:My solution is that I A) act as if Mutants in Orbit doesn't exist with regards to my games and B) for Phase World games, I follow DLDC's suggestion of pretending it says "Mark" instead of "Mach."

Another thing you could do is just say that 1 "Mach" of speed in is 1 G of acceleration... or something (10G would crush alot of people, so maybe not... whatever. Work it out).

You ever check out Jovian Chronicles? I'll wager it has the sort of space movement rules you're looking for.

But... in space, you wouldn't really have to worry about Gs.
At any rate, I play and run pretty much 90% by the rules.

Zylo wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think my compliant can be summed up as follows: why do people care

I think people care because it gives them a chance to apply something they have learned. It's nice to use knowledge that cost a pretty penny even if it is in a fictional setting.

meh, well if you wanna spend your time fixing something that isn't broke then I guess it's your and phlanax's right.

I think the problem stems from trying to use real world subjects with half-assed design principles. Anyone with any knowledge with raise an eyebrow. You can't help wonder what they were thinking to put that into the game when it's obviously innaccurate.

they were thinking about making a game. so what if it isn't real.

I know why they did it, to keep it simple, but it shows ignorance of the subject. Seems to me that you, like Doom, revel in throwing ignorance of a subject back in someones face. You should be able to understand that.

I'm afraid I really don't know what your getting at.

I think they settled for giving everyone low bonuses than high ones.

it would be more realistic, say, to give one +10 and another +11, but sinse it's all on sacle (all uber) it makes sense to tone it down so we have lower numbers to keep track of.

I don't find it any more difficult to keep track of a +10 versus a +1...the math isn't that difficult. My complaint is the full martial arts that require years, sometimes a decade or more to learn, and you're bonuses aren't much better than the 6 month quicky tae kwon do style. It's probably just forced balance, but when that much time is taken, that makes little sense.

I agree, I'm just saying what they were probablly thinking.

I am used to it. I want to UNDERSTAND it.

I really think you guys would enjoy the game more if you had never learned how things really work. then you wouldn't be all worked up on how it's innaccurate.

Personally, I like learning how things work. Since I can't open a rift (yet) to the dimensions where things just work "cause" I'll choose to be less ignorant of the real world. It helps me fashion my own rules. Plus, there are girls and beer in the real world that are much more enjoyable than any game!

P. S. Phalanx, keep up the good fight!

knowing how things really work is fine.

trying to apply them to a fantasy setting when they work acceptably well as is is fixing something that isn't broken.

Nekira, why do you care so much that people care?

suicycho wrote:Nekira, why do you care so much that people care?

curioustiy. I don't try to tell them their belifs are wrong, I mearly wish to understand WHY they feel that way.

Nekira:
This isn't the first time you seem totally unable to understand why anyone would try and change the system to be more realistic. We had a similar discussion in a MDC vs SDC thread.
I agree that it is fantasy and therefore one should not expect the rules to be a real life simulation. However there is nothing wrong with wanting some realism in the game, for me it is especially annoying that guns and armour are not reflected in a realistic way.

Nobody would like it if a TW gun came out that shot flaming frogs at people. By your logic; "What's wrong with that? It's FANTASY!"

What if a new book came out and Prosek had become a pacifist environmentalsit? And the explanation was "...one morning he woke up and had a change of heart..." this would anooy everyone because it is clearly stupid! Rifts would not be a popular game if the SAMAS flew through the power of the pilots farts.

What I'm trying to point out is that to those who know a lot about a particular subject, some of the things in PB are just as stupid. I know that dosen't include you, but to Phalanx who is a rocket scientist, a PW ship is as stupid as the fart-propelled SAMAS. I know a lot about military history, so some of the things in the Rifts world I love and think are quite clever and others seem stupid beyond belief.

On the thread about PPE Channeling, we both agreed that the current rules are too prohibitive but the PPE Channeling rules were too much. Although it's fantasy, we still like to change completely fantastic things like magic to suit our personal imagination, to fix game balance but also to make it easier to ... suspend our disbelief.

Thanks, sorry about the rant...

z0b wrote:Nekira:
This isn't the first time you seem totally unable to understand why anyone would try and change the system to be more realistic. We had a similar discussion in a MDC vs SDC thread.
I agree that it is fantasy and therefore one should not expect the rules to be a real life simulation. However there is nothing wrong with wanting some realism in the game, for me it is especially annoying that guns and armour are not reflected in a realistic way.

Nobody would like it if a TW gun came out that shot flaming frogs at people. By your logic; "What's wrong with that? It's FANTASY!"

What if a new book came out and Prosek had become a pacifist environmentalsit? And the explanation was "...one morning he woke up and had a change of heart..." this would anooy everyone because it is clearly stupid! Rifts would not be a popular game if the SAMAS flew through the power of the pilots farts.

What I'm trying to point out is that to those who know a lot about a particular subject, some of the things in PB are just as stupid. I know that dosen't include you, but to Phalanx who is a rocket scientist, a PW ship is as stupid as the fart-propelled SAMAS. I know a lot about military history, so some of the things in the Rifts world I love and think are quite clever and others seem stupid beyond belief.

On the thread about PPE Channeling, we both agreed that the current rules are too prohibitive but the PPE Channeling rules were too much. Although it's fantasy, we still like to change completely fantastic things like magic to suit our personal imagination, to fix game balance but also to make it easier to ... suspend our disbelief.

Thanks, sorry about the rant...

*shrug* I guess I can't really help it. I never mean to offend anyone, but some things I really can't understand why some people are the way they are.

that's why I'm so argumentitive, I dont' give up until I can at least understand the others position.

Nekira Sudacne - belives agreeign to disagree is a last resort of desperate preportions. it means you've wasted all time spent up to that point.

Zylo wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:that's why I'm so argumentitive, I dont' give up until I can at least understand the others position.

I think it would help if you would argue for your reasoning instead of making terse remarks that are often taken as being smug and condescending. You might not mean it that way, but that doesn't mean it isn't taken that way.

It just gets old when someone explains their reasoning and the response is "it's not broken" or "WHY do you waste your time" when it's obvious why the rules don't work for them.

. . .

I'll try, I just really stink at long posts.

when I do them, they usually wind up looking like the opposite of what I'm trying to say.

but if that's what you want. . . I don't want anyone to be offended at me. sorry

Vrykolas2k wrote:But... in space, you wouldn't really have to worry about Gs.

Sure you do...unless you have Star Trek style Inertial Dampeners.

A 10G manoeuvre in space will have the same effect on a human body as it would in a jet fighter.

Plus, once we start building actual space craft, until we create said inertial dampener, acceleration will be measured in "Gs." 1G of acceleration is 10m/s/s thust pulling you against the rearward bulkhead. 6Gs of acceleration is 60m/s/s, and your 200 pound body now weighs 1200...

z0b wrote: Rifts would not be a popular game if the SAMAS flew through the power of the pilots farts.

Oh darn...you found out the secret source of thrust for all SAMAS! (why else do you think they have all that plumbing so close to your backside?)


Just as a side note...this is starting to become scarey...this topic has generated three pages of relies in less than 30 hours. Anyone else startled by that?

What I wonder is why people aren't complaining about the lack of any real spaceship combat rules, not just the lack of sense to their spaceship stats. I don't have that much of a problem with them being abtracted to the same general system as the melee and ranged combat systems, but it's a serious failing that they never take into account the entire array of pilot and pilot related skills in the game. Why is there no combat funtion for the Read Sensory Equipment skill? Shouldn't your sensor reading skill impact your initiative? What about maneuvering? How do you handle pilot skill rolls to escape from your opponent if that's what you're trying to do? The only vehicle combat rules that Palladium has ever seemed to make are the driving combat rules in HU, and even those have more than a few gaping holes.

I gave up rifts almost a year ago and haven't looked back. What drove me away was the power creep and the contradictions from book to book, let alone contradictions within the same book. As well as silly things as mentioned in this thread.
I've been playing Palladium fantasy since I quit rifts, (I played PF before rifts was released) and it sure is good to be back.

Zylo wrote:

KromeLizard wrote:What I wonder is why people aren't complaining about the lack of any real spaceship combat rules, not just the lack of sense to their spaceship stats.

I complained in a minor fashion on page 2:

Me wrote: I know it's all done to keep it simple, it's obvious since there are no space battle rules that even worry about speeds and maneuverability, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

but it didn't get anyone raving and I kinda forgot about it as well. You are very correct, though, I wish there was some frickin' details on this subject.

I think you're supposed to buy every palladium title and from Robotech, HU, and N&S extrapolate the space combat rules from the existing rule sets. When you get that done, could you post it?

Now that you mention it, a person probably could cobble together something from Robotech and HU. But that person ain't me, I'm pretty sure it'd give me an aneurysm to try.

Mephisto wrote:

KromeLizard wrote:What I wonder is why people aren't complaining about the lack of any real spaceship combat rules, not just the lack of sense to their spaceship stats. I don't have that much of a problem with them being abtracted to the same general system as the melee and ranged combat systems, but it's a serious failing that they never take into account the entire array of pilot and pilot related skills in the game. Why is there no combat funtion for the Read Sensory Equipment skill? Shouldn't your sensor reading skill impact your initiative? What about maneuvering? How do you handle pilot skill rolls to escape from your opponent if that's what you're trying to do? The only vehicle combat rules that Palladium has ever seemed to make are the driving combat rules in HU, and even those have more than a few gaping holes.

I have to say that most of this paragraph is quite brilliant, but then you are risking opening another can of worms of why skills aren't 1D20 rolls or modifiers to existing abilities (like stat checks or contested rolls).

Maybe one day, in the future much dreamed of revision to Palladium's core rules, they'll actually have rules that encompass the use of all the skills in the game.

Phalanx wrote:I'm seriously considering just dropping Rifts after we finish MattBaby's PW game and doing Jovian Chronicles and GURPS Transhuman Space from now on.

If Shadowrun plays smoothly enough I may be switching over to that for my sci-fi gaming kick.

KromeLizard wrote:

Phalanx wrote:I'm seriously considering just dropping Rifts after we finish MattBaby's PW game and doing Jovian Chronicles and GURPS Transhuman Space from now on.

If Shadowrun plays smoothly enough I may be switching over to that for my sci-fi gaming kick.

Personally, I just love that game... but I know people who just can't stand the system