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In my game this weekend the party was attacked during the night. (Ya I know, not too original. ) One of the party members has a suit of Crusader armor with a built in Naruni force field. Not wanting to take the entire time to put on armor, she asked if she could just put on the chest plate part of the armor, (presumably where the forcefield would be placed) and rely on her built in Naruni Forcefield to protect her. I was a bit stuned as this question had never came up in my game before. I didn't/don't see any logical problems with it so allowed her to utilize the forcefield, while reminding her the chest plate would provide little if any protection if the field failed. She was Ok with it and the game continued.

The question I have is would YOU allow it and why or why not?

It sounds reasonable to me, and a smart play on the player. I'd give'em a little extra EXP for playing smart.

Carl

No I wouldn't.
The FF is built into the armor and unless the entire thing was worn I would not allow it to work. That is the main drawback of having it built in. What would be the point if it wasn't there?

I would allow it assuming the following, 1. the power source for the suit was in the cheast plate 2. there were no force feild emitters in any other part of the armour 3. I was in a good mood.

Dr. Doom III wrote:No I wouldn't.
The FF is built into the armor and unless the entire thing was worn I would not allow it to work. That is the main drawback of having it built in. What would be the point if it wasn't there?

Doom wouldn't it all depend on your requests when the piece of equipment was ordered?

Nope.

I would make the character put on the chest/back plate and the helmet, and neck guard at the minimum. This is because in my games at least, EBA with a FF built in would be controlled through the small onboard computer in the armor as opposed to a switch that could be manually turned on or off.

I would also have allowed it - good call by the player .

If you, as the GM, ruled, that the force field was only in the breast plate, than it is Ok, otherwise other pices of the armor has to be put on for the force field to function.

In the discription of the Naruni Force Fields, it is stated, that you where it like a bandolier or a harness.

I could have sworn that one of the books said that either the Naruni Force Field or the Promethians OP Field was a belt. So if it is built into armor wouldn't the easiest way to do it be to place it into an armored case or physically attach it to the armor. If it's OP field and the character chose to get it built in they'd have to do something like that since NO one except Promethians can modify Phase Tech. If when your "building it into" the suit and your adding emitters shouldn't that make a stronger forcefield if it only had a belt emitter before? Not to mention wouldn't adding emitters increase power requirements? Distributing the emitters would be innefficient in either BA or EA since you'd also have to to spend time connecting the Force/OP field links. Just because it's EA doesn't mean it hard links together it could simply be a MD rubber type material seal, magnets, zipper or velcro. Who's to say...oh yeah that would be the GM in this case Temporalmage. I think he's was right on. Don't let it go to your head .

Beatleguise wrote:I see two issues here.

Naruni Forcefields are not built into Armor, they are warn with two bandoliers and use Eclips. And thus would not cause a problem.

well, they are. it says quite plainly you can have it built into EBA. that's nto default but they will do it for minimal extra cost.

Having read the responses, I would (regretfully) have to say no.

With the statement that it can be built into EBA for X extra cost, you would have to be wearing the entire suit for the field to activate. However, I would not require that the environmental seals be active. (I just rememberd that point when I read it in the appropriate reply.) The way the write-up is seems to imply that building it into the armour not only protects the emitter, but also turns it into a "skin field" that reinforces the armour, as opposed to a more or less spherical energy field.

HOWEVER, assuming the badguys didn't roll over a 12 to hit, and your player survived the encounter, I'd say she DEFINATELY deserves those 100XPs (or whatever it is) for that one!

Ice Dragon wrote:I would also have allowed it - good call by the player .

If you, as the GM, ruled, that the force field was only in the breast plate, than it is Ok, otherwise other pices of the armor has to be put on for the force field to function.

In the discription of the Naruni Force Fields, it is stated, that you where it like a bandolier or a harness.

Only the non-built in one is a bandolier or harness.

I dought that the Naruni would take the time and effort to spread the force field out through the entire suit. Time equals money and that is what the Naruni are all about. Wether it is spread out or in it's harness form the force field performs the same as far as damage capacity and coverage. So why would money grubbing materialistic capitalist like the Naruni want to waste time spreading all the emitters out through the armor using extra wiring etc? When they can just armor it and mount it to the armor or build it into the inside? The ONLY reason the Naruni may want to disperse the emitters is for an excuse to dismantle and examine a pice of armor they are interested in. Name the benefits of distributing the emitters and I'm sure more detriments can be mentioned.

In the same vein why have it built into the armor at all?
There must be some advantage beyond saving the extra few seconds to put on a harness. That certainly does not make up for the ability to ware it without your armor in an emergency.

Someone above made a good point. How do you activate it with just a breastplate? The most likely way would be with the computer pad, which is usually placed on the wrist.

Absent some canon info regarding how the force field is installed on the armor, there is no right or wrong answer. GM's call.

MorganKeyes wrote:I say that because the way the force fields are written up armor also disrupts the field unless it is integrated into the armor, not just to armor the field generator. It's just one interpretation and also a GM call to so that PC wanting to get both has to accept some limitations as well.

Certainly the way it is described in Mercenaries it can be argued that if it was as simple as placing the generator in the torso then one could just as well widen the harness to 'eXtra-Girthy' and reprogram the field to a slightly wider coverage. But it requires the armor and some work. So it's just as viable one could conclude it had to be integrated throughout the armor. However it works for your game.

As it is described in Mercenaries... I don't recall it saying anything about size restrictions and having to get it custom fit to your size. The field should be able to encompas a computer geek as easily as a sumo restler. If it is warn on the outside of the armor there should be no problem and as such if it is built into an armored compartment with just the emitters on the outside it should also be fine but that would still just need to be in the torso.

Dr. Doom III wrote:In the same vein why have it built into the armor at all?
There must be some advantage beyond saving the extra few seconds to put on a harness. That certainly does not make up for the ability to ware it without your armor in an emergency.

Someone above made a good point. How do you activate it with just a breastplate? The most likely way would be with the computer pad, which is usually placed on the wrist.

Well the reason to have it built into armor is because it states that you can NOT wear the bandolier or belt style forcefield over normal body armor. It MUST be built in to benifit from both forcefield and body armor MDC. That's straight from both Mercenary's discription, and Phase World.

(By the by...I did give bonus EP to her. I reward my players for inventive thinking. )

Writers Block wrote:Given they can be in such small spaces as bandoliers, there is no reason all operational components could not be housed in the chest piece. It would all come down to how it is activated (ie" wrist computer? better be hocked up...) and where the power source is located (and it requirements for armor connections...)

But as pointed out a bandolier doesn't work over armor.
Why would it suddenly work if it were basically glued to the armor?

Temporalmage wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:In the same vein why have it built into the armor at all?
There must be some advantage beyond saving the extra few seconds to put on a harness. That certainly does not make up for the ability to ware it without your armor in an emergency.

Someone above made a good point. How do you activate it with just a breastplate? The most likely way would be with the computer pad, which is usually placed on the wrist.

Well the reason to have it built into armor is because it states that you can NOT wear the bandolier or belt style forcefield over normal body armor. It MUST be built in to benifit from both forcefield and body armor MDC. That's straight from both Mercenary's discription, and Phase World.

(By the by...I did give bonus EP to her. I reward my players for inventive thinking. )

Ah must be some of KS's game ballance logic, eh?

Wonder if it's explained as the field is made as a skin field and basically overlaps organic material only so if your wearing armor then it trys to go through the armor in order to find an organic surface? Therefore it has to be severely modified so as to actually project a certain distance from its projection points so instead of having a skin field you now have multiple hemisphere fields all over you? So if you were able to see the field it goes from looking well like you to looking like the Michillan Man (sp? oh and tm)?

OK in that case, I'd agree with Doom, the whole suit would have to be on. The wole suit because, there would be power lines from one pice to another to power the emitters. If it's in EA then the seals would probably be carrying those said power lines and have to be sealed up. Now Rifts being Rifts the EA seals probably self seal with a magnetic lock as soon as the pices are close enought together. Depending on the tech/manufacturer of the field the pices may not have to be together and just be in close proximity if the emitters are more like relay stations each with its own low power source just to amp. and pass the field on from relay to relay?

I didn't remember reading that about the fields not working with armor. Has Rifts ever given the times to get into armor?

Writers Block wrote:I've always ignored that "not work over armor" rule because it made no sense, so I have to admit I forgot about it. The relation I was trying to make though is that the tech is very small. It states it can be built into armor. There is no reason to assume the built in tech is somehow larger than the bandoliers, so it could be in just the chest plate.

As for why it doesn't work, I write it off to a Naruni marketting scheme to get more adventurers to buy covert, built in, forcefields. Maybe they tweak them not to work over armor because they want to phase out the bandolier model from next quarter's distribution catalogue.

Or like I said earlier it's always a great reason for them to be able to take apart a pice of armor their interested in.

Beatleguise wrote:If you read up on it, the only reason its states that force fields can not work over armor, is strictly for balancing purposes.

The other GM and myself in our gaming group both agreed this was a very silly reason, as its really easy to adjust encounters for characters using both.

Infact it makes it more fun, as we can use tougher NPCs for general encounters, which provides for a lot more variety.

By ignoring the rule, and simply adjusting to make up for it, it also allows players to have a shield, and use it with more than one suit of armor. Which is handy for people who like different suits depending on the type of mission they will be playing.

I'm not saying your wrong or their right. I was just saying according to what the book says, or at least what they said it says since I don't remember that part, the characters would have to wear the whole armor. The explanation was for story line since thats always better than just saying it's for game balance. If Palladium had done the story line reason and not the excuse, of game balance, I dought as many people would have a problem with it. My problem was I was argueing beleiving that the books said you could. Not that the books make a difference they are just a guide line the GM is the rule.

I can vaguely remember from somewhere that a knight used to take about 20 minutes "dressing" with the help of a squire. (More if he was to wear jousting plate.)

Borast wrote:I can vaguely remember from somewhere that a knight used to take about 20 minutes "dressing" with the help of a squire. (More if he was to wear jousting plate.)

yea, back when the armor weighed half a ton.

remember, most armor only weight about 8-15 lbs TOTAL.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Or like I said earlier it's always a great reason for them to be able to take apart a pice of armor their interested in.

Except the vast majority would be installed in common armor.

Borast wrote:I can vaguely remember from somewhere that a knight used to take about 20 minutes "dressing" with the help of a squire. (More if he was to wear jousting plate.)

I belive that is either from PFRPG or the Ancient arms and armor book.

I'd think that the Rifts gear would take less time it's not as intricate with as many seperate parts due to superior and more flexible materials.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Or like I said earlier it's always a great reason for them to be able to take apart a pice of armor their interested in.

Except the vast majority would be installed in common armor.

So your saying that oh say someone with a GB wouldn't want extra protection if they could afford it?

Zer0 Kay wrote:So your saying that oh say someone with a GB wouldn't want extra protection if they could afford it?

No I'm saying that they would install it in about a billion Silver Hawks before they ever see a Glitterboy.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Borast wrote:I can vaguely remember from somewhere that a knight used to take about 20 minutes "dressing" with the help of a squire. (More if he was to wear jousting plate.)

yea, back when the armor weighed half a ton.

remember, most armor only weight about 8-15 lbs TOTAL.

Your very condescending I don't like that. Be nice or I'll hire a tall buxom blond to spank you......It's name is Bill.

One reason for the forcefield belt not working over armor because the Naruni charges 30,000 to 40,000 credits to install it. Also reading the discription of the forcefields it seems that it "reacts" to fast-moving objects. Perhaps the field misunderstands armor that is worn under it as a fast moving object when the person wearing it tries to move. Such as swinging thier arms. Just a thought.

The time to get into armor is listed on page 41 of the RGMG. It states that man at arms take 1D4+4 melee rounds, all others need 1D4+4 minutes to suit up.
This is why I let her put on the chest plate and activate the force field. Otherwise one dead elf!

Temporalmage wrote:One reason for the forcefield belt not working over armor because the Naruni charges 30,000 to 40,000 credits to install it. Also reading the discription of the forcefields it seems that it "reacts" to fast-moving objects. Perhaps the field misunderstands armor that is worn under it as a fast moving object when the person wearing it tries to move. Such as swinging thier arms. Just a thought.

The time to get into armor is listed on page 41 of the RGMG. It states that man at arms take 1D4+4 melee rounds, all others need 1D4+4 minutes to suit up.
This is why I let her put on the chest plate and activate the force field. Otherwise one dead elf!

Uh so why not the weapons under it or the clothes?

Thanks for the info again.

I still would have given her xp even if the forcefield didn't work and she still would have been protected at lease as much as any modern day cop or military personel with a ballistic jacket on.

I would probably go with Zero on this one, in that the FF would only be projected around the peices of armour that being worn and are connected to the chest plate(Presumably where the power pack for it is) So if it's a breast plate and the entire arm, the that's the only place that the FF is in effect

Esckey wrote:I would probably go with Zero on this one, in that the FF would only be projected around the peices of armour that being worn and are connected to the chest plate(Presumably where the power pack for it is) So if it's a breast plate and the entire arm, the that's the only place that the FF is in effect

I kinda seen it differant, but at least your way covers the "main body" so they'd still be fine except for called shots and explosives.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:So your saying that oh say someone with a GB wouldn't want extra protection if they could afford it?

No I'm saying that they would install it in about a billion Silver Hawks before they ever see a Glitterboy.

good point. I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to use it as an excuse since they are also about obtaining new tech. They may have made it up with that in mind. All the "common" armor didn't always used to be common. They probably used the excuse to learn about those at the time.

Temporalmage wrote:

Esckey wrote:I would probably go with Zero on this one, in that the FF would only be projected around the peices of armour that being worn and are connected to the chest plate(Presumably where the power pack for it is) So if it's a breast plate and the entire arm, the that's the only place that the FF is in effect

I kinda seen it differant, but at least your way covers the "main body" so they'd still be fine except for called shots and explosives.

E X P L O S I V E S hmm I like those I always threaten to blow up the PAR when it is acting up...hmm thinks fondly of the PAR. . . being blown up by c4