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Shreds wrote:Other then one sitting of Star Wars with people I didnt like, and I hardly remember now... I am completely new to pen and paper.

My friend introduced Rifts to me, and I read the books, learned the system (best I could at the moment), and decided I would like the combat system.
So a few friends and I created characters and ran through a quick hack&slash scenerio just to get us in shape. We faced goons in plasticman type armor.
The issue, everything was MegaDamage and it made my armor feel like my life source. My character felt helpless since 1 point over the MD limit of my armor would obliterate me.
Is there something we did wrong? or does the game always play like this, where its all MD fights? why be afraid of 8 guys with sub machine guns when you have 10 point MD armor on?

If this is how it is, can I be suggested towards a different game, similar setting? If we are doing it wrong, and there is a way to involve SDC values, please let me know.

Thanks

first off, welcome to the boards.

secondly, those same concerns have been in effect sinse we ALL started playing.

my favorite solution is, sinse all towns with the tech will know how dangourus it is, they have armed guards at the gates that take and store ALL MD weapons and armor when they go in. inside the town/city, you can have all kinds of SDC vs SDC fun.

Nekira here brings up an awesome point, but there are some other things to factor in:

1)Most homes found in Rifts are NOT MDC structures. In fact they are log cabins, brick and mortar, cement, etc. Most of your regular citizens are living out of what once was. Only in the big cities will you find an abundance of MDC buildings. Meaning that sentury at the front of the town Nekira spoke about now has a DARN good reason to monitor that heavy ordinance.

2)Ever try to hunt for food with a Particle Beam Cannon? SDC weapons are still a nessesary tool for most of the average citizens of Rifts Earth. Because if you need military grade firepower to hunt your food, you're definately going about it the wrong way.

3)Bandits! Darn tootin I said bandits. Perhaps the greatest threat to your existance might not be that Great Horned Dragon or other world Deity. The guy who just stole your name brand 1d6x10 MDC phase plasma rifle from the Terminator's collection would probably earn that distinction.

4)Attention. People who like having that uber damage ratio tend to be the type who drawn undue attention to themselves. They -like- throwing out 3d6 x10 worth of damage to an area and watching the ensuing carnage. This also might get them barred from some places as people begin to label them a maverick or a loose cannon. And depending on how they handle it, possibly even homicidal. This of course keys in with #1: collateral damage. People stop caring who was right and wrong when Mr Hero blasts a hole through your home and into your neighbors. -That- is the wrong kind of attention

Sometimes logically role playing something out can solve a lot of problems with illogical characters/players.

and re: MDC vs players,
the GM has the descression of obliterating body parts and rendering the PC in a coma, with the usual save vs Coma drama.

Cybernetics and Bionics are a just about as common as anything military grade. So many PCs can be secure in the knowledge that they have some small fighting chance if they are hit to many times with MDC weapons.

also, if you don't have initiative, the 1st think you should do is dive/dodge for cover. you ain't Rambo.

Well games like Rifts...Torg, GURPS (kinda on both). Stick with it though. Rifts isn't all of the Palladium Megaverse, you could alway be Rifted to an SDC world (BtS, TMNT/After the Bomb, N&SS, PFRPG, Original Mechanoids, HU) where for whatever reason the Rift had the effect of either making your equipment useless or SDC. Everything can be handled and made fun by an imaginative GM.

you were playing it right. the thing you have to know about Rifts is that your success in combat is directly related to how much money you have.
so get some cash, buy the biggest guns you can get, buy the toughest armor you can afford, and blast everything that moves!

Don;t worry, ya did stuph right... and there are some people who just shouldn't play Rifts because they gripe too much. Staying alive is the FUN aspect of the game. Pick your battles when you can, and SALVAGE afterwards. Be alright.

One thing to keep in mind...take 100 M-16s armed with armour piercing rounds, point at one "volunteer" in 1MDC body armour.

All 100 M-16s are fired simultaneously, doing an average of 25 SDC damage. That makes 2500 SDC total damge.

The armour STILL has 1 MDC (although the guy in it is in bad shape from all that ordinance striking him and rolling him like a soccer ball).

SDC weapons can NOT harm MDC structures.

If you want a real world example, take a .50 machinegun and point it at the side of a battleship. When you have to stop because the barrel has melted, you will have done little more than scratch the paint (and killed the odd sailor looking over the side wondering at the noise)...

Zylo wrote:

Borast wrote:If you want a real world example, take a .50 machinegun and point it at the side of a battleship. When you have to stop because the barrel has melted, you will have done little more than scratch the paint (and killed the odd sailor looking over the side wondering at the noise)...

Bad example. There are no MDC structures in our time, at least none detailed by the books, such as modern tanks being SDC. Even though a .50 woudln't do jack to the side of a battleship IRL, in game it would tear it apart because it's an SDC structure. Eventually, you could sink that battleship.

there is A. armor rating. if you don't roll over the ships AR you do no damage.

B. the fiat rule clearly stating that, even though it is all SDC, some objects may not be damaged without the propor tools.

a machinegun is not a proper tool to sink a battleship.

Actually...I wasn't implying that a modern battleship was an MDC structure.

Besides, modern weapons are designed to specific requirements. If you actually do some reseach, you'll find alot of weapons designed to penetrate "X" inches of steel/armour

Another real world example...a friend's father was a WWII artie gunner, and his crew had a 105 set up.
A Tiger came through the bush, and they saw it...it did NOT see them.
They depressed the gun until they could make a flat trajectory shot at it , loaded, and pulled the "trigger."
When the smoke cleared, the Tiger was NOT moving...however, the front armour had a circular cherry glow from where the shell had impacted. The turret was traversing to bring the barrel to bear (it had been pointing to the rear while they were travelling through the bush)
They abandoned the gun and headed for the hills.

Now, had they been able to fire a couple more shells at the Tiger (and hit the exact same spot each time), they MIGHT have been able to kill it before it killed them!

Originally posted by Shreds
Other then one sitting of Star Wars with people I didnt like, and I hardly remember now... I am completely new to pen and paper.

My friend introduced Rifts to me, and I read the books, learned the system (best I could at the moment), and decided I would like the combat system.
So a few friends and I created characters and ran through a quick hack&slash scenerio just to get us in shape.

This is your main problem. Most characters in Rifts (at least in the main book) aren't condusive to "hack & slash". Combat in Rifts tends to be deadly and expensive. There are no Healing Potions or quick fixes for your armor, so unless you go back to town after every battle you can be whittled down quickly by a series of opponents.... there isn't any quick healing and resting between battles.

We faced goons in plasticman type armor.
The issue, everything was MegaDamage and it made my armor feel like my life source.

It is.

My character felt helpless since 1 point over the MD limit of my armor would obliterate me.
Is there something we did wrong?

Not particularly. I personally like the fact that you have to think things out a bit more in Rifts or you get toasted. Combat in games should be deadly, just like in real life.

or does the game always play like this, where its all MD fights?

You could run an entire campaign on Rifts Earth, without using or nerfing MDC.
-Set things in cities where MDC gear isn't allowed.
-Have a party of vagabonds. Put them up against other vagabonds or SDC monsters.
-Strip the party of their MDC gear (or simply don't allow them to start with any) and put them up against SDC foes.
-Rather than a large scale, deadly, and expensive pitched battle, some bandits or mercenary groups might agree to (or suggest) settling things with an SDC duel between champions.

why be afraid of 8 guys with sub machine guns when you have 10 point MD armor on?

No real reason to be afraid.
Unless you're unarmed, then they can gang-pile you and work your armor off of you.

If this is how it is, can I be suggested towards a different game, similar setting?

GURPs. Shadowrun.
Unfortunately, no other setting I have found is as fun as Rifts.. at least not in the same ways.

If we are doing it wrong, and there is a way to involve SDC values, please let me know.

As I've said, just don't run MDC battles. Piece of cake.
Also, you could do as has been suggested and nerf MDC down to a 1:10 ratio instead of a 1:100 ratio. Or work out SDC stats for everything and discard MDC altogether (Conversion Book 1 had some general rules for this).
Alternatively, if you are simply worried about fun for the PCs, try playing characters who are MDC instead of SDC... Bots, Borgs, Dragons, Super Heroes (from Heroes Unlimited), Demons, and other supernatural creatures. Many of these have bio-regeneration powers that allow for healing between battles.

Thanks

No prob.
Good luck.

..My armor is my life source. That blows. Boring as well.

..In my games (yawn, here he goes again with the house rules), 1MD= 5SDC, MD has an AR of 18 against SDC weapons, and every 10 points of impact damage inflicted on your armor (MD or SDC) does one SDC to you.

..AR is a number your strike roll has to beat in order to do damage. An AK-47 becomes the cool useful weapon it actually is., and people can keep going when their armor has been shredded.

-Mike >8]

MADMANMIKE wrote:..My armor is my life source. That blows. Boring as well.

Depends on your preferences.
I tend to find games where regular humans can regularly get shot up in gunfights, yet still survive with no after effects, to be unbelievable to the point of being boring.

First off welcome to the boards. Killer Cyborg covered most of the points I would have made. 10 to 1 seems the way to go. However the GM has the final call and to add a little drama the players who armor is reduced to zero or below could loose and arm or a spleen. Something that cybernetics could fix.

Don't forget about cover and terrain in general. I like to describe the setting to my players and they'll use everything they can to gain an edge. Even if the cover isn't M.D.C. there still might be penalties to strike.

Rifts also doesn't have to be just about guns. I'll often get the players in melee combat be it with magic weapons or vibro blades. That can be just as much fun.

You might also want to experiment and try new O.C.C.'s. Magic or Psychic can be fun. There are also M.D.C. beings to play like Tattoo Warriors, Undead Slayers, Demi-gods, Dragon Hatchlings, the list goes on.

Have fun!

Carl

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MADMANMIKE wrote:..My armor is my life source. That blows. Boring as well.

Depends on your preferences.
I tend to find games where regular humans can regularly get shot up in gunfights, yet still survive with no after effects, to be unbelievable to the point of being boring.

..What games allow that? There is blood loss, recovery time, the optional damage rules, which are only optional because they complicate things for beginners...

..The example explaining the nature of SDC counteracts your arguement. The Player who wrote Palladium talking about how cool Heroes Unlimited was because with such a high SDC pool, his crazy hero would shoot himself in the head with a .45 to intimidate his foes. Not going to happen, duh. Point blank = dead.

-Mike >8]

Originally posted by MADMANMIKE

..The example explaining the nature of SDC counteracts your arguement. The Player who wrote Palladium talking about how cool Heroes Unlimited was because with such a high SDC pool, his crazy hero would shoot himself in the head with a .45 to intimidate his foes. Not going to happen, duh. Point blank = dead.

-Mike >8]

That example was discussing primarily point blank shots and lying on top of grenades.
It does not discuss the fact that in Rifts you can get shot in the chest by a solid slug from a shotgun (average damage of 17) and stay in the fight more often than not.
The average man-at-arms has 25 SDC and 14+ hit points, not even including bonuses from physical skills.
Meaning that the average merc can take 2 average shotgun blasts to the chest and still be standing... as long as the gun isn't fired from Point Blank range... like from 20' away, for example.
Your average Adventurer is still going to have around 14 SDC and 13-14 hp, not including bonuses from physical skills. Meaning that they'll still be standing after a single blast as well.

But none of that was really my point.

My point is that it is fully possible to be shot in the leg with a .22 and walk with a limp for the rest of your life.
Any time you're shot or stabbed at all, there is going to be scarring... both inside and out... that might be permanent.

Games where characters get into constant combat but suffer no real consequences other than...
"Boy, I'll have to wait a a few days before I'm fully healed from that shotgun blast. Luckily I'll be fully mobile, with no problems moving around or anything."

...leave me a bit unable to suspend my disbelief.

Games in which magical healing are commonplace help a bit because I can buy the concept that magic wouldn't leave and scars or anything. You're magically as good as new once you've been healed up.
But games where magical healing isn't common have something of a problem in my mind.
Rifts is one of these games (unless you have bio-regeneration).

I can suspend my disbelief a long way...
I can buy that for some reason MDC armor offers complete protection until it is destroyed.
I can buy that the armor somehow keeps the wearer from being liquified from the sheer force of a railgun blast.

But I can't buy the idea that normal humans can get regularly shot up with lasers or bullets, or slashed by knives, swords, and claws, and essentially walk it off.

Let me ask you this, MadmanMike...
If you were about to walk into a real firefight, would you rather have bulletproof armor or would you find that too boring and prefer to take the hits yourself?