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Groth One-Eye wrote:So I recently began playing in a new Rifts game this past weekend. Naturally my character started off with fairly standard equipment - a Vibro Sword and a Light Rail Gun. So we got our introductions taken care of and started on the game. Fairly quickly (just by talking to each other) we found out that one player had a Deathbringer Sword.

To be completely honest I had never even heard of such a thing until I started reading these boards. I checked the Game Master's Guide and Book of Magic for it, but didn't find anything on such a weapon. If anyone can tell me what sourcebook I can find it in I'd appreciate it. The trouble I've had finding out about this thing though leads me to believe it's probably not... conventional issue for starting characters. I could be wrong though, what do you think?

The Deathbringer sword is a TW sword, from Federation of Magic. I believe it is in the Book of Magic as well... Lemme go check.. Yes, page 317, right above the Demon Claws. It's a fun sword, and when you use it in combination with a Draining Blade it makes using a Mystic Knight very fun.

*GASP*....NO I don't think it should be issued to a 1st level character (unless they're a Godling or dragon hatchling with a good reasoning)

BTW, dragon hatchling haveno starting equipment - only if the GM allows/hands out something.

It really depends on the game setting, powerlevel and character background. My brother wanted his CK to start with a powerful run sword - no problem, he good "Mountain Crusher" and indepentend rune weapon (can not be bound, and talks all the time ). After a few campains the CK got frustrated and through the mighty weapon into a sea .

Dragons are not supposed to have starting equipment. This generally forces them to RP.

G wrote:Dragons are not supposed to have starting equipment. This generally forces them to RP.

Or kill people and take their stuff.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Death Bringer usually a huge two handed weapon of pole arm? If that is the case, then how can you use it in conjuntion with a draining blade? I may have misinterpreted the statement, and you may not have intended them to be used as paired weapons. Is it possible to have a death bringer as a one handed weapon?

The Galactus Kid wrote:If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Death Bringer usually a huge two handed weapon of pole arm? If that is the case, then how can you use it in conjuntion with a draining blade? I may have misinterpreted the statement, and you may not have intended them to be used as paired weapons. Is it possible to have a death bringer as a one handed weapon?

Superhuman strength would allow a character, namely my Mystic Knight, to weild the blade one-handed. Along with a much lighter, and easier to weild draining blade in the off hand.

Groth One-Eye wrote: Fairly quickly (just by talking to each other) we found out that one player had a Deathbringer Sword.

Hmm. The GM must be getting sexual favors from that player.

I'd allow a 1st level character to start with a Deathbringer Sword under these conditions:

-They choose an OCC or RCC that lists "TW Weapon of choice" or "magic sword of choice" under their starting equipment.
-They are making a first level character that is joining up with a higher level campaign where the other characters already have some spiffy loot.
In this case, I usually let the newbie choose between making a first level character with extra equipment or a higher level character with standard gear.


I would allow a first level hatchling dragon to start out with a Deathbringer sword under the following conditions:

-Hell freezes over and Satan ice-skates to work.

I have no problems letting them start with it.

I mean, come on, it's powerful, not THAT powerful.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I have no problems letting them start with it.

I mean, come on, it's powerful, not THAT powerful.

Let's look at it for a minute:

-It costs 11-14 million credits.
-It does 1d6x10*
-It can make the weilder Invulnerable for 8 melee rounds for 50 PPE... and not just like the spell Invulnerability, more like the major super power from HU; you are impervious to all attacks except for magic and psionics. For 8 melees! We rarely see a battle go on for a whole 8 melees.
-It can shoot a particle beam that does 1d6x10+5 MD... more powerful than most particle beam rifles.
-Spinning Blades
-Ensorcel.

Let's compare it with the standard equipment for a hatchling dragon (nothing).

Which is more powerful, a Deathbringer sword or nothing?
Is it even a close race?
Or would you say that just maybe a Deathbringer sword is a heck or a lot more powerful than nothing?



*Edit:
Since people seem to have a skewed perspective on weapon damage, let's compare this to a few other swords.
Vibro-swords do 2d6 md; the Deathbringer is 5x more powerful just in the damage it dishes out.
Flaming Swords do 4d6; the Deathbringer is 60% more powerful.
A mind melter's Psi-sword does significantly less damage, and they aren't allowed until 3rd level!

Now let's pause a second to look at Rune Swords...
-A Lesser rune weapon can cost as much as 16 million credits, sometimes more. They typically do 4d6 MD.
-A Greater Rune Weapon also does around 4d6 MD, but can cast a few spells and or have a few psionic powers.
These cost 20-80 million credits.
-Greatest Rune Weapons again do around 4d6 MD, but they have a few more powers... they are also usually cursed.
these cost 6d4x10 million credits, possibly 2-3 times that.
-A Sword of Atlantis never costs less than 500 million credits.
It can do 1d6x10 MD on attacks, same as the Deathbringer, double damage to vampires and alien intelligences.

Most GMs would balk at giving ANY rune weapon to a 1st level character of any class. Rune Swords may be more versatile overall, if you get a good one with a good combo of powers/spells, but none of them have any power as powerful as the Invulnerability granted by the Deathbringer, and only the Greatest Rune Weapons have ranges attacks capable of dishing out as much damage as the particle beam from the Deathbringer.
Not to mention that runeswords have downsides; you have to argue with the personality of the sword and they are very often cursed.
So when you say that a Deathbringer "isn't that powerful", I have no idea what you are comparing it to.
It is vastly superior to any other sword out there with the possible exception of Greatest Rune Weapons (and the Battle Fury Blade, which is almost as munched out as the Deathbringer).

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I have no problems letting them start with it.

I mean, come on, it's powerful, not THAT powerful.

Let's look at it for a minute:

-It costs 11-14 million credits.
-It does 1d6x10
-It can make the weilder Invulnerable for 8 melee rounds for 50 PPE... and not just like the spell Invulnerability, more like the major super power from HU; you are impervious to all attacks except for magic and psionics. For 8 melees! We rarely see a battle go on for a whole 8 melees.
-It can shoot a particle beam that does 1d6x10+5 MD... more powerful than most particle beam rifles.
-Spinning Blades
-Ensorcel.

Let's compare it with the standard equipment for a hatchling dragon (nothing).

Which is more powerful, a Deathbringer sword or nothing?
Is it even a close race?
Or would you say that just maybe a Deathbringer sword is a heck or a lot more powerful than nothing?

whooops, looking at it was just what I needed to do


I got that confused with the Battle Fury Blade. sorry, statement retracted.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I have no problems letting them start with it.

I mean, come on, it's powerful, not THAT powerful.

Let's look at it for a minute:

-It costs 11-14 million credits.
-It does 1d6x10
-It can make the weilder Invulnerable for 8 melee rounds for 50 PPE... and not just like the spell Invulnerability, more like the major super power from HU; you are impervious to all attacks except for magic and psionics. For 8 melees! We rarely see a battle go on for a whole 8 melees.
-It can shoot a particle beam that does 1d6x10+5 MD... more powerful than most particle beam rifles.
-Spinning Blades
-Ensorcel.

Let's compare it with the standard equipment for a hatchling dragon (nothing).

Which is more powerful, a Deathbringer sword or nothing?
Is it even a close race?
Or would you say that just maybe a Deathbringer sword is a heck or a lot more powerful than nothing?

whooops, looking at it was just what I needed to do


I got that confused with the Battle Fury Blade. sorry, statement retracted.

Never mind, then.

The Formless One wrote:If the GM is using Dragons & Gods (which he should be, or Baby Jesus will cry), if I remember correctly, he can get WP's.

That aside, what're you playing RIFTS for if not to maul things?

Seriously guys. The game's about as deep as Exalted. It's about pulling out the dice, hopping in a robot or picking up some Deathblade 10000 and hacking the hell outta anyone who gives you lip.

the game is as deep as the GM and players make it.

the game is as deep as it's made.

apparently, you're games arn't deep, but that's just you. I've done little but maul things, and Rifts too.

it's all how it's made.

Speaking of Poisoning the well, how much experience would I get for that if the whole town dies?

Septicrazor wrote:My wife was at least cool with gaming before we married, that would have been a deal breaker otherwise...hehe.

Same here brother!

my wife gets shot at just as much as the rest of the party, but believe me its hard to do sometimes.

Not me! Sometimes it's a wonder I dont' have to sleep on the couch. As often as my wifes characters get shot up....or die. Good thing we can keep our fun time seperated from our "FUN" time!!

The only "people" I know of who could start with a Deathbringer would be a Godling, Mystic Knight, or Battle Magus... Dragon Hatchlings just get themselves to start with.
A Deathbringer isn't ALWAYS a two-handed weopon, just "usually", so it could be a rapier if that's what the player likes.

The Formless One wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:the game is as deep as the GM and players make it.

the game is as deep as it's made.

apparently, you're games arn't deep, but that's just you. I've done little but maul things, and Rifts too.

it's all how it's made.

Sorry Nekira, I hate to burst your bubble bud, but you're totally off the mark. Why?

Three little words: "Mega-Damage Capacity." - Something that originally appeared in Robotech, and worked for it's time but shouldn't have been used for Rifts if what you say is to be true.

Rifts has guns, 4-6 inch long pistols, that can go up to a 40 ft tall mecha unit, and in the hands of a Juicers with a luck-streak on his rolls, put some serious hurt on that mecha.

Saying that "Games are as deep as you make them" as an argument that Rifts isn't a total smash-fest game can't hold up.

Complaining that your Rifts game is a smash-fest is like complaining that your Unisystem fantasy game isn't gritty, dark and ultra death-filled. Sure, in Unisystem Lite, you can rip out the Drama Points, maybe lower character creation points, to get that gritty effect but ultimately you're still left with an original game (B:tVS or Angel) that was intended for cinematic play.

This is Rifts. When you play it with MDC, availability to massive weapons and all the carnage that comes with it, you get smash-fests. If you don't play it with MDC, or seriously limit the availability of MDC, then you're going against a core idea set out by the game (as described by those pages of MD weapons in the MB). You're not playing Rifts, you're playing Nekira-Rifts (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

no. MDC has full availibilty on both sides. guess what?

we just don't USE it because we CHOOSE not to.

sure, a Naruni Plasma Catrige pistols are in our holsters at all times, but we dont' use them to solve everything.

The Formless One wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:no. MDC has full availibilty on both sides. guess what?

we just don't USE it because we CHOOSE not to.

sure, a Naruni Plasma Catrige pistols are in our holsters at all times, but we dont' use them to solve everything.

Ah, but again: Doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Assuming everything goes well for the most part where you don't grab that plasma revolver, you have to remember that the second you do, you're not firing a pistol at someone. You're firing a LAW at them.

Things don't immediately start at slugfest, but they escalate within 15 seconds in Rifts that way real quick. Seriously, you hit someone with an MD weapon out of armor and they're dead. Dead!

That's when the GB pilot gets in his armor, the mage ducks and starts casting or the mind melter begins screwing with everyone's head.

Thus, Super Brawlfest '04.

If you play your characters as the types who maintain their absolute cool at all times, you're not playing in a manner that I'd generally consider accurate (YMMV).

Personally, I'm a very mellow fella. However, it doesn't take too long to get me riled up when someone starts pushing me around or takes a swing at me. Doesn't mean I'm about to cap someone or anything (not that I can, I'm Canadian! ) but it does mean that innate violet reaction is there. Much less if someone just tried to liquify my best friend.

It's a pretty simple idea to follow. Tons of guns, all giga-powerful (even on the side-arm level), tons of mecha, tons of attack spells and powers. This doesn't make for a politically focused game right out of the book.

Thus Rifts = Super Brawlfest. Nekira-Rifts (or Formless-Rifts, DLDC-Rifts, Theur-Rifts, Doom-Rifts, etc etc) = Not.

wrong.

The Formless One-Rifts=Superbrawl fest
Rifts=Nekira

sorry, you're just wrong. that's mearly your style of play.

Okay Formless One, This is the last straw because you're making me agree with NEKIRA freakin' SUNDANCE.

Megadamage doesn't make the game more condusive to hack and slash gaming unless the GM wants it to.
In the first year of Rifts my group played, back when it first came out, only one character lived long enough to make it past 2nd level and that was a vagabond who had the sense to run and hide most of the time.

Slowly we learned that this was NOT D&D, that we had to use strategy and keep our cool a lot or we'd be toast. Even the party Bots, Borgs, Glitterboys and Dragons.

Unlike D&D and other hack & slash games, in Rifts:
-a single hit will kill you dead if you don't have any armor on.
-The few healing spells in Rifts do little to no good because you're in perfect health until your armor goes, then you're just dead.
So no "let's kill these demons, then heal up before we take the dragon" crap. Your armor gets damaged, you're pretty screwed until you make it to the next high-tech city where you hope you have enough cash for repairs.
-The accuracy level of guns is high, especially with simultaneous attacks, so there is little to no chance of getting through a battle unscathed.
-The cost of armor repair is so high that even an easy victory is often worth thinking twice about:

Take for example a Glitterboy pilot vs. a standard bandit....

"Let's see, " The GB thinks for a minute and makes his Basic Math roll.
"This guy is wearing stolen heavy deadboy armor (80 MDC) so if I draw on him it might take two shots from my boom gun before I obliterate him. If he's faster on the draw than me, he might get two shots off with his L-20 pulse rifle (average of 21 MD per burst, drop it to 10 for laser resistance).
So, not including the cost of ammo or lucky shots on his part, that means it will probably cost me about 8,000-16,000 credits to kill this guy. And he's a local, so he's probably got some friends who shoot up my armor even more...Screw it. Not worth it right now."

And fighting random Rift Demons and such is a real hassle, because they can run down your e-clips, damage your armor, and possibly will even kill you and they usually don't even have any decent loot!



Also, if you read the first couple of rifts books you might notice that MDC is supposed to be pretty rare. The Vagabond is the closest representative of the Average Person, and they are still above average because they are an adventurer!
Most people will have little to no MD gear; adventurers are supposed to be the exception to the rule.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Okay Formless One, This is the last straw because you're making me agree with NEKIRA freakin' SUNDANCE.

I knew you'd come around eventually

FWaNK Rifts = Awesome

The Formless One wrote:Lets get one thing clear: I'm not saying Rifts is hack-and-slash. I'm saying, as it is out of the box, it's silly, over the top and about combat mashing. It's build around combat and being the baddest mofo on the block.

A lot of people see things this way, but when the game is played properly even the baddest mofo on the block will get snuffed without that much difficulty.
Much like "Bad, Bad, Leroy Brown" did.

Glitterboys are still some of the baddest boys on the block, and they can be worn down and killed rather easily.
Hatchling dragons too.

Granted that the baddest Mofo around is alot tougher these days, expecially with stuff like Deathbringer swords and crap, but they can still be taken down without too much effort by a gang of bandits or CS troops.
The sheer deadliness of the game makes it so that if you run the game properly, the party will have to think twice before blindly charging into combat.

Tyciol wrote:I can think of one way to end the player's invulnerability early, and one disadvantage a deathbringer may have against rune weapons.

I don't have FoM with me just now, but didn't the sword have something like 250 MDC? Missles are our friends.

Sure but it has to be TARGETED by the attacks meant to destroy it. You can't just launch missiles down-range and vape a magical snickersnee all easy-like. Sorry, but they DO have that kind of "protection" written for them in the rules, probably to prevent instant destruction by such things. It's not like they're exactly common, so the reason is easily understood.

Groth One-Eye wrote:

Therumancer wrote: All told it depends on the character. That information is missing from what your posting.

Well like I said the charcter is a fourteen-day-old Dragon Hatchling (Ice Dragon,) and as far as I can tell in game it's pretty much: Hey, I found this stuff by my egg when I hached, is it any good? The player hasn't played Rifts before, so I'm fairly certain the GM was responsible for this equipment selection. It's just a little frustrating since we had to coax the GM into letting us buy DPU rounds, but then we turn around an he's handing out freakin' uber swords. Seems to me that the supernatural creature with regeneration can take care of itself, why not give the SDC guys a boon instead?

a 14 days old dragon hatchling with that kind of sword? what kind of story does the player have for such a possession? most people who *do* have that kind of stuff are likely able to send a 1st level hatchling packing with a sore Arsch rather than the dragon being strong enough to rob them ... Maybe he found it in the shards of his egg?

Or is your GM smoking stuff of dubious legality?

Comments on early notes.
a) it is not made in Dweomer, but in Stormspire (though I'll readily believe that Dweomer bought a number to equip it's champions... say, a half dozen...

b) unless your mystic knight is a rahu man or other 4 armed species, how do you combine use of the draining blade with the huge Beidenhänder or claymore type that the deathsword is?

What is the general alignment of the other characters? Cause if their evil, or at least selfish then waste the dragon and take the swords for yourselves.

Aerv wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Death Bringer usually a huge two handed weapon of pole arm? If that is the case, then how can you use it in conjuntion with a draining blade? I may have misinterpreted the statement, and you may not have intended them to be used as paired weapons. Is it possible to have a death bringer as a one handed weapon?

Superhuman strength would allow a character, namely my Mystic Knight, to weild the blade one-handed. Along with a much lighter, and easier to weild draining blade in the off hand.

honestly Aerv... the sword may be featherlight and your character strong as the Hulk... it doesn't change the fact that this weapon is unbalanced as hell and unfit for one handed use by human sized characters (or is your mystic knight some sort of giant?)

Groth, in your post about equipment... you quoted 3 items that are not usually found together (vibro katana from Japan, railgun from Russia, and armor from the Amazon) ... I'm assuming that you did your character with that... if so, just where did he do his shopping? These 3 areas have virtually no contact with each other, nor do they engage in much trade out of a very local range... so seeing the 3 together (beside in compendia like the GMG and BoM, which still usually mention the pices' origins) feels passing strange... especially the armor, as you must go to a swamp area with the biomancer and subject yourself to the creation ritual... a little more involved than just picking up a pice of equipment in a shop.

ROFLMAO

You got it right on the head Temporal mage... the dragon got all the goodies because the player gives sexual favors to the GM ...


Why is it that I remember a number of games that got bad because the GM's spouse was a player, but could not name a case where this happened but the game stayed ok?

svartalf wrote:ROFLMAO

You got it right on the head Temporal mage... the dragon got all the goodies because the player gives sexual favors to the GM ...


Why is it that I remember a number of games that got bad because the GM's spouse was a player, but could not name a case where this happened but the game stayed ok?

I love being right!! Thanks!



Hey Septicrazor....I read your quote.....never heard of a ricochet huh?

I see that... now I'm wondering just what kind of group this is, and why Groth did not know/guess it would be a MunchFest...