When the CS falls...

[The Galactus Kid]

I've noticed alot of comments on the forums about various groups attacking the CS hoping for it's demise. Looking at the situation from a my perspective, I would see the fall of the CS as the fall of mankind on earth. Sure, there is Triax and the Geofront, but they have their own problems to worry about. If the CS falls in North America, the Spugorth are going to come in, the Vampires might come in, and it would be chaos. North America would effectively collapse, and leave Triax without an ally. They, in turn, would fall also. This is just my opinion of what I think would happen. What do you think?

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

I think you're smoking crack. There's no way the fall of one nation could spell the demise of human life on earth. Most of the other human nations have been operating independantly of the CS for a very long time. Hell, most haven't even heard of the CS.
As for North America itself, the fall of the CS would cause a major shift in the poles of dominance, mainly because the CS' allies would exhaust their own resources coming to their aid. Anyone attacking the CS would have to contend with Free Quebec, the Northern Gun, Whykin, Ishpeming; not to mention others who would gladly keep the CS around instead of kowtowing to some sort of Kingdom of Supernatural Evil or Alien Intelligence. Against an invasion from Atlantis, Mexico, or some other world, every faction in North America would band together to help the CS (except perhaps the Federation of Magic).

[Riftmaker]

Id say that if the CS fell Free Quebec Lazlo, and Psycape are the only other " Powers " in north america with a chance.

FQ being a human supremacist nation would probly try to gather what was left of the CS and try to hold on to at least part of exsisting empire, but considering their views on Psionics and mutants they'd probly leave LoneStar out in the cold.

Psycape is supposed to be what keep the vampires from spreading out of mexico during the dark ages, but I don;t know if they can hold of the vamps and deal with the Pacos empire and the Federation of MAgic all at once.

Lazlo and New Lazlo could be the deciding factor here as an Alliance with Psycape and these to cities might be able able to hold things together but they would need to make at least some ind of Peace with FQ theirs no way that they can fight every one at once.

AS mentioned above atlantis is a factor here, but only if things get very bad. The ruler of Atlantis ( do not ask me to spell his name) does not want to rule rifts earth the books make it clear he thinks it impossible to hold the planet with so many other powers vying for it. The only reason I think they'd make a pay for america is if the vampires are in a position to take it them selves. Vampires and splogorth are old enemies.

Just to sum things up the fall of the CS would mean open war across NA and quite passable the end of humanity in that part of the world.

[Dr. Doom III]

I think if the CS fell it would be a bad thing. They're the only ones with the firepower and the man power to make dents in the serious problem. The Xiticix.

Dunscon is to divided, Lazlo and the rest don't have the firepower. Now that Tolkeen has fallen, the Xiticix have noticed and are starting to move south virtually unchecked. 2 million deaths a year compared to a birthrate of 3 million. It's simple numbers. They have more.

The Xiticix can afford a war of attrition. Whats a million deaths when you have 10 times that at your disposal.

But thats me

Splyncryth can wipe the Xiticix out any time he wants to.

[LunarYoma]

I've noticed alot of comments on the forums about various groups attacking the CS hoping for it's demise. Looking at the situation from a my perspective, I would see the fall of the CS as the fall of mankind on earth. Sure, there is Triax and the Geofront, but they have their own problems to worry about. If the CS falls in North America, the Spugorth are going to come in, the Vampires might come in, and it would be chaos. North America would effectively collapse, and leave Triax without an ally. They, in turn, would fall also. This is just my opinion of what I think would happen. What do you think?

CS falling would be a good thing. It would give A.R.C.H.I.E. a chance to take a sweeping move to gain control of large parts of north america.

[grandmaster z0b]

The Fall of the CS?
*z0b does happy dance*
I would rather the destruction and chaos left in the vacuum.

[Vrykolas2k]

The CS falling wouldn't spell the absolute doom of humans on NA... though it would be detrimental. Still, if they were a little less... extreme, they would have less to worry about.

[glitterboy2098]

XI also notes that Lazlo, not the CS, takes down the Xiticix, something flatly contradicted by Aftermath. Both SOT and Aftermath were written AFTER XI, so essentially KS blew off the writier and a book already in print less than a year--XI is the Highlander 2 of Rifts books, which is a shame because it's actually pretty good.

actually, it presents the lazlo, CS, and atlantis plans for destroying the Xiticix, and states that none of the 3 have reached anything beyond the planning stages, although the lazlo one is closest to being implimented. and it states that none of the 3 is likely to be able to pull it off alone, at best they can push back the Xiticix to the territory they had a decade before.(and of course working together is out of the question )

with the SoT, lazlo likely put it's plans on hold, as not to antagonise the CS (that many troops waving the lazlo flag is likely to draw CS fire.), and wait to see what the CS does. likely lazlo would wait until the CS moves on the hivelands, then strike farther north, drawing bug troops away from the CS armies. while the Cs would never willingly work with lazlo, lazlo would work to aid the coalition against the common enemy, even if it ran the risk of drawing the nation into war with the CS later. (personally, i think the CS would publiclly ignore it, and privately celebrate because it makes the job easier, and weakens their enimies.)

[Saitou Hajime]

The best thing that could happen for North America would be if there was a Coup in the CS that rid the emperor and his sone and replaced him with a more level head pragmatic leader. anything less will doom the CS, after the reign of Josph the second, there is little chance of the CS holding together un less the leadership is really good.

[Saitou Hajime]

well Rifts real test the Limites of Humanty is either Evil or Stupid. there are so many puppets kicking around that you can never really tell who is doing what?

[Sureshot]

Hate to disagree with you silverlb the only reason the CS is because no matter what KS was going to make them win. Let's face it who in his right mind leaves his main defences unguarded like Tolkien did? Overconfidence or no it makes no sense whatsoever . Who in his right mind would have actually believed Free quebec would join with a non-human invader to crush the CS? Finally how the hell did Gen Holmes manage to go through Xitcix territory with about 400,000 thousand troops without losing almost none even though in the Xitcix book and elsewhere they would have been attacked with everything and the kitchen sink.

Funny how people always try to downplay magic in a super magic rich world. Trust me if it was done according to the rules the Coalition should and would have lost more soldiers and equipment. At the very least some of their territories would have been much more devasted. A it sits they lost a lot of troops and equipment not to mention morale but essntial got a large slap on the wrist.

[Vrykolas2k]

POOF!! Forget everything in the Xiticix Invasion book.
POOF!! CS soldiers don't look out for eachother. Or themselves.
POOF!! The Dragon Kings leave their homes to human cockroaches.
Sigh...
I agree the CS should have won, but I think their losses should have been much greater, and General Holmes' force would have been much smaller and very war-weary.

[Sureshot]

Hate to disagree with you silverlb the only reason the CS is because no matter what KS was going to make them win. Let's face it who in his right mind leaves his main defences unguarded like Tolkien did?

- Someone who knows without a doubt that an army that large would be killed by the Xiticix. Someone like you.

And i repeat that should have never happened. it only happened because KS was going to make the CS win no matter what. No one leaves their primary defence system unguarded no one. Not unless they are using the Hoth book of rebel tactics

Who in his right mind would have actually believed Free quebec would join with a non-human invader to crush the CS?.

Noone in their right mind, but someone desperate for a win might try anything.

Desperate yes. Lost their commen sense and had a major drop in I.Q. no. I could see them teaming up with Atlantis or F.O.M. never Free Quebec.

Finally how the hell did Gen Holmes manage to go through Xitcix territory with about 400,000 thousand troops without losing almost none even though in the Xitcix book and elsewhere they would have been attacked with everything and the kitchen sink.

- They were attacked with everything, but they did not retaliate. They lost a quarter of their soldiers! They went in with 400k and came out with 308k, (Final Siege p. 13). There comes a time when even something as inhuman as the Xiticix realize that a large group who will allow themselves to be slaughtered is obviously not a threat to their land.

Funny how people always try to downplay magic in a super magic rich world. Trust me if it was done according to the rules the Coalition should and would have lost more soldiers and equipment. At the very least some of their territories would have been much more devasted. A it sits they lost a lot of troops and equipment not to mention morale but essntial got a large slap on the wrist.

- I wouldn't call 405k casualties and 1.4 mil wounded a slap on the wrist. Nor would I call the "defeat" of Tolkeen a complete victory. It's a whole lot more like the US occupation of Iraq. The freedom fighters and rampaging monsters & undead will not make this anything close to inhabitable much less a safe jaunt anytime soon.
I remember reading somewhere about a blight traveling through Iowa destroying large crops. I wish I could point out where I read this, but it sounds an awful lot like some high-powered mage casted Blight of Ages from the Book of Ten or some other equally horrible spell. There's one of their territories getting attacked for you. Here's another reason why more did not get destroyed ... Tolkeen was on the defensive, the idea was to repel them not destroy them. The Sorcerer's Revenge was the closest thing to an offensive. And unless you've got numbers like the CS, a kingdom cannot spread out further than that or they will leave their back door even more wide open. They just didn't have the capabilities to launch an offensive (too many resources on big tank constructions, and not small mobile units).
I knew people would be upset when they won (and yes I predicted it based on their capabilities not on some personal knowledge of KS motivations), in some ways I am too ... but it was truly inevitable.

According the Xiticix Invasion book it does not matter if they retailate or not. They see or sense a force larger than a certain amount they swarm and destroy the invader. Unless or course you want to ignore what's wriiten in that book.

With all the mages all the mages and spells at their disposal the best they could do is only cast Blight of ages. Sorry but they should have been hit with much worse. Compared to Tolkien being razed to the ground it was a slap in the wrist.

As for the CS numbers no way do they have that many let alone ther industrial base to feed them. Unless of course Bradford has developed a version of D-Bee green that the troops can eat. Poof All of sudden the CS has all this equipment just lying around in storage for 3 million troops sorry I don't believe that. Look at the territory they control. It can't support it.

I am not upset that Tolkien lost. We all knew it was going to happen. We were expecting a big battle between the CS and Tolkien with a bruised and hurt CS the winner. Not a series of impossible, improbable and frankly illogical course of events which ignored things that were established in previous books and rules. an example all of sudden mages can't wear metal armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

[quote="silverlb]
Xiticix came out after tolkeen wars
[quote]

I certainly don't remember it that way.
What are your sources for that?

[grandmaster z0b]

This kind of argument will never be finished.
I think that Palladium Books should make a parallel universe where Tolkeen won or at least pushed the CS back so that both sides can be happy.

[Vrykolas2k]

[quote="silverlb]
Xiticix came out after tolkeen wars

I certainly don't remember it that way.
What are your sources for that?

Uh, ya, what Killer said...

As for the second POOF, I was in the army and if some CO tried to give us the {unlawful} order to not retaliate, he'd be in a world of drek. The right to self-defense is never denied. Now I realize the CS and the US armies are in different time periods, but still, soldiers would defend eachother and themselves. Holmes, provided he lived, wouldn't have had many soldiers left when the xiticix were through, numbers and lots of MDC would make the fight one-sided in a lot of ways. Granted I'm sure he's the greatest general of his time {after Kashbrook}, but the Hivelands would have chewed him up and spat him out. Maybe. More likely made him grub-goop.

[Sureshot]

And the funny part is that there aer currently 2 arguments I disagree with, and they both tend to come from the same people

1. Mages suck in combat. They need a power up, since they can't stand up against a grunt.

2. Tolkeen's power is awesome. They should have stomped the CS.

1. Yes they do at least imo kid with a bag of rocks is a good example.

2. It's not so much that they should have stomped the CS. It's that the CS got a scratch as compared to what happened to Tolkien. I wanted Tolkien go out with a bang not a whimper. The way it was done just was poor imo.

[Vrykolas2k]

And the funny part is that there aer currently 2 arguments I disagree with, and they both tend to come from the same people

1. Mages suck in combat. They need a power up, since they can't stand up against a grunt.

2. Tolkeen's power is awesome. They should have stomped the CS.

Magi are a little weak and should be balanced in some ways so they have as much chance as certain other OCCs. That said, under certain conditions they are more powerful than most. Seems like there could be a better "middle ground"; but then I say that about aspects of every rpg I've ever played...

I don't think Tolkeen should haved STOMPED the CS, but I DO think the CS losses should have been higher, and there should have been an attack on one of the CS cities when the army pulled back... enough to give the CS pause or at least something to think about in continuing the war.